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Two Killed In Helicopter Crash #1300011 03/10/10 11:02 PM
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jeh7mmmag Online Happy OP
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Condolence to the family and friend for the loss of 2 sportsman.



Two Killed In Helicopter Crash
Jennifer Dodd, KSAT 12 News Reporter

POSTED: Saturday, March 6, 2010
UPDATED: 8:32 pm CST March 7, 2010

SAN ANTONIO -- Officials with the Texas Department of Public Safety released the names of two men killed in a helicopter crash Saturday in La Salle County.

The body of Dale Jones, a hunter from the Houston area and the body of Brian Faglie, a pilot from Uvalde, were found near the chopper that crashed around 11:30 a.m. Saturday in a field at a private hunting ranch near the small town of Dilley.

Tim LeBaron, an investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board confirmed Sunday that Faglie was piloting an air hog hunting excursion.

LeBaron said the weather, which was clear at the time of the crash has been ruled out as one of the possible causes.

"In talking with some of the people who were out here when it happened, the rain was calm and the weather wasn't bad at the time," said LeBaron.

LeBaron said they'll figure out what caused the crash through the process of elimination.

http://www.ksat.com/news/22764483/detail.html



´┐ŻEverybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in,
where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.´┐Ż
~ John Muir
Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: jeh7mmmag] #1300047 03/10/10 11:15 PM
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Willing to bet it was pilot error, after reading that.




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: jeh7mmmag] #1300055 03/10/10 11:18 PM
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Pretty sad


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Txkiller] #1300078 03/10/10 11:28 PM
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bad deal..



The beauty of the Second Ammendment is it won't be needed until they try and take it.
Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: RMR] #1300083 03/10/10 11:29 PM
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no good



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Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Brandon A] #1300106 03/10/10 11:40 PM
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That sucks.



Originally Posted By: Chunky Monkey
Never been to a camping world. I prefer Dick's to be honest.
Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1300366 03/11/10 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: helomech
Willing to bet it was pilot error, after reading that.


Given the record of Robinson helicopters, 925 crashes since 1982 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx the problem is the design of the airframe if you start yankin-n-bankin, trying to keep up with pigs and quick changes in direction you can chop the tail off in a heartbeat. If anyone is thinking about getting in on heli hunting make sure it's in a Bell 47 or a Jet Ranger or any other real helicopter, not something that looks like it was put together from spare parts picked up at Home Depot.


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Beaverdriver] #1300482 03/11/10 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: Beaverdriver
Originally Posted By: helomech
Willing to bet it was pilot error, after reading that.


Given the record of Robinson helicopters, 925 crashes since 1982 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx the problem is the design of the airframe if you start yankin-n-bankin, trying to keep up with pigs and quick changes in direction you can chop the tail off in a heartbeat. If anyone is thinking about getting in on heli hunting make sure it's in a Bell 47 or a Jet Ranger or any other real helicopter, not something that looks like it was put together from spare parts picked up at Home Depot.


Those stats are very misleading. Robinson makes a great helicopter. The reason for most of those crashes is because it is the #1 helicopter used at flight training schools. They are what they are, though. A low cost helicopter. It does not have lots of extra power. But in experienced hands when used withing its flight envelope they are great.




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1300677 03/11/10 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: helomech
Originally Posted By: Beaverdriver
Originally Posted By: helomech
Willing to bet it was pilot error, after reading that.


Given the record of Robinson helicopters, 925 crashes since 1982 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx the problem is the design of the airframe if you start yankin-n-bankin, trying to keep up with pigs and quick changes in direction you can chop the tail off in a heartbeat. If anyone is thinking about getting in on heli hunting make sure it's in a Bell 47 or a Jet Ranger or any other real helicopter, not something that looks like it was put together from spare parts picked up at Home Depot.


Those stats are very misleading. Robinson makes a great helicopter. The reason for most of those crashes is because it is the #1 helicopter used at flight training schools. They are what they are, though. A low cost helicopter. It does not have lots of extra power. But in experienced hands when used withing its flight envelope they are great.




They are good little cheap helicopters, but like Helo said thats what 99% of flight schools use. Or if someone is taught privatly, more than likley they will be taught in a Robinson R22, because anything further up the line costs too much to operate. I've been in quite a few of them and with a good pair of hands they can't be beat.



