texashuntingforum.com logo
Main Menu
Advertisement
Affiliates
Advertisement
Newest Members
Josh-04512, dblmikeusa1, Hog-Pro, 4Notch, Niknoc76
72042 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
dogcatcher 110,795
bill oxner 91,416
SnakeWrangler 65,517
stxranchman 60,296
Gravytrain 46,950
RKHarm24 44,585
rifleman 44,461
Stub 43,848
Forum Statistics
Forums46
Topics537,783
Posts9,729,076
Members87,042
Most Online25,604
Feb 12th, 2024
Print Thread
A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! #4239406 05/07/13 08:06 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2
L
loboshe Offline OP
Green Horn
OP Offline
Green Horn
L
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2
Over a year ago, there was a conversion (that I'm unable to bring up in Search) about whether these two could produce a viable fetus. The majority opinion was no, since the Axis is more closely related to Elk or something like that.

BUT....what I saw at the ranch these past few days sure LOOKS like a cross.

From the front shoulders to his nose, it looked like a White Tail. From the front shoulders to the back quarters, there were spots like an Axis. Its hind quarters and tail looked like a White Tail, except around the tail, and on the hind quarters, there seemed to be a lot more white than a White Tail. But has a definite "White Tail" tail.

It comes in by itself to the feeder, and the other deer--BOTH Axis and White Tail, seem to want to chase it off

Any ideas?

Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: loboshe] #4239434 05/07/13 08:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 63
A
Aggieivy Offline
Outdoorsman
Offline
Outdoorsman
A
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 63
pics?

Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: Aggieivy] #4239439 05/07/13 08:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
T
txtrophy85 Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
We had one of those at the ranch.

I was gonna shoot it but decided to take the unicorn instead


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: txtrophy85] #4239546 05/07/13 09:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,534
R
redchevy Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
R
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,534
Not sure what it is called, maybe piebald? But your not the first person to see a white tail with full blown white spots as an adult and no they weren't crossed with an axis.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: redchevy] #4239554 05/07/13 09:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
S
stxranchman Offline
Obie Juan Kenobi
Offline
Obie Juan Kenobi
S
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
Could be a late born WT fawn that still has the faint spots. I have seen it before.


Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?[Linked Image]
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: stxranchman] #4239689 05/07/13 10:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
J
John Humbert Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
J
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
Whitetail and axis will definitely mount each other. However the chances of that mating producing a viable fetus would be rare. The chance of a viable fetus bring carried to term is very rare. And the chance of even that jackpot surviving more than a few months after birth is so rare as to defy believably. But I guess it could happen in some freak way - I wouldn't bet my life against it happening.

However, it is MUCH more likely to have a whitetail that has genetically different coloring. There have been a few documented cases where fawn spots were carried through to adults. Not to mention piebalds, white, melanistic, or albinos.

Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4239699 05/07/13 10:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
T
txtrophy85 Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
Originally Posted By: John Humbert
Whitetail and axis will definitely mount each other. However the chances of that mating producing a viable fetus would be rare. The chance of a viable fetus bring carried to term is very rare. And the chance of even that jackpot surviving more than a few months after birth is so rare as to defy believably. But I guess it could happen in some freak way - I wouldn't bet my life against it happening.

However, it is MUCH more likely to have a whitetail that has genetically different coloring. There have been a few documented cases where fawn spots were carried through to adults. Not to mention piebalds, white, melanistic, or albinos.


i don't think its possible. someone would have killed one by now or bred it in captivity.


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: loboshe] #4239869 05/07/13 11:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,412
W
west-tex Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
W
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,412
worthless

Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: west-tex] #4240053 05/08/13 12:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,322
D
Dave Davidson Online Content
THF Trophy Hunter
Online Content
THF Trophy Hunter
D
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,322
I saw one like that on my place in Montague County about 5 years ago. I'm still not sure what I actually saw but it was spotted like an axis with the antlers of a whitetail.


Without a sense of urgency, nothing ever happens.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley, Rancher Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: Dave Davidson] #4240586 05/08/13 03:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
J
John Humbert Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
J
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
I doubt it is a cross. But if you see one, don't look at spots - look for the black stripe running down the back.

As I said, MUCH more likely aberrant color on a whitetail. I was reading somewhere that as a fawn grows it increases a hormone or enzyme that causes the spots to disappear off the coat. If the deer has certain dietary deficits it can inhibit the production if the chemical and deer will retain the spots later than normal, even as fawn reaches its first year. But then it generally corrects itself.

However, there was a pic posted right here on this forum that a full grown deer that had retained its spots.

