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Mar 25th, 2012
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Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... #5251460 08/13/14 10:00 PM
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In another post there has been a discussion on weather a buck pictured is the one from the past years. Up until this year the buck has expressed the crab claw gene.

I would like to get some opinions on this issue. I do believe that the environment can effect the EXPRESSED genetic potential.
Is there or has there been "enough" of a change in the environment to change an animals genetic potential? I'm assuming its a traditional low fence, all has remained the same. Except for the weather????
In my opinion expressing the crab claw gene would be due to that animal reaching its potential. It's at its max!!!! Without it would be a reduction in growth, right?? We may not want the crab claw but to say that a deer has reached its full potential due to it not being there is questionable.

Last edited by shightower; 08/14/14 03:39 PM.
Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251474 08/13/14 10:06 PM
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That deer still has a "crab claw" IMO, it is just bigger this year. There is nothing to say that a "crab claw" will always be a small point. These trait is very prevalent where I hunt and we have seen them in wet and dry conditions alike.

I am not sure I understand that by expressing the crab claw gene, the animal has reached its max potential though. The crab claw on that particular deer is its G4. It still has a G4, that is larger than what it has shown in previous years, growing to a point that some no longer call it a crab claw. It hasn't reduced growth, it has increased it...so I would say it is closer to reaching its max potential than before...


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251483 08/13/14 10:11 PM
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You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases.



Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251492 08/13/14 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases.


But most that show the crab claw genetic are going to have a crab claw, I won't say there aren't exceptions, but I wouldn't say they are very prevalent.


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251505 08/13/14 10:20 PM
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I wouldn;t worry about a crab claw..just extra inches and opportunity for more frame. Last one I shot had a crab claw the year before..it was about 2" IIRC, the following year that was 10" and was trying to have another one form that was 1".

Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: txshntr] #5251506 08/13/14 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases.


But most that show the crab claw genetic are going to have a crab claw, I won't say there aren't exceptions, but I wouldn't say they are very prevalent.

A lot of people will call front tines that angle forward along the beam a crabclaw. It can be a 1" to 10" crabclaw over time. I have some old 35mm pics of an 8 pointer that scored 159" gross with crabclaw G3's that are just under 10"s long. The have the look of a crabclaw and angle forward. They start back very close to the G2 in the normal position of a G3. They just angle forward and always did. On the same ranch we had 5x5 genetics that the mainbeams looked like the buck ran into a wall in velvet. The turned inward at the G3 and MB tips would be very close together. The G4's had a crabclaw look. Some got to be 5" long crabclaw G4s and laid along the beam.

Last edited by stxranchman; 08/13/14 10:24 PM.


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251509 08/13/14 10:23 PM
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I think some bucks get more of a "lobster claw" over time when they started out with a "crabclaw" grin



Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251511 08/13/14 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases.


But most that show the crab claw genetic are going to have a crab claw, I won't say there aren't exceptions, but I wouldn't say they are very prevalent.

A lot of people will call front tines that angle forward along the beam a crabclaw. It can be a 1" to 10" crabclaw over time. I have some old 35mm pics of an 8 pointer that scored 159" gross with crabclaw G3's that are just under 10"s long. The have the look of a crabclaw and angle forward. They start back very close to the G2 in the normal position of a G3. They just angle forward and always did. On the same ranch we had 5x5 genetics that the mainbeams looked like the buck ran into a wall in velvet. The G4's had a crabclaw look. Some got to be 5" long crabclaw G4s and laid along the beam.


I remember one being that young buck that was a stud of a yearling

Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251516 08/13/14 10:28 PM
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I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.



Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251519 08/13/14 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I think some bucks get more of a "lobster claw" over time when they started out with a "crabclaw" grin


The big 8 I obsessed over grew his first one (to my knowledge over a 4yr period) one at 9+yo.

Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251523 08/13/14 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.


I know I do. Just because the points lay forward, I don't call them crab claws. Crab claws start out toward the end of the main beam and there isn't room for them to get much longer.


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251525 08/13/14 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.


