Check cord

I'm working with my 7 mo old pups. Taking them to hunt wild birds in 2 weeks.

Question: do you guys let young dogs drag a check cord while hunting wild birds? If so, when and how do you use the cord?

I think 7 months is a little old for a check cord and now a shock collar would be better if you chose to use one.

I did use one but the brush is too thick and gets tangled, can choke the dog, etc.

I might use one for maybe recall if I did bring one but that would be on a younger pup.

A 7 month old pup should still be having fun. I would not put a CC on one until after you have started some formal training. I have used one for much older than 7 months. Some of the wild and woolly pointer pups have used them well into their 2nd season. When the pup is going with you and handling pretty well to the front for a period of hunts, you can then slip it off. You will know when it is time.

When I did let one drag a check cord it was homemade from a lariat rope. They do not get tangled like a limp check cord.

This, use a check cord with solid core.

The best one I have ever seen was a trainer that used the main drive rubber v-belt off of a combine. He even used it on his trained dogs for resistance training in a conditioning program. It was about 20 ft. long.

Definitely needs to be stiff.

I agree that you should not let the pup drag the CC. However, I would have one handy in case I wanted to bring the pup in to back or work some known singles. I don't mind letting the backing pup getting in the scent zone. In fact, I encourage it.

Why should a pup not pull a check cord Bill? I have seen National Champion AA Horseback trainers use it, Hall of Fame trainers use it, and I have used it for 40 years myself. I am not sure a wild a$$ pup is going to let you catch him in the field in the middle of the excitement of pointed dogs to let you snap it on?? If for nothing else, you stomp on the rope to stop the dog for backing or to even catch the wild ones at times. I am a firm believer that you can't hunt and train pups at the same time. You have to do one or the other. Even when hunting, when young dogs are on the ground, if the older dogs are pointed, you have to decide what you want to do...hunt or train. Training takes precedence for me every time. Have you not had a marked covey, like one that you have seen cross the ranch road, that you got the pup out of the box and snapped a CC on him to go and try to work? You have to create perfect scenarios in training and the CC cord is another tool to assist. My best dog pulled one for a full season when he was younger just so I could get him stopped around the prime time situations. He is no worse for wear for it. At the end of the day, the CC is not so much for training as it is for stopping a dog. If he breaks point and flushes a covey, you stop him. Not honoring another pointed dog, you stop him. Wild and can't catch him to put him up, you stop him hard. I love the e-collar when it is time for it. There is not a better tool for us to use, but only on older pups and derbies. Pups up 7-9 months old at my house are only going to see the checkcord. Younger pups than that are going to run by themselves in the training field willy-nilly.

Hmmmm. I don't see the logic in hunting wild birds with a pointer dragging a cc around. For one cc are typically 20 feet or so. What's the point in having a pointer learn to hunt only 20 feet from you so you can stop him at any time? The whole idea of having a pointer is so they range out and cover ground so you don't have to. Also I want the birds to tell my pup when to stop and point. Not me holding him back

When I start formal training on pigeons in a controlled enviornment then I will be telling the dog when I don't want him chasing birds with a cc initially. Then I will reinforce it with the e collar training. when hunting wild birds use the e collar in place of a cc

NorthTex is absolutely right. One of the best pups I ever started would come within a couple of feet and then go on hunting. Put the CC on him and the next time he came by I told him "hear" and stepped on the cord, it took only a time or two for him to get with the program. I have three young pups this fall and will put them all down on marked coveys after they begin to flash point with the CC on. I can stop them and when they hold and I can shoot a bird for them I can keep them in to hunt dead. Until they flash point they will run free and find birds.

Your question about why would you want them only 20 feet from you hunting isn't correct you can let them drag a solid core CC with out them getting hung up and until you have control it's a good way to stop them etc. It's a great tool for the occasional pup that doesn't hit the ground broke.

Your question about why would you want them only 20 feet from you hunting isn't correct you can let them drag a solid core CC with out them getting hung up and until you have control it's a good way to stop them etc. It's a great tool for the occasional pup that doesn't hit the ground broke. [/quote]


How are you going to stop a pup by the cc when pup is out beyond the length of the cc. Pup isn't going to learn anything if you can only stop him some of the times when needed

I think a lot depends on the age of the pup. A fall pup can not do much running during the first season. A spring pup can bogy. A fall pup can be collar conditioned before its second season. I've had two. Both never needed a CC.

I prefer the spring pups. They are more fun the first season.

How are you going to stop a pup by the cc when pup is out beyond the length of the cc. Pup isn't going to learn anything if you can only stop him some of the times when needed [/quote]


Not sure what you think a 6 month old pup knows but the cc is to stop him if you call him in and he doesn't come all the way, with the CC you have 30ft handle. And my pups learn to flash point from the birds. When they learn they can't catch them they will start to flash point and then I can get to the CC and stanch them up. It's worked for 50 years.

