Afghan Urial Sheep (pic heavy)

As most of the regulars on this Forum know, it's not always easy find pure breed exotics. This year I started to look into some of the wild sheep that are on Texas ranches (Mouflons (both European & Armenian), Red sheep and Urials (Transcaspian and Afghan).

As has been posted elsewhere, since Red Sheep are a hybrid you need to be careful in selecting a hunt. And given they are a hybrid you may see more Urial or more Mouflon like characteristics, etc. That and you also see a lot of crosses ... so hunter beware.

On Afghan Urials, which may be one of the best wild sheep bang for buck, there seems to be a lot of variation in what they look like (maybe because there are a lot of subspecies in the wild that they clump together as Afghan Urials.

From the Wild Sheep Foundation, the following are pics that they posted on their site as "Afghan Urials"




If one goes by reputation, the Priour Ranch is the place to go to hunt Afghan Urials in Texas....and some even say it's the only pure herd in Texas. There rams look a little different based on horn shape ..but not much (see photo below which I believe came from the Priour Ranch but the Guides are PBGSO)





Now the question, do you think the ram in the next two photos is an Afghan Urial or a cross. He looks a lot like the rams in the Wild Sheep Foundation 1st pic....but not like the ones from the Priour ranch.

I do know a few high end places have been crossing Armenian Mouflon with Transcaspians/Red Sheep to create something that greatly resembles what you posted in the bottom two pictures. Unfortunately they are asking 5 digit figures for those hybrids and passing them off as afghans.

Priour's afghans have been on that ranch forever...they haven't come in contact with any of the Transcaspian Urial, European Mouflon, and Armenian Mouflon since they are in different areas.

Priour might be the best bang for your buck if your going to complete your introduced wild sheep slam, only one they don't have are Iranian Red.

So Kobus, you vote "no" it is not an Afghan Urial but some type of Transcaspian Urial hybrid?

I'd say so.

My ram I shot looked mostly identical to the bottom picture from the wild sheep foundation.

My concern with the ram in the bottom two pics is that the horns sweep back as opposed to out...like a Transcaspian where as most of the Afghan Urial pics I have seen have horns that sweep outward and have little to no curled tips. But the first photo from the Wild Sheep Foundation does look similar to the ram in the bottom pic....but that's one picture vs a lot of others...so I'm thinking maybe Transcaspian Urial hybrid.

The book "Memories of a sheep hunter" has a lot of good pics , the Rams are killed in there native country.

I shot my Afghan at the Priour. I don't know if they are the only ranch that has pure Afghans, but I have not run across another one that says they do either.
In Texas that is. I think that the White Elk up in Nebraska has some pure Afghans along with some amazing pure transcaspians.

I've told you several times I'll take you lets go. If you want a urial cross they are out there if you want a pure bred animal I have every species. I hunt the priour and if you look at the books they have just about all of the top end afghans they don't sell ewes. I have 1 other place that I have them and I have shot a lot of them and can judge them very well. I would love to have ya.
Clay Pope

I'm with You TonyinVA, have never seen what was called an Afgan Urial that curled up, the first Pic you posted, I have seen it calling those Sheep Transcaspians??? wish I knew more about the Urials....

Contact Priour Ranch you will not be disappointed

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/5064752/Great_Trip#Post5064752

Here is a good reference
http://www.wildsheep.org
ovis
afghans do not have a black patch

Clay Pope

X2

I can attest to that myself too!

Lots of guys have been breeding the red sheep females to a pure transcaspian male. What they are doing is then breeding the red sheep side back out to get an almost pure transcaspian thus there are quite a few cross bred 1/2 and 3/4 blood type rams out there now. What that is worth is in the eyes of the beholder but as I have told you SCI is accepting these crosses as red sheep thus you get these 35+ type animals which in all actual reality is a little big for a true red sheep and many of them possess the larger body and the more rounded looking horns. Afghans do not have a long black mane.
Clay

Appreciate everyone's comments. It more or less confirms what I thought. ...and Clay, I agree that you do take your share of great looking Afghan Urials.

SCI Afghan Urial

Overall color varies from reddish-buff to yellowish-brown. Rump patch and underparts are white, the face a bluish-gray. Rams have a white bib, long black neck ruff and a small black saddle spot in the winter coat. The horns are homonymous, triangular in cross section, and strongly wrinkled.

