Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers

Posted By: pharmvet

Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/16/17 03:26 PM

Upon the advice of many on this forum and several others I have decided that I need to whoa break my pups. They are now about 10 -11 months old and have a good season of hunting under their belt. Regarding Whoa breaking, I have some questions.

1) when, during normal hunting situations, will you use the Whoa command?
2) what do you expect your dog to do when you give the Whoa command? In other words, will he simply stop? Will he assume a pointing stance? Etc, etc.

3) what method of who breaking have you found to be most successful?

Any and all advice in this matter is welcomed. Thanks!

Posted By: bill oxner

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/16/17 03:38 PM

It's my theory that a pup goes into a trance when it's pointing or backing. I never whoa when a dog is already pointing or backing. Some dogs style up on whoa and some don't. Here's my method.

Originally Posted By: bill oxner

I've had a few PMs asking about my training method. I did this on another forum, so I still have the pictures in my album, so here goes;

All bird dogs point. The breaking process teaches them to hold point. There are two ways to teach a dog to hold point, with dozens of variations. The first way is to let the birds train the pups. That generally involves launchers and pigeons, with some whoa breaking mixed in. It's very effective. I use the Delmar Smith method, substituting the e-collar for the bump under the chin. My dogs are completely whoa broke before I put them on birds. I use pen raised quail, because I can be done with them for the summer. I like to start in August, and finish in time for hunting season.

I start off on the whoa post. I introduce the e-collar the same day, that I introduce the whos post. Here's cracker on her first day with the whoa post;

I keep them on the whoa post only until I can get out in front of them, and then go to the yard for heel and whoa. Cracker tended to sit, so I had to start with the suitcase hitch. I go from the yard to longer walks. The pup has pretty well gotten it down after three weeks.

I then go from the walks to whoa in the field. Here's Cracker in the field in the field, before I put her on birds. This whole process has taken me around four weeks.

This is her first day on birds. I train alone, so I had to plant the bird, where I could wrap the CC around a bush. Notice the slack CC.

I kept her on the CC for three training days. She only went around on the bird one time. Here she is after 9 training flushes.

I started walking some of the birds out after a few days. Here you go;

A little side note. My birds were not recalling all that well, so I used Cookie to point them while I netted them;

A lot depends on the pup, and you have to adjust for each pup. Cracker has never taken out a single pointed bird or covey.

Posted By: 68rustbucket

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/16/17 05:17 PM

If your doing it yourself, order the silent command system DVD from Ronnie smith kennels

Posted By: Mundo

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/16/17 05:55 PM

Whoa basically allows you to control your dog in the field. The Ronnie Smith whoa post method works. It takes time (month and half to two months) but the dogs get it right. It is similar to what Bill uses. Once a dog is taught this method you can stop it in the field with a very low amount of collar stimulation (barely a tingle).
Use whoa to stop a dog. You DON'T use whoa to teach a point. After dog is more experienced you can use whoa to stop a dog when it isn't aware of birds -- like when you see birds and the dog is on the wrong side of the wind.
It is to keep a dog out of trouble, to make it stay in a spot out of the box before you start hunting, to stop the dog when it fails to honor because it hasn't noticed the other dog, to stop a dog when you change direction or when it starts to range too far. You will use it to stop a dog when you begin taking away the chase. It is a good practice to whoa a dog before it starts hunting--this sort of sets the tone of the hunt and lets the dog know what is expected. I do whoa drills all summer--taking the dog out for a walk and making it whoa several times and making it whoa before it goes though a gate or door.

Posted By: pharmvet

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/16/17 11:39 PM

Tell me about the "Whoa post".

Posted By: bill oxner

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/16/17 11:46 PM

Originally Posted By: pharmvet

Tell me about the "Whoa post".

It's a way to get in front of the pup. I think its over rated. You can do the same with heel and who.
I start off on the whoa post. I introduce the e-collar the same day, that I introduce the whos post. Here's cracker on her first day with the whoa post;

You also have to use the choke chain right. One way it chokes another way it pinches.

Posted By: bobcat1

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/17/17 12:40 AM

I always used a plastic drum. Hook them up to a chain above their head on their collar. Styling them up on the barrel all the while saying whoa repeatably in a soft voice. If they move I would bump the barrel with my knee and they would scramble around trying to stay on the barrel and I would say whoa more sternly. I would set them back up and say whoa and repeat until they stood for a bit. Get them going like that and soon they will hop up on the barrel and like it wagging their tail.

I would also put their food out after and make them whoa and stand there and when I released them with short toot on the whistle and say alright so they could eat. Now that all might have taken 6 months to perfect but when I whoa'ed a dog I wanted them to look as good as they did pointed and happy.

I started them on barrel and the food part as young pups. I bet it will work on your pups also. Mine never knew they were whoa broke. I never had more than 4 dogs so whoa training might have taken 20-30 minutes a day for all 4 dogs each day.

Posted By: bill oxner

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/17/17 01:05 AM

Originally Posted By: bobcat1

I always used a plastic drum. Hook them up to a chain above their head on their collar. Styling them up on the barrel all the while saying whoa repeatably in a soft voice. If they move I would bump the barrel with my knee and they would scramble around trying to stay on the barrel and I would say whoa more sternly. I would set them back up and say whoa and repeat until they stood for a bit. Get them going like that and soon they will hop up on the barrel and like it wagging their tail.