Bartender, bring me anything except brake fluid, cause I don't plan on stopping!
Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: moderno] #1300869 03/11/10 04:19 AM
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I thought that the link
( http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx ) had linked into the actual list of accidents which I see now it didn't if you link to the search page above fill it out as follows

Accident/Incident Information
Event Start Date (mm/dd/yyyy) 8/1/1977
Event End Date (mm/dd/yyyy) 3/10/2010

Aircraft
Category Helicopter
Make Robinson

Then drop down and hit Submit Query, during that time frame there have been 934 accidents. The resulting list isn't a statistical list it's a list of factual reports and probable causes. One common theme in a lot of the reports is a missing tail boom.
I'm just trying to get the info out about this so anyone considering this type of adventure can make an informed decision as to whether or not to get into a Robinson. Using the same time frame on the query for a Bell 47 there were 695 accidents with a lot fewer fatalities compared to the Robinson.


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Beaverdriver] #1300905 03/11/10 04:37 AM
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helomech Offline
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Originally Posted By: Beaverdriver
I thought that the link
( http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx ) had linked into the actual list of accidents which I see now it didn't if you link to the search page above fill it out as follows

Accident/Incident Information
Event Start Date (mm/dd/yyyy) 8/1/1977
Event End Date (mm/dd/yyyy) 3/10/2010

Aircraft
Category Helicopter
Make Robinson

Then drop down and hit Submit Query, during that time frame there have been 934 accidents. The resulting list isn't a statistical list it's a list of factual reports and probable causes. One common theme in a lot of the reports is a missing tail boom.
I'm just trying to get the info out about this so anyone considering this type of adventure can make an informed decision as to whether or not to get into a Robinson. Using the same time frame on the query for a Bell 47 there were 695 accidents with a lot fewer fatalities compared to the Robinson.





You need more information than you have. How many robinsons are flying compared to bell 47's? What was the pilot experience level in these crashes? ANY helicopter can break a tailboom under the wrong circumstances. Heck the 407's where breaking off when they first came out, I know this for a fact because I had to inspect the tailboom after every flight day on all of ours. I worked on crash investigations, and 99% of the time it was pilot error. It is rare a failure of a aircraft whether fixed wing or rotary wing results in a crash. I have been working on aircraft for 20 years, and have seen only a hand full a mechanical failures that could not be safely landed. Those are usually the main rotor failing. Even a tailboom failure, or a tail rotor failure is completely survivable with a decent pilot.




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1301113 03/11/10 06:15 AM
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I wasn't trying to point out broken off tail booms, what I was trying to point out was the number of tail booms that had been cut off by the rotor blades due to over controlling. When put in the situation of chasing animals and the quick changes in direction the can make, could lead to over controlling. The Deadmans curve for the Robinson shows that pig hunting from one isn't such a great idea http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Beaverdriver] #1301120 03/11/10 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: Beaverdriver
I wasn't trying to point out broken off tail booms, what I was trying to point out was the number of tail booms that had been cut off by the rotor blades due to over controlling. When put in the situation of chasing animals and the quick changes in direction the can make, could lead to over controlling. The Deadmans curve for the Robinson shows that pig hunting from one isn't such a great idea http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html


And tailboom strikes are not normal. It is usually caused by a low rotor situation, or a hard landing. With not a lot of power on the system.

Again all helicopters will do that. The EC-120's are famous for it. Bell 407's, and 206's will do it also. Heck the army Apache will cut the cockpit off in some situations. Had to do plenty inspections on helicopters that had the fins cut off by the main rotor. My point is you are saying these are more likely to crash, and that is just not the case. In the hands of a good pilot and flown withing their approved maneuvers they are just as safe as any other helicopter. Heck some helicopters can't land on much of a slope without breaking something, that doesn't mean it is a bad design. It is designed to operate within a certain parameter. If you go outside these parameters you will probably break something. Which leads to most aircraft crashes being pilot error.

Even turbine powered helicopters are subject to the same issues you mentioned. Over speeds, over torques, and overtemps are all very easy to do for a pilot that is not aware of the limitation of the aircraft.




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1301135 03/11/10 06:41 AM
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"flown within their approved maneuvers "
my point exactly R22's and 44's flown at 40kts or above under 50ft or below are outside of approved manuvers. I'm all for low level flying you can have just as much fun doing it in a Super Cub or a Husky.


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Beaverdriver] #1301139 03/11/10 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: Beaverdriver
"flown within their approved maneuvers "
my point exactly R22's and 44's flown at 40kts or above under 50ft or below are outside of approved manuvers. I'm all for low level flying you can have just as much fun doing it in a Super Cub or a Husky.


Where did you get this data? I can not see how that can be outside approved maneuvers. In a helicopter you want airspeed over altitude. It allows for many more options in case of a failure of a system. Please post a link to the approved maneuvers on the robinson's. As far as I know (and yes I have worked on them) there is no airspeed restriction based on a low altitude. Your only airspeed restrictions occur at high altitudes where the air is less dense. The higher you fly the lower your VNE is.