Just to make it clear the young pups run with out a CC till they flash point. They will come in for water. It's when they start to flash that I'll use the CC and if I run them with another dog I'll put the CC on to make sure they back.

Exactly!!!!!!!! This is how I was taught as a 12 year old kid on. Those wild birds are the absolute best training tool we as hunters will ever get. They will teach those pups far better than we can simulate. Whoever has young dogs and a place to hunt this year may wind up with some of the best dogs of your lifetime. Good luck!

*1, leave the dam cc off, do some basic training, to many dogs are ruined by people that do not know how to train. like the old saying "you have to be smarter than the dog" which is doubtful in most case's

Seven months is on the bubble. It depends on the pup.

Wow, you're talking to a lot of bird hunters who have done a lot of training. I realize you must know more than most folks on the board but maybe not all. I guess I need to get on the phone and let several (most all) the pro handlers who have been ruining dogs for years with the CC. You may want to think about the fact that there are a bunch of successful folks out there that have been using the CC as an integral part of breaking a pup for years. And maybe calm down a little before you say that folks that use it are dumber than their dogs. Thanks

As the saying goes....let's see what you got.

Anytime you want to see my "ruined checkcorded" dogs, you let me know.

I doubt there is a trainer in business today that is using the same training methods for the last 50 years. Remote launchers, e collars, are the core of pointing dog training.

Hunting wise GPS tracking collars is the biggest advancement since the ecollar.


As I mentioned earlier. Use the cc in a controlled training enviornment then use the e collar when hunting to reinforce the cc


But 7 months old train pup to come ( by voice/ e collar ). And gun condition. Then just take him hunting and let the birds do the rest this season

I concur. They shot their dogs in the old days. One 7 month dog may be ready for collar conditioning while another may not be. I never ran my last two pointers with a CC but they were both 10 months old. They hunted with the e-collar from day one. My HTA pointer pointed over 50 coveys her first year and bumped one. She won our regional NSTRA trial at a year and a half.

Agree to what you are saying for the most part. I use all of the devices you have mentioned. Where we differ is the age of the pup when applying the e-collar. I am not going to shock a dog in his first season. I am certainly not shocking a 7 month old pup. But I am not expecting a pup to be perfect at that age either. I want the pup to turn his own light on. I will help him correct his mistakes along the way. The CC is the primer to get him to this point of applying the e-collar. My pups usually don't get the e-collar until their second season.

What if its an October pup and not hunting the first season?

I respect most of all the previous post, I am old school, never used electronics (different hunting conditions that Texas) every dog (pup) is different as breeds are. I had a setter that did not mature until he was a long 2yr old, turned out to be the best I had ever owned and the best locals had ever seen, his pup were totally opposite, they would point & back at 6 months naturally. remember this, on here we are hearing the best results, anyone venture to guess how many dog, pups are ruined by cc or improper methods. I once worked with cutting horse's, another trainer that was working, when he didn't know what to do when any particular horse made a mistake he would beat hell out of and abuse, I couldn't say anything because he was the owners son n law, I end up quitting.

My fall pups will get in the field towards the end of the season. I have a pup right now that I put in the field last year with only a CC at 5.5 months old in South Texas. She started holding birds on her third contact. That was in December of last year. I entered her in a friendly gun dog club trial in early March just for fun against dogs of all ages. She ran against 24 dogs through elimination brackets. She was named the Champion at 8 months old. She has never seen a shock collar yet. She ran with a CC her entire first season. This trial was the first time that she ran without one. She will be conditioned for e-collar this season, but I don't anticipating having to use it much. She is such a natural! She found, pointed, held, and retrieved the first wild bird I ever shot for her at 5.5 months old. From December until the end of the season, I killed over 50 birds over her. She was dragging the CC every step.

Colt, I will guarantee you with utmost confidence, that more dogs have been abused and ruined by the e-collar than the CC. I use both, but I think I understand when, where, and how to use both. For me, it is all about timing and maturity and competence of the pup.

The beauty of GPS trackers is there is no need to be hacking the dog to hunt close. Also the beauty of wild birds training dogs there's no reason to open your mouth / correct the dog.

This means very little e collar is used first year

We agree! My dogs are not shoe shiners at all. The only time I may whistle or call on them is when we may have a change of course and I want to bring them around to the front. If I have a dog on point, nobody is to say a word. Just get your butt up there for the flush. I use a lot of hand signals with the hunting party around pointed dogs.

I had a pointer named Sis that went to a trainer who suggested that it might be best if she drug a chain the first year.

Well, looks like some here use them and some don't. I have been using one in training here around the house for past few weeks and one thing I will say is that I have become a regular Will Rogers with regard to the rope and keeping if from entangling me and the dogs!

This is a fun thread. I'm not arguing with anyone, just pointing out that all bird dogs don't need the same type of training. Here's a perfect example. Yeats was whelped on 10/2/2010. He backed the first dog he ever saw pointing. We were hunting on 2/21/2011 from my Gator. Yeats could not yet keep up, much less drag a CC. We'd put him down when we got into birds. We posed this picture while he was backing my pointer. He was sent to a trainer the following September and came back fully broke and collar conditioned. When would you have had a chance to let Yeats hunt with a CC? What would have been the purpose?


