Killing 8s - a management question

This last season we were loaded up with typical eights across each age class. I am thinking about putting an edict out that we need to hammer 8s this coming season. Is there anything wrong with that mentality? I am open to the pros and cons and welcome the discussion.

I would like to see the non-typicals and 9s or better live unless they are 5+ year old.

My thought process is as follows:

1. Range conditions last Spring were optimal to produce great antlers. (I'm convinced that some marginal 6s ended up being clean 8s)
2. Range conditions this Spring seem like they will be great as well (hopefully our summer is not too harsh; big deer will get bigger and marginal deer will be average deer)
3. I am tired of seeing 120" eights that stay that way until they die of old age.
4. Spikes don't get a pass either - unless they still have milk on their lips.

Sometimes I wonder if my expectations are too high for the region we hunt. We are on a medium to larger tract of land that is a low fence MLD III property in the Brown/Eastland Co area.

my thought is if you are trying to manage to more than 8 pts for the most part then shoot the 8 pts that are 3 years old and older. Nothing wrong with it, just tune the harvest to your goals. Don't forget to shoot the does to though. But if you are on MLDs already you have that quota to. What does your biologist say?

Had a 3yr old 8pt here that went to a 10pt at 4 years old. Was a 22" 8 and went to a 24" 10pt. IMO you never know what their going to do till they hit 4. I would not shoot 8pts till they reach 4. I don't shoot spikes either, I've owned the ranch 18 years and have never seen a 2yr old spike here.

I like to compare them to their running buddies. In my experience 2 year old spikes surely do exist, otherwise I don't know how to explain the ones ive shot the last 2 years that weighed 130 lbs each.

On a LF ranch in Edwards county we follow almost the exact same guidelines.
We harvest 4.5 yr old or older 8 pts and try to let the 9 pts or better reach 6.5 yr old.
Our 6.5 yr old 10 pts average upper 130's / mid 140's.
Every few years it seems we are able to harvest a 150 class buck and have had two 160 class bucks harvested over a 20 year time period.
I don't know if what we are doing is right or wrong, just trying to give you our results to compare to.

I just put a blanket on 4yr old other than injured deer... unless your dealing with enough property and money

Sometimes you just need to thin 8's also...they will gang up on you ..mature of course

What SniperRAB said "Sometimes you just need to thin 8's also...they will gang up on you ..mature of course up".

I saw many mature 8s last year and felt they needed to be culled. Sometimes hunters are scared to shoot for fear the big buck may be coming and just don't see him yet... and never do. I agree to tailor to your management plan for the future.

If I read correctly you never said how many over 8 point deer you saw. If you are only seeing 8 point deer and you shoot them all what will you end up with?

One thing I failed to mention was that we probably harvest five 8 pt to every 9 pt or better that we harvest. So yes, we put an emphasis on taking out the eight points. However, we have a strong 9/10 pt gene pool on the ranch. We also shoot spikes and other freak/undesirable bucks that we deem as culls. Every ranch is different and every group of hunters are different. I wish you luck putting a game plan together and hope to hear tales of your success!

We hunt a smaller property, only 320 acres, so we cant support a large number of mature deer. We spend most of our time watching and dreaming about a select few deer and the rest of it shooting does and some of the lesser bucks.

Last season was my buddy's first with his new ranch. It was strictly a "cull only" season. Targets were older spikes, older 8's with short tines, and 2 year olds or better with no brow tines. Seems like a sensible plan and we will probably do the same thing in season 2.

Simple answer you won't change the genetics by culling at 2.5 or 6.5.

When you cull in any age class you are deciding you are done letting him compete for food. A good thinning never hurts unless you have no deer already

I don't doubt they do, I've seen a couple on other places I've hunted years ago. I've just never seen one here.

If you took out mature 8's and 10's, would you get more 12's? Just saying.

Easy way to answer the question: where are your numbers at? Do you have overall density and Buck: Doe ratio where you want it? Shooting enough does today? How's the overall habitat looking? How are your body weights compared to the average for your area?

If the numbers are where you want, and your overall herd is in good shape nothing wrong with taking "mature" 8's. We start taking them at 4.5yo to make room for the younger, promising deer. But, like Bobo said, culling a few 8's won't change your genetics.

I believe his question is if you take out a bunch of 8s and leave the 10s alone to hopefully do more of the breeding, will you get a better 10 pt to 8 pt ratio on the place?

Ultimately I suppose that is our goal. Just was talking to a guy that says he dirt naps every 8 he sees. They have some stellar deer and are hunting less than 10 miles from us. I just am trying to be as good of a steward of the land/wildlife as possible while maximizing the enjoyment I receive from it at the same time.

Herd ratio and health is optimal, habitat/range conditions are excellent, we are somewhat below what I think max carrying capacity is.

Maybe my expectations are unrealistic for our region though. I am just bored with seeing 120" 8s and hoped after 8 years of pretty intense management we would have had a bigger bump in antler quality.

