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Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? #4052635 02/14/13 02:37 PM
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My CPA is allowing me to deduct the cost of our deer lease as "Rent" on a LLC Schedule K-1 statement.

Here is my reasoning. I operate a gun-related business. We lease part of a large ranch for testing guns and optics. The ranch has a formal gun range for bench work plus we real-world performance test on deer and hogs. We also invite industry-types to come down and demonstrate their new products. Obviously you can't easily test guns in a regular office building or warehouse - thus the ranch "rent."

We are claiming "Rent" much as if we leased a building in town or leased a gun range. The ranch is where we conduct our business.

We don't claim it as "Entertainment" due to this IRS statement, "Business is generally not considered to be the main purpose when business and entertainment are combined on hunting or fishing trips, or on yachts or other pleasure boats. Even if you show that business was the main purpose, you generally cannot deduct the expenses for the use of an entertainment facility"

I'm sure lots of guys on here have corporate or business-related leases. How do you handle it with the IRS?


Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Kingpin] #4052769 02/14/13 03:11 PM
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I knew a guy who got real creative with his taxes. It all went good till one day it got real bad.


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Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: redchevy] #4052825 02/14/13 03:33 PM
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Are you leasing the whole ranch or just the range? I think you would need to have a separate lease agreement for the gun range and only use it for business. No way would the IRS let that pass the sniff test unless they looked the other way. Many CPAs say claim it until they question it. I could sell pencils out of my garage but I could not claim my yard as tax deduction.

Btw, that statement from the IRS contradicts why you said you don't claim it as entertainment. It is telling you must claim it as entertainment, not business.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Txduckman] #4052864 02/14/13 03:41 PM
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If you're audited by the IRS, you're going to have to demonstrate that the deer lease is used exclusively for business purposes and they're going to want to see records indicating such. Some people put their home rent on their tax returns because they work 10 hours a week from their home office.

As someone said, it works great. Until it doesn't. The penalties are stiff and you will have flagged yourself for life for increased audits if it turns out the IRS doesn't agree with your stance.

That said, it sounds like you do use at least some of the lease for business purpose. I'd be really careful to make sure you're not just talking yourself into deducting it because it sounds good in your head.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: cameron00] #4052907 02/14/13 03:55 PM
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I think the IRS specifically excludes hunting leases as valid entertainment deductions (Going on memory that isn't as good as it used to be). The fact that the OP uses his lease to actually conduct his business would likely make a portion of the lease deductible. My guess is that the IRS would reduce the deduction to reflect the business use vs. the actual hunting portion.

JR

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: jrgocards] #4052914 02/14/13 04:00 PM
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Well Kingpin, I'm no cpa but I agree with Duckman, only using the "gun range"part, and even that may be questionable from a IRS audit point of view. You just may become Kingpin alright, of cell-block A!


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Dryberry Lake Sioux Narrows, Ontario, Canada (a.k.a. Heaven)
Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: sillyhorses] #4052944 02/14/13 04:08 PM
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Go see a really good tax man, estate planner, financial advisor and they'll likely know what will get flagged for your zipcode. I'm not sure a gun business would be as helpful as something like a cattle company on deducting the entire property.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: rifleman] #4053153 02/14/13 05:29 PM
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Food for thought - if you claim the rent, even if you can do it strictly kosher and legal. Your deduction of rent means the landowner must be showing it as income.

You could trigger an audit of the landowner - which might not make him very happy. You could end up causing problems for EVERYONE.

If I was the landowner and one of my lessee tried that, and it ended with me getting audited, perhaps having to pay back taxes and penalties - that would be last time I dealt with the lessees and maybe leasing my land at all.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4053182 02/14/13 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: John Humbert
Food for thought - if you claim the rent, even if you can do it strictly kosher and legal. Your deduction of rent means the landowner must be showing it as income.

You could trigger an audit of the landowner - which might not make him very happy. You could end up causing problems for EVERYONE.

If I was the landowner and one of my lessee tried that, and it ended with me getting audited, perhaps having to pay back taxes and penalties - that would be last time I dealt with the lessees and maybe leasing my land at all.


True dat!

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4053183 02/14/13 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: John Humbert
Food for thought - if you claim the rent, even if you can do it strictly kosher and legal. Your deduction of rent means the landowner must be showing it as income.

You could trigger an audit of the landowner - which might not make him very happy. You could end up causing problems for EVERYONE.

If I was the landowner and one of my lessee tried that, and it ended with me getting audited, perhaps having to pay back taxes and penalties - that would be last time I dealt with the lessees and maybe leasing my land at all.


True dat!

The lady we used to lease from always told us that if anyone but me asks how much you pay to hunt here you just tell them I like you and let you hunt here.


