Thermal or NV

If you can only buy one, which is it? I am wanting to start doing some hog hunting at night but not sure which I want to get. I am thinking thermal. Also, what is a good entry level unit for either? I want the best bang for buck I can get.

If you want to get into thermal and need the best bang for your buck, the new Pulsar APEX scopes may be the best entry into the market. They are not out just yet, but should be soon and will be offered around $3000.

The only problem with getting a rifle scope, however, is that you have to do a lot of searching/looking with your rifle which many feel is an unsafe practice. If you agree, then you may want to go with a less expensive thermal handheld and then an inexpensive rifle scope such as a digital scope for actual shooting (not searching).

Maybe some salient questions at this time might be, how much can you spend? How far do you plan on shooting? What sort of environment will you be hunting?

You can get into NV a lot cheaper than thermal. You will get great results from both. What you have to decide is whether the gun will be a dedicated night time hunting rifle only.

Thermal is horrible to try and use during the day. It just won't work. But if you have a rifle that you only want to shoot at night that's perfect. I own thermal and 2 NV and much prefer the NV. I have the ATN PS28-CGT. It fits on the front of your traditional scope and turns it into a NV scope. No need to sight it in or anything. You can then use it on any rifle that you own instead of dedicating it to a particular gun. Runs about $2000.00.

Capt Craig, you say it fits on the front of a regular scope. I need more info. Does it fit onto the scope itself or does it have to be mounted on a rail in front of the scope?

You can do it either way. I prefer to mount directly on my scope for both bolt action and AR. No extended rail system is necessary

There is a cup that you slide over the front of the scope and tighten. it securely holds the add-on up to 308. If you are shooting anything bigger a rail would be helpful but not required

This just isn't so. I don't know what you have, but I've used a lot of different thermal products during the day and they all work well.

All modalities have strengths and weaknesses, but in general, on most days, thermal is excellent.

For the OP, your budget determines your options. If you can make it at least $2,500.00, many folks opt for a handheld thermal spotter and digital scope.

I own the ATN ThOR color thermal. When the weather is warm the trees and ground and animals all put out a almost identical heat signature. In winter on cold days you can pick up an ok body temp off an animal in the daytime.

It is not nearly as accurate as shooting a traditional scope in the daytime. You say you have used a lot of Thermals, which one do you own? In the daytime, especially warmer days the only way to sight in a thermal is to shoot at bottles of frozen water, you can't use a standard temp/air temp item it won't give you a unique temp signature that stands out. We use the water turned on it's side looking at the base of the bottle to get an approx 3" circle in order to establish a fairly tight zero.

I can promise you that no thermal will do in the daytime what a traditional scope can for accuracy.

At night with cooler ambient air temps and depending on really cool weather, the thermal will pick up heat signatures at 1000 yards depending on the size of the object. At 300 yards you can generally tell what the animal is.

The night vision is best at 150 yards or less and needs either ambient light or a feeder light or a IR light mounted on the scope to assist in brightening the target.

I spend 3 or 4 nights a week every week in the field hunting or guiding a client. My use of these items is extensive in the last four years.

you can hunt just fine with thermal during day, just switch to white hot or black hot

ATN PS28 that clips on the scope didn't seem to work well for one of my customers;
scope falls off after second shot, he was shooting a Winchester 70 Stealth .308
Too much recoil for the slippery plastic clamp. He is buying a Ruger AR-10, Zeiss 4x12
to use with his clip on

you can pick out 'hot' targets hiding behind trees/leaves that normal night vision can't.
I shot a hog this way that my night vision was not able to pick up. So, if you have about
$3000+ to spend, get a Thermal.

If the PS fell off, he didn't have it adjust correctly. We have used it up to 7mm mag without it falling off. The various size rings have to be chosen correctly. The clamp is metal with a plastic liner ring that fits between the mount and the scope to prevent scratches.

Cabo, which thermal scope do you own?

I would say depending on the terrain you hunt...

Wide open fields vs wooded/thick

We run guided hunts on a wide variety of terrain. We have both but thermal is king for all night hunting, you don't have to shoot with the thermal scoped gun, just use it for spotting.

We use a thermal scope (Thor 336) as a hand held spotting scope but it's zeroed in for a gun sitting in my gun rack on the back of the ATV, that way we can clip it on and shoot or let clients shoot with another weapon/scope setup and/or light (Depending on preference)

Thermal is no good in high humidity or rain, it still works but it can be really bad.