My last two pointers were in the same age range their first year.

You answered your own question, all pups are different.

Yet, some argued.

exactly

Bill, Chet,
It appears that all of us have been around this game a long time. The greatest times of my life, outside of the births of my kids and my granddaughter, have been in the field chasing birddogs. We all know that all pups are different and require different methods of training at different times. That is what makes this sport so rewarding in that you have conquered whatever it takes to make a birddog more perfect than his natural genetics will allow him. I am going to get deep right here....but a pup will tell you when it is time to break him. Only you will know this by his change in behavior in the field. When you can tell that the pup is hunting for a purpose instead of running to hear the wind blow in his ears, you know it is time. When they start bumping birds, chasing, flash pointing, going with you and handling a little bit, looking for dead birds at shot, they are really screaming out "break me!, break me! I am ready!" I know all of us have different ways of handling and training, and they all work. At the end of the day, if we all get a really fine dog that will completely finish, I don't guess it really matters how we got there. It's all good! We will all continue to use the methods that we are comfortable with. Like I have mentioned before, I try to get and keep my dogs to a field trial standard because that is the bar I have set for myself even though I have not trialed in years. So far it is working, I am happy, and we are having great success together, me and the dogs.

Turn the rope loose!!!! let him drag it.

You still don't get an October or November pup. Most can't keep up at the end of quail season much less drag a CC. They go to the trainer in August or September and come home to hunt at one year old, when they no longer need a CC. They run broke derbies nowadays.

First of all, I am not asking the pup to keep up at that age. He can dang sure keep up with me though. I am only going to run the pup by himself or with another pup. I will play with them at that age and break them the next fall before season. Also, I put a smaller check cord on younger pups. A pup 4-6 months old can pull a 15' with ease but only about 30 minutes. That's enough.

Couldn't agree more. I have always believed that Ferrel Miller had it right when he said "when they start flash pointing they are asking for some help". When the birds have given them a secondary education I send them to college. Some use the collar, some use only hands and voice and I know a old timer in Kansas who breaks them with the CC just as he did for 40 years before the collar was available. NTB is correct, they all will work and it comes down to what you are comfortable with and works for you. Nothing makes the hair on you neck stand up like a finished dog slamming into a point. Hope we have good bird numbers for the foreseeable future so all can enjoy the sport of gents.

We ran a 20ft trailer cord on our dogs when they were younger, but I found it was easier for us to track them... heh. We stopped when we heard a dog got hurt when it almost got strangled by one of the cords. (not our dog.. we heard about it from another hunter)

We have also used e-collars / shock collars, but it is never more than an "attention getter". The real "abuse" happens when people use it to 'teach' vs getting the dog's attention.

Then again, we were always lucky because we had good bred dogs so they were not that big a problem. I think I saw a guy get mad at his dog once for pointing butterflies and shocked the dog till my dad took the thing away from him.. heh

Inexperience causes abuse, not the device, I think.

Anyway, just yakkin as this is an interesting thread and I am bored to death :P

R

Chet,
I sold a derby male setter to a guy one time before season, telling him that the dog was not broke at all. Well, about the end of December, he calls me and tells me that he wants his money back. When I asked why, he told me that this was the sorriest dog he had ever had because he ran up 18 coveys of birds that weekend. When I asked him how many his grown dogs pointed, he told me either 2 or 3. Man, a smile came on my face like never before. I gave him his money back graciously and hunted the dog another 12 seasons. I had him holding his birds well before the end of that particular season. Ol' Doc probably had a couple of thousand quail and pheasants killed in front of him. But it just shows you that a good pup will practically beg you to break them. Patience and lots of birds are the key. Plus, you have to recognize what you are looking at.

Now that's a heck of a story.

Here is a few pictures of Annie this week. I have been working with her the past couple of weeks. I was hoping she would be where she left off at the end of last season, but that was not the case. When I would take her out to work all she wanted to do is run as hard and fast as she could not hunting but just running. She would blow through coveys and just keep running full bore not showing any signs of wanting to chase after the birds when flushed. I have since got out of the Mule and just drop her when birds are flushed and hunt them up with her on a check cord. I have not shot any yet and will not I think till I have her back to where I want her. She is getting closer to what I want, but still not there yet.

Well she's not the first pup to blow up their second season if that's any consolation. Sounds like you're going in the right direction with her. Having a good bird population should help. Good luck.

I would be hesitant about running a dog with a checkcord if they are not within sight at all times, and especially around brush. Too easily to get tangled. That pup needs to be able to work birds unencumbered. He will eventually learn he is not going to catch them (wild birds),and begin holding his points. Granted, it takes some longer that others to come to that conclusion. But, that is what has to take place for the magic to happen.