Do ARs work???

We hunt some family property in Denton County. It is a mix of ag and creek bottoms and pretty awesome habitat if you ask me. Lots of pecans and oaks and winter wheat here shortly. Anyway we seem to have quite a few of what we are calling wonky bucks. Young bucks with a little beam and some nubs one side but a very messed up bunch of little forks on the other. Is this normal for year old deer? Here is why I ask about ARs, the legal bucks are being shot and these messed up little guys are living because of branched or in some cases barely branched antlers. We are trying to shoot legal management deer when we can but at least one younger 10 has been shot. Seems to me the ARs are working exactly the opposite as they should on our place. Seems to me we should be shooting and eating all of these wonky bucks and getting those out of the gene pool so the few nice typical 10s we have out there will live and breed the does. I think we are going to end up perpetuating the bad genes and eating the good ones partly because of the law. We don't really have a huge doe population so we are trying to leave them alone for a while until we get closer to carrying capacity for the property. Anyway thoughts as to how to manage this situation?

Statistics would indicate the ARs are working.

I have read many post over the years here and on the fishing side from you. I respect your opinion, what would you suggest about our messed up gene? Are there some land owner permits we can get that will allow us to shoot those weird deer or do we have to let them go and see them year after year until they hopefully get big enough to make ARs?

It s an imperfect system, and there’s plenty of arguments against them, but I think it’s pretty clear that they have been effective concerning their intended goal.

I do not know the answer to land owner permits to remove undesired genetics, as I have not hunted in an AR county. You may want to look up your local Game Warden or TPWD Technical Guidance Biologist for that answer. Good luck, I'd be frustrated too at having to let crummy genetics perpetuate on our place.

I've had this buck on cam 3 years in a row with absolutely no growth. I just hope he hasn't got to spread his genes around. IMO he is the perfect example of why AR's work most of the time but not on every place. I am for AR's but I really wish I could cull him out of the herd.

I do understand the intention, I am a fisherman first and to me it is the same as a legal length limit. I believe in that kind of regulation so we get away from the mind set of shooting the first thing that we see with horns. We are a pretty conservation minded and future looking group just seems we need some exceptions in order to grow the kind of animals we want on and around our place. I will look into the GW/Bioligist after season and see what we can do.

STH that is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. Last year I had a guy with spikes about 12" long with eye guards. Spikes too close together to shoot him and I am sure he was breeding a doe or two.

I don't know what you're talking about. There are no deer in Denton County. Please move along.

I ask this every time one of these horrible narrow spread deer late night pictures is posted... have you ever seen/actually had the opportunity to shoot that deer? I never get a response, so I assume the answer is no...

I have had the opportunity once last year and several times this year to kill some of our messed up bucks. Last chance was Saturday morning when one of our wonky bucks walked 45 yards from me upwind and never new I was there.

From what I've seen YES. Talk to your deer processors in your area, they can give you the scoop on what it used to be like and what they are now getting in.

Yes, see the story about this toad that came out of denton county this year?
https://www.facebook.com/stxha/photos/a....e=3&theater

You guessed wrong, I have already seen him 3 times this year in the daylight with a rifle sitting in the stand. Didn't think it would matter if it were a day or night pic, and I didn't know 7:30 in the morning was in the middle of the night....sheesh. At least you got a response this time.

Yes AR's are working. Talk to the local processor. My buddy took his in and the processor said all the bucks in this year had good mass and he hadn't seen any pencil deer yet. I'm happy to say there are finally some management minded people around my area now as well. We had 2 groups who shot the "wonky" bucks even if they didn't make AR. They got busted and moved on about 2 years ago. With them gone we see nicer bucks and the "wonky" first year bucks have multiple points instead of the fork horned deer we used to see. In the second year they show much improvement. Now our deer are getting old and a few "wonky" deer are starting to be impressive. It seems like we get a longer season and the kids have some quality management bucks to take. I'm patient, I see one I will take next year if he makes it and the good thing the neighbors are seeing other deer they would like to take.

