Hog Doggers really pissing me off......!

I see 'hog dogs' on my cameras about once a month, sometimes more. Yeah, I know all about Hog Doggin' and know that sometimes dogs will stray farther than anticipated, but last nights event...really turned into something that I'm just fed up with.

I've been working really hard to get a particular Boar to either go into my pen trap, or show up at one of the bait sites where I could just shoot him. Very unpredictable hog, no set pattern. Just spent 7 hours on stand two nights ago (one of many attempts) and he was a no-show.

Have tons of video of him at one bait site and lots of video of him 'stalling' at the trap door. Finally last night about 9:00 p.m. he went into the pen trap, tripped the door and was caught. After his initial crash into the panels he was going around the trap looking for any place to get out...like they normally do. Video captures it every one minute.

About 1:30 a.m. he starts running back and forth the entire length of the trap, pulls at the door then makes two attempts to climb the 5' panels. Makes it out the second attempt. At 1:35 a.m. two hog dogs (a cur and some blue and white looking hound) appear on the camera, circle the trap and then take off.

I didn't know any of that until I got back to the house with the Game Cam card this morning. When I went to go check the cameras and put out corn, I saw the trap doors closed but no hog inside. Ground is all rooted up and I can see dirt on the panel and hair on the top where it climbed out. Knew right away it had to be the boar I was after. So I'm putting a new card in the camera when the two dogs come walking up to me. Tracking collars on, and name tag collars.

I caught one of them, removed both collars and went back to the house to call the owner. Thought I'd look at the video first. Apparently, the Boar had settled down and was just milling around until he heard the dogs (or dogs and people). I believe that is what caused him to try harder to escape.

Anyway, I'm still sitting at my computer going through the last of the videos when a truck drives up in my front yard. Two guys get out, one has a receiver in hand. I go out the door and ask the first one "are you Bl___e", he says no, asked the other one, same thing...no. They had homed in on the collar I had in truck.

I told them where I found the dogs this morning (dogs belong to one of their Son's as it turns out) and where to go look for them. They said they were running the dogs about a mile from here last night. I asked them what time, they looked at each other and said about 1:00 a.m.

Told them they needed to take measures to be sure the dogs didn't go onto other peoples property. They just said "that's kinda hard to do". I told them what happened with the boar and that other dogs (not theirs) also come through the property and ruin my efforts to trap, shoot and snare hogs. They seemed to not care in the least, just wanted to know if the dogs were "O.K."

I told them if they haven't gotten into any of the snares I have out, they should still be back there and be fine, go and get them and keep them off the property in the future.

No apologies, no other comments, just got in their vehicle and left. I don't blame the dogs, they are just doing what dogs do. The Hog Doggers on the other hand know damn good and well the dogs are ranging off of the property they have permission to hunt.

Yeah, I know these two Bubbas don't represent ALL Hog Doggers, but for the Dogger's reading this...you'd be well advised to start policing your own. Too many people out there just going where ever the hell they want to, some with dogs that couldn't catch a pig if it was tied to their neck.

I hope Hog Doggers in other places are not like the ones I know here in Deep East Texas.

Really tired of this crap!

SSS.

Courtesy and respect seem to be out the window these days. Maybe a call to the local GW might help them be more mindful on property lines and respect.

No, I wouldn't shoot collared dogs or any dog that I thought wasn't feral/wild (if not attacking livestock).

I don't fault the dogs. They are just doing what dogs do.

Or maybe you were referring to the hunters? Can't do that either.

Sooner or later someones dog is going to end up in one of my snares. I set snares such that other animals (deer especially) are not likely to get into one, but a dog could easily follow a hog trail and be caught in the same fence crossing site.

Hate for that to happen, but Doggers run that risk.

I feel for you

You had a talk w them
Now talk to the sheriff
Stop drama from becoming chaos

I would have told them that you saw the dogs being chased by a couple coyotes last night but all you found this morning was a collar.

Depending upon the locale, I am not sure Courtesy and Respect EVER existed.

Game Warden would not be able to do much in this case, since no 'trespass' occurred (that I can prove).

I can't show that the hunters were on the property, just the dogs.

Dogs entering a property (in Texas) is not trespass and no other 'criminal' offense is applicable that I am aware of (that relates solely to the presence of the animal).

A Landowner/Agents only recourse is to run the animals off or capture them and call the owner or animal control (if in the city). IF the dogs have not attacked, are attacking or about to attack, livestock, people, pets, etc...then you can't shoot them (legally), which is your only other solution.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.822.htm


And that isn't my intent anyway. I would never 'punish' a thoughtless human by killing or harming an innocent dog.

Hunting hogs with dogs has it's place. I have participated in such hunts more than once in the past.

But in areas where farms/ranches tend to be small (under a section/640 acres many times), hog doggers risk having their dogs stray onto neighboring property. They are constantly looking for new places to run their dogs...because around here...they wear out their welcome pretty quickly.

That and there seems to be a disdain for anyone using different methods to kill hogs I.E. (Trapping, shooting, snaring). You would think we were killing THEIR hogs!

Apparently, they WANT as many hogs around as possible...so they can continue their 'sport'. On my property and my FIL's property...we are committed to killing as many hogs as we can. It isn't SPORT for us. Hogs do terrible damage to the pastures.

I see no reason why all who pursue Feral Hogs can't get along, IF each person acts responsibly.

If you ever need to build new fence maybe net wire would be a wise choice.

I always thought dogs crossing the fence still constituted trespassing

No, it doesn't...and shouldn't.

Dogs are not aware of property lines and can not be held accountable...as their human owners can.

The mere presence of a dog on your property is not a criminal offense (with few exceptions).

I also understand, that even really GOOD dogs and RESPONSIBLE hog hunters can have something go wrong. I wouldn't be bent out of shape about that.

But we get pics of hog dogs (sometimes the same ones) at least twice a month on both properties. It is the habitual lack of control (intentional or not) that has finally pushed me over the edge.

Also, (every experience so far)...the total dismissal of accountability by the dog owners. You would think it was their 'right' to follow their dogs where ever they go and to retrieve the animals without asking permission.

Most know full well...that the dogs are going to cross property lines and make no attempt to call them back (or can't). That is why they start their hunts at midnight or later, knowing that people are either asleep or will not be willing to go out and investigate.

ONLY if the dogs run so far that they can't track them with GPS or just give up the chase and come back the next day, does anyone know about it.

This is becoming common practice in my part of Deep East Texas and I suspect other places as well.

you ever heard of leash law ?

you should do something about it,
defending dogs crossing property lines are ok equates to wasting time

Flintknapper,

Couple of years back I posted that East Texas is a different planet when it comes to hogs and privileges, that people feel born with and continue to practice. You might as well go to Africa and tell the natives to quit drinking cow's blood. Dogs crossing property lines can pose many problems but in East Texas it is a different phenom. Much worse than the Civil War, Cattle rancher and open range, whalers and Green Peace, HF vs LF.

Hope you manage to find an answer. Maybe your own pack of bigger, meaner, hungrier dogs? Might tie that GPS collar on the bottom of a UPS van, at least keep them busy for a day...

Yes, I am literate and have heard of such. No leash laws in my county.



A leash law (as applied to hunting circumstances) where dogs are expected to pursue their quarry doesn't make a lot of sense now...does it. Have you ever heard of 'practical'?

The answer (of course) is simply for dog owners to make every effort to control their animals and to have proper respect and consideration for others...when things don't work out as planned.

No need for more laws...if folks will just do the proper thing. I am not defending dogs crossing property lines or suggesting it is "OK", I am simply stating...I can see where it might happen innocently enough and that I don't fault the dog.

Flintnapper is nicer than I am, and his approach isn't going to solve his problem. My approach, however, might make the problem worse. So, other than running my mouth, I don't know what the answer is. But I have questions:

- If, for the sake of discussion only, a dog AND his GPS locator were "deactivated", would the last known position of the GPS locator be shown on the dog owner's locator unit - your back yard, for instance?

Hmmm, where I hunt there are quite a few signs posted along the county roads to the effect of:

Dogs running loose
$500 Fine

I never looked at them too closely but I assume it's a county ordinance. If I consistently had your troubles (I have had that experience on occasion) I'd sure figure out how to turn in the offending dogs so that the owners paid the fine.

Yes, on the better tracking receivers...you can actually see the exact trail a dog took their entire time out. Miles of criss-cross trails normally.

Sometimes dogs will 'strike' quickly and the path is fairly straight if the hogs bay up in a short distance. But yes, that is exactly how they found my house...the collars were in the floorboard of my truck. I was just finishing up looking at the game cam videos and getting ready to call the number on the collar.

They were driving the Farm to Market Rd. I live on looking for the dogs or a signal. Some of the transmitters are good for 10-12 miles (line of sight). In this terrain...probably 2-3 miles.

First off the hunters are responsible for the dogs if they cross onto your property again you can catch and hold the dogs for the game warden he will file on them for treaspassing.

