White Elk Ranch???

Can anyone tell me about this place? What they have heard? The hunting? Acreage? Breeding stock quality?

From what I have heard great ranch great genetics. Don't know about average.I do know they used to be in Colorado but moved to nebreska I thought .

Only pure bred European bison in north america too. I would hold onto your wallet though

I don't know how big it is, but from what I understand it is extremely expensive. But, you can shoot anything you can dream of there. Mountain goat, bighorn sheep, dall sheep, reindeer, and I think they even have some yaks there. In addition to all the North American stuff, they also have all of your urials, ibex, and other sheep. I think Dick and Jim Cabela have hunted there quite a bit.

Not sure of the Acreage, but a lot of Terrain,(Bluffs, Cliffs, Rolling Hills) they have some of the Best Red Sheep, Transcaspian Urials,and like stated above, Ibex, Mountain Goats, Tahr Etc. their "Stumberg" Sheep are not True Stumbergs though....

All above is true, trophys. Not all ranch raised, but awesome animals. I think the prices are in a fair range, both for stockers an shooters if ur buying or hunting.

I know for a fact they have good animals. They bought a couple of my Ibex a few years ago.

How do they keep their sheep and goats from crossing if they are in the hunting area?

I am sure they have breeder pens and then release the males onto the ranch.

What do their stumbergs look like?

I have hunted on this ranch. Not sure of the size but it's a big ranch. His breeding operation are in a separate location 10 miles away with large breeding pens. On the hunting property I seen large heards of Red Sheep, armenian mouflon,persian ibex a few nubian ibex and yak. They are wild as they get. When I was there the animals were not coming into the feeders, long shots required. His breeding operation was cool to see. His breeder bighorn sheep was a stud. Over all the owner Tad Puckets was a great host.

What super rare things does he have?

Kobus,

Call up and talk to Tad..he's a decent guy. His prices are not all that bad given the quality of the animals. They do use feeders to get the sheep within range. Website is below...click on "Hunting" link for prices. His Red sheep are $4900 which are comparable to Texas given his sheep are high end.

http://www.whiteelkranch.com/

Gere are his fees

Trophy fee's

Afghan Urial $6,900
Transcaspian Urial $14,900
Nubian Ibex $9,500
Persian Ibex $7,500
Hybrid Ibex $4,500
European Bison $7,500
Yak $4,500
Markhor $8,900 to $12,500
Himalayan Tahr $4,900
Bighorn Sheep
$30,000

Alaskan Dahl Sheep $30,000
Stumberg Sheep $6,900
Armenian Mouflon $4,900
Stone Sheep $30,000
Red Sheep $4,900
Elk $4,900

One more addoitional post....if you want Stumburg rams look into the Patio Ranch (Gary Ploch)
....Trophy rams are $4000 (34-35")and the bigger Breeders are $8000


BREEDERS


TROPHY RAMS


TROPHY RAMS

The ram in the far right in the breeder photo looks awesome. But some especially the trophy rams just look like oversized mouflon. IMO

Kobus,

The pictures I posted were sent to me by Gary Ploch who runs the hunts at the Patio Ranch.....these are Stumberg rams NOT European Mouflons. I spoke to Gary a few times, and the rams they hunt are trophy quality rams, they are just not part of the breeding program. So I'll take exception to your opinion that these are Mouflons. I do not believe that the Patio ranch does live sales on any of its rams...only ewes....but I could be wrong. So anyone selling a Stumberg sheep hunt other than the Patio ranch would have to explain the pedigree of the ram.


Stumberg rams are suppose to be an Argali x European Mouflon cross that originated at the Patio Ranch. (see attached text), They supposedly crossed Mouflon ewes with a lone Argali ram at a zoo and then breed back the females off spring. That's why they have coloration similar to a European Mouflon. The reason I used the term "are suppose" is because I really don't know the pedigree of the zoo's Argali ram. Also, there are numerous types of Argali sheep and there appearance (body color and horn shape/size) vary.

So Stumbergsa are a hybrid....I suspect you might classify them as "Frankensheep" because what they did at the Patio Ranch isn't a whole lot different than what Thompson Temple does with his hybrid sheep and I have seen your comments about Thompson Temple.

