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Thermal/ Night vision help #5239714 08/07/14 04:19 AM
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I need someone to teach me a bit here on Night vision and thermal. I have a customer we just build a custom 7.08 for that is planning on using it for nothing but hogs out to 800 yards. We were going to put a CDS scope on it from leupold then he asked me about using thermals and if there was a thermal scope with turrets that would work in day and night. or if there was an add on to a scope that would make it work as a thermal at night and then a normal scope in the day Teach me please. I have the gun side covered but all the new night time stuff is out of my expertise

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5239748 08/07/14 04:50 AM
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I've had this exact conversation with a few of my shooting buddies. One of them put a PVS 21 or 22 night vision that mounts after the scope with IR illumination. The rifle was his precision long range rig and scope could dial for elevation. The problem he had was that by the time you put the NV on it with IR illumination, his groups would open up a lot. The accuracy he had without the night vision was not there with the night vision. He still would take shots at hogs and yotes at long range at night. But he missed a lot. The PVS 14 (I think it was) that mounts between your eye and scope was even worse for accuracy.

My FLIR RS32 thermal scope is a digital image, so there's no turrets. It's all digital by settings inside the scope. I don't know how you could adjust the elevation with a thermal, and still get an accurate distance (like with a LRF) of what you are shooting at. My main complaint with my thermal is I have no concept of target depth. I can never tell how far away something is with it.

NV would be the way to go for longer range shooting at night. The PVS 22 with IR illum. mounted in front of a good scope and a precision rifle would be a good. Use the thermal for finding your targets.



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Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5239783 08/07/14 05:34 AM
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What chad said
Not thermal but night vision

Pvs22 or
Put an ATN PS28 gen 2 in front of his daytime scope

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5239921 08/07/14 12:56 PM
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Turrets or buttons, you can adjust the elevation on thermal scopes and most adjust at the pixel level and pixels are noted by the manufacturer as being X amount. For example, the Armasight Zeus 3x 640x480 is about .75" IIRC per pixel. Now, converting that to MOA without a cheat sheet would be beyond me in a time-sensitive situation. However, elevation can be adjusted accurately.

The IR Hunter has turrets to make such adjustments. They are still just electronic adjustments, but if the guy wants turrets, IR Defense put them on, in part, for this very reason. Plus, the IR Hunter has a ranging reticle as well.

As for judging distances, I don't know anybody that can just distances well enough by sight out to 800 yards sufficiently for making dope drop corrections and certainly not at night. Folks doing such either use rangefinders or use landmarks of known distances from the shooter to assess distance. As such, the inability to judge distance through thermal (and to a lesser extent through NV) goes beyond the simple lack of depth of field in the scope.


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Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5239982 08/07/14 01:27 PM
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Thanks guys let me make some clarification that may help. I am setting up the gun for the guy to shoot out to 800 off a bench on his porch. He was wanting a scope that could do day and night. From what I am hearing that is no not possible? Not trying to shoot hogs at 800 at night although would attempt it if the opportunity arose. I did not know if there was something that fixed to the scope bell that allowed you to use your normal scope but see at night. sounds like the adjustments are digital in these type of scopes and really only made for closer distances?

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5239985 08/07/14 01:29 PM
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Correction, looking like what Chad recommended is the way to go. Any good places to buy the PVS 22 with IR illum. or at least get pricing?

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5240074 08/07/14 02:23 PM
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HF -

The weapon you are putting together has a special purpose with regards to night capability.

I'd recommend contacting BearClaw or TNVC or another NV vendor to describe the project goals and best way to achieve them.

With their guidance and your handy work it ought to be a fine product in the end!

You'll certainly need a Clip on NV device in front of the day scope but how it will be mounted on a bolt rifle in perfect optical alignment to the day optic AND what the inherent accuracy loss would be at those distances is best left to the experts in NV to give you advice on.