Two years ago I had a couple of run in with hog dogs one time they chased off a buck from my feeder, the second time they surrounded me while hunting. That was the straw that broke the camels back. I went to a friend that hunts with dogs told him to spread the word, from now on any dog on my property will be shot. Any tracking collars will be removed and held by me, any trespassing poacher that comes for the collar will be prosecuted.

Funny now almost three years later and I have yet to see or shoot a dog.
There are a lot of nice respectful hog doggers, but man there seem to be a high percentage of disrespectful ones.

The owner of the dogs (possibly the persons hunting the dogs also) are indeed responsible for any illegal actions of the dogs (harming livestock, etc..). But I'm pretty sure you can not claim 'trespassing' on the animal.

There is some argument (yet unresolved) about the legality of shooting a dog that is running or has caught a hog..for the following reason: In recent years Feral Hogs have been classified as 'Exotic Livestock' (free ranging).

It is the States way of avoiding ownership. Thus... any Feral Hog on a particular property...is essentially 'owned' by the land owner. This literally changes as soon a property line is crossed. The same hog that was MINE 30 seconds ago (even though I might not want it),now belongs to my neighbor by virtue of having crossed the fence.

Anyway, it is defense to prosecution to shoot a dog attacking livestock, but that doesn't mean you would prevail in a civil suit.



There are Hunter Harassment laws you could pursue IF you could prove the dogs were being sent in for the express purpose of ruining your hunt (but that would be a stretch), other than that... I don't think you'd have any 'legal' recourse. Shooting the dogs (except under certain circumstances) is actually an offense and IMO punishes the dog for the transgressions of the owner. I am sympathetic to your situation..since it is mine as well...and I can offer no ready or reasonable solution.



Sounds as if the word got out. What a shame you were forced to threaten the death of their dogs in order to get compliance. I am going to try a less punitive manner of persuasion, but might try your method if it doesn't work.



Yes Sir!

Seems to be a cultural thing going on. I'm not into it...

I've had hog dogs on my place in daylight just one time. They chased down and caught a hog in sight of my front porch, about 80 yards out. One had an ear and one had hold of the tail or leg. I grabbed the 223 and while the wife was screaming "don't hurt the dogs" into my left ear, I shot the hog from between the dogs. He dropped and the dogs gave me a disgusted look and walked off. They were wearing red kerchiefs around their necks and GPS trackers. I couldn't make myself shoot them.

But, if they were here more often, I'd have to take sterner measures.

Yeah, my wife would have taken food and water out to them.

For starters, I would have dis-abled the tracking collar(s). No way would they be getting those back.
We had our share as well, except we caught them. Not the dogs, but the "Doggers"!! One guy ended up going to jail and his dog impounded at the vet when it bit my brother on his arm. Kept the dog at the vet for 21 days since he couldn't show proof of rabies shot, had to pay my brother's doctor bill, and with fines and court cost, that cost that guy a pretty penny.
If you hit them in the pocket book, the less trouble you will have.

There's not really a whole lot you can do. You can't ethically shoot a dog for being a dog. Most owners, though, will back off if you sternly tell them that you have traps and the dogs might get hurt, and you can't guarantee the safety of the dog. Most, not all. But if they continue to be jerks, the most you could really do is get their names and addresses and get a lawyer to send a threatening letter. I would pull the collars each time I had the opportunity, though.

There's your problem.

Tell them you have been having a yote problem and the government trapper has M-44's set around the property.

We had the dog wars... Land lived on was at one time for cattle... The land across the road was broken up inta tracks & sold.. A neighbor bought dogs & let them run chasing cattle... Words were spoken, dog shot, then payback, & person just bought more dogs... We kept ours on leash... We had been adopting stray dogs as pets ever since kids were little... Last stray got loose & found her at end of driveway shot...
Have posted bout the dogs keeping the hogs away, tough patterning them... Been in stand, dogs walk threw, pet em at the mail box, usualy give a yell an they run home... They also change deer patterns also... Don't have ta mess with it no more... do know what ya going threw... Best wishes... We've always adopted the stray dogs...

I don't ever see an occasion where the dogs should be shot (unless they were aggressive toward you or livestock). They are just doing what they have been trained to do. I understand the frustration, but all the responsibility lies with the dogs owner.

Catch the dogs and take them to animal control. IF the owner shows up, tell them where to find their dogs.

If you have any kind of livestock or fowl, the entire thing shifts into your court.

Everyplace I hunt, including family property has cows. I have been instructed by every landowner since I was 18 to shoot any dog, collar or not. I let one go once, and explained to the land owner that the dog seemed harmless, he was furious, he explained that the dog had been seen chasing cattle. I have always been a bit concerned about legal issues if I shoot someones dog.

Yes, I agree. Easy for me because I am a dog lover. My anger is not directed at the Hog Dogs, its the 'Hog Doggers' and a culmination of bad experiences.

And while I agree there are probably responsible Hog Doggers out there, I have yet to meet one. Could just be my bad luck...or it might speak to the attitudes of many who run dogs, I don't know. WAY tired of it...though.

Couldn't animal control pick up the dogs, take them to the pound and then charge the owners X amount to release them back to the owners.. Especially if the dogs didn't have proper collars and tags on when they arrived to pick up the strays.....

Also, other land owners may not be as kind as you and actually apply the SSS method.

Maybe you could SSS their tracking collars lol. Just try into figure out to stick a thorn in the dog owners side without messing with the dogs.

Sorry about your situation, some of my dads neighbors would rather buy 4 wheelers and other toys then a fence to contain their dogs. My dad hunts and sees them on his game cameras too often. He has approached these neighbors multiple times, and they finally recently put up a fence.

But the amount of deer and wildlife in the neighborhood was noticeably less this past deer season with 6 dogs running around a 750 acre neighborhood whose favorite thing to do was chase wildlife all day. The neighborhood has about 10 landowners that live there full time.

There are plenty, trust me. Dogs are just another tool in a serious pig hunters arsenal. Rule #1, don't run dogs on a small property. Rule #2, if hunting a larger property don't turn the dogs loose if you're near a neighbor's property. It's that simple. If near a neighbor's property you use a rifle. There are some neighbors that are OK with the occasional trespass as long as you kill that pig and get out as quietly and quickly as possible. A true pig dog is only after pigs, and will die to catch him and hold him for you. They will not bother/chase your deer or exotics. I respect a good pig dog more than I do most people.

Well said.

Place these on your gates and fences. Then follow thru with setting some to do your own "predator" control.

Agreed. A GOOD dog will not go off 'trashin' and his/her drive to catch/bay a pig is the very reason they end up where ever the pig takes them.

Some (if not most hog doggers), will assert that any dog worth having can not be called off, or called back. So the logical outcome...is dogs on other peoples property IF the hunter violates Rule #1 & #2.




True, but they don't have to "chase" them to have a negative effect. Both Deer and Hogs that HAVE been chased before will vacate the area when they hear dogs nearby.

The Deer come back quickly, but the hogs normally do not. I put a lot of effort into trapping hogs, which can involve baiting them for a week or more before setting the trap door. Only, to have dogs come through and blow them out.

We are interested in catching and killing as many as we can...in order to reduce the population. We are NOT interested in just swapping hogs with our neighbors or temporarily running the hogs off.

The exception to that...is when we get a lone Boar that we just can't trap or pattern to snare or shoot. Or if the area is too thick to get access to him. Then...we call someone with dogs, but it is a rare thing. Dogs can be a useful tool, I've said that from the start.



I have respected the pig dogs more than the people running them in every case so far!

(Those we have called to help, the exception).

pin a note on their Collar stating that next time they enter Your Property, they will not be seen again

This is a false statement, this is what the dog hunters want you to believe, its like the sign on the back of dump trucks saying not responsible for broken windshields.

The trucks are responsible for every little piece of material that falls out and damage it causes, and the dog hunters are responsible for every thing their dogs do.

The way I see it a dog chasing hog across my property is no different to finding someone sitting in my deer stand opening day or any day for that matter. Texas state law agrees with me.

TLM, I think providing the particular Texas code that applies here would be very enlightening. Maybe an explanation of what it is that can be done and how would be great. Obviously, this is a problem that is recurring for many individuals who could use the help.

I know I hear about this issue more and more these days. In a lot of places there are failure to control laws, but I'm thinking that prolly isn't so much a thing in rural counties.

It would be nice to know from a LEO standpoint what can be done and how...and if there are state laws since counties vary so much.

I was born and raised in east TX. My own kith and kin are hoggers from generations back. There are dang few hoggers that give two chits about where their dogs go - or where they go for that matter. Their motto is "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." 95% of the time the LOs never know.

That's just the reality of it.

I got a about a 12 year old boy and his dogs all over my place , got pics on trail cams him coming and going . He carries a toy riffle. got posted signs out . My worry is my tree stands are ok if you are careful , the really bad stands I have knocked the ladders down . I guess I need to knock all my ladders down to keep him out of the stands.

