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Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets #5196705 07/11/14 04:19 PM
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Howdy,

I am relatively new to hunting, only been doing it for 2 years. I have been reading about the debate over using lead bullets and saw how California has made it illegal for hunting use. Other states are talking about lead bullets too. My original thought was this is just a bunch of hippie, tree huger crap and those nanny states can use all the non lead bullets they want.

However, I recently watched a short video about lead ammo vs non-lead and it got me thinking. I did not know about the potential impacts it could have on other wildlife. The price of the non-lead ammo is high, but if I could prevent an animal from being poisoned I wouldn't care about the price. Also, people could be ingesting lead fragments which can't be good. The performance of non-lead ammo looks positive and other than the price it seems easy enough to switch.

Anyway, is this a bunch of Al Gore type crap or do y'all think lead actually poses a threat to us and other animals?

Video Link

Last edited by Gone to Texas; 07/11/14 04:25 PM.

Re: Lead and Copper Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5196802 07/11/14 04:40 PM
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I don't buy it. Good ol' Owl Gore and his merry band of misfits, with their misinformation.

Personally, I can't tell you how many dove, quail, turkey, duck, geese, rabbit, squirrel, etc I've eaten throughout my lifetime where I bit down on or had to dig out a lead pellet.

I recently watched a program about the California Condor in the Grand Canyon. They found several dead, leading them to the conclusion that since it was deer season, the Condors ate the carcass remains of dead mulies and elk, thereby eating the lead bullets from the carcass and then dying.

That's quite a stretch and quite a theory if you ask me. I'd like to see the actual evidence before I'll accept that.

Now, lead shot and water fowl is different story. Most water fowl is hunted over wetlands. It stands to reason that the shot will fall into the water and leach out over time, causing increases in lead particles in the water, which is absorbed by fish, amphibians, etc. I'll give you that one.

I'm not buying the rest of it though, until I see more evidence.


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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5196911 07/11/14 05:14 PM
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peep the government is csi on me. rofl try posting again. were I grew up. started with single shot guns. learned ta make first shot count may not get a second. acracy & knowing limit of ones self, makes the difference of an animal dying from lead poisoning rofl like pappy always says: person with open mind has wider point of view up on thread. thinking the hunting with lead & lead poisoning started with duck hunting. replacing lead with steal shot. I fish & use lead weights, same thing. be interesting ta hear what the pros say. Again up like pappy always says: some times I shift my brain in ta neutral & my mind wonders popcorn flag



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Re: Lead and Copper Hunting Bullets [Re: LandPirate] #5196941 07/11/14 05:28 PM
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up straight ta the point, no beaten around the bush. its like the global warming. just cause ya got scientists saying & doing tests about ice caps melting doesn't mean they are. in terms of trophy hunters. its what they call ground shrinkage . flag



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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5196957 07/11/14 05:37 PM
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popcorn like pappy always says: what I know, is what I know. & i question that flag



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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: LandPirate] #5197140 07/11/14 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: LandPirate
I don't buy it. Good ol' Owl Gore and his merry band of misfits, with their misinformation.

Personally, I can't tell you how many dove, quail, turkey, duck, geese, rabbit, squirrel, etc I've eaten throughout my lifetime where I bit down on or had to dig out a lead pellet.

I recently watched a program about the California Condor in the Grand Canyon. They found several dead, leading them to the conclusion that since it was deer season, the Condors ate the carcass remains of dead mulies and elk, thereby eating the lead bullets from the carcass and then dying.

That's quite a stretch and quite a theory if you ask me. I'd like to see the actual evidence before I'll accept that.

Now, lead shot and water fowl is different story. Most water fowl is hunted over wetlands. It stands to reason that the shot will fall into the water and leach out over time, causing increases in lead particles in the water, which is absorbed by fish, amphibians, etc. I'll give you that one.

I'm not buying the rest of it though, until I see more evidence.


Yeah, the only evidence I have seen is from that video I watched. Some falcons had lead poisoning and they said it was because they ate the remains of the animals that were shot with lead ammo. Pretty interesting, I am shooting Barnes TSX 6mm just from a performance stand point but never thought about the environmental aspect.


Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5197202 07/11/14 08:12 PM
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Well that lead poisoning could have come from the exhaust output at a battery factory that builds batteries for the Prius too.

