Thirteen inch spread-low quality forest

I a new to Texas, born and raise in Louisiana. I moved to east Texas and found a hunting lease in Tyler County. I was really excited until I found out there is a thirteen inch spread limit on bucks. From what I have been told, the deer in east Texas rarely reach a thirteen inch spread. I know it Louisiana pineywoods, they would never reach thirteen inch spread, although there are no size limits on them to allow them to grow.

I will follow the size limit rules, because that is just what I do. I am just wondering if everyone else does. The law has been changed for several years now. Do you consistently see mature deer that have the genetics to allow their horns to spread outside the ears (thirteen inches)?

I make the assumption that the habitat that I hunt in east Texas described as piney woods, low mast crops, high yield yaupon understory does not produce the nutrients required for deer to produce racks that will reach thirteen inch spread.

And guys, come on, I know there are people that killed deer with thirteen inch spread in east Texas. I want to know if rule change consistently produces deer getting into the thirteen inch spread or is there a bunch of mature basket racks running around eating everyone corn.

Before, they killed anything that walked out with horns because they couldn't kill does. Now, they have to wait until it's big enough, and in most of ETX there is a couple weeks of doe season.

Yes the bucks are reaching 13 inch inside spread and for the most part, it is working

Have lived and hunted in east texas for all of my 30 years and the 13 inch rule is working for sure. There are plenty of bucks that reach at least the minimum spread limit thanks to this rule where before they would be just been killed as 1 or 2 year olds. You will have to hunt harder in east texas to find a nice buck but they are out there. These came off leases in Angelina and Nacogdoches Co.

The rule is not perfect. There are mature bucks that are under the 13 minimum. But I've never seen the quality of bucks East Texas has produced the last 5 years before that, because most hunted with the mindset "if it's brown it's down".

I guess the good news for you is your not that far from Louisiana if you want to shoot any buck you choose.

The only reason the bucks in east Texas rarely reached 13" was before the AR's if it had horns it went down. Because of the rule we are having to let them walk and with some age they will exceed 13". Do we have bucks under 13" that need to die? The answer is yes, but what I have seen is that the AR's are working.

I live in one of the original counties that implemented the 13" rule. It has made a world of difference and in my opinion the good far outweighs the bad. I can't promise that you will see any legal bucks but I do think your chances of seeing some good bucks (or any buck for that matter) are greater than they were before the rule was implemented. Good luck!

Where I hunt, I'm about 30 min from the La line. Just in the last few years, our bucks are outside the ears. The only basket rack bucks we see are the young ones. Haven't seen a mature buck 13 or less (other than some 3 points, which are legal) on camera yet.

Where at in Tyler Co? Away from the river you shouldn't have a problem.

IMO, it will some time to see if the 13-inch restriction has created any high grading of the herd. High grading occurs when only deer with a certain characteristic are removed, while leaving deer without that characteristic. Many have said that it's impossible to high-grade in a free ranging environment. However, the MDWFP saw it happen in Mississippi after implementing a four-point rule that allowed hunters to take the best of their younger bucks, while protecting every spike. I'm sure that failure, along with research results here in Texas, is what led the TPWD to create the 13-inch rule to protect that same class of deer that is left unprotected with points-based restrictions. Still, common sense would point that high grading would still be possible if you protect deer with ANY specific characteristic, in this case, that being narrow-racked deer. To remedy that, the TPWD took the position that hunters should take the lesser spikes, as these are the deer that are likely to lag their peers in developing wide racks.

Yes, before the 13-inch rule, hunters in East Texas did not see as many wide racked bucks. However, we also NEVER saw any tall, antelope-looking deer that we weren't allowed to harvest.

That's because you never saw mature bucks narrow or wide like you do now.

No arguement there. We were taking more younger bucks without regard to what type of rack they might develop in future years. Now we're taking just one class of deer while leaving and protecting the other. Not sure that's a good thing. It would seem logical that a solution that would allow hunters to take ANY older buck would remedy that. I guess I'll always be in that group of hunters who doesn't like having to pass on a deer that "needs killing".

It's about time we had an AR thread.

I'm in that group as well Dan. Hopefully they will enhance the program in the future to allow mature bucks that don't meet the 13 to be harvested.

