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Whoa breaking a pup #2768460 11/20/11 12:19 AM
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This is how I whoa break my pups. Let us know how you work yours.

First the board. Anything will do, mine is 3/4 in plywood with two 10in pieces of 2x4 as the stand. Don't want it real stable and want it off the ground 4 or 5 inches. A little sway get the pups attention when he first gets on it. Most folks are going to a barrel now but I haven't made the change yet.

I use a suitcase lead that loops around the dogs flanks. You grab it like you would a suitcase and lead the pup up on the board. Most pups will get rowdy when you get them up there the first few times so just stroke them a few times and walk them off. Repeat this every morning 4 or 5 times and you will be surprised how fast they adjust to the board. Soon they will walk on and quit down. Stroke them and if they move pull up on the back of the lead to put pressure on their flanks. Lift their hind legs up off the board to get their attention.

Soon you have him on the board and not moving his feet. I walk away from him with my right hand in the air. I go as far as the pup will let me without moving. The idea is to get him to let you circle him with out moving his feet and to get him used to the hand signal. Next you have him standing on the board so you move him to the ground. I use the suitcase lead here too and walk him away from the board and whoa him lifting the lead just as on the board.

Once he is standing on the ground I go to a lead wrapped around his flanks and snapped to his collar. With the new setup I can still put pressure on his flanks and I can pull him toward me and correct him if he moves. Most important it allows you to let him drift away from you and take his whoa command from farther away.

At this point I would place a training collar around his flanks and stimulate him if he needs correction. This pup has been too easy to break and I haven't used the collar yet. But when you remove the lead the collar will reinforce all he's learned when you move to the field.


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Chet] #2768777 11/20/11 02:54 AM
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I start mine on a whoa post with the lead going back to the post taking a half hitch around his flank before terminating at the collar, and a separate lead running to me. Then progress to him in front of me with me holding the lead that had been looped around the whoa post. So I am the mobile whoa post. From there, to a flank collar. Then finally the training collar moved to his neck. That last picture is a dandy! Great looking point on that pup!


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Pointer] #2768857 11/20/11 03:34 AM
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I used to raise liver and whites, know you efforts! Looks like great form and whatever you're doing must be working. I used caged birds and I would strike my hat on the ground in front of the dog and say whoa at the same time. It worked pretty well and I would reward the dog for its obedience.




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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Pointer] #2769237 11/20/11 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pointer
I start mine on a whoa post with the lead going back to the post taking a half hitch around his flank before terminating at the collar, and a separate lead running to me. Then progress to him in front of me with me holding the lead that had been looped around the whoa post.


The same, except I use a pinch collar.



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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: reeltexan] #2769340 11/20/11 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: reeltexan
Originally Posted By: Pointer
I start mine on a whoa post with the lead going back to the post taking a half hitch around his flank before terminating at the collar, and a separate lead running to me. Then progress to him in front of me with me holding the lead that had been looped around the whoa post.


The same, except I use a pinch collar.


I'm guessing that if we had a poll your method would be the most used.


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Chet] #2770432 11/20/11 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Chet
Originally Posted By: reeltexan
Originally Posted By: Pointer
I start mine on a whoa post with the lead going back to the post taking a half hitch around his flank before terminating at the collar, and a separate lead running to me. Then progress to him in front of me with me holding the lead that had been looped around the whoa post.


The same, except I use a pinch collar.


I'm guessing that if we had a poll your method would be the most useId.


I start on the whoa post with the e. Colar,and the pinch collar on the same day. I whoa them as puppies before I feed them.



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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: bill oxner] #2770814 11/20/11 11:51 PM
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Never used this method, nice form and NICE lemon birddog. Wish we had birds to justify raising a few.


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: OneShotSam] #2777158 11/22/11 11:56 PM
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I don't understand why this thread didn't get more attention. Whoa is the most important command you can teach a pointing dog. Teach any dog whoa and you have a broke dog, within hearing distance, but like Chet wrote, a lot depends on the dog.



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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: bill oxner] #2777365 11/23/11 01:13 AM
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i guess i am the odd ball. i dont understand why you would tell a dog to stand still other than a stop to flush that hasnt been obeyed. let the birds teach them when to point and whe they shouldnt bump birds. some people seem to turn it into a safety command . dont understand it either. if i dont want my dog to run out in the middle of traffic i use the here command. just like all the other breeds that are trained to respond to the here or come command


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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: blanked] #2777382 11/23/11 01:22 AM
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Very timely advise. I had just decided it was time to whoa brake my DD.
Thanks for the post.



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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: blanked] #2777458 11/23/11 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: blanked
i guess i am the odd ball. i dont understand why you would tell a dog to stand still other than a stop to flush that hasnt been obeyed. let the birds teach them when to point and whe they shouldnt bump birds. some people seem to turn it into a safety command . dont understand it either. if i dont want my dog to run out in the middle of traffic i use the here command. just like all the other breeds that are trained to respond to the here or come command


There have been whole books written about training pointing dogs. The first I ever read was Training Your Own Bird Dog, by Henry P. Davis. It's sort of written from your point of view. "Just let the birds teach the dog to whoa." Other people use launchers to let the birds teach the dog whoa. That takes a lot of birds, and we don't have that many anymore.

