Game Warden Actions - Questionable or Legal?

This didn't happen to me, but to a friend this past weekend. Interested to get the general thoughts on it.

They got checked at the boat ramp and everything seemed to be legal. Turns out my friend had a stick instead of a proper plug in as his plug. When the GW went to check his gun for the plug, the stick stopped the GW's measuring stick initially at a legal length. The GW shoved it in again and broke the "stick plug" in his gun. GW proceeded to issue a (relatively expensive) ticket to the guy for not having a plug in his shotgun.

Thoughts?

Initial thoughts are that he had a barrier in there while hunting that prevented him from putting more than 2 shells in the magazine. The GW had to essentially 'break' his equipment to make it illegal.

Other hand is that it didn't prevent the GW from forcing it by hand to be illegal.

The game warden is following the letter of the law. A stick is not a plug.

That's just a game warden being a prick.

Sounds like one of those things.. he can rightfully do that, as the law says it must PREVENT the use of more than three shells. Is he being a D%$# about it? You bet!

What is the definition of a plug then? It prevented 4 shells, until he broke it.
A-hole GW in my opinion... He'd probably write me up just because I can float a 4th...

That was what I was thinking...does it have to be made out of plastic or metal? Sounds like he broke the equipment to me.

Just has to prevent more than 3 shells total and can not be removed without disassembling the gun, no where does it say what it can and can't he made of. I've used pencil, Dowell rods, sticks, all kinds of things.

doesn't have to be - they used to be made out of wood, but it hast to be sturdy enough to where you can't force a fourth shell in there

In one of my guns i have a bic pen with a cap on each end. Works fine. In another, i cut off about 8 inches of a broken easton axis full metal jacket arrow. Might be the most expensive plug out there (it was an emergency)!

X2

All it says is:

"Shotguns capable of holding more than three shells must be plugged with a one-piece filler which cannot be removed without disassembling the gun, so the gun's total capacity does not exceed three shells."

Page three, right column: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_k0700_1014.pdf

My opinion is based on your telling of the story, which is all we have to go on.

If the stick he was using as a plug didn't allow more than two shells (prior to being forcibly broken by the Game Warden) and it was a one-piece rod that he could only remove by disassembling the gun, then I don't see how the ticket is lawful.

How is this different than a cop breaking your taillight with his nightstick and then writing you a ticket for having a broken taillight?

I don't know because I wasn't there and don't know all the circumstances. But look at it from the GW point of view. Someone is using a plug that has some "thought" and premeditation to it, then it is clear they are complying or attempting to comply with the law. A "stick" can be picked up at the last moment as someone sees the GW coming. There is no advance thought or planning.

And while a stick must be just as effective as any other plug, if it so easily broken, and the GW suspects that it might have been a "last minute" attempt to avoid a ticket - he'll write you up. Heck, I probably would if I was him if I thought it was a dodge.

But a ticket is not a conviction. If you truly feel it was wrong, then go to court and plead your case. Gather your evidence and tell it to the judge - you might prevail.

I agree he was an A-hole and I'm not siding with the warden, but right or wrong it is his interpretation.

Go to court, it will be your buddy's word against his. Your buddy will lose every time. I have an ap on my phone that is on my home page, anytime a warden comes up to me or police officer you just have to press the ap and it starts video and voice recording everything.. Now video doe snot help in your pocket but the voice sure does. I had a cop give me a ticket for "speeding" but he pulled me over because I flashed my lights (which is now legal) to warn another car about him. When he came up to my window he even said I pulled you over because you were flashing your lights to warn others. I plaid that for the judge and he threw out the speeding ticket.

Exactly or break it... tough luck bet he gets him a good plug now

That would only matter if it can be removed without disassembling the shotgun. Whether or not the plug, in this case a stick of some sort, could be found in the parking lot, as long as it cannot be removed without disassembling the gun and does not allow more than three total shells, it should be good given the way the law is written.