That buck up top, and the wonky gene on BB1's place are the reason the AR regs need tweaking. TPWD could take ARs to the next level by allowing for the harvest of middle-aged to mature bucks that just ain't got it. The problem with that is $$$. TPWD simply doesn't have (or won't allocate) the funds necessary to establish such a program.

I don't think $$$ is the problem at all. I think we struggle enough with the simple 13 inch rule either legal or not, we don't need anymore mess to complicate it. There just isn't a good non ambiguous way to write in the rule book what needs to happen.

I don't understand the concept of shooting the trophy bucks and not the culls. Tell any rancher that to improve his herd he has to kill his prize bull and let the little bulls do all the breeding. You might learn some new cuss words.

Too bad this guy wasn't as worried about following the rules, that is a magnificent animal! Not super far as the crow flys from where we are, 15 miles at most. I would love to see some of those genes make it over our way!

Precisely our issue in a nutshell! It is because the culls are protected by law on our place because of their wonky gene! frustrating!

BTW I have no idea where we got that wonky word from but it got used and it stuck.

They are more positive then negative

I don't understand why they don't add an amendment to the rule stating that you can email your pics to the county biologist for an exception. They could send you back a document you could print out and keep with you until disposal/processing. This is the way we manage culls on our lease and it works great. They could easily print the document with a pic of the buck you get approved to match up for the GW. This would not be that expensive or difficult. Would it be perfect, no but neither is the current format.

I see less and less wide bucks and a whole lot more narrow bucks. My place could use a nothing bigger than 13' for a couple of years to thin down the ugly bucks.

Id like to see any deer with protruding hard antlers be legal youth weekend and maybe the last 2 weeks of the season so kids could have a few more opportunities and also allow the land owner to cull some of the mature narrow deer on their place. Of coarse people would take advantage of that because its based on an honor system where the parents should let the kids do the shooting but many will use that rule just to cull deer illegally.

Seeing more and more high and tight bucks where I hunt. Everything 13" up get shot.

Yes they work, not perfect but better than before we had them

I have heard the same thing. Although the system seems to work.
You would think it would crash with scrawny deer left to do the breeding.

Is your place not eligible for MLD? If so, problem solved, assuming you get enough tags to clean up the undesirables.

AR's work, not perfect, but they do slow down the harvesting of young bucks... Which is what it is designed to do. Said it before and will again, managing deer is easy, managing hunters is the hard part...

The buck to doe ratio has tripled where I hunt because of AR. You actually see alot more 2,3, and 4 year old deer. If your lucky a 5 year old or older. It allows me to pass more 4 year olds and that's the recipe for big bucks. Downside is that the bucks are always busted up from fighting. More bucks more competition. This year it has really shown. Also finally recovered from those horrible droughts years ago. It's all coming back around for the better.

If your only 15 miles away I would guess they are already there, just have to let them get some age on them...

in our area, ARs have made the deer go from a bunch of 6 points to 14" 8 points...whipty dooo. everyone agrees that an extra year or two or even three is what their areas need in general, and TPWD thought that 13" spread rule would do that, but it really doesn't. They could look to the north where big natural native deer are the norm. and see what they do. Some states don't have a rifle season at all, and if they do its 7-14 days long. And the entire season doesn't start in September and end in February, thus allowing many more deer to survive the deer season. Take years where a harsh winter storm hits during a season and a whole lot more survive. When you can hunt deer with a rifle for months, you really can't expect the majority of them to survive.

I agree, there would be alot more big deer taken every year in north texas is they would restrict the rifle season more but they won't, they're talking about adding 2 weeks to it next year so all of texas syncs up with the south texas season length. More is not always better.

