Open Carry

Open Carry passes in Texas 20 to 11 beginning 1-1-2016. What says THF?

Meh. To each their own, I guess.

Bout time! I'll still carry concealed but we should have the option

I'm probably the only CHL holder around who dislikes open carry.

Worst case: There's always some crazy guy who will fly off the handle and steal your sidearm and start shooting.

Best case: Openly packing heat in a restaurant, store, college, etc. makes others uneasy and can intimidate.

Concealed carry just allows you to blend in and bothers no one. And CC allows the same personal defense protection as OP.

But I'm just a voice in the wilderness, it seems.

Dawaba, I just don't see it happening, either one of your scenarios. Almost every other state in the union has open carry of some sort and no mass pandemonium has ensued.

I'm with you, I will still CC but at least there will not be an issue if I fail to conceal by accident.

It's only passed the Senate, it's now at the house, if it passes the house then it will go to Gov Abbott's desk

with 2/3 of the house being Republicans, I believe it will pass easily..
With that said though, MEH.

I am with you.

BUT, you do see the irony with ending your post with 'MEH' and your sig block reference to apathy, right?

It also states that open carry will only be allowed by current CHL holders, not general public. Plus has the provision for business to restrict the open carry by proper signage but I have not figured out what they mean by proper signage, will it be just the standard 30.06 or will they create a new sign for restricting OC but still allowing CC?

How will they enforce it? Can LE legally check someone just because they are openly carrying a sidearm? Can they check you if you "might" be breaking the law? Similar to scenarios we've seen before.

I like GLC'a comment as far as if it accidentally come visible, at least you're covered.

If it passes it will be effective 9/1/15.

I'm with you. It's going to be a bad day when I take a report of an armed robbery where he took the gun out of the victims holster because they had their hands full and left the gun exposed and unprotected.

Because this happens with such frequency in the 44 states that allow open carry? But thank you for thinking for all of the plebs. You obviously know best for everyone.

I figure thieves break into homes to steal guns. I have a CHL but I will never open carry because I don't want to get clubbed over the head by a punk that just wants my gun.
And I tend to think that the whole open carry thing is going to take "short man syndrome" to a whole new level. Right up there with the guys (some guys, clearly not all) that have a full front end bumper replacement on there truck, and think they are suddenly a bad a__.
It just makes me think that you are picking a fight if you have an open gun. When the testosterone gets pumping, I bet some will challenge you, just daring you to pull it on them.
But I also think you have a right to open carry already, seems odd to think that we are making a law that says you can have the rights that the Constitution already gave you.

Not possible. The experts of THF have informedme multiple times that the open carry d-bags have made the prospect of open carry being voted in an impossibility... Then again, they are the same folks crying about blood in the streets, even though Texas is 1 of 6 states that don't allow open carry, and there have been no incidents of blood in the streets in all of the other 44 states that have open carry.

Yep, those other 44 states must have blood in the streets and folks getting their weapons stolen off their hip at every turn

I'm all for it. I don't have to change a thing with my carry, but if I wonder into a 7-11 to get ice for a fresh killed hog, I don't have to remove my sidearm.

No worries about failing to conceal either, that's my main thing.

AND... For crying out loud, use a secure holster that can't be yanked on successfully if you open carry. That's just common sense. OOOHHH, now I see a problem...

I'm all for it so long as the signage is different for open carry. If the signage is 30.06 we will see a lot more place that put it up due to open carry.

It will call for heightened situational awareness on the part of the person carrying. Open carry also makes one a target because you are definitely drawing attention to yourself, unless of course you are just one unbelievably bad azz gunfighter.

Perhaps the news report that I watched on Channel 13 in Houston was incorrect, but it said that an additional permit, above the CHL, would be required, for an additional fee I'm sure. The report also mentioned an additional training course being required.

Hope it was wrong.

A benefit that I see with open carry is that private businesses and events could provide their own security.

After all, a private citizen, when on private property, probably has fewer restrictions on their legal use of a firearm, than an LEO.

Well, can you show me where in another open carry state the peeps have a target because they had a handgun on their hip? Like I said, if it was as big of an issue as some of y'all seem to think it will be, then the majority of the state's must have all sorts of carnage caused by it, so, show me

I hope it's not. The CHL classes don't cover near enough, and the qualification is a joke. My SIL couldn't rack the slide on my pistol, and still passed.

Certainly not against open carry, even tho it's not for me. My husband has no idea what contents are laying in the bottom of my purse. Why in hell would I let a stranger know what's on my hip.