Plus, if it wasn't broken AFTER they hunted and until the warden broke it, doesn't it seem like he was trying to comply rather than break the law?

Nailed it. That game warden is an a-hole just like the rest of them. We had this conversation last week.

I would let a jury decide my fate, not a game warden.

Looks like your friend was trying to do the right thing, but the stick still broke, making the capacity illegal. I'd just pay the ticket, and chalk it up to a lesson learned. The ticket is only around $200.

Typical response from you as always...

What county was this in?

My guess is the GW has a different story...

Funny cuz iv met ALOT of these a-holes.... all which have been nice fellas doing their job. Come off the high horse and stop trying to put out a fire with gas.

The kicker is it broke. No way he could have broken a factory plug or a dowell rod even. Crappy circumstance and flimsy stick for plug.

I just re-read the original post. Did they get checked as they were returning from hunting or before they left the boat ramp?

Depending on which it is:

1) If it was before they hunted, and the GW broke the stick plug, the guy wasn't hunting, so how is that a violation if he hadn't taken a shot yet?

2) If it was after they hunted and everything was legal, then the GW forcibly broke the stick plug, it seems clear that the hunter was legal until the GW made his gun illegal. How is this different from the GW disassembling the gun, removing the plug and writing a ticket? Or my other example, a cop braking your taillight and writing you a ticket for a broken taillight?

Yep I know 2 personally that are good guys. Anytime tickets are wrote someone's an a-hole, I don't care if it's GW or other authorities it's never "I screwed up and deserved that."

What if the taillight was being held on by duct tape?

Seems there have been many of these kind of stories on here lately, and ultimately ends up with 3 sides to the story, his side, their side, and the truth. Hmmmmmm, interesting reading tho.

My example involves a functioning taillight. As far as we know, the "stick plug" functioned properly.

A taillight can function with duct tape holding it in place... might not be stock but hey its working so who needs the right mounts... not like it could just break at any time

I agree with you, but we are talking about a shotgun plug, so let's stay with that. As far as we know, the plug did its job until the GW broke it by forcing his ruler in there, after he had already measured it once and it was found to be legal.

To me, the bottom line is, as far as we know, he had a plug, it measured correctly the first time, it falls within the rules and the GW broke it. It seems to me to be similar to the GW disassembling the gun and removing the plug and then writing a ticket.

Based on what we know, I'm on the hunter's side here. That may change if there is more information provided.

Edit: and I'm not anti-GW. I'm basing my opinion on what information was provided. I doubt we will hear the other side of the story, but I'm not anti-GW.

I'm just glad there's a gw somewhere writing tickets. Was starting the think texas was a free for all state

I have been stopped by by many police officers and wardens. My experience is that wardens are the biggest turds. They seem to get POed when they cannot bust you for something.

I think u need a bigger stick

Question. Did he attempt to put 3 shells in the chamber after it was broken. I'm not sure what type of ruler gw use to measure the chamber(never been checked for a plug) but just because the ruler was able to be inserted, doesn't mean an extra she'll could have. The law is written that the chamber can't hold more than 2 shells. Doesn't say anything about inches.

To specifically answer your questions...questionable yes, legal yes. If I had the time I would try and see/talk to a judge about it first though. Depending on how that conversation went would depend on how hard I would fight. Word of advice to your buddy...don't use the tail light example

Im all ears bud lol and yes it did do its job until it broke but it did break and a stock one wouldn't.

To the OP Did yall happen to call and explain to the county what happened and ask if it would be ok to bring the new plug you bought to replace the one that was broken after the hunt?

Not saying its that easy but very well could be

That's very good advice!