I'm blessed to be surrounded by management minded folks now. In the past guys shot everything. Now we all agree to take the meat does and the youngsters and new hunters help with the management bucks and the paying guys get the trophies even if it takes a few years of waiting. I haven't shot a buck since 2015. I've taken some meat does to keep that adrenaline flow. I've seen a few nice bucks and i hope a particular one shows up and isn't all busted up after the rut. AR helps but true management is what is needed. Create relationships with your neighbors. Reassure them about what you will take so they don't try to beat you to the punch and shoot a deer before it meets its potential. This is very important on small acreage like my 20 acres. You will be surprised how many mature deer will show up if everyone cooperates.

that's good that it works out like that in your area, but that is not going to be the case hardly anywhere east of 45, or anywhere else where the tracts of land are less than a thousand. I don't even deer hunt, just my observations. They don't accidentally harvest as many quality wild deer as they do up north by accident. We all know the deer need an extra year or two, and making the rifle season longer will not help. All seasons need to be shortened and they will then accomplish what they are trying to accomplish with ARs. Oh, and the states up north that I'm referring to don't have ARs. shorter seasons and NO ARs

Trust me you are mistaken, their are toads coming out of east texas since the new antler rules came into place, we are just coming up on a generation of deer under the rules, guys are just smart enough to keep quiet about for the most part out east.

... and make no doubt game cameras have played a part in this as well, knowing what you have and which ones to grow and let walk is half the battle, but having a rule that keeps your neighbor from knocking down the you young ones is the other half.

They can get away with shorter seasons because their winters are much harsher and do a lot of herd control for them. If you cut the deer harvest in Texas in half, in a few years we'd be overrun. Plus, who wants to get to hunt less? Also, most of those northern deer are huge because they're standing in a corn or soybean field most of their lives. Look at what protein does for Texas deer, now imagine them having access to those food sources from birth. If you've ever studied wildlife management, another thing they talk about is the size of animals as you move away from the equator. Canadian/northern whitetails are much larger in order to better handle the conditions. A 90lb Texas WT doe would freeze to death pretty quickly in a Dakota winter.

Not sure what they are trying to accomplish but we seem to have more bucks and fewer doe. Instead of mostly 4-6 pts running around, which we still have, there are a bunch of 12-14" 8pts also. Plenty of deer to shoot at so I am not complaining. The biggest drawback I see is you pretty much have to have a feeder and a good set of binoculars to shoot a buck.

I've passed on large deer mature deer moving through the brush that I'm about 90% sure are legal but don't stay still long enough for me to be positive. Opening weekend I had a hoss stroll through I let walk for that reason. Big enough deer I got the shakes when he disappeared. Kind of miss the old days when you could make that snap judgement, shoot it and feel good about whatever ended up drt.

Too many hunters don't harvest enough deer as it is. leave a long season, but put a buck season within the season. or do like MS or AL and allow a doe or two per day

We have had feeders and cameras going since Early August. We are really trying to hunt certain bucks and we are studying the animals carefully. We have three definite lines on our place that we can see from our pics. We have some beautiful symmetrical tens, we have some huge bodied, undersized antler bucks even at 5 plus years old(these are our current cull bucks we are trying for) and we have our really messed up wonky stuff.

I really like the idea above of a couple of youth weeks with anything hard horned or something along those lines. I would love to take a kid or two out and let them help us manage the animals!

If you put a buck season in, we're going to go back to the wild wild west like it used to be, when the first thing with antlers hit the ground. It would be open season on 1.5/2.5 yr old bucks. And currently you can shoot as many does as you want, and we're still not killing enough (according to the biologists).

Texans kill plenty of outstanding bucks each year. And I guarantee midwest hunters without ARs kill plenty of small bucks-those just don't make the news. Not everybody up north is harvesting 200" 300lb deer.

No thank you, I hate youth season as it is, too often daddy ends of shooting a buck with juniors tags, there were stories this year in the game warden field notes. If you want to take a youth hunting sacrifice your opening weekend of general season for them.

In theory you are right. In real life I don't think it matters as much in deer hunting low fence free range deer. In the cow example your dealing with known blood lines that produce good offspring.

