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Gun dog videos #4101049 03/05/13 04:12 PM
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I know there will be different thoughts on this but I have a 4 month old lab make puppy that will be my duck/dove dog. I am new to dog training and labs in general so i was looking into dog videos to help me train my pup.

What would yall suggest? Does anyone have any used videos i could buy?


Re: Gun dog videos [Re: Cypress Legend] #4101219 03/05/13 05:27 PM
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Personally, I like the philosophies and methods of Richard Wolters, Robert Milner and Wild Rose Kennels. You will get a wide range of suggestions here, so you might want to qualify what you want to accomplish and if you know, what style of training you would prefer to use. I like a more 'natural' method that approaches training from the canine perspective, using canine logic. Others use a something more "systematic" which leans more toward a human logic & perspective with a focus more on "conditioning" the dog over "communicating" with it.



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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: IronSpikeLabs] #4101487 03/05/13 07:23 PM
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Its been my experience that all dogs, no matter which DVD, can not keep their attention focused much longer than about three minutes and they quit watching.....

Get Fowl Dawgs 1 and 2 and you will have a dog that can do what you need to hunt as well as be a successful competitor, look at Hillman as well.

I prefer material that shows you an actual pup going through the exact same thing you are about to with your pup, not a fully trained dog showing you what its known for years.

Last edited by ShotGunWillie; 03/05/13 07:23 PM.
Re: Gun dog videos [Re: ShotGunWillie] #4101530 03/05/13 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: ShotGunWillie
Its been my experience that all dogs, no matter which DVD, can not keep their attention focused much longer than about three minutes and they quit watching.....


rofl



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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: ShotGunWillie] #4101558 03/05/13 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: ShotGunWillie

I prefer material that shows you an actual pup going through the exact same thing you are about to with your pup, not a fully trained dog showing you what its known for years.


I agree. What's lacking are videos of the trials, errors and failures. I've found that people expect so much of their dogs because mostly the successes and finished products are seen, but it takes a lot of work to get there. As a result, on our YouTube channel, we've begun to post up less-than-perfect drills so folks can see that the ups and downs they and their dogs experience are all perfectly normal.



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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: IronSpikeLabs] #4101630 03/05/13 08:13 PM
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If you have watched the Fowl Dawgs series, especially the Force Fetch, you see the struggles, body language, avoidance, and compliance of a retriever during the process. You see the beginning, middle, and end of this process. Before this video series came out I was very hesitant concerning Force Fetch for doing it myself.

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: IronSpikeLabs] #4101634 03/05/13 08:15 PM
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You will get much better results by not using Wolters, Milner or Wildrose. Those videos are ok for someone who wants a very basic retriever. If you want a dog that runs nice blinds and handles well, you should look into Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Training videos. They provide a step by step plan for training your dog. What was said about conditioning over communicating is so off base it's not even funny. I can tell you this, you won't find many dogs at a field trial or hunt test that were trained using the Wolters, Milner or Wildrose philosophies, because they are outdated and not as complete as a modern day Rex Carr based system. The Fowl Dog series is good if you want to save a little cash but nowhere near as good as Mike Lardy's. Watch some field trial dogs run a 300 yard water blind and you will know what communicating with a dog is all about, it's the ultimate form of team work between dog and handler. Most people are ignorant to the Rex Carr based programs and don't understand how they work and therefore view them as "mean", "cruel" or "conditioning rather than communicating" the proof is in the pudding and the Wolters, Milner and Wildrose pudding does not taste as good as my Rex Carr recipe.

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: ShotGunWillie] #4101638 03/05/13 08:16 PM
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Im going to look into it. Does anyone have any videos they need to get rid of? I can pay pal some money over for them.

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: ShotGunWillie] #4101640 03/05/13 08:16 PM
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I should have added a disclaimer to the "you will have a dog that can do what you need it to do blah blah blah"

The dog/pup has to bring as much to the table as the trainer. If the dog was not bred to perform at a certain level, then there is only so much that dog will do or is capable of doing. Brains, desire, drive, and ability have to brought 100% by both sides (trainer and dog).

If you don't have the confidence in your ability, seek out assistance from either a hunting retriever training group/club or a pro in your area.

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: ShotGunWillie] #4101674 03/05/13 08:28 PM
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He is very birdy and has a great "want to please" attitude. His parents were great competitors. I just need to learn how to train him correctly.