Gotcha. Sounds like y'all are in pretty good shape and quite a ways down the management path. How big is the place? Neighbors having much of an influence? Assume you guys have an established protein program in place for a while? Being MLD 3, you should have the flexibility to direct those buck tags pretty well as you see fit. I reckon your thinking is correct to start making the mature 8's a higher % of the harvest. If you can get on them and your target does pre-rut you will at least open up the possibility of more of your "preferred bucks" breeding your remaining does this year, and maybe open up opportunities for younger better bucks.

For what it's worth we're in a similar boat. Lots of 8's in our older age classes with pockets of really promising genetics in some younger deer. I'm going to encourage our guys to take a mature 8 as their trophy this year if they see a good candidate, and will probably open up a few as management bucks too so they will be more likely to pull the trigger. Finally had a young typical 12 show up, want that dude to "court the ladies" as much as possible.

What are you seeing bigger than these 8's?

Most of the gurus on here/studies that I read say you can't shoot your way to better genetics.

Even though you feel you are under the max capacity of what your land will carry, try to find out what your neighbors deer density is compared to yours.

True, but you can choose only to raise the better genetics to maturity

Culling never stops, No matter how many eights you kill you will still have them. With that said the guys that have the tags numbers to make a very large and sweeping dent will have a better chance at getting closer to the "perceived" outcome of what they want.

The most effective thing about culling that many truly over look is that it controls hunters more then the deer. By that I mean if you are on MLD and say you can shoot 3 bucks a peice, your hunters will be more inclined to let a boarder line 10 or 4.5 10 or 5.5 10 get get a pass for another year because their trigger itch gets cured with two 8pts hitting the ground.

Me personally I cull (non trophy tag) by frame for the area, not points starting at 4.5. No good reason for me to shoot a 3.5 year old buck on my lease unless I'm feeding $$$$$$ of feed.

With that said normally I'm looking for a 5.5 or older that doesn't break 130. On my current lease if it all parties would agree I'd move it to 135, then creep up to 140.

[quote=BOBO the Clown]Culling never stops, No matter how many eights you kill you will still have them. With that said the guys that have the tags numbers to make a very large and sweeping dent will have a better chance at getting closer to the "perceived" outcome of what they want.

The most effective thing about culling that many truly over look is that it controls hunters more then the deer. By that I mean if you are on MLD and say you can shoot 3 bucks a peice, your hunters will be more inclined to let a boarder line 10 or 4.5 10 or 5.5 10 get get a pass for another year because their trigger itch gets cured with two 8pts hitting the ground.

Me personally I cull (non trophy tag) by frame for the area, not points starting at 4.5. No good reason for me to shoot a 3.5 year old buck on my lease unless I'm feeding $$$$$$ of feed.

With that said normally I'm looking for a 5.5 or older that doesn't break 130. On my current lease if it all parties would agree I'd move it to 135, then creep up to 140.

We have had our place in Eastland county since 1989. We have been on the MLD system since it was started. We tried managing our place LF when it was a one buck county. The hardest thing to do is get age on the Bucks. The genetics in this county aren't the best. If you can get bucks into the 140-150s you are doing good. We fenced our place in 1995 and have tried a little of everything with limited results. We have culled 8s and still have management 8s every year. We start shooting them around the age of 4.5.

You won't change the genetics by shooting a certain type deer in a LF situation. It hasn't even worked behind the fence. I would concentrate on getting the ratio to 1:1 and keep the deer below the carrying capacity.

This is what we try to cull




This is what we leave until 6.5-7.5

Here is a 8 point buck that probably 3.5-4.5. Look at what he did. He died at 8.5 or so from natural causes.

If you let a deer breed 3-5 times before you "cull" him, how do you expect to change genetics? If there is ANY chance of it working, you have to cull them young.

The opposite goes for does. The older ones were produced by deer who experienced less/different/no culling. The younger does were produced by deer who that were left after culling. It is this turnover of does that allows culling bucks to work.

You're not changing genetics. Nor will you, with years of mass culling you may reduced a percieved expressed genetic, but even then it will come back if left alone. Only way to truly change genetics is continued introduction that out runs native's ability to wash them out. Minute you stop culling your going to have the same perceived herd as you did before you culled. Same reason a shot out lease can turn around and produce monster deer once age classes get re-established

You're assuming you can control genetics and dispersal, also assuming you get enough tags to make a sizable dent.

Deer management and cattle management don't co-exist out side a controlled breeding pen.

When the grandest of bucks only breeds 5 or 6 does(study I read), the best you can do is let them get some age on them and hope you see granddaddy. 1/2 genetics come from doe and 1/2 from buck----what a revelation. Old man once told me in raising livestock buy the best females you can afford and then be willing to spend that much again on a male. Nature is less selective. Feed them good, cull the worst, and age the rest and keep your buck to doe ratio as close to 1:1 as possible

Bingo on the last 2 responses!

