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TPWD Paper on Spikes #4459059 08/08/13 01:32 PM
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I have seen a few posts on here lately mentioning the myth that spikes can somehow grow into great bucks if you leave them alone long enough. I'm linking a great paper published by TPWD that absolutely dispells that myth. I'm relatively new to the forum, so this paper very well may have been posted before, but I figured I would post it as we're about to head into the season, and many of you will encounter a yearling spike or two in the first month or so of the season. Bottom line, you don't want yearling spikes in your herd.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0827.pdf


They weren't raiding a girl scout troop looking for overdue library books.

Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: 909ag2006] #4459068 08/08/13 01:35 PM
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459078 08/08/13 01:39 PM
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hmmm


Originally Posted By: cameron00
If I send my neighbors a text and ask them to give me feedback on my lawn and plant rye into a giant dong pattern, I'm probably going to get some less than positive feedback. Same goes here.
Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459084 08/08/13 01:42 PM
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Lol oh the famous kerr study that brought God like powers to mer mortal man giving them ability to change the genetics of their herd, with out bringing in outside genetics. To bad no body has been able to replicate it.


Kerr study proved if you take a fork horn with documented heredity(doe and buck) and line breed him to his offspring, year after year. And then take you a hill country spike and doe and line bred him for generations that his off spring would be by percentage wise of BC will be smaller.

Why didn't they cross over does?


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: BOBO the Clown] #4459088 08/08/13 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Lol oh the famous kerr study that brought God like powers to mer mortal man giving the ability to change genetics of their herd. To bad no body has been able to replicate it.


Kerr study proved if you take a fork horn with documented heredity(doe and buck) and line breed him to his offspring, year after year. And then take you a hill country spike and doe and line bred him for generations that his off spring would be by percentage wise of BC will be smaller.

Why didn't they cross over does?

trout ASSUMING whip read the pdf file posted dunce donkey clap


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: BOBO the Clown] #4459095 08/08/13 01:48 PM
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Do y'all know if this is available in print form for purchase ? If so would you give me a heads up where to purchase it....I would really like to buy a copy....

rick

Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: 909ag2006] #4459112 08/08/13 01:57 PM
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First off, with all due respect I have never seen the TPWD get anything right. This is a dip stick study with so many holes and variables that the only purpose it served was for someone to get grant money from TPWD.

So all these bucks were fed a controlled diet. If the controlled diet were the main factor, all the bucks would look the same. It depends on the genetics of the father, the genetics of the mother, the resulting genetic mix of the son, the diet each family members have all their lives, and the weather. And I'm sure there are a dozen more factors that I'm not aware of.

I know a deer breeder. Bucks that are dinks up to their 2nd year will often hit a growth spurt and meet or exceed B&C numbers (which aren't applicable to them).

This report rates right up there with the goober that said an AR15 wasn't a viable deer rifle. BYW, just my 2cents


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It's about knowing where the rocks are.
Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459125 08/08/13 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Lol oh the famous kerr study that brought God like powers to mer mortal man giving the ability to change genetics of their herd. To bad no body has been able to replicate it.


Kerr study proved if you take a fork horn with documented heredity(doe and buck) and line breed him to his offspring, year after year. And then take you a hill country spike and doe and line bred him for generations that his off spring would be by percentage wise of BC will be smaller.

Why didn't they cross over does?

trout ASSUMING whip read the pdf file posted dunce donkey clap


Its kerr. Still. Lets play genetic gods and skip over everything else that truely matters. Lets ignore the barriers and abilities of the majority to even control population numbers, let jump to the very last stage of any management plan.

if your going to hammer spikes then hammer ever deer under 2.5 that's not 10pts. How many years is it going to take to eliminate the not 10pt Genetic.

Better yet lets whip the herds out 100% an reintroduce


Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: Barcelona Rick] #4459129 08/08/13 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Barcelona Rick
Do y'all know if this is available in print form for purchase ? If so would you give me a heads up where to purchase it....I would really like to buy a copy....

rick



Control print


Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: BOBO the Clown] #4459145 08/08/13 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Lol oh the famous kerr study that brought God like powers to mer mortal man giving the ability to change genetics of their herd. To bad no body has been able to replicate it.