If those 2 were to go in the books they would be the new number 1 and the new number 2 SCI. We took 5 afghans that would be top 10 I just don't get into the record books like I guess I should. The other thing is Walt isn't running the Priour ranch anymore they have a new guy John he is a great guy, but he doesn't have the experience guiding that Walt had.
Clay Pope

My Afghan from the Priour early in February 2014. I saw a Bunch of Gorgeous Rams...

That black mame doesn't seem to match any other "pure" afghans I've seen photo's of. But don't take my word for it please!

I hope you find a pure one mate!

Here is mine as an example.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/h...6573d650d55423c

He was an old ram and my guide estimated him to be 11/12 years old. The horns never flare or curve outward but maintain a distinctive half moon shape like Kodiak's and all the others harvested off of Priour.

Here are some obvious hybrids, sadly they are in afghan urial category for SCI top three...
Poor saps probably paid heck of a lot more moola for a hybrid then the real thing!!!!!

As for what they are mixed with, Transcaspian/Red sheep most likely....with no real afghan blood in there. (priour doesn't sell their afghans so that means Thomson Templites can't go Dr Frankenstein on them and cross them out to extinction)

I hunted Afghan Urail sheep in Pakistan in the late 80s, it looks like the sheep in the center pic. Nothing like the Urials in Texas ,Also took a nice red in Iran on the same trip it looks like none of the Reds in Texas. Most all sheep breeds in Texas have been hybridize. There are some great mouflon breeders in Texas that look " pure" !!

Pictures of them?

I don't want to offend anyone but from what I've seen the SCI leaves a lot to be desired.
I saw a head taken last year or the year before in NZ and classed now as "World number one free range red deer". It's a big deer no doubt but I've seen a handful in my lifetime shot that are a fair bit bigger. I think that issue comes from that fact that in the south pacific (i.e. Aus and NZ) we use Douglsa score not SCI so heads are only compared to other heads taken by people from other countries and aren't compared to the cohort shot by people living in the country the animal was shot in. But that's digressing from the topic.

Tony you might just have to head to Pakistan to get a pure one! haha

No digital pics in the 80s, I will get them scanned and posted.

I would too and Iran also haha if I had the budget and there wasn't a looming threat of the Taliban waiting to blow my head off.

[/quote]
I would too and Iran also haha if I had the budget and there wasn't a looming threat of the Taliban waiting to blow my head off.[/quote]

We've got enough of that in our homeland at the moment without having to go overseas to face it. Just two weeks ago an 18 year old ISIS youth in Melbourne attempted to stab and behead 2 police officers. In Australia at the moment, military personnel aren't allowed to wear uniforms off base amid fears of being targetted by ISIS members living in Australia. And on the news the other day one couple were being forced to take down the Australian flag flying in their front yard because "it's too sensitive at the moment".

Might be better off in the middle east!

Jack,
They don't report that in the US news media.....it would not be politically correct. The liberals do not want to offend anyone.

Problem with most of this argument is even the taxonomists argue about where to make the splits on sheep. So all you can really go off is where the sheep are from originally - but that info is long lost. There's no registry, even the zoos can have marginal records about original stock, and have had varied practices of maintaining purity as taxonomy practices change. Most hunter groups like SCI/Ovis etc are not great guides to go by b/c they have a financial motive to create more 'species' that a hunter can enter in their books and the outfitters that petition have an obvious incentive to create more records categories as well.


The difference between a true afghan urial and a Transcaspian is about the same as the difference between a northern whitetail and a Texas whitetail - sure it's obvious to the avid whitetail hunter, but not to the average hunter and certainly not the average joe. All you have to go off are size, some characteristics of the head gear, and coloration - all of which can vary on an individual, a regional subgroup (think hill country deer v. North tx, v, south tx) and can be accentuated or lost in manipulated situations.

That said - most US afghans are animals that fell out of the process of trying to 'recreate' transcaspians via breeding with cheaper or more common sheep (hence they are mid-range price wise) - some of which look good some not so good. It became a nomenclature to make these animals more attractive for sale. Given the generally mid range price, I would say this is OK, but it has definately been taken advantage of - same as the case with Reds.

