How does a lease institute game management rules?

I'm on a lease where the idea is to only shoot mature bucks which my understanding is at least 4.5 yrs and older. I believe there's potential to get 150" and better bucks on the lease and I'd like to see if we can get there but in order to do it I think everyone needs to be on the same page. Unfortunately this is where the breakdown is. We have three new guys this year that have hunted places that had no management guidelines and operated by the ole saying if it's brown it's down.

So far this year the below is what's been killed:
Basket 8 - don't know age
9pt - 2.5-3.5
9pt - 3.5
10pt - 3.5-4.5 - Beautiful buck with nice time length but not much on mass. Pencil 10 is how we identified him.
13pt - 3.5 We thought he had pretty nice potential. Not much time length. Scored 119.

We have very few bucks that are older than 3.5 because everyone is killing them and not letting them walk. I think when everyone got on things were explained and we're supposed to have discipline but when these guys see these bucks they simply can't/won't let them walk. I understand that some of these bucks are the best they've ever seen but if they keep killing them they will still be the best they've ever seen.

Thoughts?

You would either need good honest people that all wanted to participate or a lease contract.

How big a property how many hunters? Low fence 4 year old 150 inchers is probably not going to happen. Just saying don't set yourself up for disappointment, you need to have your expectations in line with what is practically achievable.

depends on where you are hunting as far as how old things will get anyway. If you are bordered by a bunch of shooters, then any management you do is for the neighbors benefit and not yours.

However, it could be easy to write in some rules for age class and have jaw bones sent off for ageing and stuff. Instituting a management program could be as simple as saying no bucks shot under 4years old or the person must pay double their lease fee...something like that makes people really question their shots. Might make some people mad, but to say you are on a place that wants to shoot mature deer and then have all the bucks shot be 2-3yo, makes no sense.

Who is the lease manager? IF it is not you then make sure he supports this management plan. Here is where it is going to get sticky- if you say the rule is to not shoot anything under 4.5 years old then you are going to have arguments over a buck killed where the lease member says he is 4.5 and the manager or whoever is to be the arbiter for age determination says it is 3.5. But the first thing is to meet with every lease member and provide all of them with a copy of the new lease rules showing the management plan and have everyone sign off that they have read and understood it. If you want, set a penalty for shooting one too young of either monetary or forfeiture of lease membership (or anything in between). Have this meeting as soon as the season is over so that anyone who isn't on board has time to find another lease and ya'll have time to fill openings.

Redchevy has a point, it depends on how big the lease is on how realistic your management goal is to reach. Folks that think they can manage a few hundred acres if it is LF are kidding themselves.

It sounds to me like y'all have some vague/not-in-stone guidelines and no lease manager/leader and no real enforcement.



This is good advice and the route I would take.

True. Its got to be a cooperative with your neighbors as well. Easier said than done but it can be done.

I'm not a fan of a blanket 4 year old minimum, but it is the much easier rout. Its going to cut back on shooting and there really is no reason to keep them all to 4 years old, there are definitely deer that are inferior, average, and superior when compared to their peers and I see no reason to keep the inferior around any longer than it takes to label them as such, say a 2 year old 4pt, a no brow 6 point, a 3 year old 8 with no tines longer than 2.5 inches etc. Scratching your trigger finger on a cull will keep people more patient for the good ones.

just because a place is low fence or just a few hundred acres doesnt mean you go w/ " if its brown its down philosophy" if you can't wait till the deer mature you are out. My rule is if you kill a "trophy" deer less than 5.5 years old or a deer thats not on the cull list, you loose you trophy the next year, basically you're on spike patrol. Our hunters know this prior to signing the lease so if the time comes for punishment, which it has, there is no belly aching.

They would be much better served on doe patrol if trying to manage a place for trophy bucks...depends on the area for sure, but most of texas should shoot more doe than spikes.

