Thoughts on high fence ranchs?

Do yall think hunting 25k acres high fence is fair chase? Heard that people will say its like shooting fish in a barrel. just wondering what are yalls opinions on large high fence game ranches.

25k acres is a lot of property for sure. I use to own a 600 acre HF ranch and there were times I had trouble finding certain deer on it. 25k is certainly not fish in a barrel hunting.

Technically I do not think any HF ranch can be considered fair chase but there is certainly nothing wrong hunting a HF place (especially if it holds native deer) - you are going to get a ton of opinions on this thread so be ready for it

It's been so long!!! Thanks HunterGuy for starting the New Year off right!

I leased a 10K acre, high fence, pasture for 4 years. 'Great place. Several on here called it a "pen". One on here will cast aspersions on your wife over his opinion versus yours regarding high fence. True story.

Here we go!

Here we go again.



Fish in a barrel can be high fence or low fence.

Hmmm . . . .

IMO HF should be at least 1000 and maybe 2000 acres, but that's strictly personal opinion. Nothing scientific about it.

25k acres is HUGE.

Nowadays, what defines fair chase is left up to the hunter and others who follow the same tactics. I suspect those in the non-hunting majority would often define the term much differently.

It’s fair chase to me. I dont give a chit.

Is it fair chase to buy meat at the store? GTFO. Make meat. If the rack looks good get it mounted.

If you can afford to hunt a high fence place like that, it’s an achievement in itself.

Even if it’s not fair chase, who cares? 25k acres is not a penned animal. Would a public ground trophy mean more to me? Sure.

Bit if i had the disposable income i would have a freezer full of high fence elk.

There goes my chance to lose 5 more pounds. Darned popcorn

A pen is a pen no matter the size

The question should be is it ethical, and the answer is yes. And if you disagree, but you buy meat from the store, i guess you can’t know what you don’t know.

See what I mean?

There you go...having to hit on the crux of the matter. Well done!

Virtue signaling in 3… 2… 1…

I personally hate them - but it's not because of what is on the inside of it. If you want to shoot a 180-inch buck in 25 acres or 25k acres - your conscience - your money - you spend it.

My gripe about high fences is the disruptive nature and the impact it has on wildlife - outside the fence. I border about 2 miles of high fence and some areas of my ranch have not seen a deer since that fence went up. I understand deer (and other animals) are adaptive by nature and to a degree, they have. With that said, a deer doesn't put itself in a position with no way out (if you understand what I'm trying to say). Unfortunately, when that fence went up (roughly 10 years ago), it created areas that are not conducive for a deer to feel safe - I presume?? I have no other answers as to why deer have vacated those areas and will not come back. I realize my perspective will differ from others and the high fence guys are going to hate - I am just speaking from first-hand experience and the impacts that a high fence has on me, personally.

They probably fenced you out for a reason

there is the other side of the coin where the property is more diverse and better habitat for all species because its better managed and more inline with natures intentions.

well atleast you stop bashing the outfitter because you didnt get a bull

The overwhelming majority of Texas hunters cannot fathom what 25,000 acres looks or feels like, so it’s like asking someone is a 12 second car fast when most ride around in a 1/2 ton truck. You’re getting mostly speculated opinions based on no real experience

Something like 90% of properties in Texas are under 1200 acres so to throw out a number like 25,000 and ask if its fair chase is silly.


If you have access to it go hunt it, who gives a shyte what anyone else thinks. Hunters are always looking for ways to discredit other hunters. Lots of people think if you didn't kill an animal on OTC crowded public land its not a legit kill. Totally Asinine

No problem hunting HF to me. By the definition of free chase as I understand it, I don’t think it can be call that. I don’t worry much about it.

out side of the panhandle and west tx most places in Texas you are hunting < a 600yard diameter circle at most at any giving time, hill country its probably way less.

I would love to hunt 25,000 acres, so many places to hunt and hopefully different deer to be seen. If you ask me about a smaller high fence place, I don't think my answer would be the same.
Near our lease there is a 600-acre place that was sold 2 years ago. Always had hunters on the property. The new owner fenced 2 sides with high fence, he did not own the other. Makes no sense and there are no hunters this year. Know this is different type of comment than was expected but is still regarding high fence.

Free range and fair chase are different. By definition, technically hunting on an island like Newfoundland or Maui is not free range.

Fair chase simply means the animal has a reasonable chance at escape. In many instances that would entail walking 25-50 yards and they are in the woods and in the clear.



But, like yourself, I don't worry much about it.


Live, Hunt and Be Merry

What about turkeys???

