East Texas quail restoration

Being born, raised, and residing in east Texas, and remembering the days when we had wild birds, I would love nothing more than to be involved in the restoration of quail back to this part of the world. I have read and studied everything I can get my hands on and am aware of the many factors suspected of having led to/caused the decline/extinction of quail in this region. I have spent lots of time talking with "old timers" in my area and I always ask them about the good old days. Specifically......I ask them what was different. They always come up with a few things, but the thing that comes up over and over again is that back in the 60's & 70's everyone here had a small "truck patch" of some sort. Corn, peas, beans, watermelons, etc. Bermuda grass was here, and there was no "native grass" . There was probably more pastures left ragged over the winter and allowed to grow up with broomsedge bluestem,.

It is my opinion that west Texas is and always has been "natural" quail country, and that east Texas had quail as a direct result of the ways in which we utilized our land during the first 3/4 of the 1900's.

This has me wondering..........if THE main difference in then and now is that there are no longer areas being regularly disked? I realize that beans, corn etc. was probable eaten by quail some, but I suspect that they benefited most from disturbance, succession, forb production, insects, bare ground, and dusting areas. I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter.

Quail are an eastern bird. East Texas is natural quail country.

one limiting factor that we usually have in abundance is RAIN

Alabama and Mississippi have birds, why doesn't east Tx? La, I don't know about.

Does AL and MS have huntable populations of wild birds?

I have known my land for 61 years. I am 67. 1956 my dad bought his first piece of farm land in 1956 from Walter A Moreland . The land was very over grown and had lots of quail. My dad like lots of new land owners started clearing trees and brush to make pasture land. And the quail lost their habitat. Predators and more plentiful.

I, too, grew up in deep east TX. Quail were plentiful and everyone had dogs when I was young. Habitat changes and fire ants are the main factors I hear for the disappearance of quail. They were gone so quickly I tend to lean towards fire ants or disease as the reason. I'm just guessing.

Certainly habitat changes have occurred - the two major ones being the disappearance of home gardens and clearing of fence rows.

Some restoration efforts are taking place, but I would love to see a major push to that end.

Left Miss. for Tx because of bird populations. I hear Miss. has some improvement. La is a wash as for hunting quail.

Not much in a hay field, creek bottom or pine forest for quail. Would be impossible to get enough landowners to let their hay fields grow back into native grasses to get the quail to rebound in East TX. IMO, Quail are gone for good in East TX. And fire ants have very little to do with it.

I believe back in the hey-day quail were most populous in East Texas compared to other regions of the state (I'll try to find the article I read that in). There are huntable populations of quail in western LA on public land in the pine forests, albeit they are probably in patches. I had a long discussion with a biologist over there and he pointed me in the right direction - just haven't had the time to check it out.

In your opinion, how many contiguous acres of PRIMO quail habitat would be necessary to have a wild bird population?

They all went the way of the dodo over about a two year period. I don't have the answer as to the reason, but that doesn't point to habitat loss as the sole reason.

^^^^^^^^^^ Sadly, I agree.

I doubt we will see 'good' populations of Wild Turkey either.

When I moved to Deep East Texas in the mid 80's there were a few quail, but they were already on their way out. I believe habitat change is more the reason than anything else.

Yes, "Fire Ants" are more widely spread than ever and they DO contribute to the problem, but I'd wager Feral Hogs are more damaging to ground nesting birds than ants.

Then consider the high population of other animals that seek out and eat the eggs of ground nesting birds.

Where I live the list is long:

Feral Hogs
Coyote
Fox
Raccoon
Possum
Skunks
Bobcat
Snakes

And that's just on the "A" list. There are other animals that will raid a nest too.

Yes, other States have these predators too, but we have them in great numbers. When combined with habitat change and the fact that most land holdings are small farms and ranches with little to no interest in Wildlife, you have an inhospitable environment for Quail (or Turkey for that matter).

I don't believe we will see any widespread success bringing either of them back.

Quail and Turkey had their time here... no going back

It makes me wonder if before Europeans came along and created widespread farming if the quail population wasn't much smaller and we aren't just returning to those smaller populations. So perhaps what we have now is more "natural".

I have thought that very thing.

I thought the same in the past but there is one key - the natives understood and valued the use of fire which helped maintain early succession habitats. Every one now days is scared to death of fire.

If you read Cabeza de Vaca's account of his time in Texas and an account of the expedition of Hernando de Soto you realize the native population was pretty thin, and not all of them were involved in farming.

Well not to dis pear we here at Poetry Shooting Club have quail, very flighty quail, quail you will miss, fast quail. so give a call make a time and come shoot some quail in the face.

How does one explain why east Texas WMAs have no quail.

Hogs and no predator control

And I hoping that in my lifetime....quail hunting would never degrade to the level of "Pigman the series".

Actually I wish hunting/hunters across the board would be a little more respectful of the game we pursue and how we present ourselves.

It has changed markedly (not all of it good) since I started 50 years ago.

