This "spike" thing still blows me away....

I'm a Northerner, from Montana; been here for 6 years now. Up North, a spike is a young deer, not a genetic anomaly. It really took me a while to get used to looking at the spikes down here as an actual, mature deer, that just happens to have the genetics that will leave him with two single antlers growing up from his head. It still blows me away...but heck, it's one more deer I can punch on my tag, so I'm all for it! (Now if I can just get used to the special "doe dates" during the season...I'll be set)

That is all; just some random thought I had this afternoon.

95% of spikes will not be mature deer....5% will be mature with injuries causing spikes. Does generally will be does 100% of the time.

OP, did you also have young deer that weren't spikes?

I have only seen 2 spikes over 1.5 yrs old that have been killed out of 100's.

Spikes a bonus buck in antler restriction counties.
You know, the counties where they want bucks to mature.

Yes, usually they'd branch at the tops...we'd call them "two-points" (even though they'd be a four-point down here)

I see what you're getting at, and had a tough time being convinced that it was ok to shoot spikes if you wanted to "grow" bigger deer.

^ ^ ^

So then, is it ignorance?

A spike is about the only deer you can post a photo of on here besides something over 120 and not get criticized for!

Good point. Down here in South Texas, we don't usually shoot spikes. Or at least I don't.

Not sure that I would call it ignorance. There is research aplenty that shows that spikes are and will be inferior deer when they get older. Basically, they will never catch up to their peers. When you are on a management plan that calls for extensive culling of the herd, spikes will be taken simply because they are going to be on the lower end of their age class. IMO, most places that take spikes will not see a difference because so many other factors need to be in place before that level of management is going to have an impact.

Ignorance is when alot of people call a spike a 3.5yo. Most are not and never will be.



Only 100's...I figured you alone have killed close to 1k

Not sure what your saying? Most people in Texas don't think spikes are "mature" and therefore kill them. However, a lot of people are of the thought that most spikes lack good genetics and want to thin the herd of them. Thats the great debate not maturity.

Well, crap--then maybe I'll just leave that portion of my license attached. Thanks for the enlightenment--I knew something didn't smell right.

Hmmm...maybe not "most people in Texas," but rather "most people I've hunted with in Texas." That's where I got the idea.

simply comes down to inferior genetics.......whether or not you prescribe to that thought is another thing.

sounds like you've been hunting in East Texas

This is the basis for most debates and arguments...and the TPWD including the option in AR counties.

...based on bad science.

Agreed. The spike thing has been proven false. Dr. James Kroll did a very convincing study several years back that blew it away.

There was a very argumentative study done many years ago.

In the end all things been equal the study said that a spike will be via percentage of Boone and Crockett points not as high as its forked or multi tined classmates. In other words if one class mate hits 170 then the spike is said to only make 150...

Most folks don't have the resources to effectively cull, and those that do could lose a large percentage of their bucks for an age class.

Tpwd introduced the spike tag to ease pressure on younger forked or multi forked deer viewing the spike as the lessor of the evils.

The study hasn't been replicated, they took two yearling a forked and spike and line breed them to their offspring.

It's funny the multi point buck they used king Charlie was 216lbs, 15pts and 19"s wide at his death. Think about that one for a second... Sounds like a stacked deck to me

It was convincing if you wanted it to be, but it used a small sample-size that dwindled over the years and left holes in the data for un-accounted deer. It's a lot easier to make the research fit your goal when you have an agenda.

As an Aggie, I would hope that you've been around livestock long enough to know that most of the time, 'true' runts never catch the rest of the pack. Are all spikes true runts or inferior? No, I know they are not. When you have six young bucks, 2 4s, 2 6s, 1 8 and 1 spike, which one should be first in line to get lead if you need to reduce buck numbers and they are an option?

I don't know about that as a whole. I've seen research on spikes that state some button bucks with excellent genetics and are born earlier than average can attain spikes up to 3 1/2" as well as 1 1/2yo that was born exceptionally late but that they tend to catch up the flowing year. If I recall correctly those two categories cover on average something to the effect of 1/3 of all spikes

Just noticed I quoted the wrong one but you get the point

I agree most spikes are just plain 1/5 yo deer. I shot one this year I believe was not a 1.5 yo deer. He weighted over 130 lbs live and dressed over 100 lbs. Had spikes about 8 inches long clean, no bumps are flaring and comparing with other deer was not a 1.5 yo.