Deerhunter61, it has been my experience that a lot more hunters can talk about trophy management than can practice it. Regardless of the size of your lease you can't approach the neighbors before you get your own hunters in sync. Clear guidelines with clear repercussions and consistent adherence to the guidelines is where to start. If the new guys don't fit what your doing they need to go. Doesn't mean you don't like them, they just don't fit in. It sounds like the deer that were shot would have been trophys in 3 more years. It will take the replacement bucks in the womb seven years from now to possibly achieve trophy status. So they set you back 4 years. With that said, if the group is not going to do that and you want to hunt mature bucks you need to move on if the bucks are going to be killed before maturity. It takes a like minded group of hunters to consistently shoot mature low fence deer . Each lease is only as effective as their weakest trigger finger....more important than your "hit list" is a strictly adhered to "don't hit list".
Best of luck with your management endeavors

Get it in writing have everyone sign then you will have a management plan

Easy to set it up, but hard to actually implement.

Make it simple and just set one harvest age. Forget culls or defining them. Pointless at that point it’s a justification to use another buck tag.

Good luck.

Im not telling what to do, I'm answering his question of how do you enforce management on a lease, then gave him a specific example of what I do. I couldn't disagree more w your management advice but thats a separate topic but thanks anyway

Remember one thing, there may be people on the property next door, that are there to enjoy the few hours they can and do mot give a flip about your or anyone else's management plan. They go to have a few weekends of relaxation away from their normal work and city life. Some people are not going to turn deer hunting into a second "job" just to get a trophy.

if you shoot them then they for sure aint gona get older

1st thing is you have to have a manager or management committee. Someone has to enforce the rules.

If you're trying to get some age on them then I suggest a 1 buck limit for a year or 2. It would have to be a significant fine or break it your off type rule. Again, someone has to be willing to enforce it.

One big problem is actually identifying a true 4.5 or any age class. Several years ago 100 of the nation's best deer management biologist were given a test to age deer they had never seen before. 70 % failed the the test. Take it for what it's worth!!

Biggest issue with management right there. Most people cannot age deer on the hoof accurately. Age restrictions aren't realistic IMO on most ranches and with most hunters. Look at all the age guesses on this forum when someone ask. Majority of the guesses say 4.5 on every deer unless it has a big body then it is 6.5.

To manage a place, everyone has to be on the same page (even if they are all wrong) and have the same goal in mind and agree on what it is going to take to reach that goal.

Punishment isn't the only way to do it IMO, education and discussions are. Otherwise, you are going to end up going through a lot of hunters and the infighting among everyone is going to escalate.

Also, as the deer get better and management gets stricter...people get more possessive and aggressive. It can change the dynamics of a lease if it is done with shear force. And the enforcer is usually the one that gets blamed for it all.

Good luck

I think penalties right off the back will just cause arguements. If there are new members I would use the first year ot two to really study jawbones and pictures and try to educate everyone and learn your deer.

If goal is 4 1/2+ you can bet there will be some good 3 1/2 year old deer taken.

Accuracy of aging on hoof is horrible even by so-called experts.

I would not penalize someone for shooting 1 3 1/2 year old deer.

Besides aging by teeth is only accurate to within +/- 1 year unless you are shipping off front teeth.

I think the best approach is to approach it from an educational angle. If it is obvious that some arent trying then i would consider penalties.

I made my son pass on an 11 pt 2nd weekend of season because I thought he was 3 1/2 and lease manager said we were only shooting 4 1/2+.

A month later everyone on lease says 11 pt and almost every other 8 pt outside the ears is a shooter.

Same on our lease. Just don't see it happening but luckily only one guy shoots any 10 or or spike. Rest of us watch and wait. We have had 3 150+ bucks taken by neighbors this year we had on camera so hopefully we will get one soon. There is no way most leases can support everyone shooting a buck every year. We are on little more than 1000 acres and if I owned it, no bucks would be shot for 2 or 3 years. But ain't going to happen for a lease.

as mentioned above the first step is who is in charge of the lease/management plan? Is the LO on board to back up the lease boss in making and implementing the plan/rules?

If the property is conducive to being managed (large enough, neighbors, etc.) then some sort of structure has to be implemented - otherwise you are whizzing into the wind IMO

exactly, I have neighbors that don't shoot any under 4.5, others that shoot if its ar correct

Very wise words. I found one 150 ten on camera last week. No one else has interest in checking the cameras anymore. I was just happy that we're making progress and it's great to see a deer like that. There's already a "discussion" about what we should "do" about him, "leave him as a breeder buck", etc. Hell, no one will probably see him. Just sucks the fun right out of it.