Sorry, I had too lol

if a deers core areas is 800 -1100 acres and the ranch is 25k, and you can only hunt <10 acres at most at a time… how is the fence restricting its evasion. how many properties can you run a target buck down in a truck or on foot?

well if you are using FMJ’s and a trench with corn in it, is it ethical or efficient.

I would love to hunt 25,000 acres, so many places to hunt and hopefully different deer to be seen. If you ask me about a smaller high fence place, I don't think my answer would be the same.
Near our lease there is a 600-acre place that was sold 2 years ago. Always had hunters on the property. The new owner fenced 2 sides with high fence, he did not own the other. Makes no sense and there are no hunters this year. Know this is different type of comment than was expected but is still regarding high fence.

I find it almost funny that successful individuals will HF their neighbors so they can continue to be successful.

"Don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house"

Where do you find the two definitions you cite, one as technical? If these are your opinions, that's fine. We all own our hunting and can call it what we want. I have my own beliefs, but if I were looking for technical definitions as you cited, I'd want to know the source. Boone & Crockett comes to mind, if I wanted someone else's technical definition.

No dispersion,.
Hunt what you want but high fence is not free range. Fair chase- open the gate and let them flee while hunted then maybe fair chase.

Buying meat at the store is hardly a viable argument for high fence. We all know where that meat comes from.

Even 25,000 acres does not allow natural dispersion.. That fence affects animal movement to and from the property at some point.

B&C definition is their opinion, even then its open to interpretation. They also are a business, that fund raises off controversy.

Do you also support their definition of Climate change and their initiatives?


free range and fair chase are not the same… Or we could kill deer from a helicopter

My response was a question to TXTrophy on the source of his technical definitions. Had he cited a source, such as B & C, I wouldn't have asked. I only used B & C as an example of a known source. The only climate initiatives I am in favor of would be found on the platform of the Republican Party.

I have seen people pull big bass out of a managed stocked lake and be proud of them like they grew there naturally....and never heard one person say "well thats a stocked pond and not open to the public waterways". Most are just super proud about the catch and take pics, but some even mount them on a wall.


Why is a deer so different? They are still state of texas game....their rules still apply, but I guess people get their measuring stick out (and I am not talking about a tape measure) and get their feelings hurt when one comes from a stocked "pond" while another comes from the "great lakes"

As long as it is done legally, why do we bicker about where or how someone hunts?
I draw the line at illegal hunting. But anything legal, lets try to stick together and not give the anti's any fodder for their fight....and posts like this are most certainly seen by joe public.

So in TX with relation to whitetail deer, 25k/39 sections or greater than 6 miles squared doesnt exceed natural dispersal by majority for the majority of TX habitat?

Evan Mcoy did a Callaghan ranch study of 22 yearling bucks and they showed average of 2.7 miles with a low 1.2 miles dispersal. Not all bucks disperse though. The bucks that didnt disperse had a smaller home range also of those that did at a touch over a section.

mature buck home ranges- STX Callaghan 1200 acres- King 1600acres(via Michleson), ETX 240-880 acres(via Halls study). These numbers generally shrink the older a deer gets.

my point in this post is it is not as clear cut as people want to make….on either side of the debate.

The fence affects their natural ability to disperse regardless of size of the pasture.
Yes deer can learn to live within those confines but they can not disperse, if wanted, naturally.

At some point that fence affects their movement.
Lets say a wildfire breaks out, you think the fence won't affect their escape routes, it sure could.

Plenty of studies also done showing migration and how fences affect that, we can all site studies that support our cause.
What of those deer within that huge pen used to range from say just inside the new fence to outside on a neighboring property about a mile away? Now a fence cuts their range in parts, they learn to use the new pasture but still can not use their historical free range.
Those deer used to roam, now they stay within a confined area.
The high fence still affects free range and natural dispersion.

Interesting, I'd like to read these. Are they available to the public? I would really like to know the time of the year, amount of hunting pressure they were under and if the rut was in play. As you know, I hunt about 17k acres, low fence. The best hunting is near the property line. During the rut, all bets are off as to where the bucks are. They may be on our place pre/post rut, but leave if they get a whiff. So, my hunting would be made much easier with a high fence along this area.

yes just google tx dispersal

Dr Mickey Hellickson has a few summaries but main projects were done by McCoy, Hall and Kroll. I wish each property study include aerial overviews

I haven't found home range or dispersal study for your or my country yet, but beccause of farming fragmentation i bet its very large

Use the same argument and replace fence with city, or urban sprawl, or road, or whatever man made thing you want...bottom line, people affect animals and historic migration patterns are historic for a reason, but they do not make anything present or future.