In the world of LF deer the same does not hold true. All the deer running around are Heinz 57 variety and likely carry both the genetic stuff to throw a no brow fork horn as well as a 20 inch wide typical 12 pt, just depends on how it all comes out, just like with people not all of our kids will look alike.

Everyone blames the bucks poor genetics and forgets that there was a doe involved with that might actually be the reason for those crappy genetics. If you shoot every spike before they can breed how come there are still spikes being produced? Unless you have a way of tracing back mom and dad to for every deer there's no such thing as the perfect management plan. To me ARs aren't in place to produce better genetics they're there to produce more mature bucks, just my opinion though.

Our strategy has changed since the "shoot anything guys" left. Kids get most pre-rut hunts on my place to take out what is mature and we don't want breeding. I get my does in archery if I can. I like to sit during the rut but if I see a big buck tending does he doesn't get shot. Post rut when they start looking for their new homes well, I try to be there to get that one that made my jaw drop.

On the leases I hunted in Parker and Wise County (Both AR counties) there were a lot of "Wonky racks" Tall, narrow probably never going to be legal. We waited for legal bucks and harvested them and left the inferior deer to breed. I don't know what the solution is. There has to be a better way.

They are not scrawny, big bodied, heavy horned but they grow almost straight up. Look to be 12" wide but really tall. Have watched one grow from a nice tight 8 point to a 12 point but just doesn't have the width.

My thought on ARs is that the larger spread gene is shot out in a few years and the narrow dominate eight point gene takes over.
So the state should change up the rules every few years to help eliminate the dominate gene pool.
For a few years have a 13" minimum and then a few years with a 14" max. If you stay with the one rule the dominate reverse gene will always win out.
If there is any regulation on deer it should be age not point count or spread.

I dont use an AR to shoot deer but I guess with proper shot placement no problem

Have seen more than a few deer I'd gladly use my buck tag on to clean up the gene pool and let the bigger ones walk.

Talk to a wildlife biologist, your point is moot in a low fence environment, high fence yes it could have an effect though, but thats why MLD exists. The whole point of the AR is to get some age on bucks and its working.

From what I have seen of certain counties, especially East of 45, they work. I have seen more big deer come out of that country than any other time, processors in the area will tell you that the dynamics of the deer they take in have changed dramatically, and most hunters I know will say the same. From many of the posts on this forum about culls and deer that AR's are protecting, the addition of an age restriction wouldn't help at all.

I can see the need for it in certain areas and the "why", especially areas that are dominated by small tracks of land, but it would irritate the heck out of me to be restricted and I wouldn't hunt in an AR county for that reason alone.

Maybe your auto-correct is really wonky but that's a deer not a toad.

Has made a huge difference in my area and surrounding

No matter that he’s ugly he’s big.. there no arguing that what so ever

Is that a 10 ft white H brace in the back? I smell dookie

Yes, they work.
Are they perfect? No. But that one rule has done more to improve the age class of the deer taken than anything before or since. Most of the early opponents are now converts at this point.

Yes AR's work for what they were initially intended to do, and that is to give the bucks a chance to age in order to increase the deer populations in areas that were nearly shot out of older class bucks.
It never was about growing big antlers as many still believe was the intent. Duh, the longer a buck lives the bigger antlers they usually grow!
I hunted a ranch years back before AR's and I can tell you from persoanl experience if you saw a buck back then with a small fork or hardened antler you had better shoot it, or the neighbor next door would.
I watched and passed on a small buck one time that jumped the fence and POW was the next thing I immediately heard.
Since AR's several year back came into being, the deer herd has grown and there are more and larger bucks on that same ranch.
AR's have been !!!!

This is correct but there are a large number of deer that need to be killed to keep them from breeding. There needs to be something in place for this to happen.

That's where MLD is in place to fix that problem.

Same with ours

??? the deer was shot on small acreage that backed up to ray roberts COE land, completely low fence...

Mine too. Best thing that ever happened to our area.

You be the judge.

I agree, back in the 80's, even 90's in my area some of those deer you just posted would have made the paper, now they are the norm.