There is a limit to magnification that you can achieve on the day optic looking through a clip on device as well, typically that is 6 - 8x magnification so from a capability standpoint, under perfect circumstances, is the gun's owner going to be up to task of repeatedly hitting a target at 800 yards at these magnifications?

Tough BUT fun project - stay safe

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5240080 08/07/14 02:26 PM
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Talk to Tyler...Bearclaw here on the forum.. He may have other options as well. www.ultimatenightvision.com

I don't know of any commercially available thermal scopes that would be proper for 800 yards. 5X native mag is the highest they go I think.

As for NV, you will need a strong illuminator to get out that far. The PVS 22 works best around 6-8X (depending on your glass and light)if that is good enough for you at 800 yards. With the right scope it will be "usable" up to around 12X. The type and quality of PVS 22 makes a difference also.

If you want more range, try a PVS 27...

I do think you'll have issues ranging...depth perception being among the issues...

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5240606 08/07/14 07:13 PM
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What's the 7.08 recoil compare to a .308? There is a new Night Optics Clip-On unit called the Krystal 950L with a 34mm ocular and its supposed to be good up to 25x. I have one with a Bushnell HDMR 34mm tubed 3.5x21 50mm arriving today to test that claim. It's got the same glass at the D-750(awesome)and an L-3 tube and is rated to a 3.08. 2 year warranty. Much more cost effective than a PVS-27. http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/Night-Optics-Krystal-950L-Clip-On-p/ns-9503gml.htm

As far as a thermal clip-on good to 800 yards? There is not a unit currently available to civilians that I would consider good at 800 yards...

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5241458 08/08/14 02:48 AM
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The NV does not have to be good to 800 doubt will be taking those shots at night.. I would like too smile. He has essentially a huge field that his house overlooks. In the mornings and evenings could make those shots easy. I am figuring at night would be 2-300 yards. But he wants to have something he can basically hook on to his day setup instead of spotlights so he does not need 3 hands to work all the equipment. 7.08 recoil is little tamer than 308 but pretty close.

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5242990 08/08/14 10:44 PM
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Hey Derrick -

Ran into this post today, similar question that you posed here so cross-posted for you Sir.

Pictures are part of the thread which demonstrate high magnification effect on image brightness.

http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hid...experience.html

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5244989 08/10/14 01:01 PM
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Just run you 7 light poles out there! Lol Place them 100 yards apart and have a flip switch on the porch to control them. Now you have distance point of references and have enough light to shoot by! May have to put a feeder out there or some hog bait to get them to come to the lighted area, but worth a shot! Lol

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: DAN-O] #5245083 08/10/14 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: DAN-O
Just run you 7 light poles out there! Lol Place them 100 yards apart and have a flip switch on the porch to control them. Now you have distance point of references and have enough light to shoot by! May have to put a feeder out there or some hog bait to get them to come to the lighted area, but worth a shot! Lol


...You'd probably have drug runners land thinking that you've marked them a landing spot with 800 yards of light sticks out there.

Then you'd have an awkward situation on hand

lol35

Last edited by HuntTXhogs; 08/10/14 02:10 PM.
Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: Bearclaw] #5249059 08/12/14 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bearclaw
What's the 7.08 recoil compare to a .308? There is a new Night Optics Clip-On unit called the Krystal 950L with a 34mm ocular and its supposed to be good up to 25x. I have one with a Bushnell HDMR 34mm tubed 3.5x21 50mm arriving today to test that claim. It's got the same glass at the D-750(awesome)and an L-3 tube and is rated to a 3.08. 2 year warranty. Much more cost effective than a PVS-27. http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/Night-Optics-Krystal-950L-Clip-On-p/ns-9503gml.htm

As far as a thermal clip-on good to 800 yards? There is not a unit currently available to civilians that I would consider good at 800 yards...