I cannot speak to the Prior animals, don't know their history and don't know any more about them than has been said on here. White Elk Afghans are definitely fall-outs as even their TCUs are mixed. The ones in the first pics look on par with the 'not quite' Transcaspian category.

Unfortunately it is truly a buyer beware market for the breeder and the hunter and in the case of sheep it's worth educating ones self.

I agree about white elk ranch they are very hit or miss with the quality of their animals from what I've heard and seen...

Txnrog,
Well stated, Great analogy .

Kobus.
The early TCU's shot on the White Elk Ranch look pretty good, the later one mmm, I know he purchased them from the Patio Ranch in Texas.

One thing we know for sure, a sheep is a sheep! LIG!

Are Patios t caps mixed?

I would think they have some good looking TCU's. I know they hunted some hybrids and advertised them as hybrids ,Big a$$ Rams, they are posted on there web site.

Patio doesn't have them any more. They got rid of them when they started to find signs that their original stock wasn't what they'd been sold.

If they did, I would trust them - they have very high standards on keeping lines pure.

Circle H has one of the strongest sheep programs I am aware of. They sell what I think most would call Afghans as Urial hybrids as fall outs of their red sheep program.

Stagman, we posted at the same time apparently. Patio started selling the 'hybrids' once they realized their original TCUs weren't what they'd been sold. To me that says a lot about their ethics.

Part of the problem with allowing ANY influx of other species genetics - eventually they will start throwing back to the lesser parent even if 7/8ths or better.

White Elk bought patio's stock knowing what they were and turned around and started selling them as pure. . . Says something too.

Yesterdays kill. What do y'all think? Pretty darn good one.
Clay Pope

Clay, nice looking sheep. What did you sell that as?

That would be an Afghan. And an awesome ram to boot! Pretty coat on him!

That IS a Beautiful Ram! but Afghan with a Saddle Patch? now I AM confused??

If you want to educate yourself on these breeds, ignore what you see fromTx ranches or white elk and go look at what's been harvested in their home range and look at the old reading. You can compare these back to what you see in TX for some reference.

Afghans I can find as confirmed pics from their home range don't have a saddle patch nor does it make sense that they would. They also have a bib (the long hair at the base of the jaw). They are largely insulated from the mid-east mouflons (armenian) and Mouflon/urial hybrids of Central Iran (red, Esfahan, laristan, Shiraz, Kerman) by the Transcaspian Urials. Mouflons to the west, progressively more 'urial' looking as you go east. TCU, Afghan, blanford, Punjab, and Ladakh (Shapo) roughly in order going West to East ( with some north/south size variation due to climate)

Tx 'afghans' in my experience are TCU/European mouflons or 3/4 TCU/Armenians (reds back crossed to TCUs)

TCU's occasionally have a darker stripe on their shoulder and a very thin, faint saddle but that tends to wash out as they mature, rather than get more prominent as it does in mouflons. But given the tendency to cross sheep in TX it would be a trait I would avoid.

IMO, if you see a mature 5+ yr 'pure urial' of any nomenclature with a saddle patch, I'd be a bit suspect -'just like if you saw a mouflon that turns out at the bottom of the curl - possible, but more likely hybridization.

Bib and Ruff color can vary from what I have seen both based on age and where the sheep are from and is not a great indicator - TCUs and Afghans tend to have the most white, esp in the northern parts of their range. As you go south, they tend to get more black or salt and pepper in their beard and ruff.

Clay,

Is that ram suppose to be an Afghan Urial or a hybrid? Horn shape looks right for an Afghan but the saddle patch and the dark hair in the mane would say it is a hybrid.

TonyinVA,

In my opinion.

Building an Afghan on above ram.

a) Horn configuration looks correct.. major ridge wrinkles
b) I would delete white saddle patch
c) Replace brown patch on throat with a small white bib.

Once again in my humble opinion.

SheepHunter,

I think we agree. That said, I have been reading up on wild sheep, and there are a bunch of different types of Afghans and they all look similar but some have dark in the mane ,,,but I did not see a saddle patch.

So what are Priour's Afghans then to you?