I don't use my thermal (or NV) during the day at all, we have several other weapons with scopes/eotechs etc for daytime hunting. I think the quality is pretty poor during the day.

Most of our weapons are 223 or 300BLK but we do have a few 308s. 5 of them are ARs. Some I have a zeroed scope or eotech AND a zeroed Thermal/NV so I can swap for day vs night hunts.

-Matt

ATN Thor 3x 30mm , 4.5x 50mm

I know what you mean. I could barely make out the hogs here at 4:30 PM earlier this week...



This hog was taken right at sundown. You can't hardly see it.



The first hog here was also just about invisible at two hours before sundown.



Despite having such handicaps, I have managed to get a few hogs. I guess I just got lucky.

"When the weather is warm the trees and ground and animals all put out a almost identical heat signature. In winter on cold days you can pick up an ok body temp off an animal in the daytime."

Thanks Double, that proved my point perfectly. Thermal is horrible in the day time (as I said) when the trees and ground and animals all share nearly the same temp. Which is why I said it is better when temps are cooler. Your video was taken in February and it was cool enough that you were wearing a heavy jacket. The video was not taken in summer.

Well then, your statement that thermal is horrible is daytime is just plain wrong. It isn't a day/night issue, now is it? When you make sweepingly absolutely statements, they are usually wrong, as in this case.

I've worked on Aircraft thermal night vision for almost 29 years. With lower grade or older systems FLIR/thermal inversion can cause a problem. However this is normally only twice a day. Once when the temperatures are coming up and once when they are dropping. Typically early in the morning and after sunset. Now if your looking at foliage ie tress where all you see is leaves, naturally the leaves will all be the same temperature. The picture will looked washed out. It's possible that heavy haired/furry animals will have the same surface temperature but not likely. Double Naught Spy's statement that thermal is horrible in daytime is just plain wrong would be correct. You just have to be aware of FLIR/thermal inversion and it's effects and you'll be fine. Perhaps if you change the angle in which you're looking at an area you'll see more stuff. ie get a little elevation. FLIR can't see through a physical barrier. Glass is a physical barrier by the way. The same as a fog is.

Thermal if you can afford.

As far as I know, all the Thors are color, no reason to deliniate.



Currently, I own a 640, 5X, and as spotters an ATN OTS 6X and Pulsar HD38. I have used pretty much all of the FLIR RS series. Not a fan....and have used an Armasight Zeus. Otherwise, I have looked through just about everything on the market. I have an IR Defense 640, 2.5X on order, but holding until some of the firmware is corrected.



So it is bad on a "warm" day and just OK on a cold day. If so, why would anybody buy one...particularly at the price? I mean, really. Sounds like you struggle with it. I don't. Hot rocks and wood on the ground seldom sprout legs and move. I have sat in a blind watching a tree line on a hot fall Texas day. Couldn't see a thing with day optics. Flipped the thermal spotter up and clear as a bell a line of deer are walking down a trail just inside the tree line. Without thermal I would never have known they were there.




But that wasn't the original point was it? You said thermal couldn't be used during the day at all which is simply untrue, period. A good day optic can take animals at very long ranges. Well beyond what 90% of hunters are capable of...but you aren't using that optic with your Gen CGT clip on either....are you? So, in all honesty I'd bet most of your shots are within 100 yards and that very few exceed 200 yards. All within the range of a decent thermal, certainly a 640, 5X. I do only head shots and can do it with thermal with no problem at those ranges....day or night.



Dear Lord... Wrong again. Frozen bottles of water are not the only way. Ever try hand warmers? They work great, are cheap and store very nicely for long periods. No muss, no fuss. A fairly tight group? 3 inches? Dang son.



A huge difference is that because night vision is limited on contrast and you will miss quite a lot that you see with no problem with thermal...particularly with a CGT product. The specs on that look like a lower end Gen II, if that. Many folks use thermal spotters to find the animals in the first place. Many of us have experienced hunting with people that have only night vision and they can't spot the animal we plainly see with thermal.

All the modalities have strengths and weaknesses. Weighing those, give me thermal.



No one else hunts regularly on this hunting site....just you.

To the OP...again...your budget will determine what you can do. A thermal spotter is an absolute game changer.

