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Mar 25th, 2012
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585HE #5085076
04/24/14 12:40 AM
04/24/14 12:40 AM
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585HE, SECOND LOAD OF CASES IN PRODUCTION....
First load 3 barrels, next 10+ barrels,

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, ''tankhunter'' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon
be three reamers there.

There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....
Mcgowen is making barrels here. There is about
2 dozen guns now done or being done.
More being planned.Ed







Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5119681
05/20/14 05:16 AM
05/20/14 05:16 AM
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Here is picture of first 585HE in TX, a
Nef with long barrel mono-blocked into
a breach section of the 10ga Nef barrel.
He loads it 650gr at 23-2400..




Here is picture of case on the right next to a
505 Gibbs. Any gun that can be set up to feed
the Gibbs will feed ours also...Ed



Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5147236
06/08/14 03:10 AM
06/08/14 03:10 AM
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We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...Moderate/hunting/target
loads still much more energy than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay.

Versatility. Most none elephant hunters can use on lighter game, for
example, shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
There are more variety of .585" bullets, jacketed,turned, lead, than any other
caliber over 458. Here are about a third we have found..
Including some extra long and heavy for whisper, subsonic type load,
with 4000 ft lbs energy. That's huge energy for subsonic cartridge



Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1.
We got 2 in FBW falling blocks made.
The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours we don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.



Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
Dies available now are CH4D, 3 die set, with one inch thread.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
To bottom of most bullets. It has effiencies of 37+%, where necked cases
in 50cal trying to get same energy, are about 29%.

The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here is a nice single with 585HE in it.




Here is picture of first 585HE put in MRC PH. Ed


Last edited by hubel458; 06/08/14 03:11 AM.

Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5147626
06/08/14 03:37 PM
06/08/14 03:37 PM
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eek What's the recoil on that Hoss?



800 Yard Steel Range
Precision Rifle Instruction
Memberships and Classes Available
Re: 585HE [Re: FiremanJG] #5147873
06/08/14 07:21 PM
06/08/14 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
eek What's the recoil on that Hoss?

Bad


The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it

Powder coated cast bullets available. https://www.facebook.com/lazyhbullets/
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5148215
06/08/14 11:58 PM
06/08/14 11:58 PM
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Depends on gun weight, pad thickness, porting.

12 lb full load 585HE, with 650gr at 2800; is

about like shooting a magnum 3.5" turkey load

in 7 lb 12ga.Ed


Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5198746
07/12/14 10:04 PM
07/12/14 10:04 PM
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We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads.

And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We started
using rubber coated mouse balls that we have a big pail of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and right weight.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam pressed under butt pad.



We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out.long. 200gr settled good in picture.



And more fun shooting, using 4 black powder substtiute pellets
under a Minie bullet. Nice cloud of aromatic smoke,
Pictured is 4 54cal pellets under the Minie. Ed



Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5220433
07/27/14 06:06 AM
07/27/14 06:06 AM
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In a related 585 caliber size we made the 24ga FH, and lengthened 24ga chamber to 3 inches.
The barrel of our 585HE is .585" bore and rifled 24ga bore, are same size. And some of
58cal Minie bullets available to buy or cast are .585-.687" and work in the 24ga case fine.

Now we found a fast, easy way to get 24ga brass cases, just get 577NE brass and reduce
the rim from .750" to 24ga size of .720" and re-stamp casehead 20ga . Using 3" 577 brass.
We made 24ga chamber for 3" case, brass fits and the regular 24ga 2.5" plastic works also.

.

Our 585HEhas same overall loaded length as a Gibbs.
Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets...And any gun that can be set up for Gibbs can feed
the 585HE. The long bolt actions work, like Enfield, BBK, Savage, Ruger, MRC PH, etc,
and it is tested in break actions and falling block actions..

First picture is the 585HE in a NEF we mono-blocked a 585 barrel into.

Second picture is couple cases loaded with CEB solid turned brass bullets.

Third picture is 585 in a FBW falling block action we adapted to fit into one piece stock. Ed

..





...


Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5260609
08/19/14 01:40 AM
08/19/14 01:40 AM
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WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is the
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own headstamp on..

Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

Third is one with bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make
a great long range target/hunting cartridge.Like using Barnes bullets
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.







Cases are made super strong, made in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as 408 Cheytac/505 Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws,
uses different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not old style balloon head junk cases.



We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
Reamer specs all set and in the chambers made with them, the cases
extract at the highest pressures.
Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP..Ed



Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5260764
08/19/14 02:51 AM
08/19/14 02:51 AM
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I find this thread purely amazing! What is your price per cartridge?


The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it

Powder coated cast bullets available. https://www.facebook.com/lazyhbullets/
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5260816
08/19/14 03:29 AM
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Maybe a dumb question but is that safe in the shot she'll casing like that? Or would the chamber be absorbing the pressure?

Even on a brass casing, does the brass contain the pressure or technically the chamber?

Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5260818
08/19/14 03:29 AM
08/19/14 03:29 AM
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Oh and yes I agree, absolutely gets cool points from me too!

Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5267879
08/23/14 04:18 AM
08/23/14 04:18 AM
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Oh the chamber takes most of the pressure.
We keep the pressures within the limits of what
the shell bases and/or gun types will hold.