Even birds with "free reign" of the migration patterns don't follow the exact same migrations every year and different areas will get hit better than others in the "historic migration zone".

if you exceed dispersal area you dont effect it, if you want to argue over the few outer fringe deer that are mostly likely to dispersal in ward to better habitat and feed, ok, but this subject was focused around an almost 40 section TX property

Texas deer dont roam in a western sense, if they did we wouldnt have home range deer studies on LF and piles of historical photos of age progression

Interesting, I did find one you cite. It stated that yearlings established new home ranges of the same size, from the center of their original home ranges during "Autumn". Also, the older the deer, the more likely they were to establish new ranges during "Autumn". This was only comparing yearling bucks to forked spikes. So, it stands to reason that a 4-5, even 6 year old is very likely to establish new ranges given the opportunity. No surprise there, we all know how big old bucks get to be big old bucks. A high fence would prevent this natural movement. It's like you just told DLLALLDER in the current active thread, that during the rut bucks follow the wind. A high fence stops this.

It’s his only way to matter on this forum in his pea sized brain …..

Dispersal happens at young age and that is it. Older bucks can and will travel during the rut, but essentially have a home base area they use during the spring-summer and fall-winter, usually not too far from each other and sometimes it is just s shrunk down area of the other. But oldr bucks do not go thru dispersal like young bucks do.

Why?

The purpose of dispersal is to prevent bucks from breeding their mom and sisters. This is a natural instinct to prevent (too much) inbreeding in the deer herd. An older buck who has already moved away from its mama and sisters doesn't need to keep moving to prevent inbreeding.

The very interesting thing in the genetics world we are finding out is it is very likely bucks won't breed their progeny. How or why this is probably relates to the glands and hormones, and the amazing senses deer have, but in large genetic studies over generations, there has not been any identified cases where a buck bred a doe he created in a previous generation...I do not know if they looked for intragenerational breeding in that study, but the study mentioned in thousands of genetic samples, of known deer, not one case of inbreeding was discovered. Pretty impressive what nature does, even on high fence ranches where these studies have been conducted.

no it focus’s on yearlings because autumn is when they are kicked off momma, this is the action of dispersal we are talking about,

Mature bucks dont disperse, Rutting grounds is still with in home area, You can look up rutting area size also, its covered in home and core studies. Home and core over lap. Older a buck gets the smaller his home and core range become. Proven by a multitude of studies. You are hypothesizing that deer core area changes, it doesnt, unless habitat is lost. Now they may not use part of it because of more dominate buck, pressure or predation issues(like lion moved in) but it does not change overal

My comment was factual in how Bucks scent check locations with in their home range when in rut. Nothing more nothing less.

No it’s not a pen and anyone who thinks with logic and not emotion would agree…. But many hunters let emotion drive their thoughts and actions. They also get emotional about their lack of success and the High Fence argument is a way to make themselves feel better…..

The hunter that understands the true goal of wildlife management with high fences is to keep deer out, not in so the land isn’t overgrazed….

in theory it could be a Pen if it constricted its home range well below Normal, there for it lacks free-range AND if habitat allowed for you to survey from truck or foot it removes fairchase. But in terms of this thread and 25k acres neither condition for a pen is met.

The AND part is the biggest part to make it a pen. The first part defined free range. If I can drive around and “without” mistake and count every animal, it lacks fairchase, and Id call that a pen.

I have a friend thats trying to kill every whitetail this year on a 900 HF. I dont think he gets it gone, way too thick. Especially since he has already exceeded his initial survey by 50%. I would not call this a pen. How can it be if you cant define or kill everything thats on it.

Does he need help? Lol

Heck, I once hunted a 60 acre pen for hogs that were trapped and put there (talk about captive game, if you want to call pigs game animals and not just nuisance animals)....had two groups covering the 60 acre pen and not one of us even shot a pig, only shot came on one pig running across a road and it was a clean miss.

There isn't anything wrong with hunting in a HF as long as you know what you are getting with the hunt. something advertised as a fair chase hunt in a 10 acre enclosure with scant habitat is not what it is advertised. I would have no problem with advertising of a 25K acre enclosure saying it was fair chase (even tho I know it couldn't be entered into any books, I am not into that kind of thing anyway, just clarifying for the purposes of this discussion and the intent/definition of free chase), even with scant habitat. It is all what you want out of the hunt. Some want to show up and shoot something. Some want the thrill of whats out there. Some want the excitement of a big buck down and some are just happy to see and take pictures of deer..

As long as its legal, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Lol, he has all family and friends working on it. Its a really cool place. Im pumped for him and his family.

Plenty of record book deer in St. Louis, urban drawn hunts every year because of the traffic accidents and property damage. Those bucks are beyond tame. You better stay out of his way, a rutty buck in the suburbs with no fear of man is a hazard.

But hey they are “free range” and it’s “fair chase” but completely isolated geographically.