Something other than the yearling age class, especially when ppl are managing for the exception. Those 4s 6s 8s, etc will likely be avg, any of them could be that exceptional deer that blows avg out of the water.

I think I'll have another JD on the rocks with a water side!

They want young bucks to mature yet let hunters have the legal right to
take a young spike as sort of a freebie.

I think a lot of spikes are killed out of desperation.

I know everyone I have killed was not out of desperation unless he was heading to the brush..

I might have made a desperation swerve in my younger days.....

There are lots of ignorant folks that believe "a spike will always be a spike". I've heard it so often that it makes my head hurt. It's the biggest bunch of bull and yet, because someone said it, by God, it must be true. SMH.

A spike is a mouth that is feeding on natural forage that other deer could utilize. If you have to many deer and your ratio is okay then remove some mouths in both bucks and does. They are easy to find and leaves a better looking buck that you like that will get another year older. No one can say what a spike will ever be, but the numbers do not warrant keeping them unless you are low on buck numbers or selling deer hunts to pay the bills.

At the bar? We all have....

This thread has been very enlightening to me...sounds exactly like what happens a lot where I'm from with the "two-points." People want them "out of the gene pool, but end up killing a 2 year old deer that would've been a solid 4x4 or 5x5.

Thanks to all for participating

Never! I have standards.

Do you not drink?

Apparently the TP&W believes it.

* Except on Thursday night. Standards were lowered with increased alcohol

Nah, I had good fool-proof management plans in place. Pick out the ones that met the trophy or upper end mgmt criteria before you start drinking.

It's just as foolish to believe every spike has potential, as it is to believe that every spike will always be a spike. Does that mean that nothing can be seen in a 1-1/2 year old buck that provides some indication of its genetic potential? Absolutely not.

I have shared this photo of a shed I found while mowing a food plot. The young shed is shown along with the antlers from a mature buck for the sake of comparison. Now it's obvious the shed is too large to come from a first year fawn, and yet too small for a 2-1/2 year old. Therefore, it must be from a 1-1/2 year old deer, the age in which so often we found spiked bucks.

It should also be obvious this youngster has a lot more potential than a buck of the same age with just two, four inch spikes.

Spikes eat just as good as a 10 point.

But you never took a cull late in the game, ha ha

Only if is he is managing for a Friday nighter

I don't believe in culling...somewhere out there is a person who will view it as a trophy, it just wasn't me.

Not really, don't know what either potential will be. the 8 may never have the frame to do much, the spike may develop a frame that will outscore the 8. Point is at 1.5 you just don't know, at 2 you have more to look at. There are very few deer you can actually track from 1 to 2.

It's really foolish to predict what a 18 month old deer will score 48 months later. It's also foolish to age deer by antlers

If you can do it... You are the only person in the world that can.

Spoken just like a QDMA follower who somehow believes every spike is sure to become a bruiser if left alone.

Again, this shed from a 1-1/2 year deer shows enough potential that he should be passed over for true spikes of the same age. It has become the standard by which I now judge 1-1/2 year old bucks.

Truer words never been spoken

It doesn't really show anything other than it was 4pt on 1 side. What is that deer going to be at 6yo? Odds are he'll be avg like the majority of other bucks in that same age class. I'm not looking for average, I'm looking for that deer well above average and it could be any deer out of the yearling class. A lot easier to make that call when you have more to work with as the deer ages. I actually have 1 buck now that a certain member on here was calling "gumby jr" a cpl years ago because of his short tines. He still has short tines, but he's about a 140" buck as a 4yo. You just don't know what deer will do.

The images not being shared these days are those of the small, basket-racked 10 and 12 points with their ten-inch spreads that are not being harvested due to antler restrictions, or being left in the woods because they were shot and later found to be illegal. IMO, these 2-1/2 year old deer represent the target group of bucks that AR's were created to protect. It seems obvious the little guy who produced that shed, most likely made it to become one of those protected, basket-racked bucks.

First I'm not a QDMA guy, I not a fan of the org. Ironically you a preaching TDM(a very high level trophy deer management program, that you don't have a 100th of the resources to get to).
You think I'm against killing spikes because you think I think they will all be monster. Not all deer will be monster period not all deer will even be average. But if your going to manage a place, manage it with the resources that you have. If you don't have the tags to kill more then 10% of your spikes, your wasting your time, and just looking for an excuse to kill more antlers. why not focus your attention on improving habitat, ratio and age class?