It is funny we run across more and more of these conversations as the years trickle on by. I was once a "Ahaaa, I got you kind of cop". That was long ago before I read and understood the Constitution and all of the amendments. I began to question the direction of law enforcement and where the country is headed overall. Officers are released onto the public with "ZERO" knowledge of the Constitution. I was required to attend two day coverage of the Constitution in the academy. I was sick both days. I was released onto the public with ZERO training on the Constitution. First off two days is rediculous, but no training at all simply blows my freaking mind. Once I studied it, my career changed forever. We are not supposed to "Ahaaaaaa I got you". We should represent ourselves in a professional manner, AT ALL TIMES. Writing citations like that (IF it happened that way) should be shunned. Again if that story is acurate, I would just as soon cut off my own finger than to write a man a citation for that type of chicken $^!^ citation. I would not be able to feel right about myself.

I know there are some good game wardens just like there are good street cops. We as a nation need to pay very close attention to what happens in the very near future. We cannot let go of the original ideas of "WE the people". The police work for you and need to be held accountable for their actions. It is just like the Sheriff's Department at Calhoun County doing nothing with the my case. NOTHING!!! They are lazy filthy examples of law enforcement. They should have no right to wear a badge, much more call themselves Officers.

Im all ears bud lol and yes it did do its job until it broke but it did break and a stock one wouldn't.

To the OP Did yall happen to call and explain to the county what happened and ask if it would be ok to bring the new plug you bought to replace the one that was broken after the hunt?

Not saying its that easy but very well could be
[/quote]

It broke because the GW broke it, is the point.

Good suggestion about trying bring the new plug in. I've never received a ticket, but that seems like it might work, after explaining that you had a plug, which broke.

Happened in Wood County



1) It was after the hunt. He was at the ramp as always.

2) This was my after thought as well. He obviously couldn't force another shell into the gun prior to it being modified by the measurement of the GW. Alternatively, it could have been 'forced,' but, in that case, the restriction wouldn't have been there.


I'm not defending the actions of my buddy or saying the GW was wrong, rather that it just seems pretty obvious he wasn't using more shells than is legal and made an obvious effort to be law abiding. There are always different sides to a story, just thought this one is interesting.

Using common sense thinking, to break a stick within in a tube by pressing on the end would be a very difficult thing to do. The tube and spring would create a stable zone preventing the stick from bending enough to break. It is why the wood dowel in my Auto 5 and the flimsy plastic plug in my Gold 10 do not break. If a stick could shear that easily from pushing on the end by hand, it could have just as easily broken from the recoil of the gun IMO. If the GW checked the gun once and it worked why would he have any reason to do it again. Perhaps he was hearing more than three shots per gun, perhaps he saw the stick being placed in the gun before walking up, perhaps the first try the stick was already broken from normal recoil and he knew something did not feel right. I don't think your "friend" is giving you the whole story here. The game warden was just doing his job unless he used a hammer to force his measuring dowl in the gun.

I'm curious if he got sideways with the warden or something. That is a harsh ticket for someone that appeared to try and obey the law.

Probably didn't get sideways with the guy (just knowing his personality and how he interacts with folks), but who knows?

Sniper John - I understand what you're saying, but the alternative is that he just used a crappy stick not paying attention. They likely didn't hear more than three shots per gun as the guys didn't kill but three teal all morning. This specific GW is ALWAYS at the ramp ensuring that you're following rules. Not that I blame him, rather it's just his MO.

Yep, and being third party, there is no "obvious" about the story given. How young was this person that got the ticket and did they get tickets for any other violations? What is funny is every time someone posts one of these one sided GW stories, the GW that wrote the tickets either reads the post or is pointed to it by another TPWD employee or GW on the forum. Most GWs are hunters and some I am sure frequent the forum. So hope he got his facts straight since you just publicly shared it.

I don't know about the stick being legal or not. I am still trying to figure out why you can only have 3 shells to shoot waterfowl in this steel shot world.

didn't happen to me but the same thing happened to a guy I was hunting with....def a di** move

Well, like I said, I wasn't there and am not pointing fingers; in fact, he wasn't all pissed and throwing stuff at the wall or anything. Just told me what happened and asked my opinion. Thought you guys would have some input.

No other violations. Guys are in college and were with one of their fathers.