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: huck18] #4101681 03/05/13 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: huck18
You will get much better results by not using Wolters, Milner or Wildrose. Those videos are ok for someone who wants a very basic retriever. If you want a dog that runs nice blinds and handles well, you should look into Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Training videos. They provide a step by step plan for training your dog. What was said about conditioning over communicating is so off base it's not even funny. I can tell you this, you won't find many dogs at a field trial or hunt test that were trained using the Wolters, Milner or Wildrose philosophies, because they are outdated and not as complete as a modern day Rex Carr based system. The Fowl Dog series is good if you want to save a little cash but nowhere near as good as Mike Lardy's. Watch some field trial dogs run a 300 yard water blind and you will know what communicating with a dog is all about, it's the ultimate form of team work between dog and handler. Most people are ignorant to the Rex Carr based programs and don't understand how they work and therefore view them as "mean", "cruel" or "conditioning rather than communicating" the proof is in the pudding and the Wolters, Milner and Wildrose pudding does not taste as good as my Rex Carr recipe.


As I said, you will get a lot of differing opinions. Now, some of us have room in our world for there to be a variety of ways to train dogs and some of us think that anything outside of their preferred method is *fill in your litany of negative, uncompromising, limited viewpoint comments here.*

It is true you won't see many (if any) dogs at field trials trained using the method I suggested - they use the "system" I mentioned. And you won't find too many at hunt tests (American, that is, as opposed to British), either. Does this mean the dog's performance is subpar? OR is it merely a reflection of the owner/handler's preferences and interests?

But that takes us right back to my initial opening comment, doesn't it? To think about how YOU want to interact with YOUR dog. It's not a matter of right/wrong, good/bad, or even competition and comparing your dog to others or a 'standard.' Owning, enjoying and appreciating your dog and your hunting & life companion is all about what YOU want. And THAT is a matter of personal preference and the experience you want to have with your dog.



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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: IronSpikeLabs] #4101851 03/05/13 09:24 PM
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Yes there are a variety of ways of training a dog but without a doubt some are better than others. Since I have read and watched everything you mentioned and trained dogs both ways, I can give my opinion which is actually based on experience not just talk. The OP asked for advice an training videos so I gave him my opinion on what the best is as well as my opinion that the others were inferior. It is all about what YOU want as you said but I believe most people want the best. What's best is all a matter of opinion but if the OP does his homework he will find that the majority of opinions from people who train dogs to a high level will steer him in the direction I pointed. Besides Mike Lardys videos my second best would be the Fowl Dogs series and third best would be Smart Works by Evan Graham.

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: huck18] #4101892 03/05/13 09:39 PM
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PM sent. I have Wolters dvd you can borrow

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: jr22dad] #4102244 03/05/13 11:51 PM
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My comments tend to be based on experience rather than "just talk", as well. 400+ videos on YouTube and countless puppies turning into hunting dogs says something must be working. As for dogs handling at 300+ yards... This is Rusty. He's never been force fetched and was trained using the methods I subscribe to. Yes, the proof certainly IS in the pudding.




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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: IronSpikeLabs] #4102326 03/06/13 12:35 AM
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These guys all have great suggestions..and mostly from expierence. I still think that most good dogs will make great dogs if hunted/and you kill birds over them...that's the Main Ingredient..My Dad was as good as ever I saw on training and he said more dogs have been ruined by too much correction and not nearly enough hunting..most will train themselves if you kill birds over them and compliment them for their correct responses.
I saw a guy w/an extremely expensive young Pointer get upset, whip the dog over a puppy error..and he never hunted again..DD

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: Don Dial] #4102385 03/06/13 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: Don Dial
These guys all have great suggestions..and mostly from expierence. I still think that most good dogs will make great dogs if hunted/and you kill birds over them...that's the Main Ingredient..My Dad was as good as ever I saw on training and he said more dogs have been ruined by too much correction and not nearly enough hunting..most will train themselves if you kill birds over them and compliment them for their correct responses.
I saw a guy w/an extremely expensive young Pointer get upset, whip the dog over a puppy error..and he never hunted again..DD


Well said.



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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: IronSpikeLabs] #4102477 03/06/13 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: IronSpikeLabs
This is Rusty. He's never been force fetched and was trained using the methods I subscribe to. Yes, the proof certainly IS in the pudding.




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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: huck18] #4103097 03/06/13 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: huck18
You will get much better results by not using Wolters, Milner or Wildrose. Those videos are ok for someone who wants a very basic retriever. If you want a dog that runs nice blinds and handles well, you should look into Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Training videos. They provide a step by step plan for training your dog. What was said about conditioning over communicating is so off base it's not even funny. I can tell you this, you won't find many dogs at a field trial or hunt test that were trained using the Wolters, Milner or Wildrose philosophies, because they are outdated and not as complete as a modern day Rex Carr based system. The Fowl Dog series is good if you want to save a little cash but nowhere near as good as Mike Lardy's. Watch some field trial dogs run a 300 yard water blind and you will know what communicating with a dog is all about, it's the ultimate form of team work between dog and handler. Most people are ignorant to the Rex Carr based programs and don't understand how they work and therefore view them as "mean", "cruel" or "conditioning rather than communicating" the proof is in the pudding and the Wolters, Milner and Wildrose pudding does not taste as good as my Rex Carr recipe.


x2 Gary,,, This program works on all breeds and is extremely successful. You are a testament to that with your boykin Hank.