JMO

Very WELL said Ma'am

I couldn't figure out how to embed a article so here it is from the Austin American Statesman. No additional License, Fee, or Training, only making brief mention of proper retention holsters during the CHL class.



The Texas Senate gave initial approval Monday to a bill allowing for holstered handguns to be openly carried, turning aside a flurry of amendments from Democrats in a series of party-line votes.

On a 20-11 vote, the Senate’s Republicans approved Senate Bill 17, with final passage likely for Tuesday, the same day a House committee will hold its first public hearing on a similar measure.

Also Tuesday, the Senate will hold its initial vote on a second gun measure, allowing concealed handguns in college and university buildings.

SB 17 would allow those with a concealed handgun license to openly carry firearms in a shoulder or belt holster. The bill also would let business owners forbid openly carried handguns on their premises by displaying prominent signs.

“We have about 800,000 concealed handgun license holders in this state that I feel like have been vetted and trained and can be trusted,” said the bill’s author, Sen. Craig Estes, R-Wichita Falls.

“I believe in freedom,” Estes said. “The question we should ask is not why can they (openly carry handguns), but why are they forbidden from doing this?”

Sen. John Whitmire, D-Houston, said the bill was a solution in search of a problem.

“What are you really trying to accomplish today? Help me,” Whitmire said. “The really, really average Texan does not understand the relevance of your proposals (or see) how they would make Texas a better place to work or live.”

The 20 Senate Republicans turned aside Democratic amendments that would have banned openly carried guns in city halls or within 1,000 feet of public parks. Democrats also failed in attempts to allow cities and counties to opt in or opt out of the state’s open carry law or to require those openly carrying handguns to also display their concealed handgun license as an aid to police officers.

Whitmire offered an amendment banning open carry in the Capitol, warning that the large number of schoolchildren who visit would be put at risk if a “disturbed person” grabbed an available gun from a holster.

“It’s not if it’s going to happen, it’s when,” Whitmire said, his voice rising to a shout. “You’re making a huge mistake.”

Calling Whitmire’s fears far-fetched, Estes said he did not want to exempt the Capitol from a law that other government offices will have to follow.

Monday’s vote came on the first day the Senate could vote on a bill that had not been declared an emergency by Gov. Greg Abbott.

Estes amended his bill to delay implementation until Jan. 1, 2016, saying the Department of Public safety asked for the four-month delay to help it prepare.

Estes also accepted amendments from Sen. Judith Zaffirini, D-Laredo, requiring that handgun license instruction include information on retention holsters and techniques to securely carry handguns, and one from Sen. Joan Huffman, R-Houston, clarifying that open carry would not be allowed in buildings or public areas of college campuses.

SB 17 would not change the requirements to receive a concealed handgun license, and a current license holder would not have to reapply to openly carry a handgun.

am very upset thiers so much mixed feelings from gun owners and sportmen, texas is one of only a handful of states that did not have some form of open carry. I was not proud that my state was named with the other ones listed. I agree the best method is concealed, but that should be up to each person, as some one else said at least now if your handgun is shown by mistake u want be in trouble as it is now printing could get you in trouble. As for you folks with mixed or out right against open carry do a little research on what states have open carry of some type and ones that totally ban it.

Eddie Ray Routh, possibly?

BTW, what is a pleb? Short for plebiscite, maybe? Not familiar with that word....

Am I apathetic regarding this specific topic ? Perhaps. I am a CHL holder. My "meh" comment was meant to shorten a post which would have went something like this: "Being a CHL holder now, I don't believe I would partake in the ability to open carry. It makes me no difference if they pass it or not. I don't see myself doing it."
But since I have now typed it anyway, I suppose I should have just typed it out initially.

Once the novelty of it wears off in a few weeks, the whole state will say one big MEH. I doubt you will personally see more than 2 or 3 people a year open carrying unless you work at a gun shop or a range.

Who would be the first person to be shot by some nut at a location. I say he shoots the open carry guy to eliminate his threat.

What does Routh have to do with open carry? He killed people while at a shooting lane in the gun range, didn't he? Are you suggesting that guns be banned at the shooting lanes of the gun range?

And pleb is short for plebeian. Common folk.

I'm all for options, I can't say with a certainty that I would partake in this one though.

Ah, plebian makes better sense than plebiscite. I learned something new.

I had earlier opined that some crazy citizen could grab an openly carried sidearm from the holster and start blazing away. My reference to Routh is that it was possible that he may have snatched Kyle's gun from the holster and used it on Littlefield and Kyle. Or maybe not.