Second , Anyone whom has ever had a successful program will never say it's base it off shooting spikes. If they do they forgot all about their herd management numbers wise, age restrictions, ratios, browse studies and increased CC. Those programs that do shoot spikes are managing for an exception(an exception that would be there with or with out spikes)and don't want to feed anything less. They are also shooting onsite any thing under 8pts in every age class over 1.5. How many tags you get a year? And what's your feed bill?

You will never manage for the exception, you've said it a million times on here you prefer public where you have zero control over the herd. You want to shoot spikes knock yourself out, but before you do look at the biggest buck on your wall and tell me you are 100 percent positive it wasn't a spike. You can't.

Ironically there are lots of documented spikes at maturity that out score your biggest buck. That's not a slam to you, but more of an eye opener.

You keep preaching Kerr but cant even state what they did other then a pre written conclusion which you take out of context any way.

How thankful Texas deer hunters should be the TPWD made the decision to implement AR's throughout East Texas. The success of their efforts are undeniable given the deer now being taken in the region.

Or perhaps you wish to argue that point as well?

You just posted a ten point that's basically an 8pt. Same deer that you are proud of that probably wouldn't of made it past his 3rd birthday on any ranch that truly manages and kills spikes. Great deer with out a doubt that many would be very proud to take. Unfortantly you have zero ability to tell me he wasn't a spike

Agrue what point that prior to AR's two thirds of the deer killed where 2.5 or younger forked or better bucks?
You classify spikes as inferior(but yet can't define inferior),TPWD went what they considered lessor of the two evils to get AR's passed, appease your thirst to have to use two buck tags, in an effort to up age classes.

I got news for you those east Texas ranches where the monsters get killed, already had age class restrictions in place and been killing big deer long before AR's. Those monsters or stud deer where their long before spike tag

Perhaps that's why some appear to despise the TPWD's efforts so greatly. They have made it much easier for hunters throughout Texas to take home a trophy without having to pay some high-fenced rancher for the opportunity.

I agree totally, back when these counties were one buck only, no one shot spikes unless it was the only deer they saw( what I meant about desperation earlier) people killed 4s, 6s, whatever. The only thing AR has done is stopped your neighbors from doing this, maybe. Because if any one needed AR to police themselves, they were never trophy hunters in the first place. Very few people care about management, they just want to kill bigger deer. So shooting a spike every once in awhile is not gonna get you there!

Lol I'm not talking HF ranches or guided operations I'm talking well managed ranches and leases.

You really think big deer come from shooting spikes or the mind set that deer don't express their best antlers until maturity?

But you can tell what a yearling can do if he has 9 points or more his first year. Studies have shown that is the case that a buck with 9 or more typical points will outscore those with 8 or less points. A significant amount of difference in the average of two groups at maturity.

You bet Stx if I have a first year buck typical ten, I have had 2 of these over the last 3 years, I truly believe they will be better than average.

Not really, there's just more deer in the <8 pool to bring an avg down.

Won't make any difference if they never reach the potential of the bucks with 9 or more. Those are the ones I want doing all the breeding. A small number of the 8 or less will score what a very large % of the 9 or better will do. Not my study but I agree with the results based off what I have seen using the same criteria in 1.5 yr old bucks.

That percentage of <8 will exceed the total population of 9pt+ yearlings on the majority of places.

That % of higher end bucks you are wanting to shoot will be in that 9pt+ group of yearling 100% of the time.

That would be a statistical anomaly.

Spikes taste good, I'm having some fried backstrap right now. I have seen 2 spikes on my place in 2 years and this past weekend i dropped one. I saw other deer but I'd like for them to stay in the gene pool a few more years so I satified my hunger for venison with a "LEGAL unbranched antlered buck" Sure is tastey next to these over easy eggs, sliced sweet potatoes, bisquits and gravy. Carry On!

This is a train wreck and think that most of you that are posting on this really dont have a clue about any kind of deer management or deer genetics in general for that fact.There are some that are spot on and others that need to go do some observing in there stand and not hunting !One fact that gets me is DR. knoll studies where most done in a controlled environment and all though they were good studies they still are not proven but to him and his followers . You know when a spike needs to be taken off and when it is just a 1.5 year old and if you dont then you dont care and are meat hunting and thats great but if you leave a 2.5 year old and are tying to get some good high scoring deer in your heard then your just dumb IMO any spike over 1.5 that has not started to fork or totally change his character of his horns is not going to be anything .On the other hand this place we have now has so many bucks that it is really hard to keep up with whats the same ones from year to year when your seeing a lot of say 3.5 130'' buck and down to 1.5 10'' 8 points and everything in between i just dont get how a lot of people keep track of their bucks because it's hard work.