Lead is everywhere. Pelagic fish 100's of miles out in the ocean also contain lead. I find it difficult to believe that they too ate on hunter killed deer carcasses in the Grand Canyon.

The theory doesn't wash. They need to provide evidence.


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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: LandPirate] #5197293 07/11/14 08:46 PM
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Quit duck hunting, ya ever priced steel shot for a 16 gauge. with money I saved first year got me a nice 12 gauge single action pump rofl scared ta run the steel shot threw it though. lead will give a little more. next they'll band my lead balls from hog hunting. be some good info on this thread flag



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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: colt.45] #5197307 07/11/14 08:55 PM
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next they'll band my lead balls from hog hunting

like pappy always says: shooten steal shot threw my muzzy tis like passing a stone flag

Last edited by colt.45; 07/11/14 09:02 PM.


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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5197318 07/11/14 08:57 PM
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There is a fair amount of evidence associated with the California Condor and ingestment of lead, leading to poisoning. But that is largely based on how and what the condors eat and is really fairly specific to that particular breed of bird.

Bottom line - it is a legitimate case.

Waterflowl, however, I'm still not convinced that there was nearly the environmental impact on the bird populations that the studies said there was. There was a tremendous amount of political play involved with that change in conjunction with some economic factors.

The impetus for the water fowl switch from lead shot to steel wasn't that the lead leaches into the water supplies - it's that the birds would inject lead pellets found thinking they were the rocks they would normally ingest (held in the gizzard, helps them digest food). There were several studies done that, in my opinion anyway, really were set up to show the results that were needed to be shown concerning lead shot.

At any rate, lead shot with water fowl has been in effect for a long, long time now. It's not changing.

Lead free ammo will be coming one day, whether we like it or not. The .mil is slated to be lead free on their ammo starting in just a few years - commerical will follow suit. Like the water fowl issue, the reasonings behind that have little to do with performance or environmental, but are heavily covered in politics.

Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: schmellba99] #5197368 07/11/14 09:20 PM
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popcorn like pappy always says: a person with open mind has a wider point of view hmm, good thread. if its better for the environment up flag



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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5197820 07/12/14 01:28 AM
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I have to agree... the amount of lead deposited in the water systems or soil or made available to ingestion by wildlife from hunters pales in comparison to the other toxins and pollution that effect mother nature each day. But I'm certain that we are on a path of non-lead ammo across the board. The days of lead ammo will come to an end and I believe it may happen sooner than we may think.
As far as game having lead in the meat and harming the person eating it; I can't begin to count how many lead pellets my family has pulled out of ducks, pheasants, quail, grouse, etc... at the dinner table over the years!!! And I'm certain we didn't find all of it as we ate! I would say game animals made up well over 50% of our meals as a family growing up and still a large portion of what we all still eat to this day. We've all been fortunate in our health and I'm certain that none of us have been made sick by the ill effects of lead shot or bullets in our food. If I die because of the lead in the game I've harvested I will consider myself lucky to have harvested that many animals and I will have lived a life of hunting that I love!

Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5198105 07/12/14 10:57 AM
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I've always wondered just how much lead shot a duck or any other water bird could ingest. I don't believe that small amounts of lead shot will contaminate water. One foot of water over one acre is 27,000 gallons. Do the math.


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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Dave Davidson] #5198194 07/12/14 01:22 PM
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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5198327 07/12/14 03:28 PM
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I suspect that the majority of lead contamination is coming from airborne particulate matter that settles onto the land and water. It's then consumed by the smallest of organisms and then passes up the food chain to apex animals.

That's why you find high levels of heavy metals (lead and mercury) contained in sharks, king mackerel and other fish. It very well could also explain why waterfowl may contain heavy metals.

I'm still not buying the theory that condors are eating the lead bullets from carcasses and then dying. Most of those rounds likely blew all the way through the animal targets anyway. I could see it happening once in a while, but not as wide spread as we are being led to believe.

And especially in the desert southwest, which was so heavily targeted for mining in the last century. They were mining gold, silver, lead, mercury, plutonium, uranium and other heavy metals. The trailings from the mines lay all over the hillsides. Rain falls and washes out material into the creeks, streams, rivers and eventually the lakes and oceans.