Here is what the Patio Ranch says about their Stumberg rams

Stumberg Sheep (Ovis musimon x Ovis ammon) - In 1969, the owner of the Patio Ranch took 5 European mouflon ewes to a facility in Oklahoma that had a lone argali ram with no females. Five offspring were born the following winter. The females of those offspring were returned to the same facility the next year and bred back to their father. The progeny of that male and these mouflon ewes were the start of the hybrid sheep herd on the Patio Ranch. A number of years later, a member of the hunting community in Texas coined the term “Stumberg Sheep” to name these hybrids and the term took hold. The argali sheep are the largest of the world’s wild sheep. The hybrids have coloration very similar to European mouflon, but have much larger bodies and greater horn size reflecting the argali influence. The largest ram to date is over 45” on the curl with bases of over 12”.


http://www.thepatioranch.com/

TonyinVa, that is what I have always heard, and have talked to Gary myself, I would be very skeptical of anyone have a True Stumberg Ram, although who is to say that they don't let a bred Ewe get away from time to time and end up giving birth to a Ram lamb? as for the Mouflon markings, I have seen numerous Sheep with very little Mouflon in them and still have the Mouflon markings, I also sorta question their ability to maintain a breeding herd since 1969 without introducing some new blood at some point?? especially whereas it all started with 5 Ewes and the female offspring sent back to the Argali once more, typically with 5 Ewes, you will get 2-3 Female offspring, then take those 2-3 back and get 1-2 female offspring, I guess they could have bred those back to the first cross Rams, but still your looking at a handful of Sheep breeding back for 45 years....

Hilonesome,

To my knowledge there are no Argali sheep in captivity in the US. So like you I do not how they could get any new Argali bloodline back into their breeding population. I guess they could have done some line breeding to some of the original 1st and second generation males and kept a few separate lines going to help minimize in-breeding. I use to raise tropical fish when I was a kid (I am 68 now) and that's what we did.

In any event, my point was the pictures I posted were from Gary Ploch (who is a super nice guy) and he said they were Sumbergs ...and I believe Gary ...and the patio also has European Mouflons and I would suspect Gary sent me the correct pictures as we discussed them on the phone.

Doesn't that mean they are quite inbred?

Kobus,

What's your point? You asked about Stumberg rams...we gave you the information. If you are questioning whether the sheep at the Patio ranch are from a small gene pool....answer is yes. As for inbred, I suspect many of the exotic animals and whitetails in Texas have some inbreeding or linebreeding. I suspect the Patio ranch did some form of line breeding to minimize problems you get with close inbreeding, but I did not talk to Gary about that. The rams look impressive and the prices for a trophy ram were reasonable. Here is some information on inbreeding and linebreeding. Linebreeding happens all the time. If you are interested in a Stumberg ram or just want to ask about them..call Gary Ploch. I am sure he'd be happy to talk to you. He's a really decent guy. BTW, I have no idea if the Patio Ranch ever introduced and new European Mouflon blood into there Stumbergs (or even some other large sheep like a Transcaspian Urial). I am just going by what the Patio Ranch has said they have done.

What do the terms inbreeding and linebreeding mean?

What is inbreeding?

Inbreeding is the mating of related individuals that have one or more relatives in common. Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding.

What is close inbreeding?

Close inbreeding is the mating of close relatives. The closest form of inbreeding in domestic animals involves matings between full brothers and sisters (full siblings) and between parents and offspring (collectively called first-degree relatives). The offspring from first degree matings have a significantly increased risk of suffering from an inherited disorder.

The next most close form of inbreeding involves matings between grand-parents and grand-offspring, between half brothers and sisters (half siblings), between uncles/aunts and nephews/nieces, and between double-first cousins (collectively called second-degree relatives). Second degree mating is the second closest possible form of inbreeding. The offspring from second degree matings also have a substantially increased risk of suffering from an inherited disorder.

The more closely related the parents, the greater the chance of their offspring suffering from an inherited disorder. This is because when animals are related to each other they are far more likely to be carrying the same defective genes. When these defective genes pair up in the offspring, inherited diseases occur. Inherited diseases can cause significant suffering and reduce quality of life particularly where the disease causes pain.

What is linebreeding?

Linebreeding is a term commonly used to describe milder forms of inbreeding. Typically it involves arranging matings so that one or more relatives occur more than once in a pedigree, while avoiding close inbreeding.

Note that many dog breeders apply the term “inbreeding” only to close inbreeding, despite the fact that linebreeding is inbreeding and has the same effects.

Alrighty, thanks for clearing that up. I would of been interesting to see what those first stumberg rams would have looked like.

@Stagman when you mention herds like both males or females in the hunting area or just males?

Here is the contact for the White Elk ranch....call Tad and he can answer all your questions directly. I believe that if you fly into Denver he will meet you there and drive you to the hunt location in Nebraska. My belief is that they only have males in the hunting area, but that may have changed.


Tad Puckett
White Elk Ranch
36606 Old HWY 34
Trenton, Nebraska 69044

Phone: 970-641-4425

E-mail: Tad@WhiteElkRanch.com

Just to stir the pot a bit, here are some pics of a Transcaspian Urial ram x Stumberg ewes...I believe these sheep are 3 year olds.

Thanks!

And where are those sheep at?

I am not at liberty to say where the Transcaspian Urial x Stumberg crosses rams are at (it is not Thompson Temple). So I apologize for the "chicken [censored]" answer. But I think they are outstanding looking sheep.