Kobus,

I have no way of knowing what their pedigree is, but from researching pictures on the internet (not hunting ranches in Texas) most of the photos of rams killed on the Priour look like an Afghan Urial is suppose to look.

Some folks might say that some of the photos of the Priour Afghan rams have too much dark hair in the mane (they are suppose to be white, but for all I know it just may be an individual rams trait....or maybe it is because there is some other sheep blood there). Who knows. It probably all goes back to where they got the sheep from originally, and as SheepHunter stated....how do we really know what's "pure."

That said, if I was going to hunt an Afghan I'd start with an Outfitter that had access to hunt on the Priour.

BTW, I just tried to go to their website and it seems like it's not working.

Hey guys,
Looking at a picture from the Exotic Animal Field Guide by Mungall and it shows some Afghan rams in apparently their winter coat. The rams in the picture have white saddle patches.
Also, here is a video at the Priour showing some female Afghans along with a ram from there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gb6TcwmtGI
The ewes have small knobs or horns that appear to go only about 3-4 inches off their heads btw.

Where is the white saddle patch on the Afghan Ram taken on Priour in the video you posted ? Maybe I missed something in your post.

Most animals in the winter get darker like black buck. On the afghans in the summer when they slick off you really don't see the patch in the winter you do. If you look at horn configuration look at all these Rams on this page every picture that is mine, Kodiaks picture the round look those are afghans. When they start turning up or turning up and out at their eyes that's a cross. I can look at sheep and telll. The ones up top below mine tony posted red sheep cross more red sheep in them. The 3 kobus posted are transcaspian crosses more transcaspian in them.
Clay

Kobus, those are pics of Texas animals. To my earlier posts, not a good gauge. Some folks argue that there are no pure afghan Urials in Tx, just a marketing term to sell urial hybrids.

Kobus,

The video was interesting.....and the hunt took place in Feb......and the ram has a solid color coat..,.no winter white saddle. Which is consistent with what a lot of folks with more knowledge than I have keep pointing out when describing what an Afghan Urial is suppose to look like.

The book you referenced is titled "Exotic Animal Field Guide Nonnative Hoofed Mammals in the United States." Notice the reference to "nonnative." I wonder if the picture you looked in that book were of "pure" Afghan Urials from the home rage or pictures of animals from Texas ranches...the ones you typically find in Texas which may or may not have other sheep breeds in them and hence have the classic Mouflon saddle.

Go look at this site

http://www.wildsheep.org/sheep/international.htm

About Afghan Urials it states "Generally a small sheep (around 100 pounds) which often has a white and black neck ruff similar to the Transcapian Urial." Here is the pic they have. Notice the horns actually curl up a little.






There are also a few types of Mouflons that look a lot like Afghan Urials (Laristan Mouflon and Shiraz Mouflon)...I could see a lot of confusion if someone wasn't an expert...which I am ot.

This all goes back to some of the original comments about "How do we really know the pedigree of what's on these Texas ranches." In my opinion it probably should boil down to "I you like the look of the animal and the price of the hunt...shoot it and be happy."

Could Priours afghans be an entirely other species of sheep?

I think the Priour has as pure an Afghan Urial as there are in Texas. If you look at the ones Clay Pope's hunters shot (in my original post) they have the classic Afghan Urial look ....maybe the Priour's rams are 100% pure...maybe they are "almost pure." Who knows.

Sheep breed with any other sheep around them, so even in the wild you may have some interbreeding.

Enter the Fannin Sheep debate

Do we really want to go there .... :-)

On a side note, aren't there two different places owned by Priour or something like that with two different Afghan herds?

All the rams I saw was at the main Priour, they didn't have a single hint of a saddle patch at all and they were in their winter coats.

