Re-thinking duck gear due to recent tragedies

While reading about these recent deaths during duck hunts it has made me re-think duck clothing in general. When contemplating traditional gear you realize that most of the clothes typically worn are very poor insulators when wet. Also the clothing works against you if you actually had to swim while wearing it. I think a lot of this has to do with the fit of the gear which usually is very bulky loose fitting. While I was in college I was on the water ski team and I frequently skied in water temps down in the 40s with air temps in the 30s with few problems of being overly cold even after a 30 min session.

Maybe we have made a mistake by trying to use 'regular' hunting fabrics in the wrong environment. I am thinking that maybe there should be a major shift in duck hunting gear to more closely resemble surfing gear. 1mm neoprene can be made to fit very comfortably and could easily be backed with fleeces to provide for better comfort. A very light spring wet suit could be easily worn as a base layer to ensure maximum insulation if submerged. Also these fabrics are incredibly warm when completely wet due to persperation. Also these fabrics are naturally buoyant even without a life jacket used.

I think the current clothing would have to modified for our particular sport but it seems more logical to use this type of 'system' versus what we have been typically using.

Here are some options that I think could converted/modified be made for duck hunting.

Wet suit vest

Long sleeve

Hydroskin Pants

The majority of drowning victims were not wearing a life jacket. It doesn't matter what you wear, if you aren't wearing a life jacket, you aren't giving yourself a fighting chance. The other problem is the boats that people are hunting in. I understand that some people cant afford a 20ft gator trax. Others do not simply know how to properly handle a boat in rough water. Everyone controls their own actions, no matter what is out there for purchase.

While everything you said is true, I don't see why taking gear that is designed to be worn by humans in cold water and adapting it for duck hunters would be a bad idea. If it was some expensive specialty item that added inconvenience or was cost-prohibitive, then it wouldn't be worth it. But if it's nothing more than wearing Pants/Jacket A instead of Pants/Jacket B because Pants/Jacket A work in cold water and Pants/Jacket B don't, then what's the issue?

At some point back in time, someone probably said, "Wearing a huge floating thing around your body is stupid and inconvenient. Just learn how to handle a boat and you'll be fine. And you know how to swim, right?"

Accidents are gonna happen--------its not possible to be 100% safe. When boats are involved the accident rate goes way up, add freezing cold and high winds and it goes way way up. The bad news for "us" is that these kids were taken out of the gene pool and the snow flakes that are in college safe rooms are still in the gene pool. So its a loss for us all.

For years and years duck hunters have worn basically the same materials. Designing a new material or new "system" of clothing will not make a difference in the hunting market. Giant waterfowl companies like drake and banded (to name a couple) make quality products that are "ground breaking" in warmth and performance. Now, that being said, I do think buying waders and clothes that fit properly and aren't to bulky is a great way to save yourself some future stress should a situation arise. If you'll pay attention to the people that are involved in these accidents then that will tell you all you need to know. A father and son on tawakoni were out on a day that to windy for the BEST of boats. The boys in the bay were young and had no life jackets. Having the ability to stay home on bad weather days (or walk in), slow down in stump fields (even though your "boat can take it"), and have common since to wear life jackets and make the safe decision is really what saves lives. Not the clothes that they were wearing. Risk management starts WAY before you get to the lake. Not once a problem occurs

Isn't that the point of clothing though... that when accidents do happen you have the best chance of surviving it. Even the best clothing by Drake/Banded are very poorly designed for an aquatic environment. If you don't believe me just find someone with a wet suit and challenge them to a swimming race in 40 degree water while you wear the top of the line Drake/Banded gear. Most likely you get hypothermia and can't no longer use your best survival mechanism.. your brain... because it shuts down in these temperatures while they are leisurely swimming to shore.

Imagine you get thrown in the water with dry suit used by surfers for winter conditions. You're brain will not shut down in the short length of time it would in cotton/wool/synthetics compared to a dry suit. You wouldn't be struggling against your gear but you would float comfortably in relative warm.

Here is another example...Does anyone here put layers of wool on their dog and expect them to swim well and stay warm in harsh conditions or did you purchase a neoprene 'wetsuit' specifically made for dogs?

I'm with you. UA or Drake should make neoprene waterfowl hunting gear. I think it would make a lot of sense especially for those who regularly hunt in colder temps. For me, I might need it once or twice a year.

