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Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? #4144043 03/25/13 02:29 PM
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jorge Offline OP
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As some of y'all may have read I'm trying to do this the most affordable way possible. I have wondered if buying the great grandson of "x" buck is really worth the cost or buying deer that aren't necessarily of a particular bloodline stock but have good antlers? I'm not looking for bucks that are monsters I imagine any way I cut it that's just out of my budget. But 170 or less would make me happy for now. In fact a decent herd of 140-150 would be great.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: jorge] #4144095 03/25/13 02:48 PM
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Jorge, I think you've already got it figured out. Good luck.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: Erathkid] #4144104 03/25/13 02:51 PM
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The reason I post this is I have seen guys on some of the ranches I outfit for drop some serious cash on bucks that had all the right blood lines and they did everything right and never pan out. At the same time I've seen guys just by a good looking buck that isn't from some established breeder or doe and do spectacular for a fraction of the cost. I know where I can get them but I'm curious as to what experiences others have had and why they chose the route they did.


Jorge Sakai
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GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

"Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."


Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: jorge] #4144688 03/25/13 06:19 PM
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I've gotten some bred does out of what I know to be good bloodlines. Does carry 50% of the genetics and alot less of a price tag, plus they are less likely to die from rut-related activites than a buck is.

140 inch genetics should be fairly easy to achieve, given proper nutrition and age.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: jorge] #4144742 03/25/13 06:39 PM
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That is why I've always believed that all the ads showing "Record Breaking 1 1/2 year old @200" is nonsense because these deer are pen raised deer that live a stress free life compared to wild deer that are stressed out big time in a variety of ways.
Originally Posted By: jorge
The reason I post this is I have seen guys on some of the ranches I outfit for drop some serious cash on bucks that had all the right blood lines and they did everything right and never pan out. At the same time I've seen guys just by a good looking buck that isn't from some established breeder or doe and do spectacular for a fraction of the cost. I know where I can get them but I'm curious as to what experiences others have had and why they chose the route they did.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: txtrophy85] #4144745 03/25/13 06:39 PM
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To me what would be more important than the pedigree would be how the bucks looked that are in the same age class as the does. If they still have the bucks to look at, then I would want to see how many bucks were big,average, or sub-average/culls. I would want does from a breeding year and bloodline where the all the bucks were acceptable to me or better. Pedigree on deer is nothing but a paper trail and does not guarantee big offspring. It improves you chances and makes you feel better.
What is also important is how the deer do when released into a pasture situation. Survival rates are what is more important than pedigree. If the ranch is turning loose bucks what % get better when left to grow and breed in the wild? What % stay the same? What % drop way off on antler growth or die? I would ask who has bought deer from them to release and then call those folks to see how those deer did for them and what they raised in the pasture for them. You can also utilize a soft release pen to help deer adapt from a pen to pasture. I would look at bred does vs bucks to buy and release. You can get more for you $ invested. The does can live and breed for years the bucks not as long. The offspring the doe carry inside them are what you really want also. I would work on predators ahead of time for any release of deer onto a new place.
For the money I would look at the TTT program that allows ranches to get a permit to pull off doe numbers to achieve CC. This allows you to get some really good genetics off of managed ranches in your area a lot of times for the costs of catching and moving deer. I would look for a ranch that has lots of good deer. Then look at management-past to present. How the cull, what age they shoot trophies, scores, and the amount of 5x5 or better deer as % of the herd. Then look at supplemental feeding, food plots, etc so the deer will adapt to your ranch for success.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #4144753 03/25/13 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
That is why I've always believed that all the ads showing "Record Breaking 1 1/2 year old @200" is nonsense because these deer are pen raised deer that live a stress free life compared to wild deer that are stressed out big time in a variety of ways.
Originally Posted By: jorge
The reason I post this is I have seen guys on some of the ranches I outfit for drop some serious cash on bucks that had all the right blood lines and they did everything right and never pan out. At the same time I've seen guys just by a good looking buck that isn't from some established breeder or doe and do spectacular for a fraction of the cost. I know where I can get them but I'm curious as to what experiences others have had and why they chose the route they did.

That level of "stress" is in how the deer are handled or raised. If the breeder that has brushy to thick pens with good browse and maybe even a food plot then the deer will do better in the wild than others without. The reason that deer do not do well when going from a pen to pasture is in the rumen health. Browse or alfalfa hay keeps the rumen healthy. Pens with brush vs pens with bare dirt ground are the difference in success or failure when trying to release to improve pasture deer.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: stxranchman] #4144766 03/25/13 06:47 PM
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What do bred does like that go for?


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: BenBob] #4144770 03/25/13 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: BenBob
What do bred does like that go for?

TTT?


