Sighting in my Thor Thermal

I have had a hell of a time getting my Thor sighted in...

Went to Elm Fork on Saturday (Quail Creek is closer, but they were flooded). I was the only person there on the 25/50 ft section up until the end. Set up on the 25ft line, took a few shots, couldn't seem to hit the paper. Asked the RO to come stand behind me and look as I fire. 5-8 shots, he tells me I'm bouncing off the concrete? I've got the reticle moved almost all the way up... Start looking for something on my gun/mount that can somehow be off. Shoot 3-5 more rounds, tells me the same thing. WTF! So I give up on the Thermal for a bit, and sight in my Red Dot I hung off the side (given I've had almost as many encounters too close for a scope as I've had at distance). 3-4 shots, he's on. Pop the Thermal back on and use the red dot to see where the Thor is pointing...it was shooting high! Not sure how one shoots high and bounces one off the concrete in the same shot. To wind up this day, since I hadn't read the directions "fully", turns out when I thought I was saving my zero parameters, I wasn't... I also got my Larue equipped glass scope sighted in. The RO told me no matter what, if I took the scope off, I'd have to boresight it again. I had to explain the purpose of the Larue and show him, indeed it goes on and off and maintains zero.

Undeterred, head out to Quail Creek Sunday afternoon... The dang rifle range is setup east-west, with the PM sun, on the targets. The plastic-type material of the splatter type targets heats up fast I guess and the hand warmers I bought evidently weren't too hot. I basically couldn't hardly locate my hot spot. The multitude of paper, plastic targets. some damp, some dry looked like a mosaic in the thermal. So I decide to try a paper target on cool damp wood (ripped the old stuff of completely). I'm at 100 yds (turned the scope off and lost the zero I set @ 50) and was searching for paper with the help of my 25yd sighted red dot. Seemed like I was all over the place, could not understand why. Turns out, the snapperhead (building a "tacticool" 223 as he called it) next to me, was shooting my target most of the time!

I was about out of BB's, clearly out of patience and figured there was something I still wasn't doing right to keep the zero profiles loaded. What a waste of 5 hrs of my weekend and some good ammunition.

I've now RTFM and paid attention this time... anyone have a better alternative to a handwarmer to light up a spot?

Thanks,
Charlie

Probably not an option for you, but I just zero on steel targets. You can also use reflective targets such as aluminized tape. You can use silver duct tape.

You can also use cold objects. Free a few bottles of water.

Oh man, that sounds stinky. Love the part about the guy shooting your target, that'll mess you up something fierce.

It isn't an easy task (although should not be as hard as you made it, read the manual next time!!) but once you get it sighted and trust it, boy is it fun!!

I've used several items for sighting in or confirming my zero for my thermal. I like to use the handwarmers taped to the target, but I ran out of them. I have used water heated up in a microwave and poured into a cup or old beer can taped to the target. This has worked twice for me. Once in the middle of no where, I had minimal gear, but had plenty of rocks and access to a propane torch. I heated up a small rock with the torch, and it worked well also, to see in the thermal.

Sighting in a thermal is a little more tricky than a common rifle. Understanding your scope settings, will no doubt help. But the first thing I do is pull the bolt on the AR and bore sight the thermal scope to what I see through the bore (your adjustments are backwards). This will get you close. I start at 25 or 50 yards, so it makes it easier. Once on there, I'll move back and fine tune my bore sight to 100 yards. I do all this before I even take a shot.

If you have a lot of items around your target area that light up your scope, nothing is going to improve the situation. Rip all of it off and the handwarmer should be fine. I've never had an issue.

Did you figure out how to save your setting? It is actually pretty simple on the Thor.

Those Thors are a PITA to zero.

I had borrowed one and had 30 minutes of daylight left to get it zeroed (not that daylight is needed but it helps when you can see controls and mounts, etc).

That zeroing system was way funky - I thought I was dialing in coordinates and then when I'd return to the zero screen it was 0/0 or something to that effect so I figured it hadn't taken and long story short, 30 rounds later I had no idea where the bullets were printing OR how to get back to true zero.

This was with no manual - I learned that day you can't assume that scopes would be easy to use...

Charlie, I like to use tin foil squares taped to a regular target. Zeroing thermals is a pain until you get used to it. They're also usually backwards to what you think the adjustment should be. The hand warmers are ok but they're a pain to fool with. Also if you can go in the morning when its cool it'll help.

