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Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
#5251460
08/13/14 10:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 188
shightower
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 188 |
In another post there has been a discussion on weather a buck pictured is the one from the past years. Up until this year the buck has expressed the crab claw gene.
I would like to get some opinions on this issue. I do believe that the environment can effect the EXPRESSED genetic potential. Is there or has there been "enough" of a change in the environment to change an animals genetic potential? I'm assuming its a traditional low fence, all has remained the same. Except for the weather???? In my opinion expressing the crab claw gene would be due to that animal reaching its potential. It's at its max!!!! Without it would be a reduction in growth, right?? We may not want the crab claw but to say that a deer has reached its full potential due to it not being there is questionable.
Last edited by shightower; 08/14/14 03:39 PM.
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251474
08/13/14 10:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
That deer still has a "crab claw" IMO, it is just bigger this year. There is nothing to say that a "crab claw" will always be a small point. These trait is very prevalent where I hunt and we have seen them in wet and dry conditions alike.
I am not sure I understand that by expressing the crab claw gene, the animal has reached its max potential though. The crab claw on that particular deer is its G4. It still has a G4, that is larger than what it has shown in previous years, growing to a point that some no longer call it a crab claw. It hasn't reduced growth, it has increased it...so I would say it is closer to reaching its max potential than before...
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251483
08/13/14 10:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251492
08/13/14 10:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases. But most that show the crab claw genetic are going to have a crab claw, I won't say there aren't exceptions, but I wouldn't say they are very prevalent.
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251505
08/13/14 10:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
I wouldn;t worry about a crab claw..just extra inches and opportunity for more frame. Last one I shot had a crab claw the year before..it was about 2" IIRC, the following year that was 10" and was trying to have another one form that was 1".
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: txshntr]
#5251506
08/13/14 10:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases. But most that show the crab claw genetic are going to have a crab claw, I won't say there aren't exceptions, but I wouldn't say they are very prevalent. A lot of people will call front tines that angle forward along the beam a crabclaw. It can be a 1" to 10" crabclaw over time. I have some old 35mm pics of an 8 pointer that scored 159" gross with crabclaw G3's that are just under 10"s long. The have the look of a crabclaw and angle forward. They start back very close to the G2 in the normal position of a G3. They just angle forward and always did. On the same ranch we had 5x5 genetics that the mainbeams looked like the buck ran into a wall in velvet. The turned inward at the G3 and MB tips would be very close together. The G4's had a crabclaw look. Some got to be 5" long crabclaw G4s and laid along the beam.
Last edited by stxranchman; 08/13/14 10:24 PM.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251509
08/13/14 10:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I think some bucks get more of a "lobster claw" over time when they started out with a "crabclaw"
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251511
08/13/14 10:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases. But most that show the crab claw genetic are going to have a crab claw, I won't say there aren't exceptions, but I wouldn't say they are very prevalent. A lot of people will call front tines that angle forward along the beam a crabclaw. It can be a 1" to 10" crabclaw over time. I have some old 35mm pics of an 8 pointer that scored 159" gross with crabclaw G3's that are just under 10"s long. The have the look of a crabclaw and angle forward. They start back very close to the G2 in the normal position of a G3. They just angle forward and always did. On the same ranch we had 5x5 genetics that the mainbeams looked like the buck ran into a wall in velvet. The G4's had a crabclaw look. Some got to be 5" long crabclaw G4s and laid along the beam. I remember one being that young buck that was a stud of a yearling
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251516
08/13/14 10:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251519
08/13/14 10:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
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Posts: 44,461 |
I think some bucks get more of a "lobster claw" over time when they started out with a "crabclaw" The big 8 I obsessed over grew his first one (to my knowledge over a 4yr period) one at 9+yo.
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251523
08/13/14 10:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics. I know I do. Just because the points lay forward, I don't call them crab claws. Crab claws start out toward the end of the main beam and there isn't room for them to get much longer.
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251525
08/13/14 10:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
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I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics. I know you have pics of this one, last I remember he was a giant 3yo typical with those flat lying 4s or 5s.
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: txshntr]
#5251532
08/13/14 10:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics. I know I do. Just because the points lay forward, I don't call them crab claws. Crab claws start out toward the end of the main beam and there isn't room for them to get much longer. Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: rifleman]
#5251544
08/13/14 10:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics. I know you have pics of this one, last I remember he was a giant 3yo typical with those flat lying 4s or 5s. Didn't see either of these turning into much...
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251555
08/13/14 10:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.
6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old...
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: rifleman]
#5251558
08/13/14 10:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics. I know you have pics of this one, last I remember he was a giant 3yo typical with those flat lying 4s or 5s. This buck? At 1 then 2 Or this buck at 3?
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: txshntr]
#5251567
08/13/14 10:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.
6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old... The ranch I managed we took most bucks at 6, 7 or 8 with 7 being the preferred year. If the 8 point was 130's or so at 5 and had width/browtines/tine length we kept them. Those deer sometimes did not peak till 7 or older for some reason. Had several bucks we killed that were only an 8 at 4 or even 5 turn into mainframe 5x5 or 5x6 at 5 or 6 then get better with age. TC were a blessing back then to get history on those bucks that we never saw a lot of when hunting.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251578
08/13/14 10:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251580
08/13/14 10:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,685
txbobcat
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,685 |
Who doesn't like crab legs?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251582
08/13/14 10:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.
6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old... The ranch I managed we took most bucks at 6, 7 or 8 with 7 being the preferred year. If the 8 point was 130's or so at 5 and had width/browtines/tine length we kept them. Those deer sometimes did not peak till 7 or older for some reason. Had several bucks we killed that were only an 8 at 4 or even 5 turn into mainframe 5x5 or 5x6 at 5 or 6 then get better with age. TC were a blessing back then to get history on those bucks that we never saw a lot of when hunting. The ones that we have aged and the biologist have aged didn't have much teeth left at 7 in our area. Guess we need to relearn how to age...and watch TC better We don't see many make it to that age and the ones that do appear to be going downhill by then.
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: txbobcat]
#5251586
08/13/14 10:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
Who doesn't like crab legs? I prefer Lobster...
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: txshntr]
#5251588
08/13/14 10:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.
6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old... The ranch I managed we took most bucks at 6, 7 or 8 with 7 being the preferred year. If the 8 point was 130's or so at 5 and had width/browtines/tine length we kept them. Those deer sometimes did not peak till 7 or older for some reason. Had several bucks we killed that were only an 8 at 4 or even 5 turn into mainframe 5x5 or 5x6 at 5 or 6 then get better with age. TC were a blessing back then to get history on those bucks that we never saw a lot of when hunting. The ones that we have aged and the biologist have aged didn't have much teeth left at 7 in our area. Guess we need to relearn how to age...and watch TC better We don't see many make it to that age and the ones that do appear to be going downhill by then. That is the difference in food plots and protein feeders
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: stxranchman]
#5251591
08/13/14 10:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,886 |
That is the difference in food plots and protein feeders So protein is going to turn my crab claws into lobster claws?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: shightower]
#5251602
08/13/14 11:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....
[Re: txshntr]
#5251612
08/13/14 11:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
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Posts: 44,461 |
That is the difference in food plots and protein feeders So protein is going to turn my crab claws into lobster claws? No, cause ours grow lobster claws and I've still yet to get a pic of a deer at the protein feeder.
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