I think its fine to prepare for the worst as far as clothing but keep in mind almost all (and probably all) these tragedies are happening while braking all laws of safety while in a boat. I'll take 100% cotton clothes while NOT breaking boat safety laws before I put on the best clothing and go be stupid in the boat. But sense I have a choice I'll obey all safety rules on boating and clothing. The dad/son on Tawk can't even be considered in these conversations....that dad was 100% CRAZY/STUPID for even being on the lake in that boat. I would like to know how the 3 young adults on the coast got into the water (waves, hit something, driver error etc). The country singer that died last year....they were in yet another VERY small craft were they not?

Surfers routinely go out into 10-15' waves in 40 degree temperatures with 'craft' that are much smaller than the boats listed and survive regularly. That also includes being thrown from their 'boats' and sometimes being held down in freezing water. I can't help but think if surfers had to wear 100% cotton/wool duck clothing that there would be many more deaths. Granted on average surfers are much more athletic than the typical duck hunter, but that still doesn't change the fact that basic duck hunting clothing has no protective value when totally wet.

Think about white water rafting and that clothing... it is much more similar to surfing gear than duck gear.

I see that I won't make any treadway with this group, but just something for y'all to think about next time your arms get wet while putting out decoys.

I am in agreement with you. A much more practical opportunity is out there. I think you should take your idea and run with it. Hit up some of these manufacturers or put a plan together for yourself.

I assume many people have never been in a wet suite, or involved in any of your examples, but I imagine they would end up being customers.

Yep see if you can't get the wheel in motion if you will.

There are several issues with using neoprene for hunting.

Neoprene is not very durable, especially when setting and retrieving decoys in brush, rocks or any other abrasive landscape. In the thicknesses that would be required in order to be a "life saver" from hypothermia it is hard to put on/take off, restricts movement, is impractical to layer, bulky, heavy, etc.. One of the big drawbacks is that it builds up heat rapidly and doesn't breathe or wick away sweat/heat. So on days you're not floating in the water waiting on rescue, every moment in the suit is misery. The scuba industry probably has the most innovation when it comes to cold water immersion suits. Some have internal liners, o-ring seals at neck, ankles, hands, etc.. but again, they are not something you are going to wear on a hunt. If you are just talking about keeping hands, feet and arms dry then there are already products for that. If you are talking about full immersion in cold water survival suit, it's going to be hard to mix the qualities needed to save you from hypothermia with the qualities needed to perform regular hunting tasks.

http://us.billabong.com/shop/product/mens-wetsuits-jackets-vest/202-rev-tribong-jkt-1?color=CMO

Don't wear waders in the boat, put on a life jacket and that will give you a chance if you fall out of the boat.

I'm not saying that having specialized thermal protection is a bad idea. I'm talking about the practicality. Having been a dive master and having been in wet suits, dry suits, and semi dries, I can fully express my appreciation for that clothing technology. However, what is the first thing I would do (and tell students to do) upon getting out of the water? Take the suit off or pull it half down and put on regular warm and dry clothing. I've seen MULTIPLE people get faint or pass out from the constricting nature of neoprene when the sun is beating down (even though it's cold out). As a surfer that has neoprene, I ask you this: How long do you sit on the surface before getting into the water? My guess would be a relatively short time. Could you put on a wet suit, set decoys, build a blind, go hide a boat, walk back to the blind, sit for however long the hunt takes, go pick up the boat and decoys then ride back to the ramp? I would be miserable before I even made it to the spot. Neoprene is NOT designed for dry use. My argument is not against the life saving capabilities of neoprene in the water, but rather the life saving capabilities of good planning, risk management and common sense.

Matty, I agree that there is a market for this, especially for the guys that use boats. I'm not sure if neoprene is the answer, but surfers, kayaker and divers are a good place to start.

There is room for improvement in the clothes we wear when hunting. A PFD might keep you from drowning, but the next issue - hypothermia - will get you. If you're far away from your truck, this would be a problem. I'd be for another layer of protection while hunting in very cold temperatures, even if it's only for a few trips a year.

100% disagree. Todays neoprene waders act like a big life jacket. Neoprene waders AND a life vest are what I would want on me if I ever went in the water. I would then back stroke to the boat or shore....knowing I'm not going down. I do wonder about the guys wearing breathable waders in the boat though.