I know you have pics of this one, last I remember he was a giant 3yo typical with those flat lying 4s or 5s.

Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: txshntr] #5251532 08/13/14 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.


I know I do. Just because the points lay forward, I don't call them crab claws. Crab claws start out toward the end of the main beam and there isn't room for them to get much longer.

Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.



Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: rifleman] #5251544 08/13/14 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.


I know you have pics of this one, last I remember he was a giant 3yo typical with those flat lying 4s or 5s.


Didn't see either of these turning into much...




Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251555 08/13/14 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman

Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.


6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old...


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: rifleman] #5251558 08/13/14 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.


I know you have pics of this one, last I remember he was a giant 3yo typical with those flat lying 4s or 5s.

This buck? At 1 then 2


Or this buck at 3?



Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: txshntr] #5251567 08/13/14 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman

Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.


6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old...

The ranch I managed we took most bucks at 6, 7 or 8 with 7 being the preferred year. If the 8 point was 130's or so at 5 and had width/browtines/tine length we kept them. Those deer sometimes did not peak till 7 or older for some reason. Had several bucks we killed that were only an 8 at 4 or even 5 turn into mainframe 5x5 or 5x6 at 5 or 6 then get better with age. TC were a blessing back then to get history on those bucks that we never saw a lot of when hunting.



Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251578 08/13/14 10:50 PM
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Top one.

Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251580 08/13/14 10:51 PM
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Who doesn't like crab legs?

Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251582 08/13/14 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman

Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.


6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old...

The ranch I managed we took most bucks at 6, 7 or 8 with 7 being the preferred year. If the 8 point was 130's or so at 5 and had width/browtines/tine length we kept them. Those deer sometimes did not peak till 7 or older for some reason. Had several bucks we killed that were only an 8 at 4 or even 5 turn into mainframe 5x5 or 5x6 at 5 or 6 then get better with age. TC were a blessing back then to get history on those bucks that we never saw a lot of when hunting.


The ones that we have aged and the biologist have aged didn't have much teeth left at 7 in our area. Guess we need to relearn how to age...and watch TC better grin

We don't see many make it to that age and the ones that do appear to be going downhill by then.


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: txbobcat] #5251586 08/13/14 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: txbobcat
Who doesn't like crab legs?


I prefer Lobster...


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: txshntr] #5251588 08/13/14 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman

Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.


6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old...

The ranch I managed we took most bucks at 6, 7 or 8 with 7 being the preferred year. If the 8 point was 130's or so at 5 and had width/browtines/tine length we kept them. Those deer sometimes did not peak till 7 or older for some reason. Had several bucks we killed that were only an 8 at 4 or even 5 turn into mainframe 5x5 or 5x6 at 5 or 6 then get better with age. TC were a blessing back then to get history on those bucks that we never saw a lot of when hunting.


The ones that we have aged and the biologist have aged didn't have much teeth left at 7 in our area. Guess we need to relearn how to age...and watch TC better grin

We don't see many make it to that age and the ones that do appear to be going downhill by then.

That is the difference in food plots and protein feeders stir



Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: stxranchman] #5251591 08/13/14 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
That is the difference in food plots and protein feeders stir


So protein is going to turn my crab claws into lobster claws?


Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: shightower] #5251602 08/13/14 11:03 PM
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I think this buck in 2012 was a 7 point. Rained less than 15" that year. Buck was never seen after this TC pic. One sorta crabclaw. This buck is mature and more of the angle along the mainbeam look. I would willing to guess he was a crabclawed looking 2-3 yr old in his younger years also IMO based off what I have seen other bucks that turned out like him looked like in the past.

Then went to a 6 point. Rained 26" this year but the buck did not show up till late August on TC.


This is the 6 point I am sure from last year. This year he is now an 8 point and no crabclaws.




Re: Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc..... [Re: txshntr] #5251612 08/13/14 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: txshntr
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
That is the difference in food plots and protein feeders stir


So protein is going to turn my crab claws into lobster claws?


No, cause ours grow lobster claws and I've still yet to get a pic of a deer at the protein feeder.

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