The ones that are now deceased were all management deer. I was asked not to post the few trophies.

Yeah, a 100-120" buck in Mills county would stop traffic in the 80s, and a 140 was nearly unheard of and would win any contest easily. Now there are a lot of 130s and 140s, with several 150s taken every year, and even the occasional B&C deer. I hunted 30 years before I killed my first legit 10 pt buck; I've already passed on two this year.

I agree there needs to be something in place for old cull deer. I think you'll see a further easing of MLD programs in the next few years to help with that.

I was in my late 20's before I got my first 10. I keep picking on my son telling him just how good he has it. We didn't even see deer most trips in my teens.

I'll admit that I hated the idea in the beginning. BUT, it has worked out nicely in the long run.

I think you guys got your logic mixed up?---there is no way there were as many deer in the past. Go back to the 70's, you could hunt a full year and see 3 doe. Today you can see 30 a weekend.

AR's are working great up by me NE of Paris. We are seeing more big bucks than we ever have. On camera at least. We have some neighbors that shot two bucks last week that would be close to the biggest I have seen in person and I didn't have them on camera. I have 4-5 big bucks on camera for a 320 acre property and seems like are doe to buck ratio is almost 1:1.

I have been hunting the property for 22 years.

What some people fail to see is some places just don't have great genetics to start with and will prob never have lots of big high scoring deer. Deer hunting is like real estate its all about location. There are deer on Ft Hood that are close to 200 inches a 189 6/8 already killed this year. 30 minutes away a 140 is about as good as it gets on LF.

I agree. A pretty well known biologist told me that AR's were instituted solely to increase the number of mature bucks in certain areas. It had nothing to do with growing bigger racks.

That depends on where you hunted. I was on leases with my dad in the 60s and 70s where we saw 100 deer a day.
In the 80s here in Albany we saw 40 a day.
Big deer were shot out but there were still a lot of deer.

That’s correct. But since deer that can make it past 2 1/2 will be bigger, it does allow more deer with bigger racks (whatever that is for a given area) to survive.

If the young deer in the first picture would have been taken at that time he wouldn't have been the deer in the last picture 3 years later. Bigger rack in my opinion.

I would love to have them in refugio county.

neighbors that kill everything that walks gets really old.

like some people... they shoot any bucks that comes their way cause you can't eat them horns!... god forbid they shoot a doe though.

How do you know the bucks you kill haven't bred before you kill them?

Wonky Deer?

I will get some trail cam pics posted, ours are much worse than that. I would love your wonky bucks on our place!

We have too many deer to not hunt them that long. Up north the winter will take care of an overpopulated herd......Texas doesnt have that luxury.

I love them and they are working in my county

Exactly! I hunt in the hill country and I've hit deer two years in a row and a buddy just hit one and it did $4k in damage to his truck! We need to be able to remove the deer just to keep the overall numbers in check.

I hunt in Austin Co. My father-in-law told me when I started hunting there 8 years ago "don't think you're gonna kill any decent bucks out here, you'll do good to see one at all". Well, he hadn't bothered to hunt since he first bought the place back in 92, because there was only 1 buck that roamed around that had any size to him. And everyone knew he was off limits, because a well known district attorney had rescued that buck when he was a fawn and had been hit by a car, and nursed it back to health. So no one wanted to kill it.

My first hunt, I saw 3 decent bucks. He couldn't believe it. I killed the first buck off of his property on my second hunt. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't shot that particular deer, but I was stunned that a buck like him had walked out, after hearing how there weren't any out there. Since then, I have watched a ton of bucks feeding on acorns in the pastures, and some pushing 150" on camera. They stick to the yaupon and tallow tree thickets, and appear right after last light, and are headed to the thick junk before first light. I've held off on a slew of young, decent bucks...still waiting on a stud to make a mistake. But my son is after his first deer, so I'm not holding him back from any of the 110-120's for his first kill. Austin Co. has benefited tremendously from AR's. It works, in my humble opinion