If your ranch is shooting 150-170 deer every year guess what, they will be there regardless of spikes or not. Your upper end is your upper end. By removing spike in theory you just culling at 1.5 and not at 3.5. In other words your just eliminating mouths not genetics. If you eliminated genetics then you would never cull again. Management is all about giving yourself the opportunity to gamble on upper age classes.

We also talking about a management system that most people can't do because the lack of tags or resources.

Kroll study doesn't prove anything since he is missing the most important part for proving improvement or not,, and that it's (time). He needed 10-20 more years to get any descent data.

I beg to differ !!!
You can control it ......so are you saying that all the big ranches should not shoot anything just let all the culls and management bucks go ? TO me thats what your getting at and if you can't control and genetics then whats the point of anyone trying based on your statement.I know the fact of more mouths eat more food that can be eaten by bigger or more desirable deer but that was not what i was getting at .

I've read a LOT of studies on both sides. Not only is there conflicting information, but one side can read a result of a study and manage to draw the complete opposite conclusion that the other side draws from the same study. Both sides also tend to get emotionally charge about it.

To address something you said above, it's not usually a mature deer. Some deer are spikes for life, and I think I've seen one spike that was 2.5 years old, but almost all spike bucks are 18 months old, not mature deer.
There are two reasons that TPWD advocates shooting spikes. One is the idea that most of the time if a buck is a spike, then his genetics will allow less antler development than other bucks in his age class. The other is that with AR's that protect only small antlers, you are selecting deer with small antlers to do most of the breeding. But by adding the spike tag to AR's you protect young deer that show good antler potential but not those that show poor antler potential. That's the logic behind it.

Many say that what an 18 month old buck has on his head doesn't correlate at all to future development. Other say that it does. Both site all kinds of theories and some facts. Both can find one single example that proves their point. The reason is because their is always an exception. The trouble though, is that in order to manage the population you can't wait until a deer is six year old to decide if you want him to breed. Almost everyone knows of a kid who was short all the way through high school and ten years later he was 6'2". We also know a kid that was 5'8" in fifth grade and never grew another inch. One side says that means we should harvest young deer ever. Personally, I say that while we know of exceptions, we also know that most tall kids in grade school will be tall adults and most short kids will be short adults. If that holds true for deer, then shooting spikes will limit their breeding to a portion of one season and most of them will not breed successfully, meaning that you SHOULD get genetically better bucks breeding for more seasons before they die. Those few deer that are exceptions should not outweigh the general rule. I read a private study conducted by the owner of a huge ranch in south Texas, where they caught deer using nets and helicopters and tagged them so they could track them. I don't remember exact numbers, but it was sown thing along the lines of about 10% of 18 month old spikes ever reached a score of 140" while 80% of 18 month old deer with 4pts or more reached a score of 140". To me, that shows that spike harvest is low risk/high reward. TPWD feels the same way. TPWD has done a lot of study in nutrition as well, and says that although poor nutrition can lead poor antlers, that even in the worst years at least some yearlings will not be spikes and therefore the very best of the age class will still e protected. I tend to side with them. Others tend to believe the exact opposite and think nothing should ever be shot until it's 5.5+. Still others fall in the middle. The only way is see managing deer by reducing poor genetics is todo it early and an 18 month old spike is the easiest way to do that reliably.

^^^ this info is only relevant to white tail

So why doesn't someone with the means to do it start catching a 1.5 YO four or six point off their property and a 1.5 YO spike every 5 years keep them in their breeding pens fed the same diet and score them every year and see what they turn into?

If I had the means and a sufficient enclosure I would do this in a heartbeat.

Its an option not a requirement

It should be a requirement and not an option

lol

If you want better bucks shoot the 1.5 yr old spikes and leave the 4 yr old and up 180" bucks to do your breeding

No I'm saying you aren't comparing apples to apples.
Your using a blanket management plan that wouldn't work for or is unattainable for 99% of the leases and ranches out there.

You aren't eliminating genetics if that was the case you would never have to cull again. What you are doing is managing for that exception, that top two percent of your herd(which you aren't doing via your pics).
The hole point of getting way way under CC is to be able to gamble with your top 2% at years 7.5 and 8.5.

There are ton of ranches that don't shoot spikes that still have the same top percent of deer as those that do. It's more about what they have in common then what they differ in.