FYI, the Dallas Morning News, probably the most conservative large city newspaper in the country, wrote in today's editorial a scathing denouncement of open carry. The DMN noted that they have always supported the Second Ammendment and have always supported concealed carry. But this open carry idea harkens back to "Frontier Texas" and is "Rootin' Tootin' Madness." I kinda agree.

I just love the guys on here that don't like the idea of open carry themselves so they think it should not be legal for everyone else. LOL

That is straight from the liberal playbook.

Actually texretvet, it is straight from the First Amendment playbook, which shockingly, is just as important as the Second. Civil discourse, even disagreement, is healthy among people who are otherwise like-minded. And just because perhaps 80% of us support open carry, the 20% of us who do not have NO mandate to succumb to the shout-down of the rabble mob.

Even Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in the affirming opinion in Heller vs District of Columbia (undeniably a great victory for us gun owners) that the Second Amendment right is NOT unlimited. Local government has a right to restrict gun access to felons or the mentally ill. Government has a right to restrict carry in sensitive places, like schools, courtrooms, and government buildings. And government has a right to restrict sales of any weapons that aren't in "common use". And government, at least on the local level, is a servant of the individual citizen.

We may disagree on the finer points of the Second Amendment, but I will hunt hogs or eat BBQ with the most strident open carry proponent. And have a great time. Every time.

X2

I would like to see all of the gunowners not being divided on a gun issue. United we stand, divided we fall (against the liberals).

Someone chooses to conceal all the time, fine, that is their right to do so. Someone else chooses to "mostly conceal", fine that is their right to do so. And finally another person decides it is in his best interest, in a certain situation to open carry, again, his right. Why decide you don't want to do something, so everyone else can't do it either?

I will stay concealed, or mostly concealed, but I'm not going to tell another person they have to conceal because I choose to.

I just speak from experience. I was a uniform police officer for 18 years, and have been plainclothes for the past nine. How many years have you open carried? I know what the difference is between open carry and concealed. If you don't think wearing that gun for all the world to see doesn't change how you handle yourself in a public place you are naive. If it doesn't change how you handle yourself you are just being foolish. I'm glad Texas has passed this law and I support it 100%. You do need to make adjustments to daily activities though.

Choctaw, I wasn't questioning you years of being an LEO I knew you were already, I asked about the other 44 states having folks who open carry get picked off because they're open carrying?

As for the rest of your post, I wholeheartedly agree.

My fear exactly! Concealed is out of sight, out of mind. I believe many businesses don't realize how many guns walk in and out of their doors each day. Once they do, I think many more will post signs.

Does anyone know which states make up this 44 number I keep hearing? I have travelled in all but 3 states in America and have never seen anyone open carry except in Alaska, Montana and Wyoming. Been around hundreds of thousands of people and have only seen LEO's open carry in the other states.

Open Carry Map

Just incase you don't click links

My question is this. Why can we not sue these businesses for violating our constitutional rights? If I put a sign up in front of my business that says "No Muslims" or "No Catholics" then you will see me on the news and in court for violating their 1st Amendment rights. Why is it ok for businesses to violate our 2nd Amendment rights?

Because our right to keep and bear arms isn't spelled out explicitly. And it's one of those "rights" that they feel the need to limit, based on its vagueness, instead of letting it run rampant, based on its vagueness. Therefore they say "if it's not spelled out, it doesn't cover it"... And yes, they use that interpretation at their will, depending on the "right" in question.

"Because our right to keep and bear arms isn't spelled out explicitly..."

Well, that certainly isn't true at all. The Second Amendment is very clear and explicit about our right to bear arms. They spelled it out like this: "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

That's crystal clear to me. And it was crystal clear to SCOTUS when they ruled as much in District of Columbia v. Heller, where the court held that "the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

However, I still believe that a private business has the right to allow or not allow you to bring your guns on their property, because I believe in private property rights and free markets. The right to bear arms shall not be restricted by the government, either through law or regulation. However, it can be restricted by private individuals and businesses. It's an important distinction.

So do yall agree with S#s on a gun? Kinda stepping into that shall not be infringed thing

Best book I've ever read re gun rights is The second Amendment Primer by Les Adams. It goes into the history of weapons laws from early Europe, the Constitution and US historical Legislation.

It's pretty inexpensive and I highly recommend it.

They come in handy when one has been stolen.