Priour got his original stock from the zoo that got them from their native country. They will not sell any ewes period. All of their breeders at the big ranch have a saddle patch right now. The other ranch those animals came from the big ranch and were put in there years ago. I think at some time they have sold young rams but no ewes. The rest of what you see out there is a red sheep female bred to a transcaspian male. When you breed this it is 1/2 then they breed back to pure transcaspian Male and you have 3/4 so on and so forth. A lot of people do this with the cheaper ewes on goat and sheep species and try to breed back to almost pure which is fine. For example a nubian Ibex is not a huge bodied animal yet I see lots of larger bodied animals being passed off as pure.
Mouflon is a small bodied sheep with a small tail and I can tell when you get a bigger bodied sheep with a longer tail it has been bread with a corsican.
You can see all kinds of TX dall corsicans blacks etc… bred to the transcaspian around now. TT does a lot of this I believe.
The pictures Kobus posted I can tell these are red sheep transcaspian cross and there are a lot of these floating around in Texas. You see how their horns come up to their eyes? That is a transcaspian urial trait not an afghan trait. Look at the afghan on any of the sheep I have shot or from the prior. Now this last post from Tony with the ram from wild sheep his horns do not come up drastically nor do the com up much at all I think its the angle of the picture. The ones I have shot or guided and the one that Kodiak shot look like the picture I think wouldn't you agree?
But I have seen and had people send me pictures of what they are calling pure and charging big money for and I wouldn't buy it nor would I have a hunter shoot it unless I told them this is a cross. I have seen where people have griped about what others are calling a mouflon, transcaspian , afghan, red sheep, and armenian. Some of these rams or most of them are not cheap rams and when people pass off crap or junk for something it isn't I can tell I think there are quite a few here that can tell. I can post pictures of each breed and show the characteristics
The original pictures tony posted top 2 pics first one I would say those rams are rams that possibly cross with transcaspian their horns come up towards their eyes second picture looks more like an afghan Next 2 pics are my rams I guided I think they look like Afghans. The next 2 pictures transcaspiand red sheep mix probably at the 50% level. They a have a little larger body frame and their horns flair up and they have the very dark black mane typical of the red sheep.
Okierifleman I took him and his guide on that hunt and we shot a mouflon as well and an armenian Mouflon. Which white elk buys his armenians from where I hunt them.
Kodiak shot his on the priour looks like an afghan.
The three Kobus posted their horns come up to their eyes I wouldn't have shot that as an afghan I would have called it a transcaspian cross.
the last one I shot I think it looks like an afghan.
And yes in the wild these sheep can interbreed and over lap thats why I am saying the very first picture those rams have more of a transcaspian characteristic that the afghan characteristic. I don't care where you hunt or with who you hunt. I just know when you hunt with me I take a lot of pride in the sheep and goats we shoot.
Clay Pope

Thanks for clearing it up sir! If you have the time I wouldn't mind seeing pictures of the sheep species and their characteristics

Clay,
Thanks for sharing.

That said, as was posted by Txnrog, he suggested we go look at the photos from the native countries. If you go to the SCI top 10 page for Asia (not North America Estate or our US Texas High Fence hunts) you will see the follow photos for the top 4 rams .. and we see horns that curl.

My point is, there is a ton of conflicting information about Afghan Urial sheep and what a "pure" (and I use that word tongue in cheek) Afghan Urial is suppose to look like.

No there is no doubt about that but I am hunting in Texas not Asia and if you look at the wild sheep pic that u posted the afghan has a more rounded horn. If I went to asia and hunted them I wouldn't shoot one that turned in and up to his eyes. As far as body color goes Texas is hot and those mountains are not. If you want to shoot a more pure looking animal I think there is somewhere that has a very nice look here in Texas and I have shot some nice ones I think. If you want to shoot a transcaspian cross and pay transcaspian price for it I have no problems because thats what most are trying to do. Afghan is half the cost of transcaspian here. in your original post I would rather shoot the two I guided over the bottom two pictures what do you think? The record books will take anything and are not that particular. I had a hunter shoot a very large red sheep with me years ago and he took it to a master measurer for SCI and it went no 2 as an armenian to me I don't like that but it happens. I don't know to each his own .
Clay

Clay,

I started the post because I was originally looking for a large (close to 40") Red Sheep and an outfitter in South Texas was advertising what I thought looked to be a Red Sheep (with a lot of Transcaspian Urial traits) as an Afghan Urial. So I id a little research as I had thought that the Afghan Urial sheep were suppose to look like the ones your hunters shot on the Priour (recall our original emails where I inquired about Red Sheep or a Red Sheep x Transcaspian Urial). In fact it was your post and our discussion that actually made me consider adding an Afghan Urial ram to my "bucket list."