My thoughts are in line with TxLawman. Fault does rest with the hog doggers. And though it isn't the dogs' fault, they are still the problem that's in your face. I think that the decision that a person will have to eventually make is to shoot the dogs or not shoot the dogs. Some folks would like to dance around that issue rather than face it. It's your choice. Luckily, i don't have the problem, but if I did have the recurring problem, I know what I'd do.

That may be true in East Texas, that doesn't mean it's that way in the rest of the state. Believe it or not, not all pig doggers are A-holes guys. Let's just say I know a few, and 8 out of 10 of them do their best to stay off of properties they don't have permission to be on.

I was born and raised in east TX. My own kith and kin are hoggers from generations back. There are dang few hoggers that give two chits about where their dogs go - or where they go for that matter. Their motto is "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." 95% of the time the LOs never know.

That's just the reality of it. [/quote]

That may be true in East Texas, that doesn't mean it's that way in the rest of the state. Believe it or not, not all pig doggers are A-holes guys. Let's just say I know a few, and 8 out of 10 of them do their best to stay off of properties they don't have permission to be on. [/quote]

Aren't the two of you confirming what many people believe? That guys who run dogs will trespass to retrieve their dogs/hogs with or without land owner permission and by doing so, blatantly disregard the land owner's rights. If that's the case, I wonder how these same guys would feel about people hunting their land or leases without permission?

How are you blatantly disregarding LO's rights if you had permission to occasionally cross a property line to recover a dog? There is a difference between recovering your dog and getting out vs hunting someone's property. Have you never crossed a property line to recover a wounded animal? By doing so does that mean you are hunting the property? I mentioned earlier the best ways to avoid a trespass all together. How they do things in the cross eyed woods of East Texas is not how all pig doggers operate. If you run dogs long enough sooner or later one is going to cross a property line though. If you hunt with a gun or bow long enough sooner or later you are going to have to cross a fence to recover an animal. Now, HUNTING on someone's property and blatantly ignoring property lines is obviously a no no. It sounds like it happens in E Texas more than anywhere else in the State.

Legally, yes, that is considered hunting according to the Game Warden at the hunter safety class I took. That falls under the definition of hunt - To capture, trap, take, or kill, and includes any attempt to capture, trap, take, or kill. https://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/outdoor-annual/hunting/general-regulations/definitions

Perhaps technically, yes. Hard for me to consider it hunting though when you leave your gun at the fence. I consider that as recovering. Every land owner I've ever called or talked to didn't have a problem with it and didn't consider us as hunting their property. Now if you made a habit of it, yes I would consider that a problem.

You said 8-10 hog doggers do their best to stay off property they don't have permission to hunt. You also said if you hunt dogs long enough you'll cross property lines. That tells me they will cross property lines if needed, but try to avoid doing so. If they have LO permission then it's all is good, but without LO permission it's still trespassing. If someone's hog dog crosses my fence in pursuit of a pig then your hunting my property. Again, if you have permission all is good, but without my permission you're blatantly disregarding my LO rights.

I've never crossed property lines to recover an animal, but a lease member had his buck run onto an adjoining property after being shot this past season. We stopped the recovery efforts at the fence line and made contact with the land owner to ask his permission to recover the deer. Permission was given and we recovered the deer the following morning.m that's how it should work, or call the Game Warden to determine if anything can be done to recover an animal that's crossed property lines.

Lol, it is that technical aspect that is the law.

Maybe, but shooting the dog's owners is a little tougher one to explain in court . . .

So, I'll have to ask forgiveness for shooting your dogs? Guess that's just the reality of it.


Previously, farmers asked us to shoot the dogs also due to chasing the livestock. Luckily, the dogs avoided us like the plague. Wasn't very keen on the idea anyway.

Whether it constitutes hunting or not, you still have to have the property owners permission to retrieve the animal.

It's not as much a matter "hunting" as one of "trespassing"........

Tis one thing i dont miss, the Dog wars... Road lived on people usedta drive out an let dogs loose, as stated we fed & chained up strays, they did get loose once in awhile... Dogs love ta run, so can see point of view of hog doggers... First got ta went with others on coon hunts... Not ta tear or mess with people stuff just ta hunt run dogs.. From what hear used ta use dogs for hunting deer... Were i grew up we had drivers an spotters, moved slowly & learned hunting lanes, No hunting accidents... Wife?s Dad uncles & her pa or papa all had coon dogs & beagles.. They even gave permission for others ta come out an hunt, even hog-dogers... Age of High-tech, got caught up in it meself, but tis more the Kentucky .45 & archery type... Old school hunter, no dogs, not scared ta go threw the thick stuff, usualy have a gun with me... Land owners complain bout hogs damaging, yet put down hunters... so tis why, Twas Blessed when WMA opened up down the road... Freedom ta hunt put some food on the Proud supporter of WMA... as pappy once said: WMA The final fronter were even low income can aford ta hunt ... i got cheap posts...

Colt, you never fail to crack me up.

Have the same effect on mirrors... As pappy once said: Tis not the purdest turd ta float down the creek ... Had ta go back in ta Edit... sitting in dark area not much light, be typing & look up an it started typing in different senctance plus me spelling tis not best realy did get D- in grammer... doing the best i can...
30 years ago used ta be big with dog hunting, coondogs, beagals for rabbits, never used dogs for hogs, & have been in some thick stuff, even after wounded hogs, day & at night back in me caveman days... Nick name had in school was pup, pupster, puppy, over the years i grew inta a mutt, reason gotta sneak up on them thar mirrors...

Sort of like speeding away from a bank robbery? It isn't so much a bank robbery anymore than it is speeding.

between getting charged for making a withdrawl, getting shot at, chased, & a speeding ticket... i'd pud in a plea for the lesser charge...

No, no, no, no, no....you legally shoot an animal on your property and it crosses over to another persons property you are trespassing if you retrieve it without permission.....shooting on another's property is poaching and trespassing. Doggers entering a property to "retrieve" their dogs are trespassing....

It's good to know your neighbors, have their # on your phone. A phone call or text after the hunt often goes a long way. It means a lot to some if you let them know that you stretched that fence going after your dog. Some neighbors will hate you, period. Some neighbors will get exited and want to go with you next time or say hell take my boys! Some will be OK with it and be grateful that you took another boar out, but they don't want any part of it. Know where you stand with your neighbors and adjust accordingly.

I shoot feral dogs. These are dogs that constantly get dumped down the road and they form packs. They then breed in the wild. They are almost always aggressive towards wildlife and people. They are often a problem, and are treated as such. For those of you on here that say you would shoot a trained, suited up pig dog with a GPS collar that screwed up and crossed a fence chasing a pig...all I have to say is good luck with that.

^^^^^^^ Correct. And one last thing that folks seem confused about: Dogs can not 'trespass' (per the law), nor does their presence on a property constitute trespass by the owner/handler. There are other laws that apply (depending upon circumstance) and the landowner/agent MIGHT have some type of legal recourse, but that 'recourse' is becoming increasingly vague with respect to the sport of hunting hogs with dogs.

In recent years...Feral Hogs have been re-defined as Exotic Livestock. So until we have Case Law established that comes down on the side of the landowner (dogs attacking, about to attack or have recently attacked) the landowners 'livestock'... then I think that shooting Hog Dogs on sight would be ill advised from a legal stand point.

Feral Hogs now belong to the landowner of the property on which they are. Technically, they are the landowners 'Exotic Livestock' per definition. So...conceivably, one could legally shoot a domestic dog under current law IF you could prove the need. This would avoid an Animal Cruelty charge by the dog owner.

So who wants to be the test case?

Again, I understand the inconvenience the dogs can create. That is part of what prompted my post, but if we are to be intellectually honest, then we must recognize...our argument is with the dog OWNER/handler, NOT with the animal itself.

So I am asking folks to please not shoot collared dogs or dogs that are clearly domestic (not feral). Make every attempt to find the owner and express your anger with THEM.

flintknapper:

With the next opportunity, capture the dog(s), remove all collars including GPS. Keep all collars with you for this next part. Promptly take the dog to animal control, game warden, etc (somewhere legal). No mention of collars, just turning in a stray causing a problem at your place. At this point the GPS collar will have "disappeared" from the hunter's point of view... he'll continue to drive around hoping for a signal. After passing the dog off return home and place the GPS in some random place on your property. Supposing the hunter is still in the area they can now hone in your place. Wait discretely watching for somebody to come knocking. If somebody comes but doesn't knock call the law for trespassing. If you desire, engage them while waiting for the law. Tell them you turned in a stray or don't but if you do you know nothing about any collars in that conversation.

When hog doggers trespass and they're armed, does this fact up the criminal charges that can be applied by LEOs?

I appreciate the thought...but you are suggesting I be Deceitful/Dishonest in my dealings and I will not do that.

IF I can catch any dogs (as with this last situation), you may be sure... I will contact the owner and issue a stern warning. But I don't want to do anything punitive to the Dog(s).

IF the warning goes unheeded, I will do my best to 'put the word out'. We live in a small community and bad news or unsavory acts....get around fast. IF it is appropriate to get Law Enforcement involved...then that's an option too.