I would strongly disagree here, I would consider this scope not good, but great. http://tnvc.com/shop/l3-cnvd-t3/

To the OP, yes there is options for a thermal to reach out to 800 yards that is commercially available, but very expensive. I own this T3 listed here and use it with my S&B at 10x with no issues with a .338 Lapua and also had it on a .50BMG even though the .338 is the real optic killer.

Even though this thermal will detect a human at 2400 yards+, like with all thermal, it's great for detection but not pure ID. At 800 yards, you're not going to truly ID a small hog from a small calf, or bobcat from a Yote.

In regards to the AN/PVS-27 or CNVD/LR's, these also are very long range NV Clip-on units that need the highest end day scopes to achieve the best results. These units are truly used for positive ID and I have ID'd hogs out to 700 yards at 12x-15X (TRUE MAGNIFICATION RESOLUTION RANGES) with a LDI SPIR IR Illuminator.

My suggestion is to get yourself a high end hand held thermal device and use the long range NVD clip-on's on the shooting stick. True PID and long range shooting is done in this fashion.

We have some incredible pricing on both the CNVD/LR and the AN/PVS-27's as we are major distributors for both. Please feel free to give us a call, our entire staff is made up of Vets and former LE guys. We all train in the use of NV and education is our #1 goal.

http://tnvc.com/shop/muns-anpvs-27-magnum-universal-night-sight/
http://tnvc.com/shop/cnvd-lr/



Pic of the T3

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5249133 08/12/14 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
HF -

The weapon you are putting together has a special purpose with regards to night capability.

I'd recommend contacting BearClaw or TNVC or another NV vendor to describe the project goals and best way to achieve them.

With their guidance and your handy work it ought to be a fine product in the end!

You'll certainly need a Clip on NV device in front of the day scope but how it will be mounted on a bolt rifle in perfect optical alignment to the day optic AND what the inherent accuracy loss would be at those distances is best left to the experts in NV to give you advice on.

There is a limit to magnification that you can achieve on the day optic looking through a clip on device as well, typically that is 6 - 8x magnification so from a capability standpoint, under perfect circumstances, is the gun's owner going to be up to task of repeatedly hitting a target at 800 yards at these magnifications?

Tough BUT fun project - stay safe


Thanks HuntTXhogs,

As mentioned in my about post, one particular thermal is up to the 800 yard task but PID is always the hard part with such small critters. This is why long range clip-on devices are true PID instruments with 2 of the systems I listed are good out to the 12-15x with a top end day scope.

Perfect optical alignment does not mean inherent collimation issues as any QUALITY clip-on devices take this into account and their optical light path is just about perfect. Any of the FLIR and L3 lines of clip-ons give these results... What you will see with a day scope mis-aligned with a clip-on is more image degradation. You want to keep the day optic as close as center to the clip-on, but I've used day scopes with a 1/2" deviation up/down/left right with no accuracy loss, just image degradation as I mentioned.

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5249157 08/12/14 05:02 PM
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Quote:
I would strongly disagree here, I would consider this scope not good, but great. http://tnvc.com/shop/l3-cnvd-t3/


Fine $26,000 scope, at least as far as $26,000 scopes go, LOL.


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Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: ChadTRG42] #5249173 08/12/14 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
I've had this exact conversation with a few of my shooting buddies. One of them put a PVS 21 or 22 night vision that mounts after the scope with IR illumination. The rifle was his precision long range rig and scope could dial for elevation. The problem he had was that by the time you put the NV on it with IR illumination, his groups would open up a lot. The accuracy he had without the night vision was not there with the night vision. He still would take shots at hogs and yotes at long range at night. But he missed a lot. The PVS 14 (I think it was) that mounts between your eye and scope was even worse for accuracy.

My FLIR RS32 thermal scope is a digital image, so there's no turrets. It's all digital by settings inside the scope. I don't know how you could adjust the elevation with a thermal, and still get an accurate distance (like with a LRF) of what you are shooting at. My main complaint with my thermal is I have no concept of target depth. I can never tell how far away something is with it.