I guess I didn't realize how expensive these units run. I was thinking like $500 max, but obviously I need to do some research. Thermal seems like it would be more useful in my situation. Probably no shots longer than 150 yards, mostly wooded area with a few meadows. We have feeders setup also.

Well then, I would suggest the Sightmark Photon XT digital scope...and add an aftermarket IR when you save a little more.

I can save however much is necessary for a decent setup. I will probably use it maybe 10 times per year so I don't need the best or most advanced setup. I just want to be able to see them at night and within 100 yards of the feeder.

If you can only afford one the decision should be based on what your hunting area is. If you have long open fields to scan get a thermal. If you are scanning areas less than 300 yards get a good nv. You get what you pay for and ask the dealer if the scope can handle the rifle you are shooting. PM me if you want the number to a guy I consider an expert based on his years of experience and arsenal.

What aftermarket IR would you suggest he buy?

(Ok, it's for me, didn't want to hijack his thread) I want something better than my ATN ir 850

I like the UNV 20 IR, but there are others that do well also. The XT really lights up with a good IR...

What does adding the IR light do? Does it just make the image inside the scope brighter without alerting the hogs by using a regular flashlight?

The XT comes with an onboard IR illuminator. It is OK, but a stronger, more powerful aftermarket IR helps the scope to have a much clearer image for a longer distance. They are basically a must have addition. Most of the illuminators people buy are 850nm which is invisible to the human eye. An IR illuminator does not give off a beam of light that you can see like a regular flashlight. However, looking back from down range you can see the glow of the light. It has been cussed and discussed all over the internet about what the animals see. Many believe they don't see the color, but they see something...the movement of the light at the least...or maybe a "presence".

I like thermal over NV .. but that is just my opinion. I do have both.

For $500 it's hard to beat the Photon XT.

I have the Photon 3.5X which is the predecessor to the XT. I also have the UNV 20 illuminator, and personally I find the on-board illuminator on the Photon is sufficient for nearly all of my needs. I'm typically not taking shots over about 80 yards or so, 120 is probably the max.

Where the Photon really works well is on cloudless nights when the moon is at a quarter or better. You don't even need the illumination. Also, about an hour before sunrise the sky is bright enough to view pretty long distances without additional illumination. When the wind is favorable, I can sneak up to within 60 yards of a hog without any chance of being spotted using the Photon.

I had an old timer tell me once that they don't see color but they do see contrast. Seemed to make sense the way he described it.

Not related but I have to agree with this.

Blanket statements can be misleading because they seldom are true.

When someone is asking advice before they plop down a large sum of their money (relative of course) that they had to do something in many cases they would prefer not to do to earn it, I believe it is a disservice to remain silent just to go along to get along. Granted it can be done factually and without personally attacking, but I feel it should be done.

Money is tight and only getting tighter.

Try the T67 Illuminator (massive lens). It will amaze you with how far it will stretch the range, although you will still be constrained by the inherent limitations of the Photon 3.5's (or XT's) low resolution, but it will help compensate for it's marginal light gathering ability.

The Evola store should be up by March first and you can pick it up for less than $50 delivered. It took just over 2 weeks for mine to be delivered. EVOLA 809 Grande T67 Night Hunter Night Vision IR Infrared Light

To the OP: With the Photon remember to price in some sort of mount or if you are fairly handy and can cope with the bulk and wires you can make one yourself... and be done for around $300 - $350.

LINK to what I used to make one: LINK to homemade. The last post in the thread had one fellow who said he spent only around $225 to build his.


I hope this helps.

I've had deer walk towards me trying to figure out what was out there, you would just have to witness it to see how their body language and head movement was that makes me believe this. So I do believe they can see something.

The 940nm light has less detection distance but I have been told is invisible to critters. I have bought a T50 from MrKingLouie and it is in route so I shall see.

I have to admit I haven't hunted with the 940's near as much because I couldn't live with the detection range.

You are right. Something goes on and you know the animal knows something is there. Folks sometimes have to experience it in order to get it.

What kind of mount would be required? I have a Burris P.E.P.R mount for my long range AR 15 setup right now. Would that work?

Yes. That is what I used. I reversed it from normal b/c of the limited eye relief and I get a cheek weld like normal.

Same here.