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: BenBob] #4144787 03/25/13 06:53 PM
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stxranchman always great advice. I'm curious as to how the TTT program works exactly. As I understand it I can go get native deer from ranches and transport them legally. It seems really similar to what my father in law has as far as a deer breeders permit. Thanks!


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: txtrophy85] #4144807 03/25/13 06:59 PM
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A sample of genes comes from the sire and dam to
form the new individual. There is a segregation and
recombination of genes, so no two offspring from the
same parents are genetically the same. An animal
that gains superior to others in the herd just happened to receive more of the favorable growth genes. Without buying a proven buck, or have some kind of herd record keeping comparison for specific favorable traits, or performance facts, it's a 'luck of the draw' purchase, even on the higher cost of pedigreed stock.

Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: talkturkey] #4144821 03/25/13 07:03 PM
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Thank you Mrs. Stade I'm still waiting on those Pmags from brownells for you.


Jorge Sakai
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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: jorge] #4144824 03/25/13 07:06 PM
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You can look on the TPWD site for the info on how it works. It is paperwork on both the catch site and release site to get it done. Both need to qualify to get it done. Your local TPWD biologist can help you get the paperwork started. This is completely different than a breeder permit. I would much rather have wild reared deer than pen deer released into a pasture. Also when getting deer to improve or change the genetics the key is to get enough deer to release. You need more doe to release than what is on the ranch to impact or change the genetics. Releasing 4 or 5 high $ pen does into a pasture full of native deer is a waste of money. Those few deer will have no impact on the genetics in a few years after they are gone. By 10 yrs or so their genetics will be bred out by the native deer. You will have wasted the money on bandaids to fix a gaping wound IMO. With TTT you can get a lot of deer at a lower costs. The key is needing enough deer and not to effect CC in a bad way. Just remember anything you bring in in high numbers will effect what you have to shoot in the future. You will have to shoot some deer someday to keep pop numbers down. So either you shoot deer you brought in and paid for or you shoot their offspring that are not tagged.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: jorge] #4144830 03/25/13 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: jorge
Thank you Mrs. Stade I'm still waiting on those Pmags from brownells for you.


I guess yelling at you again about that "Mrs." stuff, just ain't going to do any good.

In short, ditto what stxranchman said (and on any production animal)... "Pedigree on deer is nothing but a paper trail and does not guarantee big offspring."

Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: stxranchman] #4144852 03/25/13 07:19 PM
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sure Amos needs to rid of a few does


Originally Posted By: stxranchman
You can look on the TPWD site for the info on how it works. It is paperwork on both the catch site and release site to get it done. Both need to qualify to get it done. Your local TPWD biologist can help you get the paperwork started. This is completely different than a breeder permit. I would much rather have wild reared deer than pen deer released into a pasture. Also when getting deer to improve or change the genetics the key is to get enough deer to release. You need more doe to release than what is on the ranch to impact or change the genetics. Releasing 4 or 5 high $ pen does into a pasture full of native deer is a waste of money. Those few deer will have no impact on the genetics in a few years after they are gone. By 10 yrs or so their genetics will be bred out by the native deer. You will have wasted the money on bandaids to fix a gaping wound IMO. With TTT you can get a lot of deer at a lower costs. The key is needing enough deer and not to effect CC in a bad way. Just remember anything you bring in in high numbers will effect what you have to shoot in the future. You will have to shoot some deer someday to keep pop numbers down. So either you shoot deer you brought in and paid for or you shoot their offspring that are not tagged.


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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: stxranchman] #4146514 03/26/13 01:25 PM
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Thanks for the info, very interesting.
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
That is why I've always believed that all the ads showing "Record Breaking 1 1/2 year old @200" is nonsense because these deer are pen raised deer that live a stress free life compared to wild deer that are stressed out big time in a variety of ways.
Originally Posted By: jorge
The reason I post this is I have seen guys on some of the ranches I outfit for drop some serious cash on bucks that had all the right blood lines and they did everything right and never pan out. At the same time I've seen guys just by a good looking buck that isn't from some established breeder or doe and do spectacular for a fraction of the cost. I know where I can get them but I'm curious as to what experiences others have had and why they chose the route they did.

That level of "stress" is in how the deer are handled or raised. If the breeder that has brushy to thick pens with good browse and maybe even a food plot then the deer will do better in the wild than others without. The reason that deer do not do well when going from a pen to pasture is in the rumen health. Browse or alfalfa hay keeps the rumen healthy. Pens with brush vs pens with bare dirt ground are the difference in success or failure when trying to release to improve pasture deer.


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www.insured-wealth.com
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Re: Pedigree wt vs non pedigree wt???? [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #4147255 03/26/13 05:54 PM
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Do the pedigreed ones taste any better than the regular low-fence texas ranch bucks??? L.O.L. !!!


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