But I want to be careful to separate those who habitually cross property lines from those who simply had their dogs stray one night.

Worst offenders at present...are two light colored 'Pits' (collared but not tracking collars) that come through at least twice a month. I've posted game cam pics of these two at our local Post Office, stating "If these are your dogs, keep them on YOUR property". We'll see if that does any good. I suspect they belong to someone nearby, but not to any of my close neighbors.

Yes

in the Texas Penal Code sec 30

Obviously this is a heated topic on both sides.
I feel for the hog doggers that do it right and respect others property. A couple of my cousins love to run dogs its getting harder to find places with the bad seeds pissing off everyone.

I have brought this topic up with multiple game wardens and Texas peace officers over the last week to get a good answer for the landowners who are being violated. Here is the basics and your options do not listen to these people who tell you you have no options the people trespassing want you to believe that is true.

1) The dogs can not trespass.

2) If you fear for your livestock, property, personal injury, and you shoot a dog you are covered. Example: This can be as simple as "I am afraid of dogs was attacked as a child." Its all how you word it. Of course the dogs need to be on your property not on the county road or the neighbors.

3) If you find dogs on your property and can catch them call the game warden to retrieve them.

4) If you catch dogs and the owners come onto your property without permission to retrieve them it is criminal trespass.

5) If you catch the hunters on your property while hunting with the dogs (retrieving a hog ect.) its Nongame: hunt without landowner consent (felony) Texas Parks & Wildlife Code 61.022

Every single game warden I spoke with said this was the biggest complaint they were getting lately and a big headache for the landowners and officers. Do not be surprised to see new legislation coming down the pipes giving landowners and officers more tools to deal with these disrespectful poachers.

As a side note for landowner protection. Note the agricultural land definition is suitable for not used for.


CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE

TITLE 4. LIABILITY IN TORT

CHAPTER 75. LIMITATION OF LANDOWNERS' LIABILITY

Sec. 75.001. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Agricultural land" means land that is located in this state and that is suitable for:
(A) use in production of plants and fruits grown for human or animal consumption, or plants grown for the production of fibers, floriculture, viticulture, horticulture, or planting seed;
(B) forestry and the growing of trees for the purpose of rendering those trees into lumber, fiber, or other items used for industrial, commercial, or personal consumption; or
(C) domestic or native farm or ranch animals kept for use or profit.
(2) "Premises" includes land, roads, water, watercourse, private ways, and buildings, structures, machinery, and equipment attached to or located on the land, road, water, watercourse, or private way.
(3) "Recreation" means an activity such as:
(A) hunting;
(B) fishing;
(C) swimming;
(D) boating;
(E) camping;
(F) picnicking;
(G) hiking;
(H) pleasure driving, including off-road motorcycling and off-road automobile driving and the use of all-terrain vehicles and recreational off-highway vehicles;
(I) nature study, including bird-watching;
(J) cave exploration;
(K) waterskiing and other water sports;
(L) any other activity associated with enjoying nature or the outdoors;
(M) bicycling and mountain biking;
(N) disc golf;
(O) on-leash and off-leash walking of dogs; or
(P) radio control flying and related activities.
(4) "Governmental unit" has the meaning assigned by Section 101.001.

LIABILITY LIMITED. (a) An owner, lessee, or occupant of agricultural land:
(1) does not owe a duty of care to a trespasser on the land; and
(2) is not liable for any injury to a trespasser on the land.

Definition of Agricultural land[/b]
(1) "Agricultural land" means land that is located in this state and that is [b]suitable for:
(A) use in production of plants and fruits grown for human or animal consumption, or plants grown for the production of fibers, floriculture, viticulture, horticulture, or planting seed;
(B) forestry and the growing of trees for the purpose of rendering those trees into lumber, fiber, or other items used for industrial, commercial, or personal consumption; or
(C) domestic or native farm or ranch animals kept for use or profit.
(2) "Premises" includes land, roads, water, watercourse, private ways, and buildings, structures, machinery, and equipment attached to or located on the land, road, water, watercourse, or private way.

It is not a dog problem, it is a people problem.

5) If you catch the hunters on your property while hunting with the dogs (retrieving a hog ect.) its Nongame: hunt without landowner consent (felony) Texas Parks & Wildlife Code 61.022

This is my concern. If dogs have a pig bayed up on property the dog's owners doesn't have permission to hunt, do the they retrieve the dogs and leave, or do they take the pig as well. I suspect there are many dog owners will take the pig as well.

I feel your pain buddy. I had to quit trapping coyotes on my property simply because I was catching too many " pets ". The kind that lay about the yard all day and pack up at night and roam all over. I always let them go if I could, but a couple tried to bite me, and...........

Had my share of hog dogs running around too, cameras stolen , probably because the owner's picture was on it. A couple times when cameras were stolen, I had hog dog pics on other cameras the same day. I don't know what the answer is, but something needs to be changed.

I put old cameras in view and new cameras are hidden.

You need to call the game warden and put pressure on him. He will do his job.

Remember the old saying. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

If you're in East Texas, no one is going to give a chit about any property lines.

Do ya'll have the same issue with folks running yotes? I know up north they run them with dogs(on GPS collars) and wait until after deer season (the one I know well). It doesn't seem like it has been an issue from what I hear.

Was curious as I don't hear of folks running them with dogs down here. I know where I hunt the terrain and I suspect the flora (CACTUS>>>) are hard on the dogs here. Thoughts?

I'm definitely in Deep East Texas.

Have had this problem (hog doggers) and squirrel hunters (trespassing) for the 30 years I've been here.

Once Deer Season starts...things get a little better.

Perhaps there is a 'cultural' aspect to it?

Private property is private property. I know people who kill hogs especially doggers to some extent believe they are doing the world a favor, but not on my property they aren't. They do not have permission to be there or hunt there. Their dogs do not have permission either.

now I don't advise that people should just kill everything they see. I believe in being reasonable and giving notice where possible to allow people to correct.

beyond that though, dogs that are not marked, do not have collars, nobody to contact or give notice too will be shot on my property. I too like dogs and do not like to see it come to this end. But most people do not hunt in the city....there is not a dog catcher, there is not animal control or city service. you can call the sheriff and he might eventually come out there. But I'm not going to go thru a lot of effort or any expense to control anyone else's loose dogs. livestock is a different matter. cats n dogs I have little patience for. its just a rural fact of life.

I have hunted hog dog before. I don't have a problem with it. its fun. But any hunter needs to stay within the bounds of the property he has permission to hunt. If someone lost a dog and contacted me and wanted permission to retrieve I'd be reasonable to that. If it became an uncontrollable problem then things would change.

I would have to agree and if my own dog was on someone's property, up to no good, I would not blame them to do whatever they felt was right and I love my dog.
Collar or no collar, they cause me any type of trouble and it's bad news and the owner of the dog, does not have anyone to blame but themselves.

Yes, I'm sure it's cultural. I wonder what kind of infection would culture in their arse full of bird shot?

Blasted Hog Doggers at it again.

Been watching a group of hogs at one of my bait stations for about a week now, waiting for them to start coming in at an earlier time (before midnight). They gradually got to where they were showing up at about 10 p.m. AND a couple of medium sized boars had joined the group.

So, this last Sunday night I went to go sit on stand and wait. Conditions were pretty much perfect, cool North breeze blowing directly from the bait site to me. Half moon up overhead. No pressure on that stand for about a month.

Stayed on stand until 12:30 a.m., nothing but raccoons and deer were seen. Went and pulled my game-cam cards today and found video of three hog dogs running past one of them earlier in the DAY (about 3 p.m.). Don't know if they were lost from the night before or running that day, but they darn sure were on MY property.

Getting REALLY tired of having my efforts thwarted by someone else's inability to control their dogs, or cavalier attitude about where they roam.

Put a big bowl of dog food out and surround it with leg hold traps catch the dog and then blast them and then leave them laying there with. Nice note warning it will happen again if they continue to trespass.

I feel your pain, but like you already know, they are not going to stop.

If it were MY property, you bet your a$$ it would stop. Immediately. I would trap the dogs with a trap baited with dog or cat food, and call the owners. I would tell them in no uncertain terms that this was their ONLY and LAST warning to keep their dogs and themselves off of my property. After that if I saw the animals I would exterminate them and haul them about 10 miles away, and throw the collars into the nearest dumpster.

Folks, this is nothing but a form of INTIMIDATION by the guys running the dogs. They have no concern for anyone else and have already shown that they won't heed a polite request.

My property is MY property. It's plain and simple. I rule that property in the manner I choose. If you trespass or otherwise disrespect me, you will pay the price. On the other hand, I am a polite and easy neighbor if treated with respect. Ask permission FIRST. Not afterwards. Intimidation doesn't fly with me at all.

Thought I'd go sit on stand for a bit this evening. Not expecting to see the 'group' of hogs I had coming in (before the hog dogs ruined that)....and sure enough they didn't show.

But I did have a lone boar show up about 9:00 p.m.