You also can't always separate the "manager's" real desire to make it better for everyone and perhaps his personal control issues and need to be respected as the "expert". Very dicey human relations to navigate through. (End of pop psychology session.)

Exactly! Your average deer hunter, who lives in the city, works alot, has wife/kids etc, & makes it out hunting a few times each season, does not have anywhere near the experience to age deer properly. Even professionals may misjudge age more often than not.

Id set a different criteria for shooter bucks, more like points or spread, for most hunters, & let the more experienced guys take on the borderline bucks.

But as stated here, it likely all for naught, as the neighbors may shoot everything that you pass on, anyway.

Guys, thank you!

Very good information! And just to put a little structure in place, the lease is about 1500 acres, 10 guns, in the hill country. Deer numbers are, I believe excellent. We definitely need to cull a few bucks. I see about two bucks for every doe. We have excellent buck numbers but most are pretty young. I believe between shooting them and the drought from a few years ago we are extremely short on older bucks. I posted on another thread pics of two of the oldest looking bucks on our lease and they a few and far between. In order to achieve a semblance of age management we would almost have to shoot only culls over the next two years.

Frankly, asking guys to pay to hunt and spend that kind of money but to not shoot the nicer bucks would most likely cause them to leave and/or create a dynamic that could become caustic. This is definitely not something I would want to endure. Also who knows if we put in all of the management practices and passed for a couple of years the owner wouldn't then demand a lot higher amount to lease the land. I've been told he owns land that produces trophy, 150+ bucks, and gets $5k per year per hunter.

So there's a lot to think about!

Deerhunter61, Don't let the naysayers discourage you. If you have the right core group, it can be accomplished.

Hunting cost a lot of money.....so ...on my lease we go by AR rules as the state law. The bucks we take meeting the ar rule are usually mature deer. This is all we can expect ...I am the lease manager and folks pay money that is hard to come by. I would never make a rule to keep a hunter from harvesting a good buck as determined by the hunter...different hunters have different expectations. A trophy buck is different for each hunter. We take very good deer by following this process. Setting a high bar is not fun...hunting is for fun only..if ya get a big one ..that is great and just gravy. If a hunter takes a buck just about 13 inches and he is proud of that deer ...I am glad for him. Respect for each other and the laws of the land and land owner are my bases for rules. I am doing my very best to follow a good management plan that I have designed myself. The production of great trophy bucks comes along every once in a while. I wish you luck in designing your lease...just be careful on rigid rules that cause hard feelings and cost people money they can't afford. Remember this ..biologist can't agree on a mature buck or even age a buck. These guys do it for a living.

Omg 10 guns in 1500 acres, first management rule I'd make is to dump half the hunters

Depends on where you are at. We have 10 guys on similar acreage and not uncommon for everyone to see 10-20 deer each hunt at each stand at the same time.

I know I was seeimg 10-15 deer every hunt and my BIL in closest stand to me was seeing 20-30.

All depends on location.

Kick off the people shooting 2 and 3 year olds. Replace with folks with common goals. Pretty easy.

Wait until after season, but before anybody has paid for next season. You can’t spring rules on people halfway through the season. But don’t tell your hunters about the new rules til after season. You don’t want guys who don’t agree with the new rules to shoot all of heir tags on purpose just out of spite.

My new approach this year — don’t shoot a buck unless you’re going to get a shoulder mount. That gives people a solid gut check when they’re looking at a borderline buck.

Once you put a management plan in place and the members agree to it then it's done. Anyone that can not go by the rules set by the members should be asked to leave period. I hate to say it, but if you can't tell the difference in a mature buck over a young buck then you probably don't need to be on a managed ranch. I would also have about 6 paid hunter on 1500ac to begin with and just get rid of the bad apples quick.

Kind of a rigged test. It was deer from all of the US. 6.5 in Iowa vs TX look different.