Kerr study proved if you take a fork horn with documented heredity(doe and buck) and line breed him to his offspring, year after year. And then take you a hill country spike and doe and line bred him for generations that his off spring would be by percentage wise of BC will be smaller.

Why didn't they cross over does?

trout ASSUMING whip read the pdf file posted dunce donkey clap


Its kerr. Still. Lets play genetic gods and skip over everything else that truely matters. Lets ignore the barriers and abilities of the majority to even control population numbers, let jump to the very last stage of any management plan.

if your going to hammer spikes then hammer ever deer under 2.5 that's not 10pts. How many years is it going to take to eliminate the not 10pt Genetic.

Better yet lets whip the herds out 100% an reintroduce



So I take this as a no that you did not read the PDF file posted. grin You can preach what you tried and failed with and I can preach what I have tried and been successful with. In the end we will both be correct...in our own minds. cheers


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459172 08/08/13 02:14 PM
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I skimmed, its the same thing. Spikes at maturity will be smaller percentage wise of BC, then forked counter parts.

It works for you, but does the average leasor, have the same abilities to regulate their herds the same as you did?


Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459178 08/08/13 02:15 PM
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I'm sure there are plenty of holes / unaccounted for variables in the study. I'll admit I haven't read the whole thing. But, I do think it's conclusions are accurate. If it's right, and you choose not to follow it, you're going to damage the genetic quality of your herd. If its wrong, and you do follow it, your only downside is that you culled out bucks that MIGHT hit a growth spurt in year 3 or so.


They weren't raiding a girl scout troop looking for overdue library books.

Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: 909ag2006] #4459182 08/08/13 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: 909ag2006
I'm sure there are plenty of holes / unaccounted for variables in the study. I'll admit I haven't read the whole thing.


hmmm


Originally Posted By: cameron00
If I send my neighbors a text and ask them to give me feedback on my lawn and plant rye into a giant dong pattern, I'm probably going to get some less than positive feedback. Same goes here.
Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: BOBO the Clown] #4459186 08/08/13 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
I skimmed, its the same thing. Spikes at maturity will be smaller percentage wise of BC, then forked counter parts.

It works for you, but does the average leasor, have the same abilities to regulate their herds the same as you did?




Read as in read not skim the whole PDF. It addresses your first question about crosses with data results. But don't read the data results on the pics but rather the data they post below- I saw one error.


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: BOBO the Clown] #4459200 08/08/13 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
I skimmed, its the same thing. Spikes at maturity will be smaller percentage wise of BC, then forked counter parts.

It works for you, but does the average leasor, have the same abilities to regulate their herds the same as you did?




It would work for the average lease or landowner IF everyone in the state did the same thing for at least 7 yrs. There in lies the problem getting everyone to participate. That is the beauty of allowing landowners/managers to manage as they see best for their property. To answer another question your posed about replicating the study, I have seen a LF ranch first hand that has been culling all spikes since the late 90's and continues. The results speak for themselves.


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459247 08/08/13 02:35 PM
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"Continues" key word and trend. 20years later and the "trend" is still there.

I'm sure they do have exceptional deer, they have the resources to year in year out tcontinue feeding exactly what they want to feed.

They aren't changing genetics. They are simply elimating what they don't want to feed, only allowing certian deer to reach an age class were they can actually express their potential.

question should be what has had the greatest impact on their success that the avg hunter can try to replicate. .. you truly believe its soley spike harvest?


Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459262 08/08/13 02:40 PM
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I've yet to see a LF place line breed to the point of having infertility issues in a deer herd. If all data is correct and spikes actually weigh less than their counterparts then you'd have to admit gumby was not a spike. Considering what their multipoint sires look like that are posted, they'd fail miserably as deer breeders.

Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: BOBO the Clown] #4459276 08/08/13 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
"Continues" key word and trend. 20years later and the "trend" is still there.

I'm sure they do have exceptional deer, they have the resources to year in year out tcontinue feeding exactly what they want to feed.

They aren't changing genetics. They are simply elimating what they don't want to feed, only allowing certian deer to reach an age class were they can actually express their potential.

question should be what has had the greatest impact on their success that the avg hunter can try to replicate. .. you truly believe its soley spike harvest?

You cannot say it will still continue 20 yrs later with the "trend" since you nor I nor anyone has taken it that far..yet. Till you have done it you can really speculate what might happen since never have tried or carried to that extreme.