Surfers are generally near there access points also. Nice change of warm clothes nearby. Duck hunters can be far from their put in spots. Its nice to be able to say. "man I'm cold, lets go back to the house/car and warm up". When your 5-10 miles down a body of water your on your own.

I think the answer lies with what Pintail said, most simply drown. You can survive wet and cold alot longer than you can underwater. I don't have the facts on why these guys didn't make it, but I suspect it's not from exposure.

Charlie

We used to wear wet suits and dry suits when wake boarding in the winter months on the delta in California. A wound always get cold while wearing a wet suit. You'd ride for a few minutes then get back in boat and wrap up in a blanket. With a dry suit, we were able to wear clothing underneath while riding. The suit is made to keep your close dry while in the water.

With that said, I would never wear either one while hunting. IMO, be smart while in a boat. If your boat is too small to handle the big waters of our lakes, leave it at the house or stay in the back waters. If there is a bad storm blowing in, stay home, or walk in to a spot and not risk flipping or submerging your boat. These storms aren't a secret, we know when they're going to hit.

If you're going to be in a boat, wear a PFD, especially in the dark. IMO, stay away from the inflatables, because there's no guarantee they will deploy. I like a regular PFD because of the extra padding and know it will help protect my mid section if I am throw from the boat or hit a widow maker(stump, floating log). If I'm running my bass boat or duck boat, I have my PFD on whenever the big motor.

Full body wetsuit, warm and safe for boat ride, but a pain to put on and take off, and you will not hunt with it on.

Accidents are going to happen- but 90% plus can be avoided. Don't be ignorant. Wear a life jacket. Pretty simple. If I didn't own property, I would have 2-3 good leases and use some reputable guides. Some people just get a rise out of public hunting. No never hear of a duck hunter drowning on their private lake or ponds.

When I was in my 20's and 30's or younger- had no problem with it. I wear a life jacket when I put out dekes- mainly in 3-24 inch water- never know- use common sense. You don't go out in front of a huge front with your 5 year old without a life jacket. That's plain ignorance and idiocracy. Period.

Day before yesterday 1:40hr from Fort Worth. Sad deal but accidents happen everywhere.
Link to story

As someone who used to windsurf in sub freezing temps, I gotta tell you that wetsuits and neoprene isn't the answer.

The best idea is probably to get out and run your boat ion warm windy days and learn your limits. Running your craft in adverse conditions is a learned skill and it's easier during day than night.

If you haven't every run a boat in a 20-30mph winds, in the daylight, when it's warm for practice...what would make you think you could do it in the dark when a mistake will kill you?

I know it's not possible on all waters, but when boating to my spot, I stay as close as possible to the shoreline just in case, but I have a 14ft boat with a 15hp. If the wind is over 10mph, it stays at home.

I think we all have the chance to think about what we do and ask ourselves if we can do it safer. On one of our early hunts my friend and I both shot limits from his express. The next day he said that when he was thinking about the hunt he realized that we did not put our life vests on. We have not forgotten since then and it was a smooth calm day but that could have been a bad day.

I have an 18 ft G3, I keep my neoprene vests and wear my 3 mil waders, they will help me float if I hit the water. Drowning is the first issue followed closely by hypothermia. I stay close to shore and can walk to a car or nearest house if I had to. Please use these three unfortunate incidents to see what you can do to stay safe.

Regarding the OP, I wear neoprene waders and even when they leak and they all do eventually, they never leak bad enough for me to get cold but I want to hunt dry. I do not think neoprene would work since you end up wet and it tears. If there was truly a material that worked, I would be all for it...

There were a lot of good concerns brought up about wearing neoprene outside the water for an extended period of time. Part of the reason I was thinking about this route was I saw the article below talking about what NFL referees wear to keep warm on cold days. I was thinking if these guys can run up and down the field with pros for 3 hrs then maybe there is something to using this in duck hunting.

no way in hell you are making to the shore with waders full of water... your waders will turn into 1 big drift sock.

Y'all need to gain some weight! Mine fit me like a banana peel!

And when its 25 degrees with a 10 mph wind what are you wearing to keep from freezing to death on your boat ride...that will NOT bog you down should you go in?