And even a single strand of barb wire gets a funny look from a pronghorn. That is why there aint dead pronghorns all over the county roads like whitetails in the rut. I bet the western hunters can vouch for that lol

Not saying pronghorns don’t cross fences but i have never seen a whitetail exhibit any consternation about jumping a typical “low” fence.

Not sure what you mean about the pronghorn, fences can affect their migration in extreme snow events. Sheep wire also can affect their movements and why we have areas without it along migration paths.
Seen many jump barbed wire fences and go under, they know how. Throw in say 4 feet of snow and see what happens.
Those city deer are free to roam outside the limits, no high fence keeping them there. Now slap a high fence around that town and see what happens.

Good discussion actually, I enjoy the discourse. Good points made by many here on both sides.

I'm not against high fence but do understand how it can affect natural animal movement, regardless of pasture size. And no I would not call thousands of acres a pen by any means, but put a high fence around it and it is affecting animal movement and dispersion, even if on the edges or fence lines.

I have only seen a handful of times, never when pressured though, I dont think their gait allows them to jump much when running. Every one I've seen jump, tried through first and then jumped over.

with that said I don't have a migratory herd,

I have pulled in to a section trap, shut the gates, pull my truck in front of low water crossing and watched them run in a circles testing new fence. Its someone entertaining until i remember who gets to patch the fencing they tear up.

I see it all the time on the road. I know that is why we don’t have so much roadkill of pronghorns. You can ride down the highway and see a pretty massive herd of pronghorns and no roadkill. But whitetials? All the time.

I hit a whitetail on I-35 south this year maybe 8-10 miles south of Minneapolis. In a little suburb called Lakeville I think. At peak traffic hours too, people flying passed me on the shoulder etc. Even a big interstate like 35 is literred with deer carcasses right now all through the midwest.

Pronghorns? Rarely. I am not convinced they are that much smarter, I see them all the time when i run out west.

Bad news folks, looks like we're sending some COLD down your way next week or so.
That dreaded polar vortex is materializing.
Stay warm.


Got your point now BCH.
I was very surprised on a pronghorn hunt down in NM one year. Stopped to watch a decent buck cross the road and he cleared the fence I though he would go under like it wasn't there. Left me laughing. I adjusted the way I usually hunted by knowing they would jump down there.
Honestly haven't seen that in Wyoming as of yet. They all try to go under up this way. Smooth wire on the bottom really helps them.

I have seen antelope round ups, for collaring where they can and do jump the 10ft enclosure fence.

I know they can clear a fence, I have seen it too. But not without some consternation. But I have never seen a whitetail stop at a fence, look at it, and crawl under. I think pronghorns have to be motivated by something more to even try.

Guess there are clowns in every forum...

25,000 acres is 40 square miles. Men have literally gotten lost and died in parcels of land far smaller than that between improved roads. Highly motivated men, who were experienced in orienteering and in the best shape of their lives, carried two military compasses, and probably studied that map and drew in boundaries and check points all over it. When it comes right down to it, most people have no understanding of what 25,000 acres looks like. But apparently a whole lot of public ground deer will spend their entire lives inside a quarter of that.

That high fence would not impede anything inside of it. It impedes everything and everybody else that wants what’s inside of it.

Not that anyone cares but they have their reasoning;
The Boone and Crockett Club defines fair chase as the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals. In 1983, the Club adopted a policy that made whitetail deer and other species taken in escape-proof enclosures ineligible for its records books.
1 acre or 50,000+

Well, we all know of deer that have escaped a high fence ranch, so does that by definition mean a high fence ranch is OK?

Asking for a friend…..

And that is important if you worry about your name in a record book.

Fences and walls don't work to keep animals in or out. Heard the demrats that live behind or inside them say so.

I for one have no issue with B&Crockett's rules or record book. Qualifying an animal for their book is super rare and difficult and I have been proud for years to have done so. IMO it is not bragging or vane - it is an acomplishment

Well said. Recognition is a basic human need. Anyone that has ever posted a picture, shared a successful hunting story that they are the subject of, etc.....is satisfying their need for recognition.

I also think/know if someone had a 25,000 high fence ranch; with one fence surrounding the property, there are going to be multiple fences within the high fence to “channel or funnel “ deer or cattle to a specific location. Feeding is usually done at specific places. Properties operating for a profit are not going to have multiple Joe Blows coming different days of the week, and not know where the deer or game is located on that 25,000 acres. The Cotton Mess ranch, which is 10,000 acres will make sure you get your $4500 elk or $75,000 elk… you choose, you go, you shoot. And B&C will not recognize those elk.

I personally look at it as shooting livestock, so I have no interest.