If I have to train one more Wildrose dog of nothing pedigree that can't find find a pork chop in a phone booth I'll throw up. Wildrose is a marketing tool that's very successful. Unfortunately I have to train the results of that marketing push. *sigh*

Dog training is a head game that requires a lot of time and do diligence. No quick and happy results.

But it is a very rewarding experience!!!

Angie

Last edited by Angie B; 03/06/13 04:29 AM.

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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: Angie B] #4103251 03/06/13 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: Angie B
If I have to train one more Wildrose dog of nothing pedigree that can't find find a pork chop in a phone booth I'll throw up. Wildrose is a marketing tool that's very successful. Unfortunately I have to train the results of that marketing push. *sigh*

Angie


Thanks for sharing, Angie. Poor you *sigh*... I was turning down Wildrose dogs when I was too maxed out to take on new trainees. Now with my brother on board, I'm all caught up and can take on more dogs again.

Tell you what... send those "throw up" dogs to me - I find them easy to train - and I'll stop letting my overbookings fill your kennels with vomitous substances. rofl

BTW, don't use pork chops - that's not too terribly helpful unless you plan on hunting hogs - just a tip. wink




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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: IronSpikeLabs] #4103450 03/06/13 01:45 PM
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Couldn't resist!!
From the latest D.U. mag article titled 'Communicating With Your Retriever', Jack is telling me that he understands and accepts my instruction(s). This from Wildrose Kennels.

I'm not a pro, however, the dogs we trained in the military were not trained w/e-collar. We sent them out to bite and hold (no ff) and called them out and heel. Point being, there are different time proven methods.

Jack @ 14mo just got his 1st started pass @ HRC hunt test 2 weeks ago. My training consisted of past military experience w/some Wolters ideas.

To the OP, you've got the right idea by asking questions, just sort out your particular wants and wishes and see whose philosophies/training fit w/you and your dog the best. Good luck and above ALL else have fun!!


"Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."
Re: Gun dog videos [Re: Ol_Yeller] #4103803 03/06/13 03:58 PM
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http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/...747382939bdc767

Check out the link to the Retriever Training Forum. All of this has been asked several times and you will get many opinions. But the RTF is a good place to start, and its a dedicated retriever training site. You will get much better info there than you will here.

Re: Gun dog videos [Re: huck18] #4104053 03/06/13 05:35 PM
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To the original poster - you wanted gun dog training videos so here is my recommendation; Chris Akin's Duck Dog Basics I & II. Many of the other videos mentioned here are expensive and could be overkill for what you are trying to do. Now, having said that I would recommend checking out the material on these other videos and making that determination for yourself.

As for the other comments in this thread; I've seen many professionally trained dogs that I wouldn't hunt with however their clients pay for and accept it. The thing we all have to remember is everyone has their own opinion of what a great dog is. For everyone that says their dog is awesome, there are three or four other folks with dogs that are much better. Most folks don't know the potential that can be developed because they've never seen it. For me, many of the programs mentioned above have consistently proven they don't/can't produce the quality of dog I want. Someone else may be happy with the dogs produced by these training programs but I'm not.


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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: huck18] #4105388 03/07/13 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: huck18
You will get much better info there than you will here.



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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: Greg] #4105485 03/07/13 02:54 AM
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Just pick a program where you have someone local that can help you with your dog.

Wildrose pro's are few and far between.. If they even exist... Yes Dawn can help you but no one else will. Believe me...

Most pro's use the standardized programs for a reason. Continuity... I can take a Mike Lardy programed dog, an Evan Graham programed dog, a blah, blah, blah, professionally trained dog,, And help you train your dog.

The Wildrose dogs live in their own world.. That program is not in sync with the rest of the successful retriever programs out there. IMHO

Dawn,,, If I can't clean up the trainwrecks I get on that program I WILL send them to you..

You go Girl!!!

Angie


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Re: Gun dog videos [Re: Greg] #4105548 03/07/13 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: Greg
Originally Posted By: huck18
You will get much better info there than you will here.



Not really,,, that site hit the tank about a year ago. But you can do a search and some really well respected people did offer wonderful insight. Many well established retriever people nationally...

I'm having a problem with the black guy in a boat.. I do think it's racially inappropriate. He's formatted in such a bad light...

Angie


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