NV would be the way to go for longer range shooting at night. The PVS 22 with IR illum. mounted in front of a good scope and a precision rifle would be a good. Use the thermal for finding your targets.


Hi Chad,

The PVS-21 you mentioned is this rascal. http://tnvc.com/shop/anpvs-21-lpnvg/. Sometimes I wish I could have a clip-on with the clear FOV the 21 offers! smile

Vic

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: Double Naught Spy] #5249184 08/12/14 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Double Naught Spy
Quote:
I would strongly disagree here, I would consider this scope not good, but great. http://tnvc.com/shop/l3-cnvd-t3/


Fine $26,000 scope, at least as far as $26,000 scopes go, LOL.


Indeed fine.., the OP asked for LONG range options, nor did he give a price point, but the claim was "As far as a thermal clip-on good to 800 yards? There is not a unit currently available to civilians that I would consider good at 800 yards..." This one is available to civilians and beats down most others. smile We actually sell quite a number of CNVD/T3's T3's to serious long range Texas hunters every year. They also like the idea they do not have to pay Texas sales tax on a 26K scope. wink

Ones that currently are not available to civies but hope soon one day are that will give facial ID at 800 yards and further.
http://gs.flir.com/surveillance-products/thermosight/thermosight-hiss (This one will do facial ID at 1000 yards +)

...And this one very soon we hear will be available for civilians
http://flircms.com/uploadedFiles/GS/datasheets/SS_LTR_ADUNS.pdf This unit gives the TRUE best of both NV and thermal worlds. smile

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: HorizonFirearms] #5249463 08/12/14 07:41 PM
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I know, but you seemed to have forgotten to mention the price. Just trying to help.


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Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: TNVC-Victor] #5249627 08/12/14 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: TNVC-Victor
Originally Posted By: Bearclaw
What's the 7.08 recoil compare to a .308? There is a new Night Optics Clip-On unit called the Krystal 950L with a 34mm ocular and its supposed to be good up to 25x. I have one with a Bushnell HDMR 34mm tubed 3.5x21 50mm arriving today to test that claim. It's got the same glass at the D-750(awesome)and an L-3 tube and is rated to a 3.08. 2 year warranty. Much more cost effective than a PVS-27. http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/Night-Optics-Krystal-950L-Clip-On-p/ns-9503gml.htm

As far as a thermal clip-on good to 800 yards? There is not a unit currently available to civilians that I would consider good at 800 yards...



I would strongly disagree here, I would consider this scope not good, but great. http://tnvc.com/shop/l3-cnvd-t3/

To the OP, yes there is options for a thermal to reach out to 800 yards that is commercially available, but very expensive. I own this T3 listed here and use it with my S&B at 10x with no issues with a .338 Lapua and also had it on a .50BMG even though the .338 is the real optic killer.

Even though this thermal will detect a human at 2400 yards+, like with all thermal, it's great for detection but not pure ID. At 800 yards, you're not going to truly ID a small hog from a small calf, or bobcat from a Yote.

In regards to the AN/PVS-27 or CNVD/LR's, these also are very long range NV Clip-on units that need the highest end day scopes to achieve the best results. These units are truly used for positive ID and I have ID'd hogs out to 700 yards at 12x-15X (TRUE MAGNIFICATION RESOLUTION RANGES) with a LDI SPIR IR Illuminator.

My suggestion is to get yourself a high end hand held thermal device and use the long range NVD clip-on's on the shooting stick. True PID and long range shooting is done in this fashion.

We have some incredible pricing on both the CNVD/LR and the AN/PVS-27's as we are major distributors for both. Please feel free to give us a call, our entire staff is made up of Vets and former LE guys. We all train in the use of NV and education is our #1 goal.

http://tnvc.com/shop/muns-anpvs-27-magnum-universal-night-sight/
http://tnvc.com/shop/cnvd-lr/



Pic of the T3


I don't call that good. I definately don't call that great.

