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e collar issues and basic obedience questions #5228732 07/31/14 09:23 PM
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assassinator Offline OP
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I have a 6 month old female lab, very high energy dog. E collar is a Garmin Delta collar, 18 levels of stimulation.
Background
we have been working on basic sit, here, heel, kennel commands around the house, and on the leash, and 25 foot lead in the backyard. getting very good compliance on sit and kennel. She will sit in one spot while I walk large circles around her, will sit while I throw bumpers and wait to be released.Pretty good on here, sometimes she wants to keep going her own way. not so great on heel or just walking on leash in public. My wife and kids wanted to walk her every day as a puppy. She got in the habit of pulling. We tried using a choke chain type collar, and the dog would pull just as hard and choke herself the entire time. at 5 months and 40 pounds my wife came back from a walk crying, and said the dog was out of control and she no longer wanted to walk her. I bought a sprenger pinch type collar, and her on leash manners instantly improved.

I have a school, park, and overgrown lot by me where we throw bumpers and a dove dummy. She brings them to my hand most of the time if there are no distractions. If however some random person walks by she will immediately stop everything and chase down random person, sometimes random person thinks its cute, sometimes random person is very annoyed strayge dog is trying to jump on them. I am always embarrassed apologizing trying to pull my dog off of someone. it's hard to take her anywhere to get exercise without her chasing down someone else walking thier dogs or running off to greet some stranger.

I bought the e collar for correcting known commands, hoping for on the leash type compliance. she wore the e-collar for a week before I ever tried any stimulation. I tried it on myself just to understand what the dog was feeling, put it on my arm and let my wife burn me, I got to 8, didnt want any more after that. Big differance from my arm to my fingertips. Put it on the dog, starting on one continuous and moving up until she showed a reaction. No reaction on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 finally on 11 laying in her crate, she jerked her head up and looked around. Ok 11 is her number? I have the collar tight, high on the neck. Seems kinda high to me, but what do I know?

Using level 11 we have been working on sit and she is sitting faster and sitting better for my wife. After a week or so we moved outside to play fetch off the leash, in the field by my house. After a few retreives we are having fun, there is no one in sight. I make another throw, she goes for it, and right before she picks it up, her head snaps up. She smells something, 150 yards away some women are walking a dog. She starts running full speed at them. I start hitting continous and saying sit, she is totaly ignoring me. I am upping the stimulus starting to chase her. I have the controller maxed out on 18 she is 100 yards from me and gaining on random ladies. I hit her several times on full power continuous. She charges into and across the ditch, dry creek bed, stops for a second and scratches collar with her hind leg and keeps going. Random ladies pick up thier dog and start running. I am still giving chase and hitting continous, whistling and yelling stop. She catches ladies and starts jumping on them. I finnally catch her, and try to apologize to women. They dont speak english and continue running and holding their dog. I can't believe the dog shrugged off full power continuous. I believe she was feeling something, because she sat and scratched at the collar, but never vocalized, or seemed at all botherd b it. After a few days we went to the lake to play, after making sure no one was around, I throw the bumper a few times, she is swimming out and returning great, she is in the water coming at me, then suddenly changes directions,and drops the bumper, I look over my shoulder and see two ghetto thugs appear. She is out of the water and charging at them. I am yelling, whistling, and now have collar cranked to the max on 18. Hitting continous, no reaction, runs to thugs, shakes water on them , and starts jumping on them. I make it to her, attached her leash, try to apologize. Ghetto thugs are mumbling trash talk at me the whole time. I asked if they wanted to clarify their statements one more time to my face, they declined and we went our separate ways.

Is it normal to max out the collar and have the dog ignore it? I think I have the collar on very snug. I know the collar works on me.

I don't let her jump on me, I pop her on the nose. She doesn't even try to jump on me. My mother-in-law and sister-in-law come over and the dog jumps on them, I am yelling and trying to get her to behave and they say it's okay and pet her. I say it is not ok with me, they are like whatever she's a puppy. How do I get her to stop jumping on random people, when half of the people she runs up to seem to encourage it? how do I keep her from being so interested in any random person that appears? any suggestions on what I should do next?

Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5228844 07/31/14 10:20 PM
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kindall Offline
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If you just bought that ecollar, call the place and see if you can return it, and upgrade to a better one. Garmin Deltas are just not hot enough for a lot of hunting dogs.

Your not the only one that's had a problem with that collar.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5228927 07/31/14 11:16 PM
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J.M. Brown Offline
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Make sure the collar has good contact on the labs skin. I had to put longer leads on mine and after that I didn't have any trouble out of it.

Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5229763 08/01/14 12:19 PM
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maximumintensityretriever Offline
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You have done plenty of marking and that is commendable but you have also created a lot of bad habits while doing so. Now is the time to formalize obedience. Put the lead back on her and condition the commands. I don't know if you said on the other forum if you were following a formal program or not but if you aren't then get one and follow it as well as trying to seek some experienced help.

The problem is that you have some huge misconceptions about obedience and collar conditioning. The e collar is not what is going to stop the dog in situations that you have described only a conditioned response will. There is a reason for that. When a dog is in prey mode they get tunnel vision and don't percieve outside stimuli like pain the same way. That is the reason that a protection dog will not let go even when the person is trying to beat them off, they can't feel it. Same principle here. One of the biggest things that I look for and tell my clients to look for to measure the level of conditioning the dog has to obedience commands is how well they are able to handle distractions. Your dog is failing miserably at this. This is a clear illustration that both your obedience training and collar conditioning are incomplete. The collar is not the issue although you may not have it tight enough or high enough on the neck. If you continue the way you are going the results are going to be a dog that gets hurt or a dog that has a bolting problem. Back up and teach. Do not go back out there until your dog is conditioned. I promise that using the same collar you will see a difference over the first few sessions. She may not vocalize but you will have clear indicators the message is getting through. Let us know how you progress and if you need more details.


