Spike Bucks

Once a spike always a spike? I've seen two spikes on camera this year that look to be 3-4 inches in length and I've also seen a few 4 pointers that seem to be of the same age. Never seen an older spike on this E Texas property in 5 years so I'm assuming these are just young deer and will hopefully have potential one day. Any thoughts?

Myth. Plenty of rumors and saying about spikes, but "once a spike, always a spike" is the most said and the most false.

Different thoughts concerning spikes. IMO, it doesn't hurt to take them, but without all other management practices firing on all cylinders, you aren't going to see a difference.

One line of thought on lower populated places is to let them live and hope for an exception. If you have a higher population, take them out to help with population control.

Not convinced they are always inferior, but playing the odds of percentages, they are lowest on the totem pole.

I've read several articles about this. Seems like opinions are all over the place. I don't like to shoot them unless I know for sure they are older than 1 1/2. Could be they are a spike cause they were a late fawn also. We shot a 7 yo spike about 3 yrs ago. Had 14" spikes. Looked like a blackbuck at first glance in the trail cam photo.

http://www.realtree.com/deer-hunting/galleries/photo-gallery-from-buttons-to-booner

Really cool age progression of a buck that was a spike his first year.

Most spikes are younger deer, typically 1.5. It has been shown that there is a higher propensity for spikes in overpopulated herds that exceed the carrying capacity of their range where poor nutitrition is a contributing factor. Late born buck fawns (there mother was bred late - second rut or to a 1st year doe) have a higher propensity to be spikes as well. Then there is just flat out bad genes. In any case, I'm of the belief that spikes are very likely to have nferior antlers their lifetime compared to the same age class bucks that were fork antlered at 1.5. If your herd is under the carrying capacity and buck to doe ratio is in line so that does don't go without being bred the first cycle, then spikes are likely genetically inferior and should not be protected in my opinion. If your herd is over the carrying capacity, then both spikes and does should be equally at the top of the hit list to reduce the number of mouths to feed. Yes. There are exceptions where spikes end up being nice trophies, but I'd take my chances on tne fork antlered youngster turning into tne better trophy.

Exactly the way I feel.

Very interesting. Identifying particular bucks from year to year is difficult for me, but I have a good shot with many more pictures than previous years.

Unless they have a docked tail, scar, ear tag, etc. how do you know which fork horn/8pt etc. was a spike or fork horn or whatever from the year before? Maybe some that spend a crazy amount of time in the field could, but I don't think even your most dedicated hunters could tell the difference unless their feeder was in their back yard or they manage the ranch for a living and see the deer every day.

Great link, almost feel like I knew the buck after going through the commentary and photos

Yep

Yeah, I was saddened by his decline and death, which is a weird ambivalence for a guy who likes deer hunting as much as I do.

I followed a spike through 4 years. An 8 point at 4 years. No larger or smaller than the average deer around here.

I've only ever seen 2 spikes on our place and this year to fill the freezer and save a better buck I took the spike. He tasted as good as any + I made the kids some cool whistles from the spikes. Now the better bucks at the feeder get a little more groceries too.

Don't overthink it. When a spike shows up that appears the same size and age of other deer you have seen in the area that carry one or more forked antlers, remove him.

Simply put, let the better ones walk and remove those that lag them. Common sense dictates that all the deer in a given area share the same food sources. The only thing they don't share is the same genetics. And you don't need a degree in Wildlife Biology to know that.

I think it depends on were you are hunting.

If I only see one or two young spikes, I will give them a chance.

However I have hunted a ranch in south texas were if you saW a spike you took it out.

And after about five years we have zero spikes.

All 1 1/2 old have small eight point racks.

I have not even seen a six.

So I guess it works.

It'll be interesting to see this bachelor group next season of the two young 4 points and spike. They were seen on a regular basis right before bow season and for past several weeks now. Seeing them in their groups may be my only way to identify them for the upcoming season.

.

Keep us posted.

People like to call out those spikes which later became better deer. But what you seldom see is a comparison to what his better peers looked like later as well.

Nearly all spikes will develop forked antlers given time. The point is how they will compare to their better peers.

Wrong... Juvenile deer are like juvenile kids.. Good mothers put their kids a heads, but the runts will catch up in time

Late born fawns are behind body structure wise, but catch up with age.

That's like saying every girl will develop, well, you get the point.

Ain't going to happen.

Show me those 1000's of spikes turning to 170+ class bucks you have pictures of then.

Reading is funduhmental.

Dan that's like trying to guess which young ladys will develop, well, by looking at 2 year old kids... I think it actually hurts your case more than it helps.