So far as crosses between species, it just doesn't happen. Mixing of chromosomes just doesn't work in nature. While egg fertilization is possible, it doesn't grow. Yes, there are cases where the BEGINS to develop, but generally cannot produce the required biochemistry to continue and it is reabsorbed by the body after a very short time. The body realizes it not working. In VERY rare cases the egg continues to grow in some bizarre blob of protoplasm that can hardly be considered an animal.

In even rarer cases where the gestation period is small, like rats, and recombinant DNA is not to bizarre, a fetus may be carried to term - but they are usually born dead or die after the blob is born. There is bizarre exhibition of human fetuses in Japan as the result of experimentation during WWII.

Still more bizarre, although more "common", is the case of parthenogenesis. This is phenomena where an unfertilized egg develops into a full and complete animal but with only half the normal chromosomes. This can be naturally or artificially induced. In some cases, just the 'pricking' of the outer sheath of an ovum triggers the start of cell reproduction and development of a zygote. This is accomplished in the laboratory with a needle, and sometimes in nature by the penetration of the ovum of a spermatozoa of a dissimilar species.

In the case of parthenogenesis, a full animal is produced, born, and can live a normal lifespan. However, they can never reproduce and are always males (if I remember correctly). This has been demonstrated in just every species of fish, birds, insects, AND mammals.

In fact, all male honey bees only have half the chromosomes of female bees. And the 'haploid' grass carp produced only have half the number of chromosomes. Haploid cells actually means that.

Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4240598 05/08/13 03:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
T
txtrophy85 Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
Originally Posted By: John Humbert
I doubt it is a cross. But if you see one, don't look at spots - look for the black stripe running down the back.

As I said, MUCH more likely aberrant color on a whitetail. I was reading somewhere that as a fawn grows it increases a hormone or enzyme that causes the spots to disappear off the coat. If the deer has certain dietary deficits it can inhibit the production if the chemical and deer will retain the spots later than normal, even as fawn reaches its first year. But then it generally corrects itself.

However, there was a pic posted right here on this forum that a full grown deer that had retained its spots.

So far as crosses between species, it just doesn't happen. Mixing of chromosomes just doesn't work in nature. While egg fertilization is possible, it doesn't grow. Yes, there are cases where the BEGINS to develop, but generally cannot produce the required biochemistry to continue and it is reabsorbed by the body after a very short time. The body realizes it not working. In VERY rare cases the egg continues to grow in some bizarre blob of protoplasm that can hardly be considered an animal.

In even rarer cases where the gestation period is small, like rats, and recombinant DNA is not to bizarre, a fetus may be carried to term - but they are usually born dead or die after the blob is born. There is bizarre exhibition of human fetuses in Japan as the result of experimentation during WWII.

Still more bizarre, although more "common", is the case of parthenogenesis. This is phenomena where an unfertilized egg develops into a full and complete animal but with only half the normal chromosomes. This can be naturally or artificially induced. In some cases, just the 'pricking' of the outer sheath of an ovum triggers the start of cell reproduction and development of a zygote. This is accomplished in the laboratory with a needle, and sometimes in nature by the penetration of the ovum of a spermatozoa of a dissimilar species.

In the case of parthenogenesis, a full animal is produced, born, and can live a normal lifespan. However, they can never reproduce and are always males (if I remember correctly). This has been demonstrated in just every species of fish, birds, insects, AND mammals.

In fact, all male honey bees only have half the chromosomes of female bees. And the 'haploid' grass carp produced only have half the number of chromosomes. Haploid cells actually means that.


i'd like to hear about these human fetus experiments?

what were they?


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4240628 05/08/13 04:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
J
John Humbert Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
J
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
You have to remember, while whitetail and axis both look similar, they belong to different families/orders and genetically as different as a pig and a monkey. So very, very unlikely a true cross could ever be produced.

Even whitetail and mule deer, who are of the same family and genus, and have known to produce true crosses - it is very, very, very rare. And often true crosses don't exhibit ANY merged characteristics. The WT/mulie crosses that have been documented often look exactly like a WT or exactly like a mulie without any "merged" features. When merged features are expressed, they are usually so subtle that can easily be overlooked or explained away - such as atypical WT horns rather than an expressed mulie trait.

Often the resultant expression in a cross/hybrid shows in traits that are not seen in any of the pure parent. This is especially true in coloration.

If you see a deer that has spots like an axis, but horns like a WT. I would look for the telltail black stripe in axis coloration. If it missing, you have a whitetail with aberrant coloration. If it is present, then you have an axis with aberrant antler configuration.

Now God is great and Mother Nature can be bizarre - and some freakish miracle might have a true cross between a WT and an axis might exist - because with God anything is possible - but there are much more believable and scientifically supportable explanations for the APPEARANCE of what LOOKS like a cross.