I don't care what others choose to do with their land and their livestock.

I don't understand one thing though.

If i have a feeder on 3 acres and erect a high fence entrapping a few deer, TPWD will probably cite me or make me release those deer at a minimum.

Is there a minimum acreage where it becomes legal?

But livestock are not state property like deer are....so making the semantics jump from a texas controlled game animal to livestock is a really lazy argument.

Now if you are talking exotics behind a HF, then you can talk all day long about them being nothing more than livestock, because the state has stated they don't care about exotics....

Modern bows, rifles, scopes, ammo, feeders.... whats the difference?

I actually agree, see my 2nd post.

Guess what I should have said is hunting inside a high fence "feels" like shooting livestock IMO. I'm not necessarily saying its always easy.

I certainly think hunting on a 25k high fence property would be a fair-chase hunt, its not like you are going to corner an animal on 25k acres with nowhere to escape.

I just don't understand how someone fencing in a state owned deer on small acreage is treated any differently than larger high fence ranches.

They are virtue signaling. Most of the time, anyway. The rest are just jealous.

Send them on an all expenses paid trip, i promise they will make meat and make a trophy. Might still poo poo it on the internet

I have actually hunted a Texas +-25k HF ranch. There was no funneling or HF cross fences. Just perimeter fencing. One of the harder hunts for WT’s Ive been on

I hunt a CO LF ranch and pass a min of 10 200-330 archery bulls… every year. We have killed 3 370 bulls in two years. Biggest difference CM is cheaper, and you can grab a rifle in archery season. Success rates per weapon are about the same.

B&C is a JOKE. It has completely lost its way. The whole point of the scoring system was to highlight areas with exceptional age class, nutrition and genetics. Now you pay to enter your paid for trophy to highlight yourself not the animal or management/conservation efforts.

No difference between that and hunting a truly large Texas ranch that uses similar management practices. The ones with the deepest pockets will always have the best access to the best properties.

There is no such thing as guaranteed kills without a truly penned animal. But there are some that won’t take your money unless you are successful.

there are assumptions and reality. Taking a perception and using it as a blanket approach is mental gymnastics at its lowest.

There are no doubt, over stocked pens out there but there are also LF operations that offer similar or same success rates as the majority of HF operations.

That statement about money is for the most part, true; big money gets big trips, get big opportunities, gets giant deer, elk, fish, bla, bla, that even applies to high fence. I don’t think that’s a debate. Nothing wrong with it; just life.

I agree with you. But what about the blanket statements coming from the other side? Like “a pen is a pen”. The primary motivation behind this mindset, is “i am a better person than you because i think it’s unethical to hunt behind a high fence”. IMO it’s no different than a college kid with a bunch of anti-et cetera stickers on their laptop.

It’s like anti-hunters. Most eat factory farmed meat. It’s virtue signaling pure and simple.

Edit- i should probably add, just because you have the best access to the best property doesnt mean a better hunter can’t outdo you somewhere else, with less.

Nothing brings out either pure jealousy or an inferiority complex better than a discussion about High Fences....

High fences are a tool a land owner uses to get their desired outcome....sometimes that is bigger buck antlers. Sometimes that is keeping "brown its down" shooters from ruining a management plan, sometimes it a paid hunter that pays dearly to enable the property owner to continue owning said property. Lots of reasons, but they all have an end goal in mind. No one just PUTS UP a high fence "just for the fun of it".


People on this forum that complain about high fences are still using high power rifles, with scopes and in texas most are hunting over a feeder that is filled with deer food. These are things others in other states see as much an advantage as some in TX see a HF for shooting bigger deer. To take the example a little further, none of us are chasing a deer off a cliff or strangling them with our bare hands or doing anything "au naturale"...we all have advantages of some sort and each state determines which advantage they want to make legal and which to make illegal. As long as we are abiding by the rules set forth by the state you are hunting in, have at it, enjoy, and don't bad mouth anyone for doing what they want legally.

All the high fence hunts are outside my budget. A well managed low fence hunt is way out of my budget. And i just don’t have time to find and manage a lease. But i don’t look down on anybody else that can.

I spend a precious few hours every year on public ground near my home and i have seen a buck that anyone would be proud of. But I am always trying to save/plan for a paid hunt, high fence or no fence whatever fits my time and budgetary constraints. It just never works out. I am not gonna let that turn me against those who can. I hope one day i can afford to go on a $30k guided elk hunt on a big no fence place.

I feel like the gist of it is high fence or high horse, pick your side

Just FYI, a big elk hunt doesn't have to cost 30K....you can get into a really nice elk hunt for around half of that for a real chance to shoot a monster (375-400+), and if willing to shoot something in the 300' range for around 9K up in OK, with food and lodging and beer/wine too.