It's hell eatin em live
Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4053195 02/14/13 05:43 PM
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I work out of my home. By the lease logic, I could claim my entire home as a deduction, but in reality, all I could claim (and I don't) is the small area of my home office. As my accountant noted, such deductions are red flags. They may not be wrong, but often garner extra scrutiny (audits) that nobody wants.

I would not try to claim the entire deer lease just because you sometimes test guns on a gun range that is undoubtedly only a very small fraction of the entire lease.


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Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4053336 02/14/13 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: John Humbert
Food for thought - if you claim the rent, even if you can do it strictly kosher and legal. Your deduction of rent means the landowner must be showing it as income.

You could trigger an audit of the landowner - which might not make him very happy. You could end up causing problems for EVERYONE.

If I was the landowner and one of my lessee tried that, and it ended with me getting audited, perhaps having to pay back taxes and penalties - that would be last time I dealt with the lessees and maybe leasing my land at all.

My assumption is that he must claim it as income. Regardless of how I categorize it (or don't) it is income to the ranch owner. A hunter pays a landowner a lease payment it is income to the landowner and must be reported as income.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Double Naught Spy] #4053359 02/14/13 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Double Naught Spy
I work out of my home. By the lease logic, I could claim my entire home as a deduction, but in reality, all I could claim (and I don't) is the small area of my home office. As my accountant noted, such deductions are red flags. They may not be wrong, but often garner extra scrutiny (audits) that nobody wants.

I would not try to claim the entire deer lease just because you sometimes test guns on a gun range that is undoubtedly only a very small fraction of the entire lease.



X2 We closed in a garage and built my wife an office that we do claim on our taxes. She does have a separate entrance, a plaque outside her door with her name and companies name, and it is solely her office and nothing more. We were audited by the IRS a couple years ago and they approved everything. I would rethink taking the entire lease off. Good luck tho.




Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4053437 02/14/13 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: John Humbert
Food for thought - if you claim the rent, even if you can do it strictly kosher and legal. Your deduction of rent means the landowner must be showing it as income.

You could trigger an audit of the landowner - which might not make him very happy. You could end up causing problems for EVERYONE.

If I was the landowner and one of my lessee tried that, and it ended with me getting audited, perhaps having to pay back taxes and penalties - that would be last time I dealt with the lessees and maybe leasing my land at all.


So it's your fault that he didn't pay his taxes?? How stupid would it be to discontinue leasing because you got audited and had to pay taxes? Equivalent to saying - I won't take the dollar because I would have to pay 20 cents in taxes.

JR

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Kingpin] #4053481 02/14/13 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Kingpin
Originally Posted By: John Humbert
Food for thought - if you claim the rent, even if you can do it strictly kosher and legal. Your deduction of rent means the landowner must be showing it as income.

You could trigger an audit of the landowner - which might not make him very happy. You could end up causing problems for EVERYONE.

If I was the landowner and one of my lessee tried that, and it ended with me getting audited, perhaps having to pay back taxes and penalties - that would be last time I dealt with the lessees and maybe leasing my land at all.

My assumption is that he must claim it as income. Regardless of how I categorize it (or don't) it is income to the ranch owner. A hunter pays a landowner a lease payment it is income to the landowner and must be reported as income.


I havent hunted on the BIG leases like many on here have, but not a single one of the deer leases I have ever been on turned in their lease mone as income, it was a cash deal.


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Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: redchevy] #4053615 02/14/13 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Originally Posted By: Kingpin
Originally Posted By: John Humbert
Food for thought - if you claim the rent, even if you can do it strictly kosher and legal. Your deduction of rent means the landowner must be showing it as income.

You could trigger an audit of the landowner - which might not make him very happy. You could end up causing problems for EVERYONE.

If I was the landowner and one of my lessee tried that, and it ended with me getting audited, perhaps having to pay back taxes and penalties - that would be last time I dealt with the lessees and maybe leasing my land at all.

My assumption is that he must claim it as income. Regardless of how I categorize it (or don't) it is income to the ranch owner. A hunter pays a landowner a lease payment it is income to the landowner and must be reported as income.


I havent hunted on the BIG leases like many on here have, but not a single one of the deer leases I have ever been on turned in their lease mone as income, it was a cash deal.



Exactly! I would say that more than 90% of landowner - and lease managers - take the income from leasing hunting rights "under the table". Traditionally always the way it has been - kinda like income from GarageSales. While "technically" the income should be reported in both cases, very few actually do.

But just like GarageSales - where some jackwagon made a deal about on their taxes - the IRS got to looking at the number and dollar volume - along with the cities - and suddenly decided it was worth their while to start cracking down on all those Moms having garage sales. Really affected things with new laws, city ordinance, permits, etc.