Tony Marshall
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(903) 720-6842
Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5230733 08/01/14 10:53 PM
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Tony
While I whole heartedly agree that she needs formal training, and put back on a check cord until he has her conditioned to the commands, and is getting the correct responses.

I also stand by what I have said about the Delta collar.
I had a long talk with Steve Snell (gundogs supply) after people were concern with the high numbers they were having to use on their dogs to get a response.
He said the collars in no way matched up to the tritronic collars, they were to replace.
That they were just not hot enough for high drive dogs.
I have also heard the same thing from Ken(Willowynd Ranch/ HuntinDawg.com), and they have had customers send the collars back, and replaced them with a different collar. The customers were happy after they moved up to the better collar.
Both said that they are fine for some dogs, and pets, but just not hot enough for high drive dogs.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: maximumintensityretriever] #5230772 08/01/14 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: maximumintensityretriever
You have done plenty of marking and that is commendable but you have also created a lot of bad habits while doing so. Now is the time to formalize obedience. Put the lead back on her and condition the commands. I don't know if you said on the other forum if you were following a formal program or not but if you aren't then get one and follow it as well as trying to seek some experienced help.

The problem is that you have some huge misconceptions about obedience and collar conditioning. The e collar is not what is going to stop the dog in situations that you have described only a conditioned response will. There is a reason for that. When a dog is in prey mode they get tunnel vision and don't percieve outside stimuli like pain the same way. That is the reason that a protection dog will not let go even when the person is trying to beat them off, they can't feel it. Same principle here. One of the biggest things that I look for and tell my clients to look for to measure the level of conditioning the dog has to obedience commands is how well they are able to handle distractions. Your dog is failing miserably at this. This is a clear illustration that both your obedience training and collar conditioning are incomplete. The collar is not the issue although you may not have it tight enough or high enough on the neck. If you continue the way you are going the results are going to be a dog that gets hurt or a dog that has a bolting problem. Back up and teach. Do not go back out there until your dog is conditioned. I promise that using the same collar you will see a difference over the first few sessions. She may not vocalize but you will have clear indicators the message is getting through. Let us know how you progress and if you need more details.


I agree with this to a point-some collars are a lot better than others. However, I don't believe the dog has been properly collar conditioned, and this should happen no matter what collar is used. I would start with conditioning to "here"and "sit".

Robby

Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5231109 08/02/14 03:27 AM
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After reading the comments I decided to ask a client if I could use her brand new Garmin Delta to perform an experiment. So in the name of science I strapped that rig to my leg. In CMM mode on 18 I hit myself with a high nick. After pissing myself and forgetting who I was for 30 minutes my professional opinion is the Garmin Delta is plenty hot enough. To be fair I repeated the same process with my Pro 500. The urine stream was not as high but that could have been because I fried my kidneys on the first shot. Verdict, I would say they are the same or possibly slight winner with the Delta. My diagnosis, CC your dog and apply your collar properly.


Tony Marshall
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https://m.facebook.com/maximumintensity.retrievers
(903) 720-6842
Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5231175 08/02/14 04:36 AM
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Haha. Good ol science


Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5231472 08/02/14 03:01 PM
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I know the collar works good on me. The only thing I am not sure of is are the probes making good contact all of the time. This is a tri-tronics collar that doesnt have an additional set of longer prongs. How many people are using short prongs on thier lab? It just seems like she doesn't even feel a stimulus.

Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5231473 08/02/14 03:02 PM
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I bought a collar based off of the recommendations on gun dog supply. I only have a few days to return it or exchange it if that's what I want to do.

Last edited by assassinator; 08/02/14 03:03 PM.
Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: maximumintensityretriever] #5231495 08/02/14 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: maximumintensityretriever
After reading the comments I decided to ask a client if I could use her brand new Garmin Delta to perform an experiment. So in the name of science I strapped that rig to my leg. In CMM mode on 18 I hit myself with a high nick. After pissing myself and forgetting who I was for 30 minutes my professional opinion is the Garmin Delta is plenty hot enough. To be fair I repeated the same process with my Pro 500. The urine stream was not as high but that could have been because I fried my kidneys on the first shot. Verdict, I would say they are the same or possibly slight winner with the Delta. My diagnosis, CC your dog and apply your collar properly.


In the name of science, while being videoed, you should repeat the experiment at different distances. Say 50, 75 and 100 yards to see if there is any drop in the levels with added distance.

Just joking. grin I have never hit myself with anything higher than a 3 on my tritronics.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5231725 08/02/14 07:12 PM
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maximumintensityretriever Offline
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That's a good point. Distance could very well be the factor. I don't think the world is ready for all the obscenities I screamed through the process though. That was a first for me too but my curiosity was peaked.


Tony Marshall
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Re: e collar issues and basic obedience questions [Re: assassinator] #5231731 08/02/14 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: assassinator
I know the collar works good on me. The only thing I am not sure of is are the probes making good contact all of the time. This is a tri-tronics collar that doesnt have an additional set of longer prongs. How many people are using short prongs on thier lab? It just seems like she doesn't even feel a stimulus.

I have not actually used the Delta while training but I do have 8 of the new bark limiters which have the same short fixed probes. I have had no problem with contact. I have had three long haired dogs in the kennel since having them. A flatcoat, a golden, and a GSD and it has worked well with all of them. I personally have found that the short fixed probes cause much less irritation. I like them.


Tony Marshall
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