Kind of a difficult question. What kind of hunting are you going to be doing? If you are going to be sitting in a blind watching a feeder or fed senderos within 100 yrds there are a lot of options to choose from that are less expensive that will work pretty decent. If you are going to be stalking and searching for pigs all night up to and over 1,000 yrds in the farm country you can't do that with a cheap unit from Academy very well. Nowadays I/we prefer using a handheld thermal scanner. Gen 3 is also great if there is enough moonlight especially used while driving lights out. Either of these devices work well for continuous looking and are not too hard on your eyes. Digital night vision is hard on your eyes and no good for continuous scanning. I prefer the thermal scanner over the Gen 3 hands down. When it comes to shooting I prefer the Pulsar N750. Also have used several X-Mark's but having issues and not really impressed, nothing like the Pulsar IMO. Have Pulsar monoculars that also work well but as with any magnified digital night vision it sucks in the brush country because of the IR reflection. In open country they are great. So, for all around use I would recommend a handheld thermal scanner (like the Opgal-Therm App that clamps onto a phone - best to have a dedicated phone) and the Pulsar N750 mounted on your rifle when it's trigger time. The clarity of the Opgal is very impressive, the only downside is it emits light from the phone while you are scanning so scan.... turn off.... scan....pigs/turn off....move in with the digital monocular and N750 on the rifle. Works pretty well for us po rednecks. Many a pig have went night night using this equipment. If I could afford more thermal optics I would have them, but this method does the job and works for now.

Not really going to be stalking. As I stated earlier, we have feeders setup and will sit about 50-150 yards away. Most of the time there will be a clear shot with minimal brush, occasionally will make some shots in the woods if the need arises.

I got a factory refurbished N750 from pulsar complete with video cam for $1200. Love it... and that is about all the money I'm going to spend on hogs.

A big + 1 on that!

That's one way of looking at it and quite functional. I look at it as how much money I am spending on me having a good time.

Everyone has different wants, needs, desires, economics, etc. What is expensive to one isn't to another, what seems reasonable to one isn't to another. No right, no wrong. Just different lives and circumstances.

What is the advantage, and $750 more, of the N750 over the Photon XT?

I will tell you the differences however only you can be the judge if the cost difference is justified.

Digisight has adjustable contrast in addition to brightness which allows for discernably better image quality (tuned image).

Digisight is a more robustly constructed unit than PhotonXT - compare the battery caps as an example .

Digisight has digital zoom and a higher resolution viewing screen .

Digisight has a one piece mount included .

Digisight has slightly better ergonomics for focus control .

Note - This is off the top of my head, double check me via specifications on screen resolution but I am fairly confident in the info.

Happy Hunting~!~

If your willing to hold out you can get a N750 for under a $1000. Now for a thermal, I bought a FLIR E4 for $600 and updated the firmware. It's now a 320 x 240 scanner with 8x digital zoom. It's shape is a little awkward but I can live with it at that price. For scanning fields it does a descent job, now granted it's not on the same level as a dedicated handheld unit.

Guys, it's all about the budget. I have looked through Gen3 night vision scopes that are so incredible that it would put the low end thermals to shame - but that unit was $15,000!!! I have both regular NV and Thermal - I don't have the digital night vision like the NV-750, but I know friends that have them and have used them. I was going to get a NV-750, but came into some extra money and opted for a $5000 thermal (ATN) weapons sight.

It is simply AWESOME - and anyone who says you can't use them during the day either has no idea what they are talking about, or has a very cheap low-end thermal. Mine works just fine picking out pigs in 110 temps in south texas in August at 2pm!! Is the definition as good as cool day, well frankly no - but it works enough to get the job done. Mine also sees through fog and rain like it's not there, unless it is very heavy.

But thermal isn't perfect - it can't see antlers unless they are in velvet - then they glow. They are somewhat challenging to sight-in, and you are usually limited in accuracy to your thermal target (but soon there will be targets with thermal gridlines and that problem will disappear). During the day, they cannot compete with accuracy at a distance, thermal shooting is limited to 150 yards or so - even though my sight can pick out man-sized targets at 800 yards. Anyone who tells you they are thermal hunting at 200-300 yards is most likely a liar and braggart. Since animals radiate heat, targets sometimes appear "fuzzy" because the heat aura extends beyond the animals skin for an inch or two. While identifying a pig is easy, telling the difference between and an axis or whitetail through a thermal at night is very hard. It can be done, and I've gotten pretty good at it, but it is mostly inference - wedge shape of axis bodies, how axis move vs whitetail, and typically behavior. For example, a group of 20-25 deer coming in together in a tight group are most likely axis. However, as good as I have become identifying, still not comfortable pulling the trigger on exotics at night/low-light situation. (although I might if I was meat hunting axis - but a mistake could be very costly).