Although I am "from" and "in" East TX, I have never set foot on an east TX WMA. Do they have proper quail habitat? I am planning to groom my property (currently 650 acres) into the most primo quail habitat possible. I realize this is very small scale, but I want to conduct my own little experiment. Sort of a "build it and they will come" thing. Honestly, I don't think there are any wild quail close enough to come. I have been working closely with our biologist, conducting prespcribed burns, and native grass restoration projects for the past 8 or so years. It seems that Texas parks and wildlife is beginning to take interest in quail restoration. I would like to have my property ready if there are ever any restocking efforts. The way I see it, even if I never get wild quail back, creating quail habitat will improve things for deer and turkey.
In the grand scheme, it really hasn't been that long ago since we had wild birds. I still have hope. However, it may be more than habitat. If so, we may need to provide optimal habitat and have the facts prove to us that wild quail "STILL" cannot thrive. If this is the case, we then can hypothesize that the acreage size is not adequate or that there is truly something else at play!
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Aren't you allowed to bring in birds without state approval?

A couple of years ago I had a small covey near my home. We raise cattle on a small 100+ ac farm. I made sure my dog stayed away when we went by the area I had jumped them several times. I had seen one pair near my sons house the next year, but I have not seen or heard them in over a year. We did not release any, and as far as I know no one else had. I miss seeing and hearing quail that we had back in the 70's.

Pen raised birds will not survive. You will need to bring in wild birds that have been trapped elsewhere. This is NOT legal without state approval.

Okay, this will be controversial, especially on this thread, but since quail are apparently so "fragile", is there another species of bird that could be imported that would serve as good game birds?

Banty's should do well, maybe guineas. I've thought about starting a wild population of both. So far the feral cats are winning.

Here in Bell County when I was a kid there were lots of quail but there all gone But whats weird is at Ft Hood on the impact area where its all native land there are quail and horny toads still.

How many acres in the FT Hood impact area?

saw a small group in Lamar county not long ago crossing the road, was really surprised to see them. I really wish they would make a come back - same with turkey.

Wikipedia says 63,000.

You can't hunt on the impact area or even go there

Theres really to many factors to even list and that's the big reason... but loss of habitat, human expansion, and the big ranches that are left are focused more towards livestock/hay or deer which isn't exactly prime quail habitat around here like south tx.

I use to turn loose 4,000 birds on the trinity bottom every year... they were hunted but avg of 1/10 were shot I bet... and that's a big bet... there was 500 acres designated for the quail hunts and were transformed into natural quail habitat... which even included game proof fencing grasses.. burns... brush piles ponds etc... the works.. I would keep an eye out all year for birds and you would see them every now and then ... the ones that lived were the ones that stayed around the lodge or camp houses that had yard or bird feeders... rarely would I see a bird or two by the time we were letting birds out by the next year.. and these were healthy birds in a huge fly pen that got worked regularly

If one assumes that loss of habitat is the primary cause for lack of quail..... and if one creates optimal quail habitat......and if there are still no wild quail.......then one has to assume that there are no wild quail close enough to repopulate the prime habitat.

If WILD QUAIL are trapped and brought into the newly created prime habitat, and they do not subsist, then one has hypothesize that there wasn't enough area (acreage) of prime habitat created. One then has to determine the minimal area of prime habitat to sustain a wild quail population, create that amount of prime habitat, and release WILD QUAIL into that habitat. If, at that time the quail do not subsist, then I believe it must be considered that there is SOMETHING other than habitat at play. Honestly, this simple experiment should not be too difficult for TPWD with the help of quail restoration organizations.

I have NOTHING against pen raised quail, but with regards to bringing quail back to areas they once inhabited, I dont think you can even use "pen raised" and "wild" quail in the same sentence. Just my thoughts.

The rabbit #'s are not like they use to be either

What he said. Feral hogs and fire ants are #1 &#2 in my mind.

I seen a small group up on our east Texas lease in Panola few years back. Just recently seen some while walking at a work site north of Monroe, LA. Man I wish I could see more of them and wild turkey. I use to see a bunch of woodcocks in our tree lines of our pastor at home in southeast texas...now I'm not seeing much of them either.

Man I love this conversation and wish it would result in the return of both qual and turkey. With that said look what I recently caught on a trail cam at my place in Leon county.

That's another thing.........what is it about turkey nests that allow them to escape nest predation? I'm sure some get raided, but obviously not all.......because we have Turkey in east Texas. This makes me think quail nests (not all, but some) can make it.

jmho
nobody traps anymore because of the crappy fur
market. start doing away with these smaller varmints
that eat all the turkey and quail, they'll come
back in east texas. there's plenty of quality habitat
out away from all the mini ranches and subdivisions
and the loose cats.

Congratulations for your efforts and Good Luck to you. Sounds like you have the right ideas.

Winter disking for firebreak and summer forb production

Let me throw one more into the mix. Trapping used to be very common years ago, coons, possum, ring-tails and even skunks were skinned for the hides, hell my uncle in Weatherford even skinned house cats for 50 cents apiece. Fox, coyotes and bob cats were the big money makers but everything had value. I did allot of trapping back in the 70's until the market pretty much went south and targeted yotes, fox and cat's primarily. There's a whole army of smaller critters we tend to ignore that just can't wait to find a quail nest.