So you can weight deer on the hoof? All 5'0 guys are the same frame?

Again until a deer reaches structural maturity you have zero idea what head gear he will support.

Keep shooting young bucks.....

Did you actually read this? You're anology supports my case.

Trying to compare deer to people or livestock is about the same don't you think? Show me all those pics of those 1000's of spikes that turned into 170+ bucks?

Show me none of them turning in to 170

no... don't shoot them unless you have to many deer... or your hungry

The myth of the runt.......

I can do that with pics of the last ranch I managed since 100% of the spikes were killed as well as every buck with 5 points or less. How many pics do you want to see? I have all day and can fill this thread full of pics if you want me to? But I would still rather see all those spikes that turned into 170+ buck you have.

I have seen spikes on ranches were fawns were born in late April up into August. Do you know what the differnce in them were? They all still had spikes. Some were longer spikes than other and the ones born in April were much larger bodied. Wanta try again?

Heck it will take you a while to find 10 pictures of spikes that turned into 170+ bucks.

You better get the pop corn truck out of the garage Ranchman.

X2

I used to think "once a spike always a spike" until a couple of guys who raise deer
showed me a couple of deer that were spike at 1.5 yeas old.

The one guy had a couple of fawns that were born late and had small spike antlers at 1.5 and the next year the deer were around 140"s.

The other guy had a buck that had 13" spikes at 2.5, he said the buck had gotten sick and that is all he grew, That buck was a 170" 3.5 year old.

Now I understand that these are farm breed deer but I think if a deer that gets all the food an nutrition it wants and does not have the stress of a wild deer can be a spike then I would think that a wild deer could easily be a spike and have still have good genetics.

Still waiting on pics of the 170+ bucks that were spikes.....

lol

I'm sure someone has ran into this before raising deer in a high fence area. TPWD has never tagged deer and done research for this purpose?

Hu?

I'm asking if research has ever been done a tagged spike to know it's growth year after year? It'd be quite difficult to prove otherwise as someone previously mentioned.

I think they "COULD" possibly grow into a nice buck. But for sheer numbers sake the odds are against them. So just take the spike and enjoy that tasty lil backstrap. If yall wanna let it pass cudos to you. But like the meat and there's still plenty of nice bucks available

Not as long as it is going to take Texas Dan to actually show us a picture of a deer hitting 170 on his place. Since he has never seen a browse line, and his deer have fat under the skin, he assumes he is under CC... Maybe he should let a few get to late maturity to express what genetics they might actually process, to see what he is working with instead of trying to manage yearlings.

You know as well as I do that many of the type deer that "get" you and I with straight slick 8pt frames probably fit the none multi point yearling genetic that Kerr so happily line breed, and reports on.

Regardless of yours and I's thoughts on yearling harvest... It's pointless with the limited resources and the acreage most hunt on.

Most would better served with getting as many bucks to full maturity or spending their tags on doe harvest then thinking the can control genetics

Did these guys who raise deer also have yearling bucks that had 6 or 8 pts? How did the spikes compare to them?

Yes it's been done. In STX and cross plains area.

And the results indicate?

Those true spike genetic bucks can't compare to those yearling bucks with 8,10 or more points. Just can't. The real question to ask is how many of those yearlings that were spikes were later used as breeder bucks? Then ask why they were not used as breeder bucks?

What they wanted to prove going in. When others interpreted the results on many of these studies and other studies on culling, they showed different results from the data.

googled 'giant spike deer'

If you like him then keep him another year till he grows into to something "special", cause you will get more that look just like him. I would really want a whole pasture full of bucks like this. How about you BOBO?

There are simply too many variables that will contribute to yearling bucks being spikes to justify shooting each and every one of them. Each variable is a product of the environment and has absolutely nothing to do with genetics. For example:
1. Born In August vs. born in May.
2. Was orphaned at 30 days vs. being fully weaned.
3. Was the smallest of a group of tripletts.
4. Doe was a poor milker.
5. Poor habitat conditions during the first 18 months of life.

Yearlings spikes are not genetically inferior and should not be culled under the pretense of genetic manipulation. Genetics cannot be altered under low fenced conditions via a bullet.

Stx nailed it. They lost a bunch to culling on neighboring ranches but had a few spikes break 150. Several ways to take it.

150 is a huge deer but is it huge when same ranch has produced a couple 170-180? Me 150 is still a really big deer.

There is always the exception, you manage for the top exception that happens to be the bottom end exception.
But was he always a spike?