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1301142 03/11/10 07:00 AM
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The Deadmans curve for the Robinson shows that pig hunting from one isn't such a great idea http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html

Open this link the first chart is for the R22 the hash marked area from 45kts and above under 25ft, 40kts and below above 10ft is outside of demonstrated manuvers for the FAA, the chart is the same one that is found in the POH


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Beaverdriver] #1301150 03/11/10 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Beaverdriver
The Deadmans curve for the Robinson shows that pig hunting from one isn't such a great idea http://www.copters.com/pilot/hvcurve.html

Open this link the first chart is for the R22 the hash marked area from 45kts and above under 25ft, 40kts and below above 10ft is outside of demonstrated manuvers for the FAA, the chart is the same one that is found in the POH


That chart is just a example of stored rotor inertia in case of an engine failure. Like I said, all helicopters have a similar chart. You never want to be in a situation in a helicopter where you don't either have airspeed or altitude.

That chart does not represent the airframe limitations.

I will study the page tomorrow, I am off to bed now.




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1301155 03/11/10 07:21 AM
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I guess my problem is that I spent to many years in A/C from Gruman Bridge and Iron Works and Siskorski.


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Beaverdriver] #1301362 03/11/10 02:14 PM
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My prayers go out to the families my coworkers and i love watchin those hunts on you tube


Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: wiesel] #1301403 03/11/10 02:26 PM
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frown



~~Hunting to me is kind of like air to me also. I cant live without it~~
Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: Beaverdriver] #1301544 03/11/10 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: Beaverdriver
I guess my problem is that I spent to many years in A/C from Gruman Bridge and Iron Works and Siskorski.


I work on lots of Sikorsky aircraft also. And they have their faults. All have stipulations with them. It depends on what they where designed for. I have worked on the S-61, Blackhawk, and do lots of work on the S-76. Not very long ago a mast broke overseas on a S-76, all aboard died. Come to find out it was a manufacture flaw at Sikorsky. A bunch of s/n transmissions had to be sent back.

I went back and read more of the link you gave, and the chart is just for auto rotations. It does not limit the aircraft, it is just giving the pilot information to be cautious of.

"One thing to keep in mind as you look at these HV curves is that they are not limitations placed on the pilot. If they were intended as limitations, they would be placed in the limitations section of the flight manual. Instead, they are placed in the performance section as a guide to the pilot, so he can make intelligent choices about what combinations of airspeed and altitude to use for a particular mission. Some missions require you to fly the helicopter in the shaded area of the HV curve. While doing so, good pilots are spring loaded to react immediately to any clues that something may be wrong with the aircraft, and they will attempt to get out of the shaded area immediately. Operating in the shaded area of the HV curve involves risk to the aircraft and it's occupants, and the risk must be managed wisely. "




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1301742 03/11/10 04:50 PM
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Can you fly a helocopter Helo? There is a guy where I live that took lessons and is now flying his own. I think I'd have to wait till he got a "few years" of experience before I rode with him.
Sorry to hear about the hunters crashing...



Mmmm Hmmm
Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: d.g.ruff] #1301842 03/11/10 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: d.g.ruff
Can you fly a helocopter Helo? There is a guy where I live that took lessons and is now flying his own. I think I'd have to wait till he got a "few years" of experience before I rode with him.
Sorry to hear about the hunters crashing...


A little, good enough to get me back safely. But not good enough to do it unless I had to. I get to fly them every now and then, less lately though. Mainly just work on them, I lost my love of flying a few years ago.




Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: helomech] #1301919 03/11/10 06:13 PM
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I figured knowing all that you do about them, you're bound to know how to fly one as well. I've been up in one once, the little bubble kind with no doors. It was a little butt wrenching when the guy did turns and you're staring straight down at God's green earth.



Mmmm Hmmm
Re: Two Killed In Helicopter Crash [Re: d.g.ruff] #1301949 03/11/10 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: d.g.ruff
I figured knowing all that you do about them, you're bound to know how to fly one as well. I've been up in one once, the little bubble kind with no doors. It was a little butt wrenching when the guy did turns and you're staring straight down at God's green earth.


That was probably a Bell 47, or a swicher (spelling). It is kind of funny, because in the simulator at work I can fly it great, but once my butt is in the real aircraft no so good. I think it has more to do with fear of messing up in the real on, vs not having the ability to do it. I just don't get to do it often enough to become real proficient. My company does not like us doing it, anymore.




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