I remember being a 14y/o kid out hunting rabbits in Wood county and stepping in the middle of a bunch of bobwhites. My first experience with them and almost had a heart attack.

I tend to agree with others, even though I did not see numbers in my life, my dad talks of hunting quail every day after school. He believes a culmination of things predators, hogs, ants, habitat, and disease all have contributed.

You know, I live on the 100+ acres my mother was raised on in East Texas and I hunted as a kid.
I see no quail now, as I did back in the day, but the one thing I do see more of that I didn't when
I hunted is hogs, hawks, and fire ants and a lot more of them.
Everything eats quail and quail eggs.
Just too many predators I guess, and nobody killing them. (wouldn't kill the hawks anyway.)

I have worked pretty closely with the Quail-Tech research group in the NTX rolling plains and cross timbers areas. Their research indicates that the hawk is the #1 culprit to quail mortality totaling somewhere around 60%. The rest is spread mostly through the other vermin and hogs, etc.

I watched during 3 different covey rises last week when hawks would fall in behind quail in flight across an open field. It has gotten to where the hawk is showing little fear to man or gun.

Habitat, habitat. Horned lizard is gone now as well. Curse bahia grass, old world bluestem, Bermuda grass, loss of small production farms, fire ants, ect

Makes sense, I learned when I was kid with my dad, when birds got wild, he would hawk call to make them hold. I still do this when I know the birds are running, works like a charm.

First off, kudos to PharmVet for taking the initiative to try and rebuild a wild population of quail. You never really know if it will work unless you try it. Kind of like a laboratory experiment, you never know if your hypothesis is true or not unless you test it.

IMO - the single most causative factor is habitat change (or as wildlife biologists often call it 'changes in land use'), with added contributions from whatever everyone else has mentioned in this thread. From the people I have talked to, the landscape across E. Texas has drastically changed over the past decades, and this is also believed to contribute to the loss of turkey populations in this region of the state. On a possible related note, habitat change has been strongly linked with the demise of pheasants across most of its prior range in the NE and many of the midwest farm states. For instance, southeast PA used to have one of the most populous pheasant populations in the US, now there are virtually no wild birds in any of PA. Changes in farming practice, for good or for bad, have contributed to the loss of native habitat for wild pheasants. Not sure if the same can be said of E. Texas quail? I also agree that depredation by hawks are an important factor. Many years ago it wasn't so uncommon to shoot a hawk, especially if you had vested interest such as farm animals. Again I am extrapolating this information from my experience growing up in PA from a long lineage of dairy farmers. Hawks were viewed as a major enemy to farmers. Not sure if this can be applied to E. TX quail? Hopefully nobody reads too much into this post, I am not advocating shooting hawks or any other bird species illegal to harvest, and I am certainly not anti-farmer.

I hunted and quail on national forest land and my deer lease in East Texas near Toledo Bend. Yes, public land has quail. However, the numbers will not sustain a bunch of hunts. It takes a lot of road time scouting places to hunt. I had family up there and would hunt around some of the old home places. We would find quail near these areas. We found as many as 13 coveys on one tract of national forest land. Once you find a covey, that covey would be in that general area year after year. On private places, new clear cuts would produce good habitat the first years. When the quail numbers were down we started hunting woodcock. In a good migration year, we would point 20-30 woodcock in a morning's hunt. That was plenty to shoot a limit of woodcock. Since they hold so well, they are great for training dogs. We hunted the area so much that our dogs learned where to look for woodcock. They would always go straight to the perfect habitat for woodcock. Hunting in east Texas is a lot of work and requires a lot of walking. The habitat is great for the dogs. The sand hills and pine straw made it easy on the dogs.

I sure miss hunting up there.

Works on cottontails too.

The general 'public' are also bad about shooting too many birds out of a covey. They will follow the birds (until they've scattered too badly to do so) and shoot as many birds as they can. That will quickly ruin a covey.

Sadly, there is little hunting etiquette practiced on public land!

I agree with Pharmvet. I just came in from being on the tractor creating fire breaks and will hopefully burn next week. I am attempting to bring back native habitat with varying degrees of success.

I am also a member of WNBRI (Western Navarro Bobwhite Restoration Initiative). As private landowners we are working to bring back wild quail that was once in this area again with varying degrees of success. Some members have native quail on their land. Each year we do whistle counts. Just this last year we were involved in quail relocation to a member's ranch. Several of the quail were radio collared and to date are still in the area. This will be an ongoing effort.

My 2 cents as to decline, habitat loss. If there is not a place for feeding, nesting and escape; there is no place to live. It takes a lot of contiguous acres for a sustainable population to survive.

While hunting last week we saw a red tail hawk sitting in a tree and he was close enough we could have killed him but we don't bother them. Dog pointed maybe a hundred yards from where Mr. Hawk was sitting and we shot the covey. One bird did the helicopter thing and I guess it got the hawks attention because he came and got the bird before the hunter could make the retrieve. No big deal but it happens. Still not going to shoot a hawk.