So my point is that there is a lot of conflicting information out there..... it's that simple.

After all that I have read I decided it all boils down to what you like and whether you think that the price of the hunt is fair.

BTW, this was the ram that got me all fired up about wanting to shoot a big Red Sheep.....and yes I know that this one shows a lot of Transcaspian Urial traits....but he's a beast!

Thats a beautiful ram and I tell guys a red sheep doesn't get that big of horns unless it is bred with a transcaspian. There are a lot of 50% animals out there and most people pawn them off as red sheep because they look the part for the most part. One of my places that raises red sheep that he took great pride in having pure red sheep never could get them over mid 30s and all these big reds have been coming into the record books so even he did the same thing he bought himself a 3/4 or better transcaspian and put it in with his red sheep to compete. I don't care and neither do the record books but if I know something is a cross I tell my hunter. There are a lot out there that do not. If I wanted to shoot a red sheep and was in your shoes as the hunter that would be a toad a beast and some wouldn't know it was crossed nor would they care he is beautiful. I would sell him as a transcaspian red sheep cross though then what you did with him as far as record book is up to you. I think I shoot some pretty nice rams and I look at prices and I think I have super competitive pricing. Where can you go shoot a pure transcaspian over 40 for $13500.00 not too many places and I have them. I have some monster pure european mouflon he is like the picture you posted but it may be another year before we shoot him. I have shot some monster afghans If I had scored and put several of these in the books we took the measurements there would have been several in the top 5-10. This past year we took 5 armenians that would have scored in the top 10 that we never put in. Its hard for me to compete with the reds when this goes into the reds and I would guess they paid more than 3500-4500 for him? did they? We shot the new record free range axis this year he will go into the books he was scored by a master measurer I charged my hunter $2500.00 for a 3 day hunt. I saw on here another one similar size sell for $5000.00. I think we consistently shoot nice animals and if you want to hunt with us that is awesome we would love to have y'all.
Clay

Clay,
If I remember correctly I was told that the price on that "Red Sheep" was $5500 including guide fees and lodging/food ....which I thought was a very fair price...but that was about 2 years ago. He measured 41" and change and I am amazed he wasn't broomed off.

What would you guys call these two rams? Thanks, I'm trying to learn!!!!

Baker

In my opinion these are Red Sheep with an Armenian Mouflon look (remembering that Red sheep are a hybrid between an Armenian Mouflon and a Transcaspian Mouflon so they can favor one parents traits or the other)

Baker,
You better be careful..... first you start to learn...then you want to hunt them. I think those Axis and Blackbuck are going to get some company.

^I agree 100%.

I did the same mistake many, many, many years ago. Shot an Armenian Mouflon, ended up being 21 inches, guide and owner told me that's as big as they get and I took it home. Found out a lot later that the sheep wasn't even two years old.....

Didn't research ahead, outfitter said on phone that they are going to be much smaller then a regular European Mouflon, so for years I thought what I shot was as big as they could get and anything else that was bigger was not pure.

Thanks for the replys guys, you can't tell from this photo because these sheep were over 200 yards away (they are wild as hell) but body wise they look like small animals. I'm planning a hunt for next May-June but I haven't landed on a target animal yet! I may just go and see what I see. Baker

Baker,
Most of the Mouflons are small in body size (probably under 100 pounds) ....The Transcaspian Urials have bigger body size which is why people cross them with other breeds...that and the horns...Afghan Urials are small (again 100 pounds)....the Red Sheep usually are somewhere in between. Check out the link below for a basic introduction to the wild sheep breeds.

http://www.wildsheep.org/sheep/international.htm

A lot of guys in texas put there armenians in with their red sheep and lump them as red sheep and they cross up and can have horns with either characteristic. The armenians are usually a little cheaper than the red sheep so you have to be careful. Or at least I charge less for armenians than I do for red sheep. My ranches keep them separate. The ones above have armenian Horns. We shoot some armenians that are 30.
Clay

PBGSO, do you have any pictures of your Armenian and Red Sheep?

PBGSO's website

http://www.huntsintexas.com/

Couple of nice armenians

http://www.wildlifebuyer.com/detail.asp?id=4737&n=10-AFGHAN-URIAL

Here is a so called Afghan they are selling on Wildlife Buyer....