On one our local lakes they would park the truck out of visual sight and then head towards the ramp to greet the hunters as they approached the ramp. I was checked several times and never once had an issue. Maybe the GW was having a bad day.

Hmm. I've ran into both of them before and they have always been very polite and very professional.

ok ask yourself (or your friend) why in the He11 didn't you have a plug in the gun in the first place you spend how many THOUSANDS of dollars on this hobby and to get a ticket for not having a $3.00 part to your gun is just plain stupid....

in fact I would guess because the GW couldn't write "stupid" on the ticket he settled for the next best thing.

Gotta say I agree with you. They've always been really professional guys with me.

I work with the Game Warden that is being talked about. I will call him and see what he has to say. Maybe hearing the other side of the story might shed light for both sides.

So it was removed w/o disassembling the gun, thus a violation. OP says he "broke it", GW would probably say it was just easily removed with his ruler.

Yup- lose that one in court 100% of time

Yup

I disagree. The law doesn't define what a plug is, only that it "be plugged" with a "one piece filler" By that definition, a stick is very much so a "plug" as long as it doesn't allow for more then 3 shells

I agree..as its written a plug is anything that keeps a 4th shell from being loaded and can't be removed without dis-assembly....... However, I think its all a moot argument since this is more than likely not the whole story.

I agree with both of your points, BuckRage.

I definitely agree with that! I'm eager to hear what the GW has to say!

I have to say I have never met a game warden that wasn't polite, and courteous.
Most of the time wind up talking to them for a few minutes, after they are through checking to make sure we are within the law.

This year my husband went through all the shotguns before dove season. Making sure they all had plugs in place, and oiling them up. Well at least he thought he did, but missed one of the guns he only uses during duck. Fast forward to teal season. He sure had a shocked look on his face when the game warden checked his gun, and it didn't pass the test. Being the good wife that I am, I had the picture of him getting his first ever ticket from a game warden, posted to his facebook with in seconds. The game warden was still nice, and laughed about us taking the picture.

And also it must be in there so good it requires gun to be disassembled to be removed, his stick plug failed this part of the code.

Last time this crowd bashed game wardens, when the truth came out, all there was around was crickets

Every body posting that the GW is wrong and you haven't even heard the story firsthand. Ya Sig No one wanted to post after the facts of the other story were posted. Hopefully someone will contact the GW who will present the facts.

What was the other story, did I miss something?

Just someone griping about getting a ticket and just gave parts of the story to make themselves look like the big bad GW was picking on them. The GW posted a lot more info about the situation and they guy left out about 95% of the story.

Not saying the original poster's buddy griped about anything on this story.

And thats what our troops are fighting for? A broken twig in a barrel?

One rack of the shotgun or 2?

I'm just glad I never take my plugs out, ever. All I use my shotguns for are migratory birds, so there's never much reason to take the plugs out except for the yearly strip-down cleaning of the mag spring and tube. I've hunted with folks who either forgot their plug or made one that wasn't long enough and used sticks. There's gotta be more to the story...

What kind of shotgun is this anyway? The type of factory plug it uses could have some bearing. Some designs are just not going to work right with a stick plug.

Someone got this answer from TPWD in 2012. Note: "and it doesn't break"


There is no requirement that a shotgun plug be a “factory piece”. The plug must be a one-piece filler and it must be incapable of being removed without disassembling the gun. As long as the pencil is the proper length and it doesn’t break, then it is OK to use a pencil as a shotgun plug.

Scott Vaca
Assistant Chief of Wildlife Enforcement

Texas Parks & Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
Office: 512-389-4626
Fax: 512-389-8400

Texas Game Wardens serving Texans since 1895-Law Enforcement off the Pavement

Interesting. I don't know what the ruler used looks like or how easy it would be for a dowel or stick to break, or how hard one would need to work to break one. Thanks for posting that, though.