All bird dogs point. We're not teaching them to point, by teaching whoa. We're taking a short cut to using all the birds. It depends on the dog, as Chet wrote, but I broke Cracker on 9 flushes, by teaching whoa first.



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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: bill oxner] #2777881 11/23/11 03:54 AM
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what does it mean when you say your taking a short cut to using all the birds


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: blanked] #2781131 11/24/11 01:30 PM
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Since Bill musta drifted off to sleep, I'll try to pick up the slack.
A bird dog with good instincts will, if given enough exposure to wild birds, eventually teach himself that he is not going to catch those birds. So the only way he can continue to keep that wonderfully intoxicating scent in his nose is to stay on point, and not flush the bird or covey. It may take longer with some pups than others, but you can count on it happening.
Most of us don't have access to those numbers of birds anymore, so we use pigeons and launchers for training. The pup scents the bird in the launcher. If he points, fine. As soon as he either breaks point, or charges the launcher, we launch the bird in an attempt to simulate the wild bird's escape.
The command "Whoa" not only augments this process, but is also useful when a dog is not honoring another's point for some reason...either he hasn't seen the other dog, or is ignoring the point in an effort to get scent in his own nose.
I agree with Bill...Other than "here", or in my case "come in", "Whoa!" is THE command that is most useful.


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Pointer] #2781212 11/24/11 02:20 PM
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I didn't drift off to sleep. I figured most people could figure that out. Also, pen raised birds will not teach the dog that they can't catch them. It's in theory only, but teach a pup whoa, and it will not take a step on it's first bird.



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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: bill oxner] #2781411 11/24/11 03:53 PM
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Well okay then....nevermind.


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Pointer] #2781541 11/24/11 04:50 PM
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i guess thats what i am making a point about. dog charges a launcher or takes a step you lanuch the bird. bird flys off and dog learns that he pressured the bird without any interference from the handler. no words need to be said.

now if i am understanding bill he is saying that was a bird that wasnt used since the dog didnt hold point. i dont see it that way .

now my question for you when shouting whoa from a distance or at all how do you keep wild birds from flying off because of the noise your making


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Pointer] #2781572 11/24/11 05:02 PM
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My dad raised many a bird dog after the war, say from the early 50's thru the mid 80's. His theory was to get a pup into the field pretty early. He would. Whoa a dog with a rope. Best I can remember one day the dog got the message. He wouldn't have a dog that wouldn't honor another. Now every now and then he would have a (birddog) pointer that was hard headed. He would cut a limb out of a tree that was full of leaves. He would spank the pup with the limb, he would say whoa up in there.......he told me many times a branch with leaves scared the pup...he always had a older dog to teach them as well....he had a lemon bitch dog one time that, if a dog didn't back her she would tear into those pups.....one time of that, they would get the message. But the big point in those times there were more than plenty of birds. He always said a dog that's any good will make a dog if you get him into birds early. He was slow and patience and never raised his voice. I sure miss those days. Sorry for the long post"........thanks for the space


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: OneShotSam] #2781738 11/24/11 06:16 PM
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Most people now use the term, collar conditioning. I never whoa a dog while hunting. I just nick them. I don't remember the last time I nicked one, except for turning them.

My first pointer must to have busted over 500 coveys, over a 3 year period before she was dependable at holding her birds. I don't remember my last two pointers busting ( intentionally flushing) a covey. I remember both bumping (accidently flushing) one covey their first year.

It's the same with most dogs which have been whoa broke using the e-collar. They're running broke derbies in horseback trials. They're bringing 2 year old dogs to NSTRA, and getting placements with them.



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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: bill oxner] #2781771 11/24/11 06:48 PM
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500 coveys. wow. another thing that i am sure i do different from others especially field trial folks. they always say dont shoot birds over dogs unless they do everything right.

my take on that when pups hunting first year is if i get any point at all out of them i am shooting the bird for them. if pup is pointing and then breaks i shoot the bird. this teaches the pup that you and him are a team and this is what we are after. do that a few times and it all falls into place for pup. waiting for a young pup to do everything right on wild birds before you shoot for them it would take me along time to for them to figure it out. its funny how some dogs know when hunting pen raised birds or wild birds. i can really see the fire in there eyes when on wild birds. there eyeballs are really bulging out of there sockckets. the intensity of the point is much more intense. for me at least training on pen raised birds and moving on to wild birds is like night and day .


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Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: bill oxner] #2781894 11/24/11 08:40 PM
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Wow, you have a lot more patience then I do, my dog would be holding birds or have a new zip code way before he busted 500 coveys.


Re: Whoa breaking a pup [Re: Chet] #2782212 11/25/11 12:35 AM
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A puppy comes home with me, and it's there to stay. My wife brought her home in a shoe box. She was a little more staunch on singles than she was on coveys. This was her second year.

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1047848/Fried_quail#Post1047848

Many dogs were not broke till they were at least 3 years old back in those days. I remember an interview with Herman Smith, about her sire. He said that Sport took out 16 coveys in an AA trial while the judges were not looking.



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