Personally I push for a min 6.5 age class. It pretty easy to define a 6.5 “majority” of the time. And even if you miss a year and it’s a 5.5. 5.5 is much better margin of error then 3.5

Even mature bucks look way different depending on the conditions, the time of year you see them, geographical location, and just individual differences. Several studies comparing cementum annuli tests vs. biologists’ guesses on age using visual and jawbone aging show aging is just a glorified guessing game on any mature buck that cannot be positively identified with a known history.

About the best that can be done is distinguishing yearlings, immature, and mature.

It makes folks feel better and knowledgeable though. I have been guilty of it myself.

Here’s just one example from OK.

What the heck does seeing 20-30 deer have to do w hunters per acre, nothing...... 10 hunters running around on quads and side by sides puts tons of pressure on deer. If you see 10-30 deer every time you sit you probably have waaaaaaaaaaay too many deer. Plus it's easier to manage 5 like minded hunters than it is 10

Based on the OP, it seems to me there is going to be a big hurdle with “buy in” when it comes to any restrictions.

None of these deer are < 5.5

Once you implement 6.5 age class then you also start establishing a history with deer, and the age gets more definitive

If you know them, you know them. You’re not aging them because you know how old they are already.

Most don’t.

I only had/have more then 1 years worth of history on only two of those. Both deer I tried to get my dad on year before, they no showed and I took them following year.

Point is >5 years is very distinctive. Most people that can’t call >5 have never seen one, there lies the issue. Not their fault they just havent been in a place with good structure. Once they do it becomes much easier...pre and post rut.

Once you have a prominent 5+ plus age class, aging gets easier. Herd dynamics changes also

The actual, objective data proves just the opposite. Experienced deer biologists = 0-7% accuracy rate aging bucks over 5.5.

If anyone doesn’t get a cementum annuli test done and the age isn’t known by year-to-year history, all the talk about ages of mature bucks is just that: talk. I get everybody does it. I used to think I could accurately age them too. But, I changed my mind when faced with the facts.

There are several studies with the similar results. Deer biologists give their estimates, and the definitive tests show they are are not accurate to any reliable degree on mature bucks. Results interpretation is not required.

You can be a biologist and not be field forged ecologist, on top of that biologist is broad, means nothing in specifics to Whitetail deer. One test I know that QDMA put out had deer from all over the US. Northern deer have a completely different structure then southern deer.

Anyway any field forged biologist specializing in deer can tell >5 years old, in the herds they are in charge of.

Every deer I posted above is definitive, and they are from four different TX counties(ranches/pastures from 210 acres to 4500). Not hard when you decide to view things from more of an ecology stand point first and not just a shooter stand point. And yes I use deerage.com for cementum annuli testing.

Well, I’m not knowledgeable enough to know the difference between aging from a “herd ecologist” vs. a “shooter” standpoint. I just thought age estimates were age estimates. Didn’t realize being “in charge” of a herd made one better at aging bucks with an unknown history (I guess all those deer biologists in the studies aren’t “in charge” of anything).

Forget the age estimate studies then. I should have known all the biologists participating in them were just dummies.

Well if a biologist is in charge of herd and can’t tell between a 3.5 year, 4.5year vs a 6.5year old,he has zero field time, and is doing data sets and not field ecology, nor should he be in charge of anything other then data sets. You probably shouldn’t hire him as a biologist or guide. I don’t expect a biologist unfamiliar with an Iowa herd to be able to age deer to same degree he does on a ranch he manages in TX. It’s a different structure based on different social herd principles, but I image he would caught one quick.

Via your own account why do we even have harvest ages if people can’t tell the difference between a 3.5 and 6.5? All those ranches and hunters doing it are liars? like I said refer back to photos I took above, they are definitive.

I suggested a 6.5 age class criteria because if you are off a year, you killed a 5.5 and not a 3.5 like you would of on a 4.5 criteria.

I’ll use TLK as a reference, is he a shooter or a hunter that’s spends more time watching and observing. On his lease you better not show up trigger happy, thus why they are able to continually produce the best that thier genetics will allow by making sure that their deer reach an age to express those genetics.

With that said TLK isn’t an exception there are dozens of guys on this forum that produce or allow/mandate an age class that maximizes genetic ability, via age class expression. If they are doing it, everyone on thier lease is doing it. Amazing stuff that someone can learn to age deer.