Wouldn't mind hearing the other side but I really don't think he needs to say a word, except in court. My family has a property in Wood County and I have dealt with both Wood County Wardens several times and they have always been professional. Derek even wrote me the second most expensive ticket in my life and I still consider him a friend.

Sounds like the "plug" was rendered non-working without taking the gun apart. Prick move? Yeah...kinda like getting a speeding ticket for going 1mph over.

Thats why i plug my tailpipes

I got a used shotgun on the forum last year and when I took it down to clean it the plug was a stick with blood and dove feathers stuck to it.

A buddy once taped two shotgun shells together and wrote "PLUG" on them.
The warden checked his gun and laughed. Then picked up a corn stalk and whittled out a plug and handed it to him. No fine, but a good laugh.
That was the only time I have ever seen a warden be polite.

Is anyone else surprised that this GW checked the same plug twice? Out of the 30+ times ive been checked, I cannot remember one instance where the GW checked my plug and then went back and checked it again. And im just speculating but if he checked it once and found no issue, why would he bother to check it again... just sounds to me like your "friend" tried to pull a fast one and got caught, followed by a horrible explanation of his innocence and how he was done wrong.

Just based on what I know from what you told, its a chickenshit fine for as chickenshit plug. Who fired the first chickenshit? They loose. Buddy should pay the fine then go get a non chickenshit plug.

Just ditch your unplugged friend.

Plugs are a silly anyways. Just get several shotguns and line them right next to you.
Shoot three shots, pick up the next gun, shoot three shots, etc. See, legally plugged shotguns and unlimited shot capability. As far as I know there is no limit on how many shotguns you can have.
And you still have a limit on how many birds you can shoot, regardless how many shots you can fire.
It is a speed trap for wardens, kind of like the stupid log for whitetail on the back of your license.

I have an EXTRA Long plug in my shotgun. You can't even load 1 round into the tube.

Now the 10 shot mags that are in my back pocket, . . . that is a different story.

I once read that Ted Nugent hunts waterfowl that way. ???

I have made many plugs for friends hunting with me in the past.. I have since bought a couple plugs and just keep them in my blind bag.. Easier to be safe than sorry..

This would play out REAL QUICK in front of the JP:

Buddy: " ... Judge, the GW BROKE my stick plug . . . "

GW: " ...YES Judge, I ' removed without disassembling the gun'.... "

Judge: " ... hmmm, law says nothing 'bout 'breaking sticks' but does say 'that cannot be removed without disassembling the gun';
GW did not 'disassemble gun ', therefore (hammer bang) Guilty as charged! - I find in favor of Prosecution; FINE STANDS - PLUS COURTS COSTS... !!! "

I have heard both sides of the story now. I believe the GW did nothing wrong and did not "intentionally" break the guys so called plug.

That's what I was thinking. Sounds like every other story where "The Pigs" give someone a "Bull****" fine, when they didnt even do anything! Only going 15 mph over the speed limit? "Dumb pigs gave me a ticket for no reason!"

Nothing irks me more then people who don't respect law enforcement. I believe that is a trait of people who can't accept responsibility for their own actions, a very childish trait

You gunna share?

I'm interested, too.

Just like the other threads...crickets

How much is a plug, like five bucks?

To be fair, Hogman, no one even knows what the GW said. I've never said the GW was wrong; I debated what we knew from the OP. We still don't know anything about the GW's side of the story, only that someone spoke with him and the plug was not intentionally broken, but no details on what that means.

Yeah but when you are in the field hunting w/o a plug, and GW is comming, kinda hard to buy a plug so you grab a stick to jam in there before GW gets there.

Haha kinda what I was thinking.

As far as I can interpret, this did not "shed light" for either side...obviously, with the original disclosure you made taken in to consideration, it probably is not advisable for you to share your subsequently acquired knowledge of the situation...but c'mon.

The gun was checked once. The so called "plug" was indeed a stick that was so worn down from the elements that it basically was just bark. As far as the other details of this incident I probably should not share. Hope this helps guys. All of the provided information is of course, public knowledge.