Well it looks like it's gonna happen!! Final Passage in the Senate tonight and it's on to the Governor for his signature!

Not so fast. Still needs house concurrence vote.

OC is dead this session.

Do you have a link. I looked and have not seen anything saying that.

Thank you.

Saw the vote. Maybe I should rephrase; it's all but officially dead.

Yup

Once again managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Theres still a chance OC will pass. If the conference committee cannot come to agreement it will go back to the house and may pass in that vote. If the conference committee does come to agreement then its back to the Senate where it will probably die.

Lawmakers acknowledged that while it landed, the blow was glancing at best. "I have no doubt that at the end of the day there will be an open carry bill passed in the 84th session," said bill sponsor Rep. Larry Phillips, R-Sherman.


Rep. Poncho Nevarez, the only Democrat of the House's conferees, said he thinks there's little he and other open carry opponents can do because the bill itself enjoys such universal support among Republicans. If the 10-member conference committee fails to come to an agreement, he said, the House will accept the Huffines amendment rather than kill the bill all together.

"I wish it was a death knell, but I know differently," said Nevarez, D-Eagle Pass. "I think we're past the ideal outcome

We really need to run the damn democrats out of the state. Trouble is we keep bringing in more and more from yankee land, and worse, California.

If this does not pass this session it won't be because of democrats. A lot of republicans voted against concurrence that would have sent it straight to the gov. instead of to the conference committee.

No, you don't make yourself a target.

I really wish these internet myths would die a violent death, because they are old and worn out and just flat out not true.

tolen from AR15.com, not my work just passing it along



For those of you not following the Open Carry political saga in Texas closely, let me give a short summary. Recently, the House voted to send the Open Carry bill to the Senate with the Dutton Amendment (shown below). The Senate stripped out the Dutton Amendment in Committee; but Senator Huffhines later proposed an ALMOST identical amendment from the floor that was accepted.
The two amendments are posted below for your comparison:

quote:
Dutton Amendment
Sec. 411.2049. CERTAIN INVESTIGATORY STOPS AND INQUIRIES PROHIBITED. A peace officer may not make an investigatory stop or other temporary detention to inquire as to whether a person possesses a handgun license solely because the person is carrying a partially or wholly visible handgun carried in a shoulder or belt holster.



quote:
Huffhines Amendment
Sec. 411.2049. CERTAIN INVESTIGATORY STOPS AND INQUIRIES PROHIBITED. A peace officer may not make an investigatory stop or other temporary detention to inquire as to a person's possession of a handgun license solely because the person is carrying in a shoulder or belt holster a partially or wholly visible handgun.



The following legislators voted YES for the Dutton Amendment, but when presented with damn near identical language in the Huffhines Amendment, voted NO and have put the passage of Open Carry in serious doubt. If you wish to question your legislator about this hypocrisy, I have done everything I know to do to make it easy for you. If you don't want to bother with what district you live in, I've listed the counties for a quicker reference. All you need to do is click on the email link. Please take just a moment of your time and get involved to ask these legislators why they were OK with the Dutton Amendment language but voted against the Huffhines Amendment language? And please share your responses with the rest of us.