Tin foil reflects the heat so they show up surprising good on thermal. I figured this out after a stalked a mylar ballon through one of my pastures thinking it was a small pig.

I tried the foil trick, and it didn't work for me. There was not enough temp difference to show up at 100 yards.

I meant to say I buy the heavy duty thick kind. Seems to work very good for me but your experience may differ. Trying to zero in the heat of the day is tough though no matter what.

Tin foil, thick or thin, works OK. Still, never had an issue with handwarmers. I use white 11 x 14 sheets of paper as a target area, then staple the handwarmer to that. Works great and you have a clean, white surround to see where your shots are landing.

I used an empty can filled will water out of my cooler the only time I sighted in. Had it sitting on a rock in front of a box. froze the target and moved the crosshairs. that was on a pulsar though.

I think a lot had to do with what the target material is mounted on. I have had trouble with handwarmers on a hot target stand in sunlight. Foil ended up working well in that regard. I have also had had trouble getting foil to show up well. I found it needed to be angled and act as a solar reflector on one given day.

Even with my steel targets, two may show up very well and three others may not, depending on how they are turned relative to the shooter.

I would echo that it helps a LOT to have a good white background around your thermal target to see where the shots impact. Mounting a handwarmer with masking tape also helps show shots close to the target.

Yes white background is clutch

Probably have better luck doing it at an indoor range this time of year. Foot warmer taped to a large shoot and see target may help.

It's a day later and I'm able to find some humor in my adventures on Sat and Sun. You have to admit, it's a pretty rich weekend when one day, one guy says you're hitting the ground when you're overshooting and the next day some knothead is shooting my target. Read and paying attention to the manual also helps vs guessing.

I know if I do like Popper did and wait until I get to the lease on Saturday, for some reason, it won't happen.

I'm going to try and get to Quail Creek again tomorrow, with some different heaters, foil and even try freezing something on a string maybe. I won't get another chance before Sat.

So answer this for me please. After I take my shot, I keep the reticle on my aim point and move the reticle to the impact point, correct?

Charlie

I Zero mine at 50yds. If you're 2 inches high at 50 for example move the value up two numbers and that should get you where you need to be. Make sure you're in the right menu. You can make on the fly adjustments with this scope that will not save once turned off.

Yes keep at aim point and move scope to where it hit. This works better if you have a gun vise of sort so you can clamp the rifle down.

I had a much more pleasant time today at the range, I know that's important for you guys to know.

I got fairly dialed in @ 50, was a little higher than I thought it should be at 100 (overshooting the target completely), but got it hitting a ragged 6x6 box doing fine adjustments before I stopped.

Anyone know what the group size is I should expect to put together with a 336-19mm Thor?

I can see how you guys with the 50-75+mm lens can have a clear aiming point. This base model 19mm @ 100 yds, in the day, white background, hand warmer, 2x or 4x on the zoom, not so much. I was shooting at a general blob, not a point. 100 yds and no zoom, I had a good clear picture, but the 4x4 or so aiming point at that disctance is the same size as the dot on my reticle. So getting in the square like a glass scope I just don't see being possible, at 100 yds. I'll try this again at night while I'm at the lease and see if dark/cool helps any.

I think I'll need to reset my goal to get a good zero at say 75 and do as Pappy mentioned with manual adjustments out beyond my zero. I'll report back Sunday with what I do and video of what I kill Sat night.

Charlie

Okay, so you are shooting at a general blob. You should be able to hit that general blob. Your shots should go where the crosshairs cross if that is the distance for which you want to be zeroed (and that sounds like it is). So if your crosshairs are in the middle of the blob, the shots should be in the middle of the blob. If your crosshairs are in the middle of the blob and you are shooting a 6 MOA group, that isn't good.

How big of a thermal target are you using? How about making a video of your shooting while sighting in and maybe we can comment better on what is going on?

He says he is using a handwarmer.

First things first though. Is the weapon new? Have you shot it with another optic? Do you know it is capable of holding tight groups? Is the round you are using proven with that weapon? If all of that is affirmative, then you can move to the issue you are having. If not, you have no way to know what the base capability is.

Is the scope good and locked down? Nothing loose or moving. Everything tight.