I would also put their food out after and make them whoa and stand there and when I released them with short toot on the whistle and say alright so they could eat. Now that all might have taken 6 months to perfect but when I whoa'ed a dog I wanted them to look as good as they did pointed and happy.

I started them on barrel and the food part as young pups. I bet it will work on your pups also. Mine never knew they were whoa broke. I never had more than 4 dogs so whoa training might have taken 20-30 minutes a day for all 4 dogs each day.

I did that as puppy training but I prefer collar conditioning.

Posted By: CinchMan

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/17/17 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: 68rustbucket

If your doing it yourself, order the silent command system DVD from Ronnie smith kennels

Better yet, go to his foundation training seminar April 8th & 9th, and he can show you first hand how to do it. The seminar is more for training the handler than the dog. I went last year and learned a lot. I'm actually going back this year as well. I'd highly recommend it.

Posted By: Mike Honcho

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/19/17 12:31 AM

Cinch man, I'm still trying to figure this out with my draht. She will point great but she will not hold. It seems to me like what bill said it's "natural", getting them to hold has been tough. She ends up wanting to sit when I say "woah". I'll be following this.

Posted By: blanked

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/19/17 01:03 AM

Hunt enough cover to keep birds from running

I use the e collar to whoa also. Walk with dog in front of you with a check cord and pinch collar. Give a soft tug with the check cord to get dog to stop. Stand next to dog while he stands still. If he moves tug on the cc and pick him up to set him back. Make him stand still longer and longer while you stand next to him so you can stop him and set him back if needed. Gradually start walking around him getting further and further away. If he moves walk to him and set him back. Keep your mouth shut the whole time until you release him. Then overlay the cc to the nick with the collar. Give dog a light nick. If he doesn't stop reinforce with the cc like you been doing. Eventually he will stop with the nick . Same thing walk around him , walk away from him making him stand longer and longer. Use the nick to stop him. Then pick him up and set him back. Do not use any birds to teach.

Gradually get to the point when dog is dragging the cc and you can stop him with the nick.

Posted By: Mundo

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/19/17 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By: jorge

Cinch man, I'm still trying to figure this out with my draht. She will point great but she will not hold. It seems to me like what bill said it's "natural", getting them to hold has been tough. She ends up wanting to sit when I say "woah". I'll be following this.

Show her lots of pigeons from a launcher. launch as soon as she gets scent so she learns that when she gets too close to the bird it will fly. She should become more cautious and begin to point when she realizes she is getting too close to the birds. Whoaing a dog that is bumping birds can lead to blinking. You want to set up a situation where the dog learns to point. You don't teach point with whoa.

Posted By: bill oxner

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/19/17 12:18 PM

Originally Posted By: blanked

Hunt enough cover to keep birds from running

I use the e collar to whoa also. Walk with dog in front of you with a check cord and pinch collar. Give a soft tug with the check cord to get dog to stop. Stand next to dog while he stands still. If he moves tug on the cc and pick him up to set him back. Make him stand still longer and longer while you stand next to him so you can stop him and set him back if needed. Gradually start walking around him getting further and further away. If he moves walk to him and set him back. Keep your mouth shut the whole time until you release him. Then overlay the cc to the nick with the collar. Give dog a light nick. If he doesn't stop reinforce with the cc like you been doing. Eventually he will stop with the nick . Same thing walk around him , walk away from him making him stand longer and longer. Use the nick to stop him. Then pick him up and set him back. Do not use any birds to teach.

Gradually get to the point when dog is dragging the cc and you can stop him with the nick.

I'm not trying to pick an argument but I think you should get away from the pup. Delmar Smith wrote (He didn't actually write the book) that you should take the pup off birds and don't put it back into the field until it is completely broke. I'd forget about birds until this fall. Even launched birds. Some pups like to watch them fly away. Take the pup on walks with the e-collar. Do heel and whoa. Walk away form the pup. Zip your lip. Teach, no enforce whoa with the collar. Make her stay there for up to a couple of minutes. All pups are not the same. Yours is still young. Patience is your friend.

Posted By: Mundo

Re: Need advice on Whoa breaking English Pointers - 03/19/17 05:07 PM

wirehairs, and drathars are often slower to develop than pointers. Bill's advice on going back to basic training before putting the dog back on birds is good advice. I would suspect that a dog that sits on birds has too much pressure on it --it is something like blinking. Whoa is to control your dog, not to teach it to point. The point is a natural instinct that comes out when the dog realizes it can't catch birds by rushing into them.
I like the Rick Smith method of training whoa-- it is time consuming but effective. You can find it on Rick's video--it is worth the money.
(Rick is the son of Delmar, so we are talking about the same method, tho it has evolved somewhat.) My advice on how to get her to point remains the same--lots of launched birds. But some basic work before you return her to the field would not hurt. I suspect you are trying to do too much, too fast. This is one of the most common training mistakes (along with too much collar).