Like saying no 8pt goes to a ten and no ten has ever gone down to 8 or 9

Again show me the pictures of high numbers of spikes born on a ranch that turned into 170+ bucks.

Lol

Same circular agruement.. I'm going back to work

Antler size to me is more about the location of the ranch. In my area and the Hill Country a 130's type deer is consider really big. In South Texas that would be a management buck or even a cull on many ranches. Still that same spike on any ranch will never be in that group of bucks either of call "big" in any number. Just won't be there ever.

I am going out to kill that one and only spike I have now

I long enough to revive this.

Typically, a 1.5 yo spike is going to grow bigger antlers.

For the average joe on a lease, it is better to let a spike mature and has a decent chance of being a 125+ deer in the future. A "nice" deer to most people's standards.

However if you are managing for trophy deer, it is probably a good choice to take them out. It is all about standards and management goals. Heck, there are ranches that are killing 150" "culls" with bolt guns after captured with helicopters.

Some TPWD research out of 144 deer:

"In this study, antler production of fork-antlered yearlings and spike-antlered yearlings were compared annually until 4 years of age. Fork-antlered deer produced almost twice the antler mass each year as their spike-antlered counterpart."

https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/hunt/wma/wildlife_management/kerr_wma/research/antlered_yearlings/

Well I certainly opened a can of worms with this one. A few websites suggest that "many" late born spikes can/do pass other branched antler deer of the same fawn crop when tagged research was conducted. I'll happily high fence my property and conduct all the proper research if some wants to pay my salary for the next 5 years

you don't have to leave the spikes to have 125" deer...... they will be there regardless, I lease my ranch and believe me hunters will not stay and pay for 125" deer, at least not for long. 125" deer cause tons of headaches, bellyache'n and hunter turnover ever 3-4 years. This leads to apathy and "screw it I wont be back next year" so down goes your 135" 2.5/3.5 year old and so on............

its just not worth the exception to let them walk and along with the allotment of does to be taken every year ALL spikes must go as well as the junk off the mature end. Its all about protecting the best and the middle aged deer to maturity for our ranch

happy hunting

Bet he killed a few booners in his fighting days

You should the sheriff was his father.

Spike I am your father...

And elk, mountain lions, yotes, grizzly bears and wolves

No doubt

Should of darted him and let him be the security force

I think any spike can grow up to be a basket rack seven or eight point in his prime. I think you need to afford him every opportunity to fulfill his potential and let him have the benefit of all the feed and mineral you can give him to maximize his potential.

Then let him die of old age because you won't want to waste a tag on him.

It's not hard to look at 3-4 yearling bucks standing together and tell if they are the same size or not. It's also not hard to tell which of them already has better headgear. Why should I continue to feed a spike with < 10-20" of antler when I've got other yearlings in the 50-80" range?

We've birthed and raised nearly 3000 sheep in the last 30 years, and about 3000 goats. I know from experience that if an animal gets knocked when young (runt/bad genetics, bad mother, weak twin, got sick, etc.) they almost NEVER catch up to the rest of the group. Does one every now and then? Sure, I'm sure it happens. Just as I'm sure some 8pt yearlings never get past 120". But we're talking odds, and the odds are with the better young example.

This "article" has little to no value. The guy has no clue as to whether those pics are the same deer.

A yearling is a yeaing... It's a deer that has an immature skeleton and muscle system that's still 3 years away to becoming mature and 5 years away from peak maturity. It's a baby and shows you nothing more then if it's a male and ate/suckled well or didn't eat/suckle well first year of its life. Nothing more nothing less

If you can't support extra yearlings to take a chance your doomed from the start.

Those runts never catch up but yet have the same genetic potential as thier siblings that were conceived earlier?

You raise a 100 sheep( 1-40:50 cover ratio--so 1 ram and 40-50 ewes) a year and how many of those 40 lambs do retain to full maturity? What do you hold back 0-5 replacements ewes a year. So not many.. Hardly enough to pit one against the other over the full life cycle




With everything said...Even then the biggest body frame at maturity doesn't equal the biggest rack and vice versa So why would you cull off body frame especially in immature age classes

Seemed pretty confidant being its a game farm with very light densities... So you are calling they guy publishing a liar?

Liar...not sure about that. No way to prove its same deer YES.

The article has made a lot of traction by him saying it is the same deer and received lots of publicity for him. Saying its "possibly" the same deer wouldn't have received as much traction for sure.

You make your own conclusions I guess.

I wouldn't say he is a "liar", he probably thinks he is right

Willing to bet it's the same deer. they are pretty light denisitied up there...very light actually. Question should be is that the largest buck ever seen in the area.