One simply can't come out and say shooting spikes is the pinnicale of growing huge deer or even that you have increased your genetics on your ranch via it.

All you have done is state I have choosen to not feed those deer. And only care about retaining and feeding your top 2%.

If you are managing for the top 2% only then you are also eliminating a huge majority of you buck herd, not just spikes, your also gambling that your biggest 2.5 year old will be your biggest at full maturity (more or less the biggest each age class every year)

Shoot 4yo 180 inch bucks... I don't even have deer big enough to pass.

Agreed.

Does any one know what the biggest buck Dr. Kroll has grown?

The last time I checked, TPWD blew him away on the number of inches grown. Every range has a carrying capacity and its boils down to, who do you want to have the best chance to survive and continue to breed within your herd.

Care to elaborate on this meal? Sounds DELICIOUS!!!!

Biggest antlers means nothing because you separated by genetic potential of each herd.
If they used the same herd it would, but they didn't.

Like using my top ends scores of my old okla ranch to a central Texas or hill country ranch. Or south Texas to hill country or cross timbers ranches

The Kerr study cracks me up... What do you expect when you use a south Texas influenced genetics that weight 211 @ 3.5 years old vs hill country spikes... Then line breed them to their off spring

Show me a LF ranch in Texas you can't get under CC with just doe harvest.

? Not following on the TPWD part. He's been a cpl decades or so ahead of them on mgmt practices. A lot of what's happening in ETX currently can be directly related to ppl carrying his management philosophy from Boggy and applying it to their leases/property. He's not the deer savior by any means, but he has a pretty good resume.

Heck who knows, but surveys show our density to be a deer to 5 acres. According to biologist our density should be a deer to 15-18 acres. We have been shooting does heavy as in 9 last year and and 6-7 the year before (this is 320 acres) and our surveys showed a buck to doe ratio of about 1:2. I wouldn't suggest killing all does to get to cc we have taken to shooting a few spikes.

Is it right? I don't really know, we have non hunting farming neighbors so that kinda skews a lot of things for us.

What is the biggest buck Dr. Kroll has grown?

Aren't you surrounded by heavy ag? You have 64 deer calling your place home?

Any way that's 21 bucks 42 does.... your not on MLD so how many tags do you have? Which use of tags would be most beneficial right now.

Ag around you ups your CC, plus those deer aren't all core to that 320 acres.

No idea but it doesn't matter it's apples to oranges, actually is worse like birds to trees
But just to play here...What's the largest TPWD has grown? Is it bigger then 311 and 4/8?

And while you guys continue to debate the validity of the research, the hunters in East Texas just keep seeing increased numbers of good bucks.

I saw a buck this past weekend in East Texas that was exactly what a fellow hunter reported after seeing him a week earlier. He was the biggest buck both of us have ever seen alive and on hoof in East Texas.

Again is that a direct result of shooting spikes or a mind set of letting bucks mature and passing on immature deer?

Both.

However, based on my and the observations of others I know, not killing more spikes has increased the numbers of tall, narrow-racked bucks with antelope looking racks. They appear a mile high and six inches wide, obviously exaggerating. We all keep seeing small, antelope looking spikes, but for some reason, wait on someone else to shoot them. It's much the same mindset that hunters once had about shooting doe. Better to remove them early so they don't reach protection and keep breeding under the width restriction while their wider-racked peers are being harvested.

1/2 ag neighbor 1/2 pasture neighbor. We have over 20 positively identifiably different bucks from cam surveys centrally located in the place(but im sure some/several come and leave our property daily) and there are more deer that have been seen during season so far and that we know are still around from last year not counted in those figures. Living the dream/nightmare of trying to everything we can to manage a small low fence property... like herding cats.

No MLD but myself, and my dad and brother are active hunters with 5 deer each a license year. My wife and my brothers wife hunt some and if need be we will invite more. I think it is almost going to be better for us to let the numbers go to some extent, because if we put enough pressure on them to get them anywhere near CC the place will be so overpressured you wont see any deer.

Narrow racked bucks is more of an over all genetic trend and not a product of spikes. You either have the genetics for wide bucks or you don't. Just like you have the genetics to get to 200" or you don't. You can't cull genetics in or out of a herd. Or maybe you guys keep shooting the first legal buck so none of the wide ones make it to maturity.........

It's funny I've been watching a spike in now on his fourth year. He was a spike at 1.5 and now an 8pt over 21" wide. He was 12"wide 7 at 2.5, 18" 7pt at 3.5. He hasn't put on mass yet, but that area they typically don't until 5.5 and 6.5. I plan on taking him at 6.5 assuming he stays put. He is looking to be the ranch 45 year record for width.