There is even more money involved in deer leases. Somebody due something stupid like trying write off the lease cost on the taxes and folks follow suit - then first thing you know the IRS is going to start looking into closely (especially under the current administration) and start going after those nasty farmers and rancher "criminals" who haven't been paying their taxes.

All it will take is a few ranchers get burned by that, and the whole idea of leasing will change. Taxes and penalties are severe on back taxes. For example, lets say a land owner has been getting $10,000/yr for his 1000 acres and has been doing it for 20 years. IRS comes after him and claims he owes taxes on $200,000 of unreported income. With the base taxes, interests, and penalties - he nows owes the IRS more than a million dollars (very conservatively). He ends up losing his ranch - all because some nimrod tried to claim his lease as an expense. The rancher's neighbors hear what happen - and figure it's not worth the risk of some lessee playing tax games - and decides he is not going to lease anymore. Then regular as dominos other ranchers follow suit - or go through the complicated process of getting/giving receipts for lease payments - which jacks up the cost of the lease.

Next thing you know, leases are either sky-high even more than they are now - and most land is simply not available to lease anymore.

Just because some jackwagon wanted to see if he could save a few hundred bucks on his taxes.

And to whose who say - "why should I be responsible if the landowner doesn't pay his taxes or reports income?" - let me remind you that leasing is a PRIVILEDGE granted by the land owner, and you have should have respect for him and cater to his desire to keep things private. When you put your desire to scam saving a few bucks off your taxes ahead of the private arrangement with the landowner, you become selfish and not welcome.

Remember, most ranchers/farmers probably claim there lease income from grazing, etc. but most do not claim hunting lease income. This is because often the "lease" is managed through a ramrod and not the landowner directly. This adds a level of complexity for tracking/reporting income - as the lease manager/ramrod needs to report the income share himself. Most ramrods aren't making that much money - certainly not a career income - they aren't going to turn 20-30% over to the government - especially for all the cr-p they have to deal with. It won't be worth it to them - so again, prices will go up or land taken off the lease market.

I betcha if you even MENTIONED what you are thinking of doing to the land owner, he would kick you off the property so fast it would make your head spin.

Last edited by John Humbert; 02/14/13 08:15 PM.
Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4053690 02/14/13 08:33 PM
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I hear ya' Jonh H., & I agree that maybe all lesee's need to have a "quiet" discussion with their rancher before opening a can of worms.


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Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: sillyhorses] #4053786 02/14/13 09:11 PM
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For the record, this ranch owner treats the deer lease operation as a business, requires a check (not cash) and the check must be made out to the ranch (not him personally).

So, to the name-callers, wow, the whole hunting world is going to come apart because a lessee and lessor are trying to follow the law. And you are mostly worried about getting "caught" versus what is "legal."

Any CPAs out there?

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Kingpin] #4053829 02/14/13 09:27 PM
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Interesting discussion. I have signs on my vehicle so every mile I drive is advertising. If take a prospective client on a hunting trip, I'll be writing that off-period. Generally I try to make all my fun stuff a writeoff in some way. It's not hard to do, just requires some thinking.

I think I understand what John H. is saying-lots of folks don't want attention of any kind. I found a site once that just mentioning sending pics to an archaeologist got me thrown off the place. Then there was the time some crazy little bird decided to make a certain area of Texas a roosting spot and a well-meaning person reported a sighting (not me). That was almost a fiasco...luckily all the trees that particular bird liked suddenly caught fire in a freak lightning storm before the government came in and cordoned everything off as 'habitat'...LOL.

However, to Kingpin's point-if you visit a legitimate business entreprise, and your activity there is a write off on your end, go for it. If they aren't doing their due diligence as a business enterprise it's not your fault!

Do keep close with your CPA though-a small mistake can bring the IRS in with their rectal exam equipment..


"Providence protects children and idiots. I know because I have tested it" -Mark Twain

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Kingpin] #4054225 02/14/13 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Kingpin
For the record, this ranch owner treats the deer lease operation as a business, requires a check (not cash) and the check must be made out to the ranch (not him personally).

So, to the name-callers, wow, the whole hunting world is going to come apart because a lessee and lessor are trying to follow the law. And you are mostly worried about getting "caught" versus what is "legal."

Any CPAs out there?


Good for you Kingpin! I applaude you for being professional! Sincerely.

However, I think you are in the minority. Certainly folks who are tight about their operations, and especially for those where deer leases are a bonafide business, I would hope that they treat it as such.