I've seen warnings posted along creeks and streams in Colorado to not drink the water due to heavy metals and other contaminants.

These are constant sources of contamination for wildlife. Deer/elk season only last a month or two. Again, I'm not buying it simply because they said it. Show the evidence.


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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: LandPirate] #5198401 07/12/14 04:32 PM
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scratch back in the days of slinger best friend accidently shot himself, bout 35yrs ago. still carries the bullet, it pushing its way to the skin. don't know if he got shots or what ta combat lead poisoning. he's in better health than me. I'll be the first ta as, so ya'lls don't have ta. i'm not the brightest turd that's been flushend down the sewer. like pappy always says: bout as bright as a burnt out light bulb, when ya flip the switch, the ellament don't connect I try keeping open mind, theropest said cowboy boots will cause back problems, his words not mine, don't have medical diploma. so when go out hog hunting, wear tennishoes, had figured that out when was a kid playing sports. back if law says ya gotta use steel shot, their just might be evidence. that's what they get played for. scratch reminds me gotta get some new tennishoes. that extra weight when get a hog, has but extra weight & that PVC glue not holden up flag



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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5200573 07/14/14 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Again, I'm not buying it simply because they said it. Show the evidence.


I actually lived in AZ for about 6 years - the condor issue is a real issue. More than one person that I know was involved or extremely knowledgeable on the subject - who were also pro hunting and big time hunters - stated as much.

The information is there.

But as I said before, it's limited to the Condor, how it eats and specifically how susceptible that particular breed is to lead toxicity.

With waterfowl, it's not from the water being poisoned. It's from studies that showed (and in my opinion were weighted to show) that ducks and geese would ingest lead pellets to aid in digestion, and those lead pellets sitting in their gizzard for days and weeks at a time would promote lead poisoning.

My problem with the studies is the methodoligy in which the studies were done and that there seemed to be very little actual data pulled from the real world. Again, politics.

Again, the information is there. The big difference between the Condor study and the waterfowl study, in my opinion, is that the condor study was done with wild birds and using data gathered from natural habitats. The waterfowl studies were largely done in a lab where they fed lead pellets to birds.

Saltwater has always, and will always, have measurable levels of heavy metals. It's the nature of salt water. There are areas that have higher levels as a result of industrial runoff, but you can go to the most remote place in the Pacific and find heavy metals in seawater. Hell, you can find uranium in seawater as well. It's naturally occurring - just like arsenic is in many aquifers today.

Eating fish, even daily, isn't going to introduce enough heavy metals into your system to cause problems (unless it is an excessively high amount of heavy metals, which would be very rare, or unless you have other issues that are exascerbated by the introduction of heavy metals). Eating ducks and geese and occasionally ingesting a #4 pellet isn't going to cause problems - you'll crap them out in about a day anyway with a minimal amount of adsorbtion by the body.

Now if you go gnaw on a 2 pound lead ingot for a day, that would be a different story. Your body would not be able to metabolize that quantity of metals and you'd find yourself in bad shape as a result.

What I find particularly interesting about the switch to steel shot is that, at least to my limited knowledge, there has been no long term studies done to find out what the effects of iron and copper (copper plated shot is very common) ingestion by waterfowl is. Humans can, and do, suffer from iron poisoning, but I've not seen a study on this for waterfowl.

Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5201014 07/14/14 08:20 PM
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My personal view is that the claims are over exaggerated. I am not aware of any scientific study that shows any correlation that shows using lead ammo leads to lead poisoning in any predators species.

That said I use Barnes bullets (all copper) whenever I can because of their penetration/performance.

Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5201112 07/14/14 09:11 PM
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Solid (metallic) lead is essentially insoluble in water.
Heck, there is a dozen pounds of it sitting immersed in strong sulfuric acid in your car battery - last time I checked it doesn't dissolve away.
That is why bullet (fragments) are often left in body tissues (rather than further-injuring the tissues to remove them) without causing any adverse health affects. Lead-poisoning from lead-bullets (and shot) is way overrated and mostly an leftist activist control scare-tactic.


Lead oxide (old paint) however IS more water soluble (especially in stomach acid) - hence it's cautions (around young children). Lead (in the old type gasoline) increased lead-vapor (also more readily absorbable) indiscriminately - banning/limiting both these was sensible.