Guess neighbor doesn't feed

The ag neighbor quail hunts and that is it. This year his fields have been planted in a grazer of some kind and he is running cattle. In other years he has farmed sweet potatoes, mellons, milo, and wheat.

Other neighbors feed corn only for the season and that's it.

Where game surveys done when neighbors where feeding?

Yes

On the survey how did age class break down?

Didn't tabulate those figures but we have a handful of bucks in the 4-5 age class probably 4. The remainder are split pretty even between the lesser age classes.

I think I will go out and kill a spike this afternoon for old times sake.

this spike? Now. Thanks all.

Wish I could come with you

as my son puts it, we don't shoot spikes.....we shoot "number 11" bucks!!!!

,

I would agree based on what I and others have seen since AR's were instituted in East Texas. Some deer just have narrow racks. But the connection with spikes and narrow racked deer is one that can only be proven or thrown out by hunters shooting more spikes. And I admit being a hypocrite in this, always leaving them for others to shoot, despite my best efforts to change my ways.

The sweet spot for taking spikes seems to be at 2-1/2, based on my own observations. If a buck doesn't grow TWO forked antlers during his second year, odds are he'll lag his better peers for life.

Unless a deer is ear tagged or has some other readily identifiable mark how on earth dose anyone know that a buck was a spike from the year before?

We had a little spike that looked like someone ran over his head with a lawn mower, ears were cut off flat about 1/2 way up. Very noticeable. 1.5 he had 2-3 inch spikes. At 2.5 he had a spike about a foot long and a big fork on the other side. Never saw him other than in TC pics from 2.5 on and have never seen him since. That was 3 years ago.

I don't disagree that shooting spikes can help the genetics of a herd, but I think that the degree to which it improves things is widely exaggerated. The main thing most hunters refuse to acknowledge is that a buck only produces 50% of its offspring's genetics (the doe is responsible for the other half). I don't know of a way to measure a doe's genetics in regards to antler quality, so that means by culling spikes you are only influencing half the genetic equation. I think making management decisions that improve the available nutrition, increase the number of older bucks in the herd, lower the population to carrying capacity or slightly below and get the buck to doe ratio close to 1:1 will have a much bigger impact on a herd's antler quality than culling spikes ever will. I'm not saying it won't help, but I don't think it makes anywhere near the difference that a lot of folks claim it does.

I have yet to find a so-called "browse line" that would indicate an overpopulation of deer in East Texas. However, every season I do find deer with plenty of fat while cleaning them.

The issue of an overpopulation of deer is the biggest lie ever pushed on the deer hunting community. If deer numbers were truly as high and out of control as some try to make us believe, hunting seasons and bag limits would be increased every year as needed.

Some you can't especially if you don't have the acreage. But the little things you notice can go a long ways like this bucks ear

Killing spikes or any inferior deer, will never improve genetics. It will only raise the average.

You going to respond to Texas Dan or not?

Technically it drops the avg. People always want to exclude those pesky little "culls", but that's what was killed, that's part of a ranch average.

But I don't see how letting them live would improve genetics either.

Yes sir you are tech. correct absolutely. Just saying people say it will improve genetics. Genetics can be only as good as your best breeder buck and your best genetic doe crossed.

Genetically, a buck is what a buck is, no matter what age you take him.
Antler restrictions will never impact genetics....right? Or am I dumb?
Wait, don't answer that.

that narrow rack gene is a permanent fixture in the doe herd, you aren't getting rid of it. I can assure you folks have tried to shoot it out on certain places and failed miserably. Deer still score well for the area, they're just in that 10-13" range. According to the old-timers, that's a characteristic of the actual native deer herd. Huge bodied, narrow racked, more orangish than grey.

Nah. Not worth the effort.

Unless that's an exception. Genetics will generally be what's average for the place. You can count on average, can't bank on the exceptions. (Says the person in search of the exceptions).

Notice that you did not say "your best breeder spike buck and your best genetic doe crossed". Why is that?

Soft ball pitching warming up!!!!

Throw a few strikes and I will swing at one of the once in a while.

Well I guess in a twisted perfect world, the best buck breeds the best doe really late, and the offspring buck barely breaks the skin in his first year and manages to breed another equal genetic doe to his mother. You could have a top of the gene pool offspring. Just sayin lol. I know I just opened a can of worms!