Don't let the high rollers fool you, an elk can be had for much less than 30K. Of course there is also NM or COL public land with much lower success rates and DIY hunting, lodging, food and processing....

I feel pretty confident i could at least kill a cow elk on a OTC tag with my bow. Just based purely on my land nav skills and willingness to explore. When you think you might be lost the fun is just getting started. But only if i had a couple weeks to figure it out and seal the deal.

I am planning to attempt an OTC archery elk hunt.

I have actually hunted a Texas +-25k HF ranch. There was no funneling or HF cross fences. Just perimeter fencing. One of the harder hunts for WT’s Ive been on

I hunt a CO LF ranch and pass a min of 10 200-330 archery bulls… every year. We have killed 3 370 bulls in two years. Biggest difference CM is cheaper, and you can grab a rifle in archery season. Success rates per weapon are about the same.

B&C is a JOKE. It has completely lost its way. The whole point of the scoring system was to highlight areas with exceptional age class, nutrition and genetics. Now you pay to enter your paid for trophy to highlight yourself not the animal or management/conservation efforts.


The B&C deer I shot was on a LF ranch that I worked my butt off to manage properly along with many conservation efforts. My entering my deer with them had nothing to do with "highlighting" myself but rather to share with others what good management can produce. I share pictures on this forum for the same reason.

Short answer is no, it is not fair chase. Before someone wrongly misinterprets my answer. There is no jealousy or ill will towards high fence hunting on my part.

Brian, you should consider saving up about $6k and going to Namibia. I've done so 5 different times, 4 of those were on "management" hunts consisting of 10 cull animals they want you to shoot. I shot over 60 head of red hartebeest, gemsbok, impala, wildebeest, springbok, zebra, and a few kudu. The place I hunted had 40k high fenced acres, and 500k low fenced acres to hunt your asss off for 8 days. No shooting from the truck, all spot and stalk. Including airfare I was around $6k per hunt. It is an unbelievable experience, and by the way, I never even saw the high fence while hunting that property. You can go 2-3 times for the cost of that trophy elk hunt, or mule deer hunt anymore.

This one has remained entirely too civil.

Welp we all either grew up some and/or changed our minds on it. A few new members that don’t know better would get the pot stirred up.

difference between you and I. I have never entered or posted mine. Infact I dont post dead pics of anything, Just live pics of specifically “midsized” deer to help with aging. I get you are proud of your lease and its accomplishments, but remember perception isnt always fair.

Im all for John Doe entries.

I always wonder reading these posts. Why don’t you post dead pics? I know I won’t change your mind but know many would love to see them. To each their own I guess we just aren’t in the click.

Well if i ever kill anything that qualifies for a record book of any kind, i will be that guy. It will be on facebook and all the forums. Every chance i get i will say “remember that one time…”. God help us all if i ever kill a record book whitetail on public ground with my trad bow. I will be on every internet forum telling something along the lines “all you need is a 50 pound bow and a hunnerd grain muzzy or a zwickey on there”. Big if but if it happens, just better stand by for my shenanigans!

And i will use my name!

Most people would post a true B&C record breaker. Human nature.

I hog hunted an 850 acre high fence that had stuff like blackbuck, scimitar oryx, fallow deer, elk and native deer, but they didn't want hogs. Hogs got in via a hole in the fence and with the fence mended came the task of dealing with hogs. I can't say that being inside the fence made an iota of difference to the hunting. There were enough trees and elevation changes that it would not have mattered that much if it was high fence or low fence. Most shots were inside 150 yards and then the hogs were gone. They seemed very good at finding places to hide and even the landowners hardly saw them in the daytime despite working the ranch.

Getting on hogs on any given night was anything but a sure thing. The only benefit I felt about hunting at the high fence was that I knew any hogs I didn't get this time likely would be there next time, possibly more if sows have given birth.

1) is it relative and relatable or ego.
2) not worth loosing access or poaching
3) whats the benefit?

I entered my mule deer, but not the antelope. Guess I'm 50% guilty as charged.

I read every post of this thread. I am amazed at the lack of judgemental posts. But glad to see it.

One of my favorite things is life is my customers sending me pictures of animals they've taken. Maybe they came out for training, maybe load development and ammo, maybe both. But we've built at least some sort of relationship, at any rate. Pictures of men holding something they killed. Pictures of their wives and children holding something they killed. Huge smiles on everyone's faces. I am their biggest cheerleaders and giving out congratulations every time.

Not once have I asked if any animal came from a high fence or low fence piece of property. I do not care. And it would be rude to ask.

actually more and more dont. Kills draw odds, causes Loss of leases, poaching etc.