The bait site is 100 yards from my stand and is lit up with a red LED light, but with the moon out tonight it creates kind of a twilight effect and actually makes it harder to see anything under the light.

I thought I saw a little movement way out on the edge of the light, so I picked up my binoculars to take a closer look. I could just make out the outline of a pig feeding at the periphery of the light but darting away.

Since it was all by itself....I figured it to be a 'Boar'. It was very skittish about going under/into the light....but after about 20 minutes finally moved into the light enough that I could see it clearly through the 4 power scope.

I centered the illuminated dot high on the shoulder and steadily pressed the two stage trigger. The rifle bucked and I could hear the 'crack' of the 405 grain soft-point as it made impact.

Recovering from the recoil....I looked through the scope to see a familiar scene. My hog right there....no so much as a twitch from it. I continue to be amazed at how effective a Big Bore cartridge at medium velocity can be.

This wasn't a giant hog by any means. Kind of 'lanky' actually. Still...it taped out at 44" (heart girth) and 52" from snout to base of tail. I'd estimate its weight at approximately 220 lbs., not that I care what they weigh. I'm just happy to get another one out of the breeding pool.









^^^^^ My apologies for the poor quality cell phone pics. I need to start taking my camera with me again.

Flint.

No.

As much as it angers me.... I will not 'punish' the dog for the owners transgression.

Yes. It might abate for short periods of time, but in Deep East Texas....there seems to be a cultural mindset that is not easily broken.

Yet again, the people advocating shooting dogs that are not attacking people, domestic livestock or fowl are advocating breaking the law. It's a crime no different than people trespassing. I can't believe moderators let this continue.the law is easy to find with a simple search.

I feel for the OP and congratulate you for taking the high road and obeying the law. Law issues aside, the last thing you probably want is a shooting feud with some bubbas that don't have the common sense to keep their dogs where they have permission.

http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-42-092.html

Feral pigs are classified as Exotic Animals, not livestock: "Exotic animal refers to grass-eating or plant-eating, single-hoofed or cloven-hoofed mammals that are not indigenous or native to Texas and are known as ungulates, including animals from the deer and antelope families that landowners have introduced into this state. Includes, but is not limited to feral hog, Aoudad sheep, Axis deer, Elk, Sika deer, Fallow deer, Blackbuck antelope, Nilgai antelope, and Russian boar. Exotic fowl refers to any avian species that is not indigenous to this state, including ratites (emu, ostrich, rhea, cassowary, etc.)."

And yes it is a cultural thing. Throughout the 19th Century and for a good part of the 20th, people had usufruct access to land in Texas. You were free to access woods that weren't fenced off. The law started changing when big paper companies bought up lots of land and pressured local and state governments to change. Before that, a lot of people in East Texas made a living off free range hogs. When access to the woods was cut off, a huge number of pigs were already out there. That's primarily why we have a feral hog problem and East TX is notorious for tresspassing. I think the last usufruct laws were repealed maybe in the late 40s or early 50s. Somewhere around there.

I just don't see a point in complaining about it if your not willing to fix the problem.

Amen!

Learn something new everyday.

I would rather deal with hog dogs running around the oilfield jerks driving all over my pasture because they can't maintain a road. It should be legal considered trespassing. They are worse than coons. If they can't tear it up or eat it. They crap on it.

I am 'willing' to do what I can (within the confines of the Law and with respect to Moral principles).

I've caught some dogs in the past, removed their collars and contacted the owners, but a new bunch of hog-doggers soon take their place.

As I've mentioned before....I fully understand that on 'occasion' a dog will stray farther than intended and that IF a well intentioned effort to cease the hunt and retrieve the dog(s) is made, I can overlook that.

It is the wantonly, habitual offenders that I am concerned with. Some have NO intention of keeping their dogs in check and have no regard for property lines or the potential trouble their dogs cause when entering another's property.

Catching these folks on your property is not an easy thing to do and they seem to know that.

You would have REAL legal remedy IF you could catch the persons (trespassing). Typically, they run their dogs late at night or sometimes on a Sunday night, knowing full well...most land owners will not venture out into the woods to try and find them.

Your only chance of coming upon them would be when/if the dogs bayed a pig and were stationary for a short period of time. Most often, these guys actually have permission to hunt property adjacent to (or near) yours, but simply let the dogs go as far as they wish. Their dogs are often found miles from where they started out.

I don't fault the dogs and I will not kill/injure the dogs in retribution. Besides being illegal (in most cases)....it would be Morally incorrect as well.

As for my 'complaint', it is my hope that by 'airing' this issue out on a public forum, it might cause some to rethink their actions and others to join in combating it.

A fools errand perhaps, but I am committed to 'trying' diplomacy rather than barbarism. I don't see how killing innocent dogs would "fix" the problem, long term?

From the groups of doggers I know that is par for the course. They don't care about property lines.

In recent years Feral Pigs have been 're-classified' as Exotic Livestock, which opens up some 'gray' areas in the law with respect to whether or not they can be protected under Texas law concerning 'property'.

http://feralhogs.tamu.edu/files/2011/08/Feral-Hog-Laws-and-Regulations-in-Texas.pdf


This is the States way of avoiding responsibility for the Hogs, by conveying 'ownership' to the hapless person upon which property the hogs reside (at the moment). Nice huh?

On any given day, I am the owner of a fluid number of Feral Pigs whether I want them or not.

Tomorrow, my neighbor might 'own' more pigs than me, the next day it might be the guy two ranches over. Just depends upon the travel pattern of the pigs.

But one thing is certain, the STATE (people of the State) of Texas makes no claim to them...as they do with all of the game animals.

Sounds like you might want to re-word the title of this thread. Because in my eyes ..... you're not "Pissed Off". Yet. I would have gone much farther if it were me. I commend your patience and honesty. But all that's doing is allowing the situation to fester.

Collar or no collar, dogs chasing deer or hogs on private property get put down. Especially if I'm in the stand and it ruins the hard work, time and effort I put into a hunt.

Example: Six doe's in a field, waiting on a buck to step out. 2 pits come charging in and give chase to the deer. Pits expire before they can exit the field.

Right, Wrong or Indifferent, people need to maintain control of their animals.

Oh...I disagree.

I believe a person can be quite angry (pissed off) about an issue....but not act irrationally, impulsively or be moved solely by emotion.

That doesn't mean I am not disturbed by the situation, I just realize it is the result of generations of habits and 'teachings' and that it will take time, education and perseverance to correct.

Starting a 'range war' by killing someones dogs will not solve the problem (long term).


Seems there are a few here who's first reaction would be to 'strike back'?

You would think that Hog-Doggers would be careful to police their own...and maybe they do in certain areas, but it doesn't seem that way in my part of Deep East Texas.

I get it.

But in my mind this is intimidation in it's most basic form. It's trespassing. Period. And you have asked them to stop but they refuse. You've got your back against the wall with these guys, and they obviously don't understand plain English when you asked them to cease trespassing. I'm certainly glad I'm not in your shoes, because I don't think I could put up with their obvious "screw you" attitude.

Hope you find a peaceful way to resolve this.

But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.

The dog owners obviously don't care whose property they are on nor what the property owner thinks about it.

In some cases this is true. But I should be clear, it isn't the same person (or dogs) each time (though I've had repeat offenders).

We have Hog Doggers going door to door asking permission to run their dogs on a persons property. These folks are often from another county. They are always looking for new places to 'hunt'.

I always turn them down and tell them why, but other land owners with similar pig problems don't have the time or the means to control the hogs themselves. So they let the Hog-Doggers come in.

Nothing wrong with that IF the doggers can/will control where the dogs go. Sadly that doesn't happen very often. Hogs cause a LOT of damage to pastures and hay meadows around here and dogs can be an effective way to run hogs out an area (for short periods of time), this at no cost to the land owner.

So its 'good' for some folks, bad for others.

Part of the problem is that catching hogs with dogs does little to reduce the population of the hogs. At the same time it does a LOT to educate them and spread them out. Lets be honest....hog-dogging (while it has its place) is more 'sport' than it is an effective tool to reduce feral hog numbers.

I am not summarily against any method used to kill hogs, the more the better IMO.

if i had dogs running loose i'd be
scared they'd get caught in traps
folks had set out for coyotes and
such or maybe ate poison a landowner
had set out. some of those larger
conibear traps can't be released easy
without some of those tongs to set
them with, and there'd be no way for
the dog owners to release the trap.

With so many people looking for places to hunt hogs (I'll be in that boat also) why don't you go to the neighboring land owners and tell them what you are dealing with, and encourage them to allow hunters in instead of the dog folks? And they could also charge the hunters a nominal amount to hunt which would benefit them, also? I'm certain that there would be hunters lining up waiting to get access. That would help solve the neighbor's hog problems and fix your dog problems.

Or am I missing something?

No more illegal than the hog doggers...Probably less so, the burden of proof is on the govt to show that the animal shot wasn't in compliance with the law. Good luck with that.

Creedmoor wrote:



That might be 'viable' some places, but in my area....it doesn't work for a variety of reasons.