Common Name: Afghan Urial

Scientific Name: Ovis vignei cycloceros [bocharensis]
Location: Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and possibly Iran

Generally a small sheep (around 100 pounds) which often has a white and black neck ruff similar to the Transcapian Urial.

Here is a link showing pictures of Afghan Urial rams at the Kabul Zoo from 1971 ( also attached the picture). Apparently it is also referred as a Afghanistan Red Sheep. This is from the animal's home range so it should be representative.

So this all goes back to the discussion as to how much variation there can be in a wild sheep species (particularly given the wide home range of Afghan Urials). So trying to stay within some strict "definition" of what a species should look like based on a population of one specific Texas Ranch and not allowing any deviation may be a bit too restrictive.

http://www.biolib.cz/en/image/id177339/

My trophies are subjective and none of them need a pedigree to hang on my wall or be in my freezer. As long as I like them I shoot 'em and pay the money.

Surprised no mention here of the Stumberg sheep on The Patio Ranch.

Reloader..... I'm with you...if it looks good and a fair price....that's the bottom line.

Issue here is that there are some who have a mindset that it need to be something very specific or it's a "mutt" (if you haven't read the treat from the beginning you may want to).

And by the way, Stunmbergs at the Patio Ranch and Stumberg x Transcaspian Urial as also addressed. see attached thread

http://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/5376102/1

I have nothing againt "Mutts" or "crosses" as long as you keep them away from the real deal. When sellers and brokers pull a sly and decide to sell a 6/8ths TCU x T. Dall Cross and sell it off as a "pure" sheep to someone who just started out their pure TCU herd, I'd get royally P'oed.

But it just stinks that there seems to be a rise in crosses these days, both sheep and goat wise.... Whatever happened to conserving species for what they are?
I dread that there are probably not going to be any pure Ibex or the like in the next decade or two if this keeps up....
Also....most crosses it seems are pretty stupid and tame.

Kobus,
Ranchers are always going to have pure animals because they make money on them. So Pure females will likely always be breed to pure males. But if you have a male sheep (with big testicles) and you can cross it with an available ewe of another breed of sheep ...and sell the male offspring for additional profits...they do that too. Exotic sheep have been in Texas since the 1950's and there are no shortage of pure exotics....or crosses. If rancher's decided to take your philosophy of "Whatever happened to conserving species for what they are?" and just focus on "pure" breeds they would probably not be as profitable and there might be less ranching and maybe even less pure breed animals. The crosses help pay the bills and there is a demand for them on hunting ranches.

And you know why I posted the pictures of the ram from the zoo in Afghanistan dated 1971..it was to show you how similar that ram looked to the one on Wildlife Buyer that you negatively commented on. The Seller of that "Afghan Urial Ram" has 113 reviews..all positive with one exception.. a guy rated him negative because a ewe he purchased had a cut leg. Maybe the Seller really believes it is a pure Afghan Urial....and maybe it is! You could certainly draw that conclusion from the pictures. Look at the range of the Afghan Urials...maybe there are variations. Where did the Priour brothers get his original Afghan Urial sheep..the San Diego Zoo? Where did the zoo get them?

By the way, you mentioned Ibex. Go read up on what is happening to Ibex in the wild in parts of their home range...they hybridize with domestic goats...and the hybrids are then running with the native ibex. So I guess those Ibex are all contaminated.

Also your comment that "most crosses it seems are pretty stupid and tame" rather subjective. Turn any sheep lose that has Mouflon or Urial into a large pasture and leave him alone and I bet he becomes pretty wild in a relatively short time.

If you are interested, there is a wild herd of Ibex in New Mexico, transplanted there 15 years ago, that can be hunted with over-the-counter tags on public land.

Reloader,
I believe you are mistaken. The Ibex license in New Mexico are on a draw basis not over the counter .. and it is hard to draw a tag.

It is a draw and VERY difficult to get drawn.

Kobus have you ever raised sheep? I've owned 1/4 to 7/8 urial rams ("mutts") and they were far from stupid and VERY far from tame....and I had 6 in a small 1/2 acre pen. Incorrect sir.