This ranch did not feed during the first 8 yrs I know when, they might have started feeding after that in a test area. But as far as feeding when culling spikes and does they did not when I was going there a lot.

What you are changing is what is doing the breeding...you keep what you like and if they are only bucks left to breed then you are changing it for your satisfaction.

Do I solely believe it is a spike harvest? It depends. But if the range is at or above CC, then killing all spikes and enough does to keep your numbers at CC will benefit the range and the deer herd. At that point that spike is a mouth, that is eating forage that another buck or a doe(bred to a non-spike sire is eating to feed non-spike sired offspring).

I know a well known wildlife biologist who took a Kinney County ranch and they shot the doe numbers down to what they wanted then killed off every buck that year but 4. He told me the results were much better than what they expected over the next 7 yrs.


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: rifleman] #4459287 08/08/13 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
I've yet to see a LF place line breed to the point of having infertility issues in a deer herd. If all data is correct and spikes actually weigh less than their counterparts then you'd have to admit gumby was not a spike. Considering what their multipoint sires look like that are posted, they'd fail miserably as deer breeders.

You have not killed Gumby yet to weigh him to know that answer. My WAG is that he will weigh a lot less than your better bucks (with bigger antlers and better scores).
But you are forgetting they are starting with deer from their herd in those pens not hand selected sires from the best of the best. Also all those deer never live past 4 yrs of age in that study. At the time they were doing this they had some really great deer for their age class.


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: rifleman] #4459292 08/08/13 02:51 PM
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I'll start shooting spikes after there is nothing else I want to cull or take as a trophy and still need to take deer off after reaching my doe quota for the season

Last edited by JMalin; 08/08/13 02:52 PM.
Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459303 08/08/13 02:56 PM
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There's also the speculation that deer just don't like being in a pen in Kerr Co...lack of rain causes them to be clinically depressed and that stress affects their growth. The protein % data disputes their genetic findings if antler size is dependent on how much protein is put to them....

Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459306 08/08/13 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: rifleman
I've yet to see a LF place line breed to the point of having infertility issues in a deer herd. If all data is correct and spikes actually weigh less than their counterparts then you'd have to admit gumby was not a spike. Considering what their multipoint sires look like that are posted, they'd fail miserably as deer breeders.

You have not killed Gumby yet to weigh him to know that answer. My WAG is that he will weigh a lot less than your better bucks (with bigger antlers and better scores).
But you are forgetting they are starting with deer from their herd in those pens not hand selected sires from the best of the best. Also all those deer never live past 4 yrs of age in that study. At the time they were doing this they had some really great deer for their age class.


Your WAG will be wrong on gumby's weight. It's not like I haven't seen him up against other deer....

Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: stxranchman] #4459331 08/08/13 03:08 PM
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A fact or a truth is not necessarily fundemental.

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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: rifleman] #4459337 08/08/13 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: rifleman
I've yet to see a LF place line breed to the point of having infertility issues in a deer herd. If all data is correct and spikes actually weigh less than their counterparts then you'd have to admit gumby was not a spike. Considering what their multipoint sires look like that are posted, they'd fail miserably as deer breeders.

You have not killed Gumby yet to weigh him to know that answer. My WAG is that he will weigh a lot less than your better bucks (with bigger antlers and better scores).
But you are forgetting they are starting with deer from their herd in those pens not hand selected sires from the best of the best. Also all those deer never live past 4 yrs of age in that study. At the time they were doing this they had some really great deer for their age class.


Your WAG will be wrong on gumby's weight. It's not like I haven't seen him up against other deer....

nidea Set hook... scratch now reeling in the catch.... grin prove it rofl


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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes [Re: rifleman] #4459345 08/08/13 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: rifleman
There's also the speculation that deer just don't like being in a pen in Kerr Co...lack of rain causes them to be clinically depressed and that stress affects their growth. The protein % data disputes their genetic findings if antler size is dependent on how much protein is put to them....

Just how many year have they been in those pens and been doing research again?
Their protein % work is what sold me on killing spikes. They took branched antler sired buck fawns and stressed them with a limited daily diet for their first year. Then took them back to regular diet. Did the same with spike sired buck fawns. The results from that study is what convinced me.


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