This is not what, I hope people think is a spike though

Bc a spike doesn't stay a spike, yet it is still a buck and could in fact be that highest scoring breeder buck in that particular age class. I took it as him including all bucks, from across the plains of Texas to the hills of Tennessee, from all walks of life and antler configurations.

Dr. Deer says:

http://www.drdeer.com/home/drdeer/public_html/uploads/ckfinderfiles/Spike%20Wars%20Part%203.pdf

Just how many breeders do you see breeding a spike as a breeder buck? Just how many do you see using a breeder buck that was a spike as his first set of antlers? They don't because they do not want to keep breeding that look. They have to difficult a time selling the offspring from sire as breeder bucks.
Those who never shot spikes or shoot them for a year or two do not know what can happen when you shoot them every year and never stop. Those who sell buck hunts don't shoot them since they can make more money selling bucks at older ages. All of them who have tried and quit can only speak about what they have done with not shooting them. I have been on both sides of this debate and can tell killing everyone of the long term has tremendous results. Shooting spikes is not a one time or year and done deal. This won't work on a small place unless you pool enough acres together to see the benefits. Most people are not committed enough to get that amount of acreage together on the same page and then continue to shoot them long term. Those who have done it long term know just how well it works.

Now that you mention that, since you've downsized acreage, have you continued shooting them?

and despite best efforts, the breeders still throw quite a bit of deer that could best be described as mgmt buck quality despite the known pedigrees.

Bammm
1-1
We got a tied ball game folks!!

Not enough of them to worry about since the few I have gotten pics of disappear never to be seen again before I get a chance at them. Nice to have spike hater neighbors

To be honest I don't have any strong opinions either way, we do not see spikes on our lease. We run 9 cameras on 3800 ac and we have not had a spike on camera in 3 years. I guess it may be luck. I can say I believe if all things are equal In age, that a spike vs a 10 at 1.5 would not be equal at maturity, but that's just a guess.

And they cull those and sell them other ranches who want improved genetics. A lot depends on the breeder also. What some sell as what you call "management" bucks are not the kind of genetics they want on their ranches. Those bucks would be 140-170 type 3 yr olds and the lower end of the age class.

Some of them won't even make 140 out in open pasture.

Depends on the breeder and his management in his pens. Bigger pens with good browse and food plots make a big difference. The success rate goes way up when done correctly with pure Texas deer.

How can you not meet expectations in a pen? With a documented herd? Lol

LOL I never had a documented herd on the ranches I worked on. We just looked at the yearling bucks and two year old sired by a buck. If the numbers were good to great then we kept all the does from the same breeding classes. Just like one would do in a pasture situation. If your young bucks look bad then shoot your young does. If they look great then shoot your old does.
You took those better does and bred them to the better younger bucks. If he was a so so buck at 2 and great at 3, his offspring carried the same traits. If he was great at 2 then he bred that look. If he was a big yearling then he would breed that look. We also looked at combinations that bred. Some crosses worked great and others did not. Some bucks just had superior genetics and no matter what doe bloodline was put in the pen the overall majority of the offspring were as good or better than their sire was at the same age. That is when you know you have a good bloodline. Did not need DNA to see results. That is similar to what you do in a pasture situation when you have a good ratio and need to remove bucks. You look for genetic traits in bucks. Same for does if the young age classes look great then you gamble on keeping as many of those does as you can. If your deer continue to improve it is because what you are doing has been working. If it isn't then it is time to review your plan and records.

Great until you cull turns into your stud.....

Never again.. I'll error on the side of caution and be heavy handed after I see what they have become at maturity. In the mean time I'll buy more feed.... Good news for me not my call anymore

He was a cull for a reason. If you want more that look like that at his age then keep him and breed him. If you want those that have superior genetic traits and potential that show it at 2-3 yrs of age then keep those deer. If you are selling deer for money then keep them all and buy a lot more feed. I would want yearling bucks that have 9 or more points instead of 2 or 3 as the norm. If you keep culling for that look on yearlings then it will start to repeat itself more often than it did before. Hard for buck you don't like to breed when you kill him before he gets a chance. You have broken part of his trait at that point. Then you work on doe side. Most people forget about doe management. The fact is when you start on a place you can do more by killing the right does than killing a couple of spikes( if you have to many deer and good ratio then you might start on them also) Most people want to start managing and culling bucks when they are not the real issue at hand. It is to many mouths and way over CC. I will take off doe numbers in most cases before I start really working on bucks. Less mouths create more food. Taking does lets bucks get some age on them and the increased nutrition shows what you really have as far as genetics. The fewer does can have just as many fawns as you did before with correct nutrition. Then once you get your doe numbers at a level you want then you work on bucks. Your fawn crops after you do that start to show.