Who is my Texas Representative and District?
Anderson, Charles Represents McLennan County District 56 Email
Ashby. Trent Angeline, Houston, Leon, Madison, San Augustine, Trinity Counties District 57 Email
Aycock, Jimmie Don Lampasas, Bell Counties District 54 Email
Bohac, Dwayne Harris County District 138 Email
Bonnen, Dennis Brazoria, Matagorda Counties District 25 Email
Bonnen, Greg Galveston County District 24 Email
Burkett, Cindy Dallas County District 113 Email
Cook, Bryan Anderson, Freestone, Hill, Navarro Counties District 8 Email
Dale, Tony Williamson County District 136 Email
Davis, Sarah Harris County District 134 Email
Farney, Marsha Burnet, Milam, Williamson Counties District 20 Email
Fletcher, Allan Harris County District 130 Email
Frank, James Archer, Baylor, Clay, Foard, Know, Wichita Counties District 69 Email
Galindo Bexar County District 117 Email
Geren Tarrant County District 99 Email If there is any Representative on this list who deserves a break, it may be Rep. Geren as he sponsored the NFA Shall Sign bill. However, if I lived in his district, I would still want to know why he voted as he did.
Goldman, Craig Tarrant County District 97 Email
Gonzales, Larry Williamson County District 52 Email
Harless, Patricia Harris County District 126 Email
Herrero, Abel Nueces County District 34 - Email
King, Ken Armstrong, Bailey, Briscoe, Castro, Cochran, Donley, Gray, Hale, Hansford, Hemphill, Hockley, Lamb, Lipscomb, Ochiltree, Roberts, Swisher, Yoakum Counties District 88 - Email
King, Phil Parker, Wise Counties District 61 - Email
Koop, Linda Dallas County District 102 - Email
Larson, Lyle Bexar County District 122 - Email
Meyer, Morgan Dallas County District 108 - Email
Miller, Doug Gillespie, Kendall, Comal Counties District 73 - Email
Miller, Rick Fort Bend County District 26 Email
Moody, Joe El Paso County District 78 - Email
Morrison, Geanie Aransas, Calhoun, DeWitt, Goliad, Refugio, Victoria Counties District 30 - Email
Murphy, Jim Harris County District 133 - Email
Pena, Gilbert Harris County District 144 - Email
Sheets, Kenneth Dallas County District 107 - Email
Sheffield, J. D. Erath, Comanche, McCulloch, Mills, Hamilton, Coryell, San Saba, Somvervell District 59 - Email
Smith, Wayne Harris County District 128 - Email
Smithee, John Dallam, Hartley, Oldham, Deaf Smith, Randall, Parmer District 86 - Email
Stephenson, Phil Fort Bend, Jackson, Wharton Counties District 85 - Email
Villaba, Jason Dallas County District 114 - Email
Zerwas, John Fort Bend County District 28 - Email

Please share this with other gunboards as well. I have a AR15.com/VBB friendly formatted document in Word I will be happy to share with anyone who wishes to repost this on other forums so you don't even have to do any work there either.

I speak from experience as well. I lived in Arizona for 6 years, which is a constitutional open carry (also concealed carry) state.

And I can tell you that carrying as a LEO is completely different than carrying as somebody choosing to open carry - you have different agendas, duties and responsibilities and it is very difficult to draw a true comparison between the two.

When I first moved from Texas to AZ, seeing somebody openly carry was strange to me - and frankly I didn't realize how restrictive Texas actually is with firearms until I moved to a place that had very few restrictions. Sure, I paid attention to the people I saw openly carrying - it was strange to me and kind of a novelty. But after a week or two, it became just another part of life really. The vast majority of open carrying was done in more rural areas, though it was common enough in downtown PHX that it wasn't massively out of place.

And of those open carrying, the vast majority of them were normal folks - in downtown, the people were wearing suits and ties and carrying briefcases. Not exactly something you freak out over. There were a couple of people that I saw that were questionable based on their looks, and sure, I kept them in the corner of my vision. But nothing happend. Open carriers were not attacked and ambushed by bad guys, they weren't sniped from across the street by bad guys, soccer moms didn't scream in panic and create mass hysteria at the sight of a firearm on somebody's hip. Basically - life went on as normal.

I didn't open carry every day - hell, I didn't conceal carry every day either. But having the option to carry how I wanted based on my dress, the temperature, where I was going, what I was doing, etc. was awful nice to have at my disposal.

If it were to pass here (I have my doubts), will there be businesses that brush up on their signage? Sure - there were when CCW passed as well. And yet we manage to continue living life every day without really much in the way of changes. And, like anything else, exposure to the unwashed masses is not a bad thing. In relatively short time frames people will become fairly desensitized to firearms and they become more accustomed to them as a part of life, and you move on.

Every single "what if" scenario spouted off by people on this thread and every other message board are the exact same "what if" scenarios that the lefites screamed as doom and gloom from the mountain tops when CCW was proposed and debated on. And we have collectively proved them to be exactly that - myth. Please don't perpetuate hypotheticals that are based in nothing more than wet panty hand wringing espoused primarily by those that have little to no experience on the actual subject at hand.

I know of several CHL holders who have done dumb things with their guns. It happens. There are plenty of documented examples of the "hypotheticals" being realized in all of the open carry states. All of you idiots who claim they never happen are as pathetic as the liberals who claim it will be anarchy and blood in the streets. I personally think it's unnecessary for me to have open carry when I can and prefer to carry concealed. But I also believe in less government restriction in all parts of my life including this area.

It passed. Gonna be signed into law.

Wrong.

It's near DDFD (Done, Done, F'n, Done)!

Link

The best part of the bill is that it reduces the penalty for not seeing a 30.06 sign from a class A misdemeanor to a class C. It will still be a class A if you are asked to leave and refuse.

It was all but dead the other day.