But there are a LOT of farmers and ranchers who are not in the deer lease business and think of the money from deer leases as just some side cash (and don't tell momma!). More often that not, these landowners don't even have formal lease agreements, lease permits, and the whole "hunting lease" is handled by a trusted friend who simply does it on the side as "lease manager". Many times it is the lease manager, not the land owner, that comes up with the lease rules, etc. This is because the landowner just doesn't want to get involved directly and just prefers to get a little walking around money.

If those types started treating it as a business, keeping reciepts and tracking income - I am willing to be that a lot of them would say it just not worth it to them. It suddenly become "formal" to them. If they did pursue it formally, then they would get more involved, put more rules in place, and almost certainly up the price to cover the additional taxes and headaches of the paperwork - or simply say "sorry, I am not leasing anymore".

The overall result is that we hunters would lose out.

I, personally, would rather keep it informal and private - even on the down low - and get acreage for a few bucks an acre. And maintain a good relationship with the land owner and lease manager.

Before I would try to some gray area tax stuff to get a tax write-off, I would be SURE to talk to the parties involved and make sure my actions wouldn't be against their wishes or put them in a jackpot. Especially if there were other lease members involved. To do something like that to gain a little bit of money personally at the potential expense of others is just unthinkable for me. I would consider it impolite and selfish. But that's me. I wouldn't even bring it up for a few hundred dollars savings.

On the other hand, if I was paying $15,000-$30,000 for a corporate type lease - where the tax saving could be significant, I might talk with the lease manager and landowner about the possibilty and get their feedback.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4054344 02/15/13 12:44 AM
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The sad truth - I'm willing to bet - that most of the hunting lease arrangements in Texas are illegal or poorly setup in some form or fashion.

Properly, a land owner leasing his property for hunting is require to obtain a lease license and report all income. It would also to be prudent to obtain special insurance to cover liability issue, and require all parties to sign waivers, etc.

While waivers are not uncommon, but I personally know of very few that get the proper permits, insurance, or report the income - especially when leasing to family or friends. It is not uncommon to have the whole deal as just a gentleman's agreement.

Wrong? Probably. But that's just the way it is. You pay your money and everyone takes their chances.

I do know a guy who wanted to do everything by-the-book. He had a lawyer draw up a lease agreement to cover all the bases and circumstance that might arise. The end result was a lease agreement that was 22 pages long! He ended up throwing it out and writing one page liability waiver and one page of lease rules with his lease manager and went with that.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: John Humbert] #4054859 02/15/13 03:28 AM
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If I knew how to add that little whistling smiley face I would. Kind of advice I would seek in a conversation covered by the attorney / client privilege - not on a public forum. Just saying.

I have heard from what a guy I used to know's ex-brother in law told me, that there are some people who lease property through one entity they set up as an outfitter/guide service and then charge their primary business for "pay hunts" for business entertainment that remarkably seem to consistently end up right about the 1st entity's total lease/ feeder/corn/fuel, ect. costs for the year. I'm sure this is just rumor and would never actually happen.

P.S. Obama - I personally pay taxes on the hunting rights I lease out, and all other revenue I receive from any source including pennies on the side walk, in fact a pay a little extra to ensure I'm doing my part, because I didn't build this.

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Cannon] #4054908 02/15/13 03:43 AM
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From personal experience I can tell you if you audited this will be disallowed. I am entirely in the firearms business and I this deduction cost me a ton of money and penalties. My X CPA told me that it would be OK.
I now do write off a small percentage of the lease for entertainment but it is less than 25%. Which I can verify if audited again.
Good luck

Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Kingpin] #4057830 02/16/13 09:45 AM
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I would ask Mr CPA if he will sign a contract saying he would take care of all interest and penalties should the IRS come back and disallow the deductions. If he doesn't sign it you don't need to risk the chance. Two things in life that scare me and that's women and the IRS, in that order.


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Re: Claim deer lease as a tax deduction? [Re: Kingpin] #4057833 02/16/13 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Here is my reasoning. I operate a gun-related business. We lease part of a large ranch for testing guns and optics. The ranch has a formal gun range for bench work plus we real-world performance test on deer and hogs. We also invite industry-types to come down and demonstrate their new products. Obviously you can't easily test guns in a regular office building or warehouse - thus the ranch "rent."



If your going to try and claim deer and hog hunting as R&D I suspect your going to run into a little bit of a legal hurdled, but nice try. The good thing is they will either allow it or not, the other good thing is you can settle this before final payment. Just for the record, it's the IRS that allows deduction not your CPA. If you and he make a good argument they just might let it pass but depending on the money involved I'd suggest a tax attorney instead of a CPA.

If you pull it off I may start testing Record Rack and Barnes bullets next year, simply as R&D. I'd also like to hear the feedback when the state of Texas finds out your using the killing of their game animals as a R&D tax deduction that should be interesting.


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