I get a lot of push back when I talk about these base scopes. I have often said that, for me, 100 yard shots with a 1X optical (3XX core) thermal scope are difficult. Sure, I could prolly hit a pig, but where? A handwarmer is a dot, a very small dot. When you take a 336 core and go to 2X (digital), making it 168 resolution, things get pretty fuzzy. If you take it a step further to 4X (digital) making it 84 resolution....well, at 100 yards...it's just not a pretty picture. DNS has a point. If you can get the crosshairs on the target, you should be able to make reasonable sized groups. However, that is theory. I don't think it works that way for most folks because the the dot you're aiming at is so small (sometimes even covered by the crosshairs), it is difficult to hold on it. This may not make theoretical sense to some, but it is the way I have observed it in the real world.

Charlie, it could be that you will struggle with this scope...particularly at 100 yards. Especially if you want to make well placed shots. 75 yards may be the best you can hope for.

This isn't necessarily directed to you Charlie, but I have said this a number of times on here and other places. People often buy these base scopes expecting more than they should. Dealers sell them to make the sell. Budget is often the loudest voice. Well, the person on a budget is the last person that should be spending what he has on a scope that isn't going to meet his expectations. It is a lot of money to him and now he has made a large expenditure that doesn't work for him. My minimum base optical for thermal is 2.5X, but I prefer at least 3X and above. 640 cores help with this also.

I hope you get it worked out.

Charlie,

You might try sighting in closer. A 1x thermal is about the equivalent of a red dot. A lot of people zero red dots at 25 yards, some at 50 and so on. I sight my 300 blackout in at 40 with the thermal. That gives me a kill zone shot from 20 out to about 175 which is the furthest I ever shoot at night. Also, try some other targets like cold water bottles, tin foil, etc. Often hand warmers spread the heat through the target and make the whole thing kind of fuzzy which doesn't help.

The thors are good and 1x is useable but its not intended for long range. You should realistically be able to hunt and make kill zone shots inside 150 or so though and further once you get more comfortable.

Also try switching to black hot instead of white. I find it usually shows up a sharper image especially during the day.

What are the specs on your rifle? Caliber, barrel, length, trigger? How good of a group can you shoot with a scope at a hundred or a red dot at say 25?

Here's a good write up on using a battle sight zero which is where you zero at a near target but it gives you a trajectory that will give hits out a good ways. It's what the military uses:

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/assets/zeroing.pdf

Yep, and handwarmers come in various sizes.

Yes, they do. But he didn't say footwarmer or whatever. I have found that when they are "handwarmers", they are very similar in size. LOL...

Sighted in 4 thermals today using handwarmers on white paper. No issues. One is an ATN.

The larger handwarmers are roughly 3 times the size of probably what you are thinking about, hence why I asked about the size.

I'm shooting an M&P AR-10. Have a Larue equipped glass scope that shoots half dollar size groupings at 100 yds on the same rifle. 150 grain rounds.

I made some good progress on Tuesday, but had to rush around given I didn't have a whole lot of time. I'm going to my lease Saturday and will get there early enough so I can relax, take my time and come up with a target array (foil, foot warmer size pads and tape to create a target design to help with definition). Will also take some video for you to see.

I really do understand entry level is entry level, knew that when I bought it. I'm just trying to figure out what the limits will be. I'm adding a garage addition on to the house, vehicle to buy for my soon to be 16 yr old, custom interior for car project, etc. Never ending list we all have. $5k scope just can't make the list for a while.

Get your popcorn ready for Sunday night.

Thanks for the help.

Charlie

I've had no problems using foil on a white background. Normally the foil will me cooler on a warm day. I start at 50 and verify at 200. I recommend a 2moa piece of foil to make viewing easier.

Best of luck Charlie!

We all have priorities in life. I didn't get my better hunring gear unril later.

You can also go in the other direction and put a cube of ice in whatever size plastic bag you want the target to be. The cube will cool everything inside the bag and holds up a good while. I did manage to hit the ice cube twice in a row with my Apex XD50A at 100 yds. Fun to watch the splatter on the backer.

Ice is another good one. Doesn't have to be hot to see it. Extra cold shows up good too. You'll get there. It's takes some getting used to compared to a regular scope.

Hey Charlie, did you ever get your Thermal sighted in? How did it go?

I did... Decided 50 yds was going to be my mark. Went to the stand, but no participants that night.

I'll be back out in a week or two.

Charlie

In hot weather I use a small piece of sponge or foam on the Bull and saturate it with the butane (or whatever it is) in "Canned air" like you use for cleaning a computer.