Obviously you are just here as always to TROLL since you don’t believe it’s possible to manage via age classification.

I’m not here to troll.

I presented a study on the topic. It’s straightforward. It’s definitive. There are several just like it all over the country. That’s not trolling.

I thought folks might be interested in actual facts on the topic at hand. You apparently dispute the studies - citing you and guys you know as having superior knowledge/ability to everyone else (as usual). You are a “study guy”, but apparently only if the studie(s) confirm what you already think you know.

Folks reading the posts can decide what they think for themselves. No doubt many will continue to state exact ages of unknown mature bucks with confidence. It’s what most everybody does. Accepting limitations is hard for many. The “industry” relies on it. Egos rely on it. Many “lease rules” rely on it. I get it.

Everyone have a great day.

P.S. I have never said it was not possible to manage via age classification. I said yearlings/ immature/mature can be discerned. As usual, you put non-existent words in my mouth so you can accuse me of trolling and/or make a non-existent point. Now, who’s the troll?

All that study says is that the biologists didn't get the age of older bucks correct. Is that right? They may have missed by a year one way or the other. Its not a big mistake to call a 5.5 a 6.5 or a 4.5, but I doubt they were calling him a 2.5 year old etc. I also question what they were given to look at as far as the photos of these deer to age, were they summer pics, velvet, pre/post rut, in the rut or all different stages?

I too like the young middle and mature age groups. I do also think if your used to looking at a group of deer you can get better at it and with cameras running year in and out you get deer that you can follow from year to year to get a better idea and then having those known age deer to compare to others will give you a better idea of them as well.

Examine the chart. What it shows is that judging yearling/immature/mature can be done with a fairly high level of confidence. After 3.5 they are wrong 70+ percent of the time. After 5.5 they are almost always wrong. Their guesses are not on the chart, but one can glean from the results on the old age-classes that they are guessing 3:5-4.5 a lot. (Which is what most everyone does.)And still getting it right even between those two classes less than 30% of the time.

Again, if you can follow/are following deer year-to-year you are not “aging” them - as you know how old they are.

You’re still a troll it’s Pretty apparent.

You tossed out a study as gospel that’s irrelevant because of the data sets.

I disputed the study because it genetic, it’s not specific. It’s not specific to biologist speciality or experience or geographical area. It’s a random sampling from deer that weight 300lbs to 90lbs from Michigan to Florida. Any biologist that specializes in Whitetail herd management would conclude the same thing. You get on a lease that mandates front tooth extraction and aging becomes very clear.

If you take the time to learn your herd you will know it. Okla/KS deer age out younger then hill country or Stx deer due to Bergman’s rule, but with a little time it’s easy to pick up. People do it every day

Bobo, I bought a few of the aging kits you recommended on another post or earlier in this one I don't recall. Do you know if you can send them teeth from deer that have been dead for a while or do they need to be somewhat fresh dead? What about teeth that have been boiled?

Have a few I have European mounts on and still have the lower jaw that have been dead anywhere from 3-5 years I am considering sending in.

.

Yes. Think of them as growth rings, a crude reference is like sheep horns, no more rings or deposits after death.

I havent sent molars just center incisors.

Thanks

Lol you truly are a Troll check!!! States the facts then..

Again herd structure very’s because of the reason behind Bergman’s rule. And yes it applies animal size to winter conditions, which also correlates to herd dynamics. If you think the herd structure of Iowa deer is the same as Texas, well congrats you are ignoring that historically colder winters have a tendency to limit age structure and change dominance in that herd. If you think the age interactions in STX are the same as Ohio or Iowa, don’t know what to tell you. 3.5 year old deer up north tend exert more dominance over the herd compared to down here.

Again if you want to get better at aging it means letting your herd get age, more older deer you have easier it’s to age. Pictures I posted are definitive are they not?

Do You have a study that’s published that is ranch or even regionally specific? Also do the participating biologists taking it have similar field experience in that particular geographic area?

Again if you set a 6.5 age criteria it’s much more definitive of a truly mature deer then a 4.5.