Lead (galena) however comes from nature; hence it's natural. Keep it away from babies, and everything will be fine.


Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: oldoak2000] #5201631 07/15/14 01:51 AM
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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Dave Davidson] #5201682 07/15/14 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson
I've always wondered just how much lead shot a duck or any other water bird could ingest. I don't believe that small amounts of lead shot will contaminate water. One foot of water over one acre is 27,000 gallons. Do the math.


It's actually a lot more than that. One acre-foot is over 385,000 gallons


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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: TonyinVA] #5201702 07/15/14 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: schmellba99
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Again, I'm not buying it simply because they said it. Show the evidence.


I actually lived in AZ for about 6 years - the condor issue is a real issue. More than one person that I know was involved or extremely knowledgeable on the subject - who were also pro hunting and big time hunters - stated as much.

The information is there.

But as I said before, it's limited to the Condor, how it eats and specifically how susceptible that particular breed is to lead toxicity.

With waterfowl, it's not from the water being poisoned. It's from studies that showed (and in my opinion were weighted to show) that ducks and geese would ingest lead pellets to aid in digestion, and those lead pellets sitting in their gizzard for days and weeks at a time would promote lead poisoning.

My problem with the studies is the methodoligy in which the studies were done and that there seemed to be very little actual data pulled from the real world. Again, politics.

Again, the information is there. The big difference between the Condor study and the waterfowl study, in my opinion, is that the condor study was done with wild birds and using data gathered from natural habitats. The waterfowl studies were largely done in a lab where they fed lead pellets to birds.

Saltwater has always, and will always, have measurable levels of heavy metals. It's the nature of salt water. There are areas that have higher levels as a result of industrial runoff, but you can go to the most remote place in the Pacific and find heavy metals in seawater. Hell, you can find uranium in seawater as well. It's naturally occurring - just like arsenic is in many aquifers today.

Eating fish, even daily, isn't going to introduce enough heavy metals into your system to cause problems (unless it is an excessively high amount of heavy metals, which would be very rare, or unless you have other issues that are exascerbated by the introduction of heavy metals). Eating ducks and geese and occasionally ingesting a #4 pellet isn't going to cause problems - you'll crap them out in about a day anyway with a minimal amount of adsorbtion by the body.

Now if you go gnaw on a 2 pound lead ingot for a day, that would be a different story. Your body would not be able to metabolize that quantity of metals and you'd find yourself in bad shape as a result.

What I find particularly interesting about the switch to steel shot is that, at least to my limited knowledge, there has been no long term studies done to find out what the effects of iron and copper (copper plated shot is very common) ingestion by waterfowl is. Humans can, and do, suffer from iron poisoning, but I've not seen a study on this for waterfowl.


Thanks for all the info, some great stuff.

Originally Posted By: TonyinVA
My personal view is that the claims are over exaggerated. I am not aware of any scientific study that shows any correlation that shows using lead ammo leads to lead poisoning in any predators species.

That said I use Barnes bullets (all copper) whenever I can because of their penetration/performance.


I am also using Barnes for that reason, Nosler has an E-Tip bullet that I am trying out too.


Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5201880 07/15/14 10:40 AM
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You're right Hirogen. One acre/inch is 27,000 gallons. I appreciate your clarification.


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Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley, Rancher Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5202127 07/15/14 02:26 PM
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cheers after reading some of the input, I'm not giving up my leadballs flag



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Re: Lead and Non-Lead Hunting Bullets [Re: Gone to Texas] #5202812 07/15/14 11:08 PM
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As far as lead shot goes, I can't help but think of it as anything but a senseless knee jerk keep them happy law or they'd ban lead for dove hunting within 100 yards of any water source. I dove hunt and duck hunt on the same stretch of river, and in the same lakes/ponds, just with different shot. I sling a LOT more shot at doves than ducks.

And for the heavy metals (primarily mercury) in pelagic fish, I read the results of a study a few years ago where the only evidence of enough accumulation to do any harm was in the children carried by women in a Pacific Island nation (can't remember which one) where the pregnant women ate more than a pound of pelagic fish a day before and during pregnancy as part of their routine diet. I don't know about y'all, but I can't afford to eat a pound of pelagic fish a day... I wish I could find that study, I think it was National Geographic or something like that, conducted by a US university.

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