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Deer Management Questions
#1151147
01/05/10 08:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,896
DCS
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,896 |
As president of our Landowners Association, I am thinking about trying to implement some kind of a deer management program and I am looking for suggestions and ideas.
We hunt 1600 acres between 18 landowners. The land is either open range or low fenced and is located about 16 miles south of Junction in Edwards County.
We see very few quality bucks and sometimes not the many does. A few of us have already implemented self imposed antler restrictions rules and will only take two deer a year.
I guess my question is, what are the chances a program like this will succeed and what steps would you guys take to make a plan come together?
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: DCS]
#1151184
01/05/10 09:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 283
tinkerbell
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 283 |
Are you working with your local TPWD biologist??
These are the questions you should be asking him. It sounds like you are since you said your part of a landowners coop.
I think you will get some good responses here, but without seeing the conditions the ranches are in it is difficult to make anything but blanket statements.
The hunter limitation is good if that is what is limiting the population, but you need to know what the carrying capacity of the land is. What kind of browse and forbs are important for deer in your area?? How much production of these plants do you have on these properties?? Are cattle grazed or excluded?? Are they rotationally grazed or allowed to free graze?? How dependable is a water source in your area??
These are all questions I would ask of myself and the other folks.
Habitat first and then everything else.
A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: DCS]
#1151186
01/05/10 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,959
Scoop
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,959 |
1) Having a plan is better than not having a plan. 2) Having a plan without having all the landowners on board will really weaken or prevent good results. 3) Enforcing such a plan is tough. Do you have the ability to put any teeth in the plan? I doubt you can "vote people off the island"? 4) I've found that what a lot of hunters say is far different than what you see hanging in their camp. They talk a good game when you discuss a management plan, then shoot anything that moves. And they won't fess up and tell you they decided to let their grandkids shoot 3 or 4 extra deer beyond their allotment.
I'd go with a plan, but understand it is only as good as the member landowners you are working with.
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: Scoop]
#1151227
01/05/10 09:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 828
Gus McRae
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 828 |
I agree with tinkerbell's & Scoop's assessments. If you don't have dire consequences for violating a game management program, then it really hampers your ability to successfully implement one.
If someone kills a buck that is too young and has great potential, they need to pay a fine, or be kicked off the lease. Everyone makes mistakes, and if it's truly an "oops" then maybe a warning for violation #1. After that, and you're gone or you pay $500 (or something steep). That tends to get the attention of people.
Also, only 1600 acres is in "your" co-op. With such a small acreage, I think Dr. Kroll recommends you focus more on doe harvests than buck culling. The former will make a much bigger impact on your deer quality than the latter.
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: Gus McRae]
#1151712
01/06/10 01:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 633
bassackwards dav
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 633 |
1. First Id talk to the other 17 and I would ask them if they have any interest in a program. 2. If your land owners would respect the program even if one or tw or three arnt really sure. Your bylaws probably bind them to it on a majority vote. 3. I would stay away from the penalty thing at first. I would consentrate on educateing everyone on how to recognize a mature deer.There will BE MISTAKES. ITs the repeated mistakes by the same hunters that would have to be addressed. 4.A plan. 1st is some kind of idea of what your goal is. then you can start to work on specifics. Setting up a survey line is easy and the math is easy to get your counts close and ratios close. Good luck. Its alot of fun to work management and it doesnt have to be a fight.
bassackwards dav
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: bassackwards dav]
#1151807
01/06/10 01:53 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,768
killemall
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,768 |
Alot of hunters for 1600 acres. Especially if family members hunt. Getting buy in on the plan is key you are going to have to sell it hard. If people are in the habit of pulling the trigger on a regular basis it's tough to get them to stop. I would rather not shoot a buck and have a chance every so many yeaars at a great one than shoot a basket rack every year. Survey is key, reproduction rates, carry capacity on place, ratios. What our biologist does is not brain surgery. You could probably do on your own with some research. If you took the propery MLD that would take the individual tags out of the equation. They have to use tags which are issued through the program. Pics of deer for harvest are a good start especially until the members get to where they understand what they are looking for. There is no way that you would issue 18 buck tags on 1600 acres under MLD (at least not for very long) So there would be alot of the members not shooting deer. Once your ratio's are set and attained you wouldn't probably shoot 18 doe a year. You going to have a hard sell. Too many people on place bottom line.