Yes, before the 13-inch rule, hunters in East Texas did not see as many wide racked bucks. However, we also NEVER saw any tall, antelope-looking deer that we weren't allowed to harvest.

Texas Dan, probably never saw those type deer because they never got old enough to get to that point before they were in someone's freezer.

The problem would be devising a way to define "mature" in a way that is enforceable and obvious for "inexperienced" hunters.

Otherwise the GWs will always be dealing with the "well, he looked mature to me" senario.

I'm interested in what others from the original six counties that had the antler restrictions implemented (I believe back in 2003) have to say regarding Dan's high grading concerns. In my area I have not seen an increase of mature narrow rack bucks, whereas the quality and age structure of bucks are much better since the restrictions were put in place. It's not a perfect rule (nor do I think there ever will be one), but I still think the good far outweighs any bad.

I have a friend who owns property in Colorado County, one of the original counties. He is very pleased with the results in terms of maturity and qualityy of the herd. Yes, there will be some narrow mature bucks, but as you say, the good far outweighs the bad.

That sounds like a good plan but I can't see it happening. Mature buck

I hunt in east Polk county, which is right next to Tyler county. You should have no issues seeing a legal buck, and if you are patient, you very well may see one 3 1/2 years old or older, which is what we really want anyway. I was never in favor of the 13" rule. With that said, I can see a serious improvement in the deer in and around Polk county area and really, all of east Texas for that matter. I feel like if "TPWD" expects us to judge a buck to be 13 inches, then they could trust us to judge a deer to be mature as well and let us cull those narrow rack bucks. I would also like to see them stop the option of taking 3 mature bucks in 3 different counties, and go back to taking just 2 bucks, regardless of what counties they come from, and leave the option open on whether or not they are spikes or mature bucks(13 inch). Good luck with your new lease.

I heard from our warden that they are considering raising the limit in 2017 to 2 bucks, one of which could be less than 13". Some kind of special tag would be required and you would have to take the deer to a check station for ageing. Just a rumor. Don't know if it's true or not.

I hunt or have hunted in 6 AR counties over the last 10 years and have never seen a mature buck <13" wide.

I have a small property i hunt on and the quality has gone up but the numbers have dropped dramitcly. Dont know if its the new rules or the bag limit to blame. Used to see deer on every hunt now lucky to see a deer. Took my biggest deer to date last year but was also the ONLY deer i saw. Our county went from 1 buck in gun season and does only in archery to 1 mature buck over 13in wide and a spike and 2 does. Think the bag limit should be lowered to one buck and one doe in my opinion.

Agreed Hoyt, it might help the areas that have genetics and numbers to survive. It's crippling to areas that didn't have the numbers to begin with.

Their data sucks, they are pretty much guessing with the small sample sizes for most of the counties.

For those that say AGE, the initial bucks born under antler restrictions have died of old age now, AGE is not the only answer. When you have low numbers, small genetics,...raising the bag limits, killing every spike, and taking only the best deer that can pass on genetics, is hurting.


Then go to west texas, where we see 10 bucks every sitting, including spikes and mutants, and it's a one buck county, because ????

Vernon i couldnt agree more and tpwd sure aint listening. I have written letters and called and done with all that. I have seen bigger bucks under the new laws and regs but at the rate we are going with the bag limit it aint gonna last much longer im afraid. When the fist year of the rules were in enacted it was nothing to see several does and young bucks at a sitting and now lucky to see one deer at a sitting says to me something is wrong and tpwd needs to at least check it out.

Cracks me up that people are worried about creating a mutant narrow racked herd.

As much as I hate govt regulations, AR's work. Because knuckleheads have no self discipline.

You don't think it may not be the rules that are affecting the deer population but maybe some other reason?

No don i dont. I have owned the land and hunted it for 30 yrs now and talk with my neighbors and all have the same results. I think the ar rules are working just not the bag limits. A 4 deer limit is to high in our county. I usually take 1 deer a year and dont shoot does anymore simply because i cant see it with the deer numbers shrinking the way they are. I like the 13in rule but not the taking of a spike and a 13in buck and 2 does.

I was thinking maybe coyotes could be one of the problems. I know around here it is.

We sure have our fair share of yotes. but havent seen any more than usual. At my place its a instant death sentence if i can get em in range. A pack killed my dog several years ago so no quarter given.