Actually...they don't look half bad.

One of the Prettiest, "Hossiest" Rams I ever seen was a Stumberg TCU cross! those Rams you posted TonyinVa are pretty cool!

There horn configuration look like TCU x red sheep cross, TCU color and horn mass with red sheep horns that kinda pull in. Texas Kick a$$ afghan Urial.

I want to see them when they are older..... preferably on my wall.

Only half bad..... I guess from you that's a compliment.

I just don't care for hybrids or cross stuff. For something like Stumberg Sheep I can understand...one Argali male with no females(at least they picked mouflon, a wild sheep to breed it with, instead of crossing it with farmyard pets). But when you start getting number percentage soup sheep like Thomson Temples mongrels, it just raises my brow in disgust.

I'm a firm believer in keeping a species for what it truly is, not watering it down. Every time I see a 40+" Pure Transcaspian Urial or another wild sheep male with a bunch of Corsican ewes or the like domestics, I just can't help but to shake my head. It's just to me they are too wild and majestic of animals to be part of Dr. Frankensteins laboratory experiments. The results might look "cool" to some people, but that sheep is likely watered down wildness wise due to crossing with a domestic stock and likely of living it's whole life in an acre pen where it receives constant human contact.

Just my opinion.

Kobus,

Hunting Exotics in Texas is a business ...if the business doesn't make money it goes under. I do not think Exotic Sheep hunting in Texas would survive if all you had were "pure bred sheep." It would be way too expensive. That's why there are Texas Dalls, Black Hawaiians, Corsicans and Painted Sheep (all hybrids). You said you were writing a paper for college on Exotics......what would happen to the financials of these Texas hunting ranches if there were only allowed to hunt pure bred animals?

So I think what motivates the ranchers to cross bred these sheep are to get an animal that meets a market demand. It's business ..giving customers what they want at a price they can afford (and are willing to pay).

So if you have a high priced Transcaspian Urial ram you would first mate it with all your Transcaspian Urial ewes...you can sell those rams for 15K...but to a limited market. But if you have some Mouflon ewes...maybe you create a hybrid (maybe a Red sheep or even a TCU x European Moflon).....or whatever. That ram is there...might as well use him.

The Patio will only sell Stumberg ewes....so is it all that horrible to cross them with a Transcaspian Urial or should we make mutton stew out of those ewes?

Also, I know you dislike Thompson Temple, but remember that he got his bighorn x European Mouflonb cross sheep from Colorado when there was an accidental cross breeding of the two species. Maybe the state of Colorado should have shot them all.

As long as the Outfitter is honest about what he is selling on a hunt, I have no issue with hybrids. I also don't think the hybrids are going to contaminate/wipe out the pure bred herds.

You might want to lighten up a bit on your views about things..... just a suggestion.

And you raise some of the best Mouflons around...so they must look pretty good. I want to see them at 4 or 5 years old

^^^^100% agree

And you raise some of the best Mouflons around...so they must look pretty good. I want to see them at 4 or 5 years old

Thank You Sir! I appreciate the Kind Words!

When going out to the White Elk ranch you are driving through the typical wide open prairie of South Western Nebraska and then you drop off into this area where the ranch is at and from the bottom it almost seems as though you are in the mountains next to some cliffs, so it makes for some fun hunting, and the animals are very good trophy quality, you will also see some animals there that you do not normally see in Texas, like the reindeer, also if you hunt in the winter the animals have the long thick coats and mains, if you can go to white elk ranch it is well worth the trip.

If I remember right it is about a section of ground. But I could be remembering wrong.

Actually that isn't a bad idea.
Jk!

But the problem I have is that crosses whenever they get Corsican blood in them or since they spend most of their life in a breeding pen, they seem to be pretty tame...

Sometimes "pretty tame" is just the nature of the animal and/or it's environment. Most Texas hunters compare all game to a mature whitetail. I have a friend who says "why would I go to Alaska and shoot bullwinkle".
In my opinion to much time is spent on" judging what a hunter should be" while forgetting ALL game animals are not created equal.

Ever hunt a muskox.

too many sheep snobs!

X2

I'm with SheepHunter Jack O'Conner, even said that a mature whitetai,l was one of the most difficult trophies in the world to hunt. I get enjoying the wonderful habitats that some animals live in but a lot of those animals are not difficult to hunt. Take those animals out of their awe inspiring habitats and the hunt isn't so great.

640 acres doesn't seem like much for this type operation

Colt, Do you even know what type of operation this is? How many animals...terrain type, amount of cover? A square mile is a pretty good size piece of property....whether it is fenced or not. Why is it you always seem to feel the need to post a less than positive comment?

Agreed. I have had extensive discussion with Gary too, on this subject. Plan to book a hunt next year. If I want a Stumberg sheep, the Patio Ranch is the ONLY place I'm going to get one.