NOBODY NOBODY NOBODY gets into my boat without wearing a Wader Belt. Yes a Life Jacket is essential, but a Wader Belt is just as important. Even if you are wearing a life jacket when you go into the water and your waders fill up you can still wind up in big trouble from hypothermia if not drowning.

I like all duck hunters have taken spills while hunting and I always come up as dry as when I got out of bed that morning because my wader belt keeps water out of my waders and the right kind of fitting jacket keeps my upper body dry.

Not many folks realize that if you are wearing a tight wader belt your waders will serve as wonderful flotation device because they are full of air.

If you go in wearing waders, immediately pull your knees to your chest. Between doing that and properly wearing a wader belt, you will trap air. Combined with a life jacket or flotation parka you will float quite well.

I always recommend to new canoe kayak hunters to take their new boat out in shallow water during warm weather and find its failing point. Then learn to upright the boat and pull yourself back into it. You can paddle a boat full of water easier than you think.
Do this with waders on if you normally wear them in the boat.

And know that in a real cold open water situation, your dog will likely panic and try to climb onto you. And not unheard of for anyone else dumped into the water to reach an uncontrolled self preservation panic stage and do same. Be calm and aware.

Kill switch kill switch kill switch!!!!

There has been a lot of talk on here the past week about the cold water deaths of several duck hunters this year as well as the Oklahoma deaths last year. Wilderness survival has been a passion of mine for many years. Cold water survival is something I have studied as well. I thought I'd post up some of the things I do while ot duck hunting in preparation to survive an accident. I hunt mostly alone and prefer it that way. So to me there is that added risk.

Some of what I do some of y'all may consider silly and overly cautious but I'm fine with that because I know my chances are much much higher that I'll be returning home to my family than those who do nothing to prepare for a cold water immersion.

First off cold water impairs you ability to think clearly almost immediately. Those of you who think you will just swim to shore and walk to the nearest house for help. Good luck with that and let us know how it goes. Immobilization can come in as quick as 15 minutes. Impaired judgement comes very quickly as well. The goal is to stay very calm, get to shore and get warm. Often death occurs within the first minute due to cold water shock and panic, causing one to inhale cold water. Keeping calm will help prevent that.

Once your past the initial 1st minute you need to immediately get to shore and get warm. If you can’t get out in 5-15 minutes, you might not get out on your own power! The swimming motion will actually speed hypothermia due to constantly moving fresh cold water next to the body and preventing a warm water layer from forming next to your skin. Also your increased heart rate pumps the cold blood from your extremitilies back into your core and cools the body faster. So get to shore fast. If you have any dry clothes in a dry bag, do that first. Otherwise get your wet clothes off and get in An emergency bivy. It can be a life saver. Get one, they are cheap and will fit in your life vest pocket. Skip the emergency blankets and get the fully encapsulating bag version instead.

After only 5 to 15 minutes of exposure you can have impaired ability to think, the inability to do simple tasks with your hands, such as striking a bic lighter holding on to a rope or even immobilization or unconsciousness.

I always carry a survival kit attached to my life vest and a dry bag of warm clothes clipped to my life vest while operating my motor boat in inclement weather or darkness.

The survival kit which is attached to my life vest, has an emergency bivy, whistle, signal mirror, compass, pocket knife, Bic lighter, magnesium rod, ferro rod, wet fire tinder that burns when wet, and even a can of sterno. Sterno lights easily and can then be used to build a fire on top of. My kit also has a small Altoids tin with some fishing gear, but that's because I use it for other purposes as well.

I also keep a knife on my vest and some chemical hand warmers in the vest pocket when in cold water.

I will also keep a seal line dry bag with extra fleese tops and bottoms, a down jacket, wool socks a fleese hat, and compressible down boots. This has a 2 foot sling and carabiner on it. I will simply clip it to my life vest as I'm going across the lake. This ensures if I'm thrown from the boat, it goes with me!

This is just what I do. Does it guarantee my survival.... no. In situations like this death comes quick as does the ability to make sound decisions. But it does give me a chance for survival compared to almost certain death!

Sorry for the long post but it's hard to be detailed in few words. If it helps save one life then it was worth It.

Also here are a couple of informative resources on cold water survival for those interested.

http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm


http://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/coldwater1.pdf

I think most people are unaware at how fast hypothermia happens and kills.