You know how many leases on this forum have been lost or experienced big price increases because of photos(cleaned and uncleaned) ?

My rocky mt bighorn is in the book. Taken on a DIY hunt, am I proud of it, yes I am.
I wanted our area to get some recognition for the management they have done on the sheep herds, book sheep get taken in there and it is a DIY type of area.
My book pronghorn is not listed even though it also comes from an area not known for trophy animals.

Good point BOBO on the loss of leases and poaching, yep some folks will do almost anything for a chance at a book animal. and money talks with most folks too.

Not that my opinion matters out side of me, but as you highlighted Sheep still fall under the original B&C methodology IMO, even with LO tag a net 175 sheep wasnt raised. You also arent messing up draw odds.

If someone asked me if my kills are HF/LF, I wouldn't consider it rude at all, but that is my personal feeling on the subject. It is a detail of the hunt not unlike how long have you hunted this deer, was it during rut, how often has he been seen, was your shot opportunity quick, what was the range, details of the habitat, do you feed protein, etc..........I like to hear, and share hunting stories, every detail, only because I love hunting. Knowing what all went into a hunt allows me to put myself into the kill and share the experience.

You put a lot of yourself into doing what you do well and post pic's of really good shooting. You developed and loaded it yourself spending a lot of time and gaining experience for your craft. If I were to post a pic of a great group, and brag about it (as I often do), would you not be interested in if I loaded it myself, or bought it off the shelf? Just as you are eat up with reloading and developing loads, I am with hunting. That's my only interest in knowing if a kill was HF/LF.

I've enjoyed the civility of this thread.

I never thought about it, because I never thought I'd have the chance. My taxidermist tells me that 170 is the minimum for typical, and that mine is close. It likely won't qualify, I have him at 168-7'8. Either way, I won't enter it in anything. I know, my hunting partners know, my family knows, that's all that matters to me. That said, IF I ever really crush the qualification (200"?) I'd enter it only so that Texas, and my county get recognized. Nobody reading the list would know who I was, but they would definitely recognize the Texas Panhandle.

100% agree with this. I don't care where it come from and I'm happy for most everyone...even folks I don't like LOL! A lot of time and effort goes into killing a big animal, regardless if it's a paid hunt, HF, LF etc. I think asking is rude and appears to be a way to cheapen someone else's accomplishments and my parents taught me a lot better than that.



I'm with you on the lease thing. Paid hunts, I'll post pictures even though I probably shouldn't...but I like the guides/outfitters and figure it will help them. Likely all I'm doing is increasing that price too

Some outfitters have a social media policy. Publicity may cause bigger issues(their leases, or poaching).

I've got a few animals I'd like to harvest.

Not wanting to leave the U.S. to do it, I'm probably going to end up in a high fence, in Texas.

The plan for this year, is one on the list. It will be the first time I've ever hunted inside a high fence. If there are some people that don't look at it as fair chase, they are free to have their own opinion. But I don't have to care about it.

I want no part of a livestock shoot. A friend of mine went to a ranch a few years ago, and he said they had to really hunt. And they got busted three times before a shot was made.

As with anything else, it’s an individuals perception. I have personally “hunted” in a high fence one time and will not go back, and no funding isn’t the issue. Have even passed on work related paid for hunts/trips that were free. Some ranches I think do a great job of making the hunting experience wild and challenging, as a lot probably are. But others have a photo/price list as a means of advertising. That I feel makes the “hunt” seem a lot less like a hunt and more like a shoot. As with my one and only personal experience, sitting in a stand hunting whitetail while emu, ostrich, zebra, and other animals I had no clue what they were piled into the feeding area did not feel like a hunt to me. Putting an acreage number on what is fair chase and what isn’t is impossible. Terrain and other factors play into how far a deer will range in different areas. There have been collared deer in areas that go many more miles than anyone ever believed. I don’t remember exactly, but I think the MS river deer were in the 20-30 mile range. So, how will we ever really know?

Neighbors have HFed 84% of the ranch I have hunted for the past 18 years. Guessing here my worth is down to 16%.

I've told out of staters a section of land around me can be a great big, nice habitat.

A section of land north of Dalhart isn't much. You can see the entire section standing in the bed of your pickup.

I've read that the first time the U.S. Calvary saw the Llano Estacado it scared the crap out of all of 'em. It took Mackenzie to figure out how to stop letting the Comanche lead them out on it to die of thirst.

Yessir. Charles Goodnight also kept a whole lot of people from dying out there.

It was also called "an ocean of grass". And people felt just as intimidated just as much as being stuck in the middle of the ocean.