Like in a NEF, 24ga plastic case we do about 14,000 psi max,
but in brass 24ga case about twice as much.The plastic case is
the limiting factor on the first and gun style is limiting
factor on the second example..

Our 585 cases are $3.70 each and loaded rounds
5 to 7 bucks each depending on bullet or slug
used, in volume. Ed.


Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5280663
08/30/14 11:30 PM
08/30/14 11:30 PM
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In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.



Ourcases have a diameter that works with regular .700" dia bolt guns,
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of our case held in a Ruger bolt, as an example..



And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to deaw harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper
strength, because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the mfg process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems. We tested 70,000 psi loads.





We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.



WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.



The one setup in the the NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad, is the first in TX
and there is video put on ytube by the owner-- URL below-- Ed

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc


Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5296009
09/09/14 05:40 AM
09/09/14 05:40 AM
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First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed



Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5296186
09/09/14 12:40 PM
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As a practical round, no. Now, if I was hunting Buicks...

Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5296215
09/09/14 12:57 PM
09/09/14 12:57 PM
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I would use it on white tails just to PO the "shot placement" crowd.

Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5301033
09/11/14 05:18 PM
09/11/14 05:18 PM
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AH- but it is a very practical round, aside from
dangerous game use, you can use economical, lighter,
Minie bullets and similar for deer and hogs, for
fun target use, load cases forever, dozens of times.
And with longer spitzer bullets, use for long range
target use, without buying a real big, expensive
bmg action. There are more bullet and bullet combo
choices for this caliber than any other over 458.Ed


Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5310795
09/17/14 03:03 AM
09/17/14 03:03 AM
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We have shot the lead Minie bullets through 6 x 6

dried hardwood and little harder alloy ones through old

pieces of telephone poles.

The super hard, heat treated, lead ones,

will shoot through 1/2 inch steel. Very useful case. Ed


Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5323380
09/24/14 05:12 AM
09/24/14 05:12 AM
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In the process of checking out all bullets/slugs in 585 size caliber,
it lead to the idea of the little brother of our 585HE, a 24ga FH.
Very suitable for shotgun only deer areas, with a very effective load.
And a huge supply and variet of bullets and slugs.
Same rifled bore as our 585HE, same barrels work. And they
have big supply of barrels, so we don't wait like for 12ga FH ones.
Using brass cases they get loads like 577NE which is same bore.
And many guys like idea of 577/585 size without spending
10 grand. 650gr at 2000 and 540 gr at 2200 fps not too bad.
And for lighter non-African dangerous game we use a variety of
lighter 58cal saboted and lead Minie bullets as well as heavy ones..

First is picture of a Minie bullet with a seal we made from 24ga
BPI brushwad, Seal fits up inside the hollowbase of the Minies.
We make them cutting BPI brush wads in half, without the cushion.



Next picture is of 28cal Hornady ML sabot with .452" pistol bullets
of 250 to 300 gr in them for lighter high speed load, for 24ga FH.
Nice for deer and target fun. And all these will
still shoot in 585HE also.



Next picture is idea for the 585HE Whisper subsonic load with long,
real, heavy bullets, shown with dummy bullets in the cases.
Idea came from an experimenter, Bret in MN, and with a 1600 gr
bullet at subsonic 1050 fps gives 4000 ft lbs, a huge amount
over other subsonic cases guys have made. And can have subsonic
loads with the regular 750 gr bullets also 900gr, 1000gr, 1200gr, etc.Ed



Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5344589
10/06/14 05:37 PM
10/06/14 05:37 PM
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Here is 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
That stock helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed



Here is some of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and few are straight blanks.
Others from another place in paper wrap are the slow twist and
others are smooth .In back are some of the cases and die sets.



Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5361008
10/15/14 05:11 AM
10/15/14 05:11 AM
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Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, then to 577 BP Express. then
to 3" cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of
.570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders it is real interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have a
24ga FH, a l regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the cases 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, same for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned case made.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun. 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed


Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5380046
10/26/14 12:22 PM
10/26/14 12:22 PM
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Here is picture of 585HE, 100 cases a guy got loaded,
They are CEB solid nose bullets, and hollowpoints.
This bullet is turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is break action being set up for the 24ga FH. It is done by mono-blocking
in a .585"/24ga barrel. With the 3" 24ga brass case running 35,000 psi,
a moderate load, with 440gr minie, it gets about same power
as some loads in the 458Win. Ed



Ed Hubel
Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5380879
10/26/14 11:23 PM
10/26/14 11:23 PM
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You're having all kinds of fun with this. I like it!

Re: 585HE [Re: hubel458] #5401389
11/06/14 12:29 AM
11/06/14 12:29 AM
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Thankyou, yes it is great hobby...

Here is a different look at 585-458 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
It holds lead as well as jacketed.



Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.



I do like Enfields to put our 585 in, and one of the reasons is
they have bigger bolt lugs than most, by bigger they have more
cross section where the lug is on the bolt body. And the left lug
is longer forward so as to support the case, after the bolt face is
opened for the bigger case, as the extractor
pushes the case to the left.




Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.

The here being the US, and with our group here, also having
barrels, dies, cases, and McGowen with barrels in stock,
CH4D with 585HE dies in stock, shops with # 31 shellholders.
And later a few retail outlets setup with cases in stock...Ed .


Ed Hubel
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