When left on its own nature will produce the dominate gene - 8 pointers. Look around central Texas to see that. We cull 8 points and less aggressively. We are on 9000 acres LF. It may not change genetics but sure reduces the number of 8's reproducing. Our ranch has an abundance of 10 point plus bucks. There are occasional exceptions where an 8 may turn out to be trophy but that is rare - overall most 8's remain inferior deer and we try to limit them reproducing. In our case it seems to be working.

At what age do you take out the 8's?

Im betting 4+

Yes typically at 4 plus. Less than 8 we will take at 3 if no potential

So if the does are getting bred by as many 6 point as they are 10 point then you split the difference and get 8 points and are back at square one.

. As said earlier if 8 or under they get taken.

Same as what we do here.

Was gonna say, by nature, the average buck is an 8. Even Dr. Deer preaches that. Anything over an 8 is gravy. And ya'll already know that rainfall/weather has a huge impact. Some fawn bucks born in a dry year, followed by another dry year will never catch up unless you are feeding heavily and consistently.

So what percentage is that of the total that get taken? Is there an average or does it change every year.

This deer was a typical 8 when he was a 2 and 3 year old. He started changing at 4 and he was 6.5 years old when shot.

. In good range condition years we take 3-4 trophies. Depending on fawn survival and range conditions we take from zero to 100 plus does. On culls and management bucks we take anywhere from 40-60 plus bucks. No matter what conditions are if it is an 8 or less at 3-4 years old it dies. We have too many quality deer with 10 plus points to mess with 8 pointers

. Beautiful deer. There are times when an 8 turns into a good deer. In our situation we don't want to allow many 8 pointers and less to breed in hopes that one turns out better than an 8. But every ranch is different.

What's your density?

Honestly I am not sure on density for this past year. 2-3 years ago our fawn survival was low due to extreme drought so we took no does. Past two years survival has been over 70% so we laid down a lot of does but our numbers are still up more than we want. We had twins on almost every doe this past season.

Our lease hunters take any cull we see, as many does each year as asked to, and one management buck each. Our rancher takes the remaining does/culls/management bucks by selling hunts that he supervises personally by sitting with each hunter. That takes a big load off of us as lease hunters having to harvest a large number of management deer. The arrangement has worked very well for the past 8 years.

Even in drought though we take cull and management bucks. We have very very few spikes and truthfully very few of what we call culls. Vast majority of management bucks we take are 8 points

That makes sense now. That's a lot of tags why I was asking.

I didn't think you guys where hunting less then a man to 400-500 acres, but the management package hunts makes sense

Most hunters on a lease are very skeptical of the rancher running hunts and I get that - but in our case it has worked to perfection - we totally trust our ranch owner - we work closely together to do our part and he does his part and it seems to work out

Which is great, I was just curious on how y'all killed that many deer.

Nothing skeptical after seeing the size deer yall got.... Nice to be on the same terms as LOs also

Yep, having a helpful LO with common goals is a true blessing.

IMO it is first and foremost the main ingredient to leasing a place - so many LO's talk the talk but do not follow through. I have been through a few of them over the years until we found the right one. It is a total partnership - we are so fortunate to have good ones. They actually take some of our lease money each year and spend it on habitat/ranch improvements. Imagine that

A very interesting concept. A few questions and if you don't want to answer that is fine. You and a numbers of others lease the property to hunt. Do you have feeders and your own blinds? Does the LO have his own feeders and blinds that he uses? Is there a certain section of the ranch that is only the lease hunters and off limits to the LO for hunting? If not how does it work if he has hunters and the lease holders are also hunting? Who decides how many deer the LO takes each year? Does he keep all the money received from his hunting? It would seem that there will some years be more trophy bucks than lease hunters. Does the LO then sell those? Like I said a very interesting concept to hunting and one which I have never heard of before.

Be happy to try to answer. The LO provides all permanent stands, corn feeders, pens, and protein/cottonseed feeders. He also provides all labor keeping roads and senderos good and blinds and feeders working. He handles all feed - from ordering to the labor of putting it out. We just pay for the feed. So it is literally turn key for the lease members.
We can add our own blinds and feeders if we like but it is not required. Everything on the ranch is community blinds - no designated areas. Lease hunters always get first pick of stands on a first come/first serve basis and if LO has management hunters he picks stands after we have chosen ours. He keeps all money from his hunts. His hunts are very well controlled on what can and cannot be shot and we can see what management bucks his hunters take. His hunters also help take doe and culls. They can never take trophies and our LO can never sell trophies. (His family is allowed one trophy total per season but in 8 years they have never taken one). On average, in good years, our lease hunters take 3-5 trophies a season max. So lease hunters can go some season without taking a trophy.

The arrangement has worked well primarily because of the relationship and trust between the LO's and me (and our hunters). The family is first class and they know I will run our lease and lease hunters on the up and up. If we screw up we do not hide it. The management arrangement has been great because keeps us, the lease members, from having to constantly be taking management deer. Between the LO and us we get the job done on culling.

Hope this helps

Thanks tlk. Sounds like you and the other members have a very good deal. I imagine it takes some give and take on both sides for it to work.