Not the least of which is 'liability' if someone hurts themselves on your property (even IF a waiver has been signed).

But here are some of the objections/issues involved.

1. Most land owners have already had a bad experience (or two, or three) with people/hunters leaving gates open, leaving trash around, driving off of roads, tearing up roads, crossing fences, not observing game laws.

2. Most properties in Deep East Texas are small ranches of less than 1500 acres. It is very easy to over-hunt a small parcel of land. So 'continuous' traffic by hunters puts too much pressure on the hogs and hunter success will drop to nearly zero in short order.

3. If you don't 'Vet' the people you let onto your property, you end up with folks who are 'enthusiastic' about the opportunity to hunt hogs, but aren't really very GOOD at it. The natural results of that are: Disappointed hunters, More educated hogs (now harder to kill than ever), Hogs spread out due to ineffective hunting pressure.

4. Land owners with livestock (primarily cattle) run the risk of having someone mistakenly shoot one.

5. IF you intend to have people (whose abilities you are unsure of) on your property, you darn sure better have a good blanket insurance policy.

Bottom line: No ONE method (save for aerial hunting) is sufficient to significantly reduce an established Feral Hog population.

The Goal is (and must always be) to kill as many as possible every chance you get. That means being 'smart' about it. Not just bring in a 'harassing' force that temporarily moves them off of YOUR property.

The purpose here isn't to "Swap Hogs With Your Neighbor", but to KILL as many hogs as is humanly possible.

Each time you have an encounter with a hog or a group of hogs and you fail to kill it/them, they learn from it. No...they aren't Super Animals but they aren't stupid either. The point being...the Land Owner or other persons known to be experienced, knowledgeable, successful hunters are the best persons for the job.

I don't know of anyone near me that is interested in making any money off of hog hunts, what we ARE interested in...is reducing the damage done to crops, pastures, hay meadows and ponds. Also reducing the spread of diseases that cause cattle to abort or to otherwise suffer poor health.

Feral Hogs in my area are universally viewed as a scourge by Land Owners and Ranchers. Only certain hunters and Hog Doggers seem to want them around.

It is a complicated problem with no easy solutions.

Bunch of Internet tuff guys on this thread!

what makes you think these internet tough guys wouldn't follow through with what they are saying?

Not saying they won't, but don't think for a second it's as simple as killing a dog and it's over with! Even removing the tracking collar from a hunting dog is illegal. I hunt big places and have land owner permission around me to retrieve my dogs. That's not to say that it's impossible my dogs can't end up on property where I have never been. If that were to happen I'm not just gonna come looking for my dog without trying to seek out the land owner first. I can guarantee if my dogs end up on your place they ain't chasing anything but pork. These BS stories about pit bulls just running wild or hog dogs chasing deer are majority of the time just that, BS!! The problem is when guys know they do not have permission and continue to hunt there knowing where they're going to end up. Don't throw all of us under the bus based on the stupidity of others. Shoot one of my dogs some time and we'll see how it plays out. The shoot shovel and shut up ain't gonna work when I can walk to the exact spot that collar gets turned off. May turn out to be the most expensive animal you've ever killed one way or another!

Do you think that if someone shot your dog they would be stupid enough to turn the collar off where they kill and bury the dog? It would be simple to shoot the dog. Bury it. Move the collar to a different place and turn it off, then destroy it in a different place again.

If it were my property and you ask me permission as you stated and it never happens again it's water under the bridge. But I would be very clear if it happens again and I see your dog it would be SSS for your dog.

Flintknapper it seems to me the simple solution for the problem is find some reputable trappers and send them to your neighbors.

From there its deciding what your willing to put up with.

Flint, I don't see hog doggers as any more close knit than any other community of hunters. Probably the only times they do any policing is when somebody steps on their toes, just like with any other hunters. They don't care if some other hog dog team is trespassing somewhere they don't hunt. That just isn't any of their business and so they don't bother with it. They may not like it much, but they aren't going to do anything about it.

You obviously do not have much experience with tracking dogs and how these collars work. If you shoot my dog and take the collar off you better run around like a dog hunting as you leave that area. Will be pretty obvious when the track goes from running around tracking like a dog to a straight line driving in a vehicle. Yes I can still follow the track right back every step of that dog. It leaves a map everywhere they go. I had a shock collar fall off one time and could follow that dogs back track close enough that I was able to follow the dogs trail and find where that collar came off. Basically what I am saying is even doing what you said I can still follow my dogs trail to a T! I can tell you real quick if something ain't right and I can get there pretty damn quick as well. As I said I highly recommend not shooting anyone's hunting dog. Not worth the trouble!

All this talk about "internet tough guys"...

just curious what you would do when I told you "no, you can't enter my property to get your dogs"? As a property owner, I have that right.

I also have the right to put out traps and poison for varmint control. Your dog gets in one of my traps or finds a cyanide bomb, then what?

The attitude of the hog doggers is their worst enemy.

I don't advocate shooting anyone's dog unless it is a threat to a person or livestock. Stray dog roaming the land won't get shot. Cows start running, horses start running, sheep scatter, etc...whether the dog is actually chasing them or not, is justification under Texas Law. Hiding behind one section of the law as justification for not controlling your dogs, not protecting the life of an animal that doesn't understand boundaries and not having to trespass is irresponsible.

Sounds like you have it all figured out. I highly recommend you not test out your theory on me or someone like me if you want to see your dog live another day. I have a track record of having no qualms shooting animals I don't consider pets and your dog would be viewed as such. I consider it worth the trouble to protect my property and I am not intimidated by the trouble you might bring.

Simple call to the game warden will allow me to retrieve my dogs. Dog owners have more rights then what you guys think. I have dealt with some very pissed off land owners even though I handle the situation as respectfully as I can. Their attitudes change when game warden shows up.

No I don't have it all figured out. I'm just sick of people wanting to shoot dogs for simply being on their property. What threat to your property does a dog baying a pig pose? Now if a dog is chasing livestock shoot it or I'll shoot it myself! As I said before I know if my dogs are chasing anything it's a hog and if I end up on your property I'll do all I can to find you and explain what happened get my dogs and move on. If I can't find you then I'll call local game warden. The guys the just keep causing problems on your property just don't care and I Would hate for something to happen to any of your property over a stupid decision to shoot someone's dog as well. It gets awfully dry and hot in Texas and I know many of these people that have the don't care attitude that would just as soon burn you down over killing their dog. Would hate to see you homeless over a decision like that. As I said it may very well end up being the most expensive animal you ever shot. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over this because I've running dogs a while and I just simply don't hunt like these guys y'all are talking about. Just hope our paths never cross and you decide to kill my dogs simply because you had problems with someone else's dogs in the past.

Yep, GW or Sherriff can enter with you but you can't just go get your dogs like most do. Take a gun or weapon and it gets serious quick.

Don't blame you for ignoring the rest of the post

It will always be a problem because of the attitude of the doggers and their "right" to not control their dogs or "right" to enter into other people's property. If they were respectful and ethical hunters that took action to limit the mistakes, and then handled the mistakes with respect to the property owner where the infraction occurred...things would be much simpler and better for all.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything changing unless it just gets worse.

I see no reason to hide the collar or anything else. IMO the dog is dangerous and a threat to my life bc it is trained to bat hogs . If you can't protect yourself against these dangers on your own property then I guess the consequences will be worth the trouble.

Doesn't have to be a "threat".....that attitude is your problem.....I'll make it very, very simple for you.....it's my property and I don't want them or you on it period.....you guys have this cavalier attitude that because you are just chasing pigs its no big deal if you trespass every once in a while....to some people like me....it is a very big deal.....

....as for our paths crossing....I couldn't agree with you more....

Flint I think we may have found your incompetent hog dogger.

Agreed

I ll make it so expensive that you ll never want to be on/ near my property again

I can play that money game , too

And threats will be dealt with with deadlier consequences

The sheriff in my county is landowner friendly

I also liked the veiled threat about burning your place down if you shoot his dog.....

seems lke the game wardens could help with the trespassing

I miss the guy that used to be here that always argued he had the right to go anywhere to get his dogs, kill the pig, take the pig and collect his dogs...

Yup....sigh here, press hard, five copies......

Does this banny rooster talk actually work for you?

Sooner or later the talking stops and the action takes place.....I agree with you that you should hope our paths don't cross under those circumstances.

You guys just don't get it. Trespassing with your dogs chasing hogs on my property is a threat to my life, and that doesn't have to mean life and death for me, my family or my livestock. It disrupts what we work hard for every day....the life we build for ourselves. What did your parents teach you growing up?

Some years ago there was a pack of dogs chasing something on my place. I went to investigate. There were 4 of them, and they started at me. Lucky they were coming slowly enough. I got 3 of them and the 4th retired from the field. Since then I have been less tolerant of dogs on my place that I don't recognize as belonging to a neighbor. I still have a problem blasting dogs, though. Last year or the year before, I had two hog dogs (wearing tracker collars and red checkered cloth around their necks) running a medium sized pig, and they caught him in my side yard. Each dog had a grip on one end of the pig. I shot the pig from between the dogs. If I see them again, I can't say that I won't shoot them. An uninvited hunting dog is exactly that - uninvited - and I don't want to hear any BS about the whys and wherefores. I DO NOT want to shoot somebody's hog dogs, so don't put me in the position of having to make that decision.