Last edited by John Humbert; 05/08/13 04:04 AM.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4240638 05/08/13 04:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
T
txtrophy85 Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
still waiting to hear about the experiments john.....


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: txtrophy85] #4240640 05/08/13 04:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
T
txtrophy85 Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,902
i dunno, if anyone remembers those devil looking goat sheep posted in the exotic section a few years back, I would definatly say anything is possible.

those things were all kinds of hideous looking


For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4240642 05/08/13 04:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
J
John Humbert Offline
Pro Tracker
Offline
Pro Tracker
J
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,666
Brandon, you can google them. Shouldn't be too hard to find. They did some stuff that made the Nazi human experiments look mild.

If I remember my literature correctly, the fictional work "The Island of Dr. Moreau" was inspired by the author as some of the info around the Japanese experiments leaked out after the war. While the book is pure fiction, it followed the premise that some of the experiments were more successful than was publicized.

Pretty gross stuff if you ask me. Besides the genetic angle, I believe they also tried grafting parts surgically from one animal to another. As well as horrific biological / germ warfare stuff.

Last edited by John Humbert; 05/08/13 04:22 AM.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4243118 05/09/13 02:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 29,603
S
Sneaky Online Content
THF Celebrity
Online Content
THF Celebrity
S
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 29,603
My first deer was an old buck with spots on his rump. I think his were from old age.

Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4243370 05/09/13 04:18 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2
L
loboshe Offline OP
Green Horn
OP Offline
Green Horn
L
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2
Thanks everyone.

I'll check for a stripe down his back. He was also lighter in color throughout the body than the whitetails he was trying to be with (but who kept chasing him away). His hair was rough looking instead of 'smooth and pretty' like the white tails. His spots start about the middle of his body upward.

I'll also see if I can tell if it's a male or female. Have a mounted, nighttime and daytime camera that takes movement photos, but haven't caught it yet.

Monte

P.S. I found this interesting: "If you see a deer that has spots like an axis, but horns like a WT. I would look for the telltail black stripe in axis coloration. If it missing, you have a whitetail with aberrant coloration. If it is present, then you have an axis with aberrant antler configuration."

Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: John Humbert] #4243401 05/09/13 04:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 19,498
E
Erathkid Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
E
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 19,498
Originally Posted By: John Humbert
I doubt it is a cross. But if you see one, don't look at spots - look for the black stripe running down the back.

As I said, MUCH more likely aberrant color on a whitetail. I was reading somewhere that as a fawn grows it increases a hormone or enzyme that causes the spots to disappear off the coat. If the deer has certain dietary deficits it can inhibit the production if the chemical and deer will retain the spots later than normal, even as fawn reaches its first year. But then it generally corrects itself.

However, there was a pic posted right here on this forum that a full grown deer that had retained its spots.

So far as crosses between species, it just doesn't happen. Mixing of chromosomes just doesn't work in nature. While egg fertilization is possible, it doesn't grow. Yes, there are cases where the BEGINS to develop, but generally cannot produce the required biochemistry to continue and it is reabsorbed by the body after a very short time. The body realizes it not working. In VERY rare cases the egg continues to grow in some bizarre blob of protoplasm that can hardly be considered an animal.

In even rarer cases where the gestation period is small, like rats, and recombinant DNA is not to bizarre, a fetus may be carried to term - but they are usually born dead or die after the blob is born. There is bizarre exhibition of human fetuses in Japan as the result of experimentation during WWII.

Still more bizarre, although more "common", is the case of parthenogenesis. This is phenomena where an unfertilized egg develops into a full and complete animal but with only half the normal chromosomes. This can be naturally or artificially induced. In some cases, just the 'pricking' of the outer sheath of an ovum triggers the start of cell reproduction and development of a zygote. This is accomplished in the laboratory with a needle, and sometimes in nature by the penetration of the ovum of a spermatozoa of a dissimilar species.

In the case of parthenogenesis, a full animal is produced, born, and can live a normal lifespan. However, they can never reproduce and are always males (if I remember correctly). This has been demonstrated in just every species of fish, birds, insects, AND mammals.

In fact, all male honey bees only have half the chromosomes of female bees. And the 'haploid' grass carp produced only have half the number of chromosomes. Haploid cells actually means that.
Thank you Mr. Wizard...J/K John.


Life is too short, as is. Don't chance it.
Don't text and drive.
Re: A Whaxis or an Axtail---cross between Axis and White Tail! [Re: Erathkid] #4245457 05/10/13 01:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 391
A
Axisking Offline
Bird Dog
Offline
Bird Dog
A
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 391
How big are the antlers and what growth stage?

If young or not hard horned could possibly be a spotted fallow buck

Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

© 2004-2024 OUTDOOR SITES NETWORK all rights reserved USA and Worldwide
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3