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: Bearclaw] #5249730 08/12/14 10:18 PM
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When you actually use and train with one (?)...you can call it what you like. If you have truly used and trained with a T3 you would not make a statement like you did... They're are MANY who use the T3 and call it the best long range unit out there period for it's purposes with the new T-75 a close 2nd. http://tnvc.com/shop/flir-t75-advanced-combat-thermal-sight-long-range/ Not many devices can get 10-12x with their day scope and thermal without much pixelation, not much at all. Our Military folks also call this a GREAT system for what it does and closest to a cooled array system, it's the best out there.

Not sure, but you do not even sell these two longest range thermal devices. We actually, test, own and train with every piece of high end NV we offer. That includes the T3 and T75 I just mentioned.


To the OP, feel free to contact us, we can educate you what really works for your long range requirements. We really use and train with all our gear.

Vic

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: Double Naught Spy] #5249794 08/12/14 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: Double Naught Spy
I know, but you seemed to have forgotten to mention the price. Just trying to help.


We, (I) know what you meant... wink

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: TNVC-Victor] #5249810 08/12/14 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: TNVC-Victor
When you actually use one Tyler, you can call it what you like. They're are MANY who use the T3 and call it the best unit out there period.


To the OP, feel free to contact us, we can educate you what really works for your long range requirements.

Vic

Originally Posted By: TNVC-Victor
When you actually use and train with one Tyler, you can call it what you like. If you have used and trained with a T3 you would not make a statement like you did... They're are MANY who use the T3 and call it the best long range unit out there period for it's purposes with the new T-75 a close 2nd. http://tnvc.com/shop/flir-t75-advanced-combat-thermal-sight-long-range/ Not many devices can get 10-12x with their day scope and thermal without much pixelation, not much at all. Our Military folks also call this a GREAT system for what it does and next to a cooled array system, it the best out there.


To the OP, feel free to contact us, we can educate you what really works for your long range requirements. We really use and train with this gear.

Vic


Originally Posted By: TNVC-Victor
When you actually use and train with one (?)...you can call it what you like. If you have truly used and trained with a T3 you would not make a statement like you did... They're are MANY who use the T3 and call it the best long range unit out there period for it's purposes with the new T-75 a close 2nd. http://tnvc.com/shop/flir-t75-advanced-combat-thermal-sight-long-range/ Not many devices can get 10-12x with their day scope and thermal without much pixelation, not much at all. Our Military folks also call this a GREAT system for what it does and closest to a cooled array system, it's the best out there.

Not sure, but you do not even sell these two longest range thermal devices. We actually, test, own and train with every piece of high end NV we offer. That includes the T3 and T75 I just mentioned.


To the OP, feel free to contact us, we can educate you what really works for your long range requirements. We really use and train with all our gear.

Vic



I'll give you some more time to get your story straight...soap Keep at it and maybe you will get one right...


OP, I'm sorry your thread got hijacked. I'll just say I would go with an NV device over a thermal at this range. Even at well over 20K, a thermal would not do what you need at 800 yards IMHO. Hope that answered your original question. Take this to PM if I can be of any further assistance. Good luck.

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: Bearclaw] #5249834 08/12/14 11:27 PM
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The story is straight and correct. You commented on something you have yet to use or not use? Have you used a T3 or a T-75? Do you know what the image looks like in these 2 units to give an opinion like you have? We have both systems and always have.

Edit to add, like above...One more thought, If you have used these devices, lets hear you're long range reviews of both. We can even start another thread and compare notes what these long range thermals produce I talked about.

Vic

Re: Thermal/ Night vision help [Re: TNVC-Victor] #5250535 08/13/14 01:20 PM
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I'll post some 800 yard 1/2 mile thermal video kills with the FLIR T-75 when I get a chance.


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