Funny, I always thought WTX MD where dumb, then tried to stalk one and got busted three times. Next listened to the old man and drove buggy to 250 yards , High shoulder shot and watched his chin hit the ground. In a a buggy they pay little attention. Start walking at them from 400-500 yards, they gone.

Im a QTR HF currently due to large and growing solar farm

Marfa, TX Pronghorn. I asked the guide "what happens if we try to close on foot?"

He asked "do you know how a Pronghorn defends himself?"

"Yessir, with their eyes and their speed."

He said "If you leave the truck on foot, they will haul azz. You've got to shoot from the truck."

Check

Shot one farther than I really wanted to, because I know what can go wrong on that shot. It all worked out fine though.

I killed my WTX MD at 40'...walking. 'Nother at 50 yds....walking.

simple question.
What's the reason for high fence ?

Rich folks have rich ways.

oh TXshter shot one 5x at 50 with a woundmatic, with that said he also couldnt shoot a 30plus in aoudad one time because he couldnt see over the grease wood. Some people have a distinct natural camouflage advantage in certain terrian

Ive taken so many pictures of WTX mulies at under 100 yards, but as soon as you get out of the buggy, bye bye. Weirdest thing ever

How big were they?

Fair chase for what critter?? I think a number of folks in the middle of this thread have highlighted the home range and dispersal size of deer and that within a 25k HF many deer would never even see the fence and natural pattern of life would be observed. I don't have the numbers but for African game and naturally migratory critters a 25K HF could prove disruptive... but maybe no more so than the unnatural flora/fauna and weather that they are introduced into.

Personal context: I've been on a 1500ac place looking for a Kudu (for viewing pleasure) and it was next to impossible to find him from the ground!

To add some context to the size of a 25,000ac place--- as someone said previously that is 40 square miles... which is massive, would cover half of the Fort Knox tank training area where the army trained Tank DIVISIONS.

Perspective depends if you are realistic about it. 25,000 acres is only a little less than 6.3 miles by 6.3 miles. Every year we have bucks with summer and winter ranges that are 3-4 miles apart. That is in the piney woods in exceptional habitat. In big open farm land in the Midwest there are documented cases of GPS collared whitetail bucks annually wintering in excess of 60 miles from their summer range. So yes, if you are honest about your assessment, a game proof fence around 25,000 significantly alters natural dispersion and movement. If that were not the case there would be no logical reason to put the high fence up. Game proof fences are costly. Their purpose is to curtail movement into or out of the fenced property that would otherwise naturally occur.

Smokey, not trying to take your numbers out of context for what they are, but the deer lab at MSU just released some impressive numbers of distances a deer ranges and AVERAGE acreage covered by a buck in the rut was 1600 acres. They had it broken down into 2 week intervals of pre rut, early rut, late rut, post rut, found the distance travelled during the rut was aboyt the same for esrly peak and late, but the daily distance was less in early and late. This data was from the region of MS where there is great mix of ag, forest, and open prairie, so typical of texas for the most part.

The data was interesting to say the least, and while they had exceptions, those averages would suggest 25k acres wpupd certainly be within the realm of never seeing a fence line for a lot of the deer in that enclosure.

Other studies have been done. The home range of a deer throughout it’s lifetime can be far smaller than 1,600 acres. Here is the first thing I found when i googled “size of home range of whitetail deer in lifetime documented”

https://deerassociation.com/new-data-buck-home-range-size-age/

According to this data you could high fence a 1,000 acre spot, manage it well, and most of those deer may never see the fence. So why high fence at all?

The best reason I can think of is to protect the land and the game you invested your hard work and money in, from everything and everybody that is willing to damage it.

As many of you know, I HF'ed 940 acres of my ranch last May. So far I'm very pleased. I signed up for MLD and was able to take out some undesirable deer. No big ones this year because the oldest bucks I have are 3yr olds, and for the first time in 25 years, they're all still here. I want to grow big bucks with big antlers, that's my goal. I tried it for 25 years without a HF, and it just don't work, at least in my area. Just too much hunting pressure. My regret is, I didn't do it sooner.

Good for you! I did it on 600 acres some years ago and enjoyed every minute of it.

???

I will take research done by a bunch of college kids for what it is. Research done by a bunch of college kids…
It is nonsense. If you have spent much time in a place with strong older age classes of bucks you already know that. You have seen the large bachelor groups of mature bucks that spend the summer together. Then shortly after their antlers harden. Well before the pre rut, they disburse. They absolutely do not ALL stay on the same 1,600 acres where they spent the summer. That is factual. If you have a sparse population of mature bucks they are not forced to travel as far to find an area with a doe population they can dominate. Where data is gathered has a great influence on the data that is gathered. More factual stuff. Add to the equation that quite often the buck with the most impressive headgear is very often not the most physically