Just like your place you pushed the 200 mark so what's really big to you 140,150,160,170 etc

Even then you can go through this forum and find a tagged spike buck in stx that broke 150 on free range. Just happened to be one of the bucks in the study that actually made it to maturity.

95 percent of the guys on this forum don't have the resources, tag and acerage wise for any kind of culling to be effective via buck or buck numbers... They have better chance at pushing ratio and cc via the shear numbers of doe tags they have. You are like I was in Oklahoma, blessed with light densities... Only two ways to go with light densities make them lighter via culling what you feel is the bottom immediately or let age classes get more established then cull out or do as I did and let them all get to 5.5 or better.

Huge chunk of the guys on this forum have never broke 140, so is it better to advise them to cull into trophies or ease up on the bucks, use their tags on does and only hunt 5.5 or older bucks?

We as hunters are to set on success being measured in antler harvest(any age)....thus most are working backwards on deer management. Want an example look at most leases and hunters per acre... You tell me if those hunter denisities match mature buck denesities... How many are t not going to use one or both buck tags

I'm out on any more spike debate everyone should do research and see what fits their bill.


I'm just saying using that reference set of pictures/article as some type of fact or basis for a management plan is pretty uneducated.

I concur, but so is using a study line breeding a hillcountry spike to ones off spring and then doing the same with a buck with a much higher known genetic potential, and saying spikes as percentage won't out score multi pt'd counter parts. Well ya that's like saying a stud buck from Iowa will stump the score of a mason county deer.., who would of thought that...

You obviously are doing things right. Single greatest thing you have done is probably not spike harvest. Probably watching those bucks get to maturity and making sure they have everything they need in the mean time. If keeping the density low via spike harvest is needed so be it.

Given the life expectancy of deer, at 2-1/2 they are far beyond that.

It fathoms me that anyone would base harvest decisions on a belief that every young buck has promise.

It phantoms me you related deer development and culling to 7-8 year old kids.

4 1/2 deer =skeleton maturity =(female humans 14-17, males 18-22)

Therefor

2 1/2 deer = 7-8.5 year old human female and 9-11 year old male


It's offical you have issues..

Some people just like to argue, even though they don't make a lick of sense. Happy trails.

Not around here.......

To be honest, my greater concern is that we could be high grading or shooting the width out of the herd. I wish the current restrictions could somehow be modified to allow hunters to take any 3-1/2 or older buck regardless of width. It's purely a matter of personal preference, but deer with tall, antelope-looking racks just don't appeal to me. Such a change would allow hunters to take them and let the better 3-1/2's walk. The first buck I saw this past season was 3-1/2 that would have met the restriction. And yet, two weeks later I watched an older buck that I couldn't shoot because it wouldn't safely meet the standard. Granted, some might argue to pass on both. But I don't see that as acceptable for those hunters just wanting to have fun and fill an ice chest.

So in the meantime, the only option is to get them when they're young.

As far as I know they were not used as breeder bucks and yes all the other bucks had multiple points.
They were average with all the other deer the following year though.

My 1st post.... to help out some of you, for others, well, maybe not much help.

I'm certainly no expert. Just passing along some info for those with a genuine interest in whitetails. The research is all south Texas, 5 different ranches, and 4000+ deer. There's lots of data to sort through in the links, but generally they found that the growth curve of a spikes antlers as they age will closely mirror that of multiple-branched bucks, they just usually wind up the same as they start... (with a lot less total inches)

There will always be anomalies. Mature bucks with spikes and yearlings with phenomenal growth. I've seen mature spikes, and the best yearling I've seen had 10 pts with an inside spread of more than 18"

Antler growth research

Part 2

I've hunted the Post Oak Savanah region 20 years. I've managed deer on 3 properties. The max length of time on one place was 7 years and it was exceptional because of it was river bottom farmland with a golf course and management minded neighbors. We went from 125 to 150+ deer with our management plan but it took time. There were deer from all sizes and since the land was cut by 2 rivers each section held a different class of deer until the rut when you never knew what might show. The other place I managed didn't fare so well deer started looking better but as a lease being sold goes we lost it and never saw the results. Now My Place went from 1 or 2 deer a week and 1 meeting AR to 5 to 9 bucks on the protien feeder at a time and 4 to 6 better than AR. 2 would make 135 this has been a long 5 years and the only 2 deer taken in that time. One being a spike. Good luck in your management and may you see the results you want.

Heck, I've followed 1 from nubbin to 5yo... was bigger than what most folks in the area had ever shot.

I'm still waiting to see another no browtine buck.