I have noticed that the viewing angle can effect thermals for some reason - maybe temp inversions. But sometimes I can scan a pasture and it is very clear and good contrast except when I am pointing in a certain direction. Move over 100 yards, and the problem disappears. It's kinda quirky, but usually not a problem. I have also noticed that sometime pointing directly at target is not as clear as holding over the target a little higher. Not a problem with animals, which are bright and distinct - but inanimate objects like fence lines, etc.

On the other hand, thermals do things that you can only dream of with regular or digital night vision. Even in bright daylight, I can make a quick scan with the thermal and pick out animals in the brush that cannot been seen in bright daylight, let alone a night vision device. You can see them WAY back up in the brush - or see them 400-500 yards away (think spotting mule deer in west texas).

Performance of the regular night vision is largely dependant on the IR illuminator you have. Most that come with the unit are POS, and having another secondary illuminator ALWAYS helps. There are two types of frequencies available with the IR illuminator. The low frequency ones "light up" things better - like a flashlight - but they DEFINITELY can be seen by animals. The higher frequency (if I remember correct - 940nm units) are completely invisible, but do not "light up" targets as well (at least, that is my experience trying out about a dozen different units - and I have lots of used units for sale if anyone is interested).

And while we at it - while it is somewhat comical to hear thermal doesn't work in daylight - I can PROMISE you the GEN1,2, or 3 don't work in daylight. And if you try, you'll burn the unit out - even with the "pinpoint" covers on.

The advantage of the NV-550 and NV-750 units is that they will work in both daylight and night at a price point that is much more reachable to the average Joe. IMHO, they are good choice if you can't afford thermal. But if you got the bucks, thermal is THE way to go.

I HIGHLY recommend, and I can't stress this enough, to contact Tyler at UltimateNightVision.com - not only is he a member of this board, but his knowledge or all things night vision is surpassed by none. He has a wide variety from low-end GEN1 to the most sophisticated and latest thermals. He knows his stuff, and knows his product line - and, unless you are buying used, would be hard to beat on price - I know, I researched and scouted for 6 months before putting money down. Tyler worked with me, steered me in the right direction, was very easy to work with - and I found - and verified - I could trust everything he said.

If anyone is interested, you can check out a video I posted from this weekend on my FB page - just made it public.

I feel the same way about thermal ...

Another option that I did for a long time was to buy a cheap IR flood that runs off a 9V battery. Actually I got two.

I would turn them on and completely illuminate my "kill zone" around the feeder. Because they were IR, with naked eye the area looked completely black, but with even a cheapo GEN1 scope or monocular the entire area looked like it was under powerful street lights.

The advantage to this was that puny IR illuminators on the scope or handheld didn't have to strain to light up an area 100 yards away. 'Cuz none of them do that very well. Think of the difference of a hand-held flashlight from your blind - vs a set of halogen work lights set up right there at your feeder. It's that much a difference.

Another thing I did was get some old IR flash game cams that semi-worked. I set them to 'video' mode and set them up on trails leading into my area. When animals passed in front of them, and the IR went off (in video mode they stay on 10-30 second vs a flash) they lit up the area in front of the cam. When keeping an lookout with my cheap $149 Night Owl monocular (actually pretty good unit for the price), I could see animals approaching along the trails - would get these bright "light explosions" from the game cam which were highly visible. I see the "flash" go off 300 yards, then 200 yards, then 100 yards - and I knew something wicked this way comes.

But honestly, it's all overkill for pig hunting. Unless the night is very dark, your eyes will sharpen up enough to see a pig under the feeder 100-150 yards away - then a basic red/green light attached to your regular scope is all you need to light em up and take a shot. I know one guy who just uses a high quality scope (think Leoupold, Swaro, Zeiss) with a illuminated reticle - like the Leo Firedot. Some of those scope do such a good job with light gathering that if you have any moon at all, you can see well enough to make out the outline, and the illuminated reticle on the head and - game over.

My Swaro's are good enough that on a full moon, I don't need any kind of light at all - the crosshairs are tough to see though against a dark pig if no illuminated reticle.

Heck, most of the time the pigs wouldn't even spook away if you hit them with a Q-beam if they were hungry.

But then, I couldn't justify buying all the cool toys.