You are more then welcome to dispute the photos I posted....please do, infact which one is 4.5 or younger?



Shooters shot for what ever reason, nothing wrong with that, if you don’t care about age so be it. You don’t care about maximum genetic expression then so be it, but deer management should be a discussion you weight in on

So let’s say we go with the 3 class approach, what are your classes: young (up to 2.5), middle aged (3.5-4.5), old (5.5+?)?

If I was going set a blanket harvest criteria via age that assume 90% of potential or better I would push for 6.5 (with 5.5 being acceptable at first)

I can’t dispute anything you say BOBO. Because it’s all just talk. If I dispute it, I will be wrong based on......more talk. Pictures are not definitive of anything other than classification of immature/mature. That’s the entire point. And, yes, deer have different looks/characteristics based on a bunch of factors (even within the same herd and same deer) - that’s the first thing I pointed out. That’s kinda the point too of why definitive aging of mature deer is a total crap shoot. Of course, you simply declare everything as the way you say it is.

You purposely misstate the facts behind the studies (the one cited is OK study) and dismiss the definitive studies as simply “irrelevant” - because (of course) you know better.

I’ll go with the studies and not the talk, thanks.

like I said which photo is a 4.5 year old deer..... I’m not dealing with non facts. All those deer are dead except top one, in which that photo was taken yesterday, and he is a highly marked ol’man! And I’ll bet 1000 dollars he is 6.5 if not older assuming he gets killed this year

You make it sound like I’m on an island, lol ....yet Stxranchman, TLK, RTP, Nav, Trex, bobcat, fouzman, grosven, m16 and dozens more on this forum got no issues doing the samething.

Your goal of trying to discredit me is failing so if you would like to add something to help the OP implement a management plan, then do so. If you don’t as you have already stated move along.

Getting them to 6.5 will eliminate any guessing as to whether they are 3.5. (If that's your goal).

That's what we did to eliminate 4.5 year old mistakes. Bumped it from 5.5 to 6.5 (not the only reason).

Not really, you have a pretty good idea of how old they are when you first see them but nobody is following a buck from when it is a yearling.

no trophies on our place until at least 6.5 - if in doubt we err on the side of conservative. Probably half our trophies end up being 7-8 years old.

Yes I agree but mistakes will be made. Education and communication is the key. If your not sure, take a pic and talk to other lease members before pulling the trigger.

Keep it simple and let them mature. Then make your decisions on which to kill.

I could not agree more - I tell our guys - honest mistakes will be made and sometimes it happens.

Make a lot of honest mistakes? You may be gone.

If it was done on purpose? Also gone - pretty simple

We spend much time beforehand educating a new member on how we operate. Very well written set of common sense rules. It is kind of like an HOA - if you read the HOA rules and do not like them then do not buy in that subdivision.

Guys,

Thanks for all the information. First let me just say that I am not the ranch manager but the ranch manager and I have had a lot of talks about this. Currently the criteria is pretty simple, 8pts or better. The truth is that based on what I've seen over the last two years there is really good potential for really nice bucks to be produced on the lease, 140+ I believe could be produced regularly with a good management plan with the occasional 150+. Based on the information you guys have provided and taking in the variables we would pretty much need to forgo shooting any "trophy" bucks for a minimum of three years, and even one year would be difficult to get these guys to agree to, in order to reach a place where we would see 140 class bucks pretty regularly or at least "mature" bucks.

Frankly, asking guys to pay x dollars for three years with only taking culls and does is a lot to ask. Some of these guys only come out a couple of times a year so when they are there they want to kill a buck. They aren't guys who are willing to sacrifice in order to kill BIG bucks. The other issue is the fear of paying the price to grow bigger bucks and then the land owner raising the rates such that the guys who paid the price do not get to enjoy the fruits of their sacrifice.

So, I've talked to the ranch manager, and although he and I would be willing to pass, the decision is to focus on education and try and get the guys, they seem to be pretty good guys, to learn as they go and hopefully although it will be a lot longer process, get them to choose to pass on immature bucks and let them age rather than institute hard and fast rules that would most likely cause a lot of turn over.

Thanks again for the great information!