We saw quite a few 13+ inside spread deer in south Nacogdoches County. My son-in-law killed this buck (region's Big Game Award Low-fence winner, 2013) and I killed this one with 18" inside spread last year. (I'm about a foot taller and 120 pounds heavier, so scaling by person doesn't work that well.) It seems like the ARs are working there...

Both nice bucks.

My buddy down in Lavaca County, one of the original counties with AR restriction, has seen vast improvement in both numbers and quality. The Halletsville KofC Big Buck contest pictures also back up this assertion.

Wife and I have owned our place for about 12 years. The prior owner let his kids kill any and all deer, so when we got the place there weren't very many deer. And the deer we had were runty and had small forked racks. But I started feeding year round and shooting the one buck allowed, which was usually a spike. Then the AR rules came in, and I don't remember when that was, but I followed the rules and I believe my neighbors did, and deer size and rack size got better and better. The grandson killed a really nice 8 point this past season. It was a beautiful buck that I had passed on twice, hoping the grandson would get him. I will continue to hunt the 'tall spike' that I can never find, in 3 years of trying.

Like the OP, I used to live and hunt in Louisiana. We were close to the Mississippi River in the low lands. The last buck I killed over there weighed just under 300 pounds and had a big thick beamed and palmated 9 point rack. There will never be a day that I'll see anything like that here in central Texas, but that's Ok. And I should mention that the big bucks and big racks came about after antler restrictions were implemented on the place. I was not in favor of it, but my opinion changed after a couple of years. Maximum deer body weight went from about 250 max to almost 300.

I have always been a supporter of ARs especially in E TX as I hunted there for over twenty years with a lot of that on public land. Last year was the first year that I got on a lease with the 13" rule and it was pretty amazing...considering it was in the hill country. There just weren't many 13+ bucks that I saw but there's an easy explanation for it which explains why they instituted the rule in that county...it was a very heavily hunted county....but there were some!

Well i dont think the problems at my place are AR related as much as they are bag limit problems. When u go from 1 deer to 4 its gonna take its toll when the numbers werent that great to begin with,

I agree with this statement. Only been hunting E TX for 4 years now, but it seems like the issue is too many people on too small properties with too many tags. I manage my property but have surrounding neighbors that have 4-5 guys + kids hunting on <100 acre properties. These folks are just doing their thing and I am all for that, but it's whole lot different than other parts of TX I hunted that had similar or higher deer per square mile but it was unusual to see more than 1 person per 150-200 acre. Seems this should be taken into account in tag allocations.

Lou

I have a hard time giving the state permission to take something away from us. They cut redfish back to 3 per person-per day how many years ago? And according to all the research I have seen, we have had more redfish in the last 10 or 12 years than we ever had before. Record numbers. But they have yet to adjust limits to account for it. I'm not saying to go crazy, but add 1 more to the limit, or change the slot limit a little. Hasn't happened yet. Not sure it ever will. Another example would be, how many of you guys actually squirrel hunt any more. Some for sure, but I promise the number of "Squirrel hunters" we have is way down from 20 years ago. I count myself in that as well. I use to live for Squirrel hunting, but over the years, I have got to where I may focus on them once, maybe twice a year. But the allotment per day is the same since I've been a kid. But this isn't likely to happen because once the state takes it, we rarely if ever get it back. We should be careful what we ask for. I would agree that they should do a better job on accurate deer population counts per county and such, but as the old saying goes, "Lets not cut off our nose to spite our face". JMO of course! I hunt/live in Polk county here in east Texas and commute to Harris county to work. I see more deer in route in recent years than ever before. Man, I have to dodge them in the Liberty city limits sometimes and even in Baytown on occasion but it's also relative to the part of the county your in and how much human encroachment there has been over the years. Some areas have suffered, but the areas that haven't seen this are looking great! I'm all for doing right for our wildlife, but again, we need to be careful of what we ask for.

East TX deer at Holly lake. [img]https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/..._34707678925689[/img]

250 to 300 weight was in MS or LA? Sure as heck not east tex.

Got a friend who lives in holly lake and its beautifull but since there is no hunting allowed in the area u cant use that as a guide line in hunting east tx.

"East Texas" can be a little broad. I havent ever hunted Smith county but Anderson county has some monsters

Real broad, too broad for a 5 County limited study to be applied over 100 counties...

AMEN VERNON!