Right up until he broke 200" ...two years after hit listing him....

Fact is even the best will always be suspised by the unexpected. just like the breeder can breed the exact two deer and have a very big difference in off spring. You will kill spikes because you will always bet the house on a few deer, not the wrong choice but not the right for others

I am betting the house that those few deer left will make it worth my while to risk it. The results speak from themselves. You will leave spikes hoping that 3% of them will make it look you really proved everyone wrong. If you left those spikes and I killed them we both would still have the exact same amount of top end bucks after the first few years. That is where the separation starts. You will still be banking on that 3% and I will be looking at much better overall herd quality from the yearlings to the mature bucks. Just the numbers will be better on my side of the fence.
Why do you want keep bucks till they are 6-7 yrs old? For them to mature and hoping they grow into the biggest trophy? I keep them so they can continue to breed as long as they can since I already got rid of the bottom end of their age class. I am firm believer in that if you like the way they look keep them, cause you will get more like them.

Your herd would have less numbers and be artificially reduced to show it has better quality. Reality is both sides of the fence will maintain the same quality, the one doing less culling will just have more deer. That's how it works in my hood where browse & water quantity isn't an issue.

In reality the herd would have just a many bucks and does in it only they would be better over all quality. I am talking 10 yrs down the line. Still would be shooting the same amount of deer off each year as it did in the beginning(if the LO wanted to keep CC the same). Just taking more and large upper end bucks every year. The upper end would continue to improve year after year due to the younger age classes continuing to improve. The herd top to bottom would look much better than a herd that does not take off younger bucks/lower % of the age class. That is how it worked in a herd where browse and water was not an issue. Until someone has seen the results and had a hand in how it worked, you do not know what can happen when shooting at a yearling age.

The problem lies in everyone wants a big deer, how many are going to hold out for an exception to be peak.
Regardless if you shot spikes or not your still going to have the exception. Inferior is a stupid term because in reality any deer that doesn't make the top 2% is inferior. You and I both know ranches where a 6.5 year old 150 deer is not even make it in the top 15 +% of the age class. Those ranches bread and butter feed bill is paid for by these deer....when we put this into lease perspective it gets ugly especially with the hunter densities we see

It all comes down to offering different opportunities to gamble on certain deer it also comes down to how heavy your deer densities are. We both know eventually you got to thin bucks or reach deeper in your pocket for feed.

The difference is you will be more heavy handed in the 1.5 age class, Id be more in 3.5 or even 4.5. Yours is more efficent because those deer are easier to find. Mine less margin for error(IMO)

No right, no wrong. Regardless every plan is capped at some point via tags.. Even more so for the average Texas leasee. As always these thread jump up and are started by average leasee where theory, management, and execution all theoretical and unattainable.

That is why when people starting shooting spikes along with does and see a "spike" in the over all herd quality they get worried. They think this spike they just shot might just be the next record buck and they stop. Does not take to long for numbers to go back up and then things return to normal. They just do not have the discipline to keep at it long term when they have the " more trophy's now" only mentality. Long term is when the results really show.
The only way this will work is to put enough acres together in a coop that has everyone on the same page.

I call a spike breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I'll just say this, when we finally got everybody to stop shooting everything that moved 15 years ago, and started focusing on taking does/spikes and letting bucks mature, we started getting record-sized deer (for our place). Between 1999 and 2007 I didn't shoot a buck that wasn't a spike. I took my best buck in 2009, a 5.5 yr old last year that was close, and a new personal best this year. Each of those deer was at least 25" larger than anything I'd previously taken dating back to 1980.

We're 9yrs in and have more deer than surrounding HF places that cull and have higher scoring upper end bucks and overall a better average, more does, more hogs and without released bucks breeding imported does. 5 seasons in on one place where absolutely nothing has been shot and produce better upper end deer than 13Kac MLD, and there's always the refuge that has recently started shooting does to get them off the 1 feeder and plot after years of sitting idle with the exception of a cpl special people being allowed to shoot certain bucks (4 over 30+ years) and it would outproduce everything I've seen in the area. People aren't changing anything, they're just killing more deer and getting the false impression that things are improving. When they conclude the helicopter culling research I expect them to give me a phone call and tell me I was 100% correct.