Solves the problem now doesn't it......stay off my property and all of this is a non-issue.....

No reason you should be defensive about the lawbreaking perpetrated by your counterparts. I am sure if your dogs end up on someone's property and you contact the BEFORE making entry or go through the game warden to assist you, there will be no problem. You aren't the type of person people are complaining about. You just happen to be in a hobby that has fallen into his disfavor by a lot of people because your counterparts have not abided by the law. You are going to remain sick and tired of there being threats to dogs because your counterparts keep letting their dogs run illegally and keep trespassing after them illegally.

My first contact with a hog dogger was classic. Was in the local cafe looking at game cam images from my property when this guy approached me and said he saw the pics of hogs and that he could help me out. When I asked how, he said he ran dogs. I thanked him politely, explaining that my place was too small to run dogs effectively and that the hogs would be off the property inside of 30 seconds, crossing over to the neighbor's places where I don't have permission to go. The guy, straight faced, said to me something along the lines of, "Fences are no problems for us. We go through the wire [quads] and just fix it on our way back out." I said, "You cut the wire?" and he replied, "Yeah. How else do we get our quadrunners through?"

That is the exact wrong attitude.

Oh...that's nothing. Just go onto any number of Hog Dogging forums and search "tresspassing" or any other buzz word. Be ready to be astonished at the 'bluster' (or not) printed there. Unbelievable some of the attitudes. Talk about killing anyone that would harm their dogs, burning property, blatantly stating they WILL follow their dogs wherever they go and will just take whatever comes.

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?action=search2

I know there are responsible Hog Doggers out there, I want to say that AGAIN, but I've personally met very few. If they don't get a handle on the BAD doggers soon, the sport is going to go the way of hunting deer with dogs, GONE!

Flintknapper...I did the search and you are right. They consider trespassing to be ok and just a normal part of their hunting. Pretty astonishing lack of respect for other people's property rights.

YUP

In counties with leash laws, a dog's owner is generally required to be in control of that dog. Either physically by leash or by voice command. If that uncontrolled dog trespasses onto another person's property, where permission has not been granted, then the animal is considered "Running at large", which is a criminal violation. Unauthorized entry onto the property to recover the dogs is also a criminal violation (trespassing). If the purpose of that trespassing has to do with hunting, then there are also additional criminal violations that apply under the TPW Code.

If your dogs are running or harassing livestock or wildlife on property belonging to another and without consent of the owner, then the owner, his agent, or designee has the right to dispatch that dog for depredation. And in this case, feral hogs do constitute "wildlife".

Best advise I can offer to hog doggers, keep your dogs where they belong or run the risk of the consequences...natural and/or legal.

Last time I checked feral hogs were considered livestock by the TAHC, and there are regulations about transporting live ones. As livestock, those dogs are harassing your livestock. Feral hogs on your property are considered YOURS, and belong to you. I don't think many landowners realize this.

You can read about TAHC regulations regarding feral hogs here: TAHC Feral Swine Regs

It is true that Feral Hogs have been re-classified as 'Exotic Livestock'...and as such are the property of Land Owner (technically).

http://feralhogs.tamu.edu/files/2011/08/Feral-Hog-Laws-and-Regulations-in-Texas.pdf



But the stipulation for 'ownership' is that the Hogs are under the 'care' or 'control' of the Land Owner/Lessee/Agent.

Fortunately, that requirement found in Texas Agriculture Code Section 161.002. is written rather broadly and tends to favor the Land Owner should an issue arise.




BUT.....until a case actually goes to court to lend supporting 'Case Law', I suspect we will continue to see this problem (Hog Dogs and Hog Doggers), with 'trespass' being about the strictest penalty.

Additionally, it is important for Land Owners to know WHO to call if they have a problem. Game Wardens typically handle game related offences (though they are fully commissioned Officers of the Law). They will be the persons most likely to harshly cite someone.

The Sheriffs department might be able to respond more quickly, but they don't usually involve themselves in game laws and are probably not well versed where the laws may overlap (game/criminal).

But...'Trespass' (in its various forms) can be handled by either the Sheriffs Dept or a Game Warden. Personally, I'd get a GW involved...since there is too much chance a 'local' might be the offender. I've heard of Deputy's exercising their 'discretion' and no meaningful charges being brought.

Lastly, the TAHC is charged with enforcing regulations related to the transportation, feeding and keeping of 'live' Feral Hogs. Generally, they would not be involved directly with a Land Owner.

Anyway, this issue with certain Hog Doggers will 'evolve' for the better IF there is an effort made to educate both Land Owners and Hog Doggers of the new classification and what it means to both party's.

Of course the simple solution would be for HD's to control their dogs, respect property lines and rights.... and maybe raise their 'ethics' just a tad.

Hog Doggers are quickly getting a Bad Name many places...because of the actions of a certain number of them.

I know I've had my fill of them!

Not to 'labor' the point, but this is why I don't want Hog Doggers running through our property without permission. Year 'round I am actively trapping hogs and more often than not, it involves an investment in time and bait.

It is not unusual for me to spend a week (or more) conditioning the hogs to go into a trap, only to have them run off the property by someone with no permission to be there.

I finally got this small group to start going back into the trap. I set the trigger wire last night and checked the trap this morning. Four small Boars and a Sow (Gilt).

Again, I have nothing against the 'sport' of hunting hogs with Dogs. I do consider it inefficient (when compared to other methods) but that is fine...as long as it isn't affecting me.

I prefer to take them out by the trailer load.

That top pig has some great color and spots

As I already said, I can count on one hand the number of times I have had a problem stopping my dogs before they got on property where I do not already know the landowner and have an agreement with them. What gets me are these dead on site attitudes. If I have ran my dogs for years down the road from you and my dogs have never stepped foot on your place, you think it's ok to kill them the first time they do. We are all hunters and if some of y'all would remove the plug from your butt and go hunting with someone that runs their dogs the way I do you may see we're not all the same. That's like saying all deer hunters use a spotlight and poach just because a lot of people do. How many of you guys would call in a tracking dog to help find your wounded deer? Do I have the right to shoot that dog as soon as it crosses on to my property trailing your wounded trophy? You guys that are saying the dogs are threatening your life, c'mon that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I have hunted behind a lot of dogs and we never crossed onto someone else's property. Truly enjoyed it.

Comparing doggers and their attitude to deer hunters and spotlighting is just ridiculous. I have never met a hunter that not only justifies a criminal act, but advocates for others to break the same law.

Show me a thread where the whitetail hunters justify and advocate spotlighting, encourage others to spotlight, and ridicule anyone that says spotlighting is wrong because it is their "right".

They make a cream for that

yes shoot on sight

Bone I got this here hurt feelings report I need you to fill out

First off you have to have feelings to get them hurt. Second I am not the kind of hunter that does not care about crossing property lines. I'm not saying I am perfect or that my dogs know the property boundaries so yes there is always a chance my dogs may cross a fence. I can usually call them back fairly quick if they are not hot on the heels of a pig and I am not just going to cross a fence chasing them without permission. I do not hunt my dogs in daylight during deer season because I do not want to take the chance of messing up anyone's hunt. This is not because I intend on trespassing but rather just in case someone is hunting near by that I am not aware of. I have nothing to hide, every one of my dogs has my full name and cell phone number on their collar. If my dogs are ever on any of yalls property a simple phone call saying hey I found your dogs will solve the entire problem. Shooting my dogs and then telling me they were chasing anything other then a pig or posed a threat to you, then now you are just a pathetic liar because I know better. I do not run junk dogs, my dogs are hunted around deer, cattle, and anything else you can imagine but they are 100% hog dogs! In fact I run my dogs the hardest around my deer feeders the month before deer season to keep the hogs off my feeders and I have more deer traffic after I do. So I can say without a doubt my dogs catching hogs does nothing but increase my deer activity. Bottom line is y'all aren't mad at the dogs your mad at the handlers. All I was saying in my previous posts is to be careful how you deal with some of those guys. Laugh at me or try to push my buttons all you want! My skin is far to thick to give a damn! Good luck to you all.

You know, it never fails. When hog dogging becomes the subject there tends to be strong feelings on both sides of the issue. I've hunted behind dogs, and had a good time. I've even owned some of my own hog dogs, and enjoyed hunting them. I mostly hunted SHNF when they allowed hog dogging there. The group of guys I hunted with were very careful with their dogs, and had a good handle on them. We didn't have any landowner issues.

With that said, I've also owned a small piece of land and had some serious problems with dogs on it. I've had problems with both pets and hunting dogs. I've had similar problems on deer leases with pets and hunting dogs. On a few of the leases the unwritten rule was that if a dog, any dog, was sighted running on the lease during the deer hunting season they were to be taken out of the gene pool, period. While I never shot one, I am pretty sure there a few taken out of the gene pool. There were lots of issues in some area's with hog doggers running their dogs at night, and disregarding fences and property lines. Many folks had them on game camera's going by their feeders. Corn feeders are a favorite place for hog doggers to start their dogs.