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: bassackwards dav]
#1151810
01/06/10 01:54 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,314
KG68
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,314 |
Some of the landowners started a program in Mills county about 15 years ago and called it Trophy Management Association. It was free and open to anyone and they had meetings monthly and invited speakers involved in management programs from other counties. They had a board of directors and officers and sold signs to hang on gates and fences to promote the program. That was really the first step to managing our deer herd county wide and it really did a lot to jump start the management programs that are in place today.
Last edited by KG68; 01/06/10 01:57 AM. Reason: spelling
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: DCS]
#1152519
01/06/10 01:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,599
Slow Drifter
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,599 |
Get with TP&W, definitely. That's where our tax dollars are going, they are an excellent resource, this is what they do for a living, so use them. You may not like what they have to say, though. If they recommend a management plan, be very careful before you agree to anything, as it might be possible to implement parts of their plan while not falling under MLD. 18 guns on 1600 acres will be hard to manage. Oh, I just re-read your post, that's 18 land owners? Man, that could be a LOT of hunters. Depending on your head count (doe/buck ratio) a few guns may have to sit out a season or agree to only take does, mature bucks, culls, whatever's needed. Use our public resources (TP&W) I'm surprised they don't advertise more aggressively regarding what they have to offer.
"I have no idea what WW-III will be fought with, but WW-IV will be fought with sticks and stones." A. Einstein
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: Slow Drifter]
#1152665
01/06/10 02:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,896
DCS
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,896 |
Thanks for all the input. I got to thinking about it and although there are 18 landowners, not all of them are avid deer hunters believe or not. One is a retired reptile biologist from the Dallas Zoo and may shoot one doe every couple of years, some I think bought the land as an investment, several others that surround my place are very conservative hunters.
There are a few that I think will shoot anything that moves and that we may have to convinced to throttle back.
I really like the idea of contacting the Texas Parks and Wildlife, your right we are paying for them, why not.
Last edited by DCS; 01/06/10 03:04 PM.
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: Slow Drifter]
#1152729
01/06/10 03:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,896
DCS
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,896 |
Got to thinking about it and out of the 18 landowners, I know four would definitely go for it, I am 95% sure six other landowners would be receptive, four we would have to work on and four others are simply not a factor due to various reasons.
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: Gus McRae]
#1152815
01/06/10 03:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,951
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,951 |
Also, only 1600 acres is in "your" co-op. With such a small acreage, I think Dr. Kroll recommends you focus more on doe harvests than buck culling. The former will make a much bigger impact on your deer quality than the latter.
I agree I'd worry more about numbers and age of your bucks, then genes.
Last edited by BOBO the Clown; 01/06/10 03:39 PM.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#1152955
01/06/10 04:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,074
Justin T
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,074 |
If you are in a low density deer area, if 18 landowners were only to take 2 deer a year, that may be too many. Some people may have to be on board with taking 1 or no deer a year, depending on your deer count. In the Hill Country, we take around 20 does a year on a similarly sized place, but we have a lot of deer.
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Re: Deer Management Questions
[Re: Justin T]
#1153848
01/06/10 11:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,685
txbobcat
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,685 |
To be honest one of the worst things about some of these subdivisions is the ones selling the land sold it in too many plots (too many landowners).
Many have been sold telling landowners they could each take bucks every year and on a stable managment plan maybe only half could realistically take a deer each year. Try telling someone who just paid big $$$ for their 100 acres that they cant take a buck each year and see what kind of response you get...
Its going to be tough to get 18 different groups on the same page for a managment plan when in fact your management plan may call for not everyone getting to take a deer...
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