The bottom line as I see it is that land owners have the right to be free from dogs running their land, and dog owners trespassing on their land. Hogs are classified as exotic livestock, and belong to the landowners to do with as they see fit. My personal feelings are that the charges and fines for trespassing should be much stiffer. Then these hog doggers who think they can go where ever they want to might think twice about it. And, quite honestly, if their dogs get shot on someones property where they didn't have permission to hunt it's the dog handlers fault. Stay on property where you have permission to hunt. And, if that property is not large enough to hold your dogs don't hunt there. Go where you have permission and the property is large enough they won't wander off of it. Period, end of story.

Yea, I prefer to take out a trailer load myself.


Sometimes I'll even take a friend with me. I'm on the right.

Gentlemen, please keep your responses 'civil'. Otherwise you are going to get this thread locked by attacking one another instead of talking about the issues. Once the tread is closed...we lose our ability to discuss potential remedies for the problem.

As I've already said, it is not my intention to disparage an entire group of people and I know there are responsible Hog Doggers out there. BUT in my part of Deep East Texas there DOES exist a lot of unprincipled guys running dogs.

If that doesn't change SOON....you might well expect to see legislation calling for much stiffer fines and penalties in the future.

This just doesn't have to be!

Certain Hog Doggers are their own worst enemy. I wish they could see that.

Flintknapper you are correct some Hog Doggers are their own worst enemy. It appears you are having to deal with the worst type, and I think if handled properly this would no longer be an issue.

I have been hog dogging for almost 10 years and i understand entirely where Bone is coming from. I can count on one hand how many times my dogs have gotten off the hunting property and onto a property i did not have permission to access. Most times they can be called back but if chasing a hog they will not stop. In every situation that i could not call them back I found the land owner or called the game warden so I could retrieve my dogs. Every time that has occurred I had no problem retrieving my dogs and was allowed to retrieve them any time after the initial incident after a phone call. Of course i did not approach the situation with any sense of entitlement and was courteous/apologetic for the inconvenience.

I can also understand where Bone is coming from a lot of blood, sweat, and tears goes into these dogs and to hear people say they will kill your dog and toss your collar just for seeing your dog will get under your skin pretty quick. if you will indulge look at it this way, if your dog got out of your yard and the neighbor down the street shot your dog just for being in their yard how would you feel?

In the end, some hog doggers are not worth much and i hate to be associated with that type in any way. Flintknapper i feel you have done them solid with your first encounter and now with repeat offenses you should do what you need to solve the issue, whatever that may be. Sorry to hear you are dealing with these people.

Yep. There are definately some bad ones out there. Those that cut fences, purposely hunt your property etc are real chit heads. I've been around and hunted with some of those and no longer associate with them. I hunt with a good group of pig doggers. I SMDH at some of you "shoot on site guys". You go ahead and do that to a real pig dog that screws up/goes long and crosses a fence. See how that works out for you.

what's the worse that could happen?

I know this feeling as well. It takes a lot of time, energy, and money, to put together a good hog dog pack. I had 8 hog dogs at one point, mostly catahoula's and BMC's. They weren't the best either, not by a long shot. So, I made sure that I hunted property where they wouldn't wander off into private lands where I didn't have permission to hunt. Mine were also fairly short range dogs. And, I had a pretty good handle on them. I wanted well mannered dogs that listened to me, and did as they were told. I had a motorcycle accident back in 2003 that pretty much put an end to my hog dogging, as my knee's were damaged severely. So, I sold or gave away all of my hog dogs.

I still have some dogs that are pets. And, to answer your question above, I have a chain link fence all the way around my one acre of paradise. If my dogs get out my neighbors have all been told to do as they see fit. One of them called the animal control officer on me because my kids were walking down the street with the dogs, and they were not on the leash. They were obeying my kids and staying with them, but that wasn't good enough for my neighbor. It is what it is. I've had the neighbors dog get into my yard trying to fight my dogs and me. Rather than kill him, which I should have as he was in attack mode, I shot into the ground in front of him. That shot scared him enough he went out of my open gate, and back to his yard. I talked with the neighbor, who apologized. I advised in the future there wouldn't be a warning shot for a dog that is growling, and snarling at me and mine. I'm more careful coming in and out of my gate now days to avoid that same situation. I probably should have shot that dog though. Two weeks ago that same dog got into another neighbors yard and killed their beagle. The police were called. The dog was declared dangerous, and a ticket was issued. I'm not sure how it's going to pan out, but it just shows how important it is for the dog OWNERS to take responsibility for their dogs, period. It's YOUR responsibility to ensure your dogs are staying on property where they belong. And, if you fail in that responsibility you have no one to blame but yourself if they get shot.

No where did I say it is not my responsibility, I take full responsibility for anything I own or do which why I have track, train, and identification on all my animals. In your example you still did not shoot the dog given he was attacking your dog as well as you. I commend your reserve as that dog, or even one of my own, would not have been so lucky at my house given a similar scenario. You allowed the owner to remedy the issue which is more than you can ask as the owner of the animal.

It's too bad you were forced out of hunting, maybe one day we can get together and make a hunt sometime. I run BMC, not too longe range either and i hunt rather large properties which is why I have hardly gotten off the property.

You can be sued, like the land owner in East Texas a few years ago that had to pay $145,000 and do jail time for shooting a coon dog that he claimed was getting after his horses. You can't just shoot a hunting dog anymore. Falls under Federal animal cruelty laws. The dog you shot has to literally be hanging off of said livestock or threatening lives (and good luck with that "he's on my property so he's threatening my life" nonsense). Like I said, you can't just shoot on site because a dog ends up on your property...or in your yard. To be clear, I shoot feral dogs that chase deer or show aggression towards people or other dogs. People dump dogs and they form aggressive packs. There is a difference between shooting aggressive feral dogs and shooting someones trained/suited up/GPS collared pig dog that happened to cross the fence. Like said, go for it and good luck with that. Guys like the group I hunt with take measures to avoid one of our dogs from trespassing, not everyone hunts that way though unfortunately...BUT if one of our dogs does get "shot on sight" because he crosses a fence chasing a pig...get ready for it cause it's coming.

Thank You for your input Sir. I wish that all (or any) of my encounters had been as thoughtful as you suggest your practices to be.

Sadly, they have not. But even so....as I have stated repeatedly, I will not shoot anyone's dogs (hog dogs) that are simply on my property. Additionally, I do not advocate that others do so....nor support their position if that is what they espouse.

My hope is that 'communicating' the concerns of Land Owners directly to Hog Doggers might serve to change the ways of some of the 'bad' ones.

I would encourage anyone here that runs dogs and is a member of a group or a member of a Forum to share this thread (link) with others and invite them here provided they can participate with meaningful dialog.

I understand there are strong feelings about the subject on both sides. The sad part of it all...is that there exists "sides" at all.

So guys....here's your chance to share the topic with others you may know.


Flint.

different scenario, landowner shot that dog after the owner had leashed it,
shot it while owner was holding dog on leash

I've never wanted to kill any dog. However, I will when the need arises. I've only had to do it twice. Both times were dogs that didn't belong on the property, and were showing aggression to the point I was concerned with my families safety. Neither were hunting dogs. Both were strays, or dumped. The one I scared off with my .45 at home was a large pit, and well loved by their family. I didn't want to kill him. I like to keep on good terms with my neighbors. After the incident with their dog I made sure they knew if it happened again the dog wouldn't be leaving my yard alive. They understood. In fact, she asked me why I didn't shoot him this time. I guess I'm a softee.

While I don't hunt hogs with dogs anymore, I still hunt. My running days are pretty much over though. I wear braces on my knee's most of the time now days. I can walk a good long ways still. After my accident I couldn't walk for several months, and was in a wheelchair. The hog dogging community actually took real good care of me, and helped me out a lot. The TDHA did a benefit baying for me, and it helped my family tremendously. I have tremendous respect for the guys who do it the right way. After my accident I hunted a few times with my hunting partners. I had a bad limp, made me walk in circles if I didn't pay attention. One night I was leading four dogs out after we caught a large boar and I got turned around. The fella's had to come back in, find me, and bring me out to the trucks. While they ribbed me a bit, and were mostly understanding, I always felt like I was slowing them down. Didn't feel right to me. So, I faded away into my own world of hunting and fishing.

I appreciate the invite to a hunt. I'd love to make a hunt with you sometime. I truly enjoy hearing the dogs baying. And, there ain't nothing finer than seeing a good catch dog run in and hammer that hog. That was always something I truly enjoyed.

Just a couple of nostalgic pics of some hunts in the SHNF. My two boys were pretty young back then. They're grown now, and bigger than me. They're my muscle now days. They've asked me to take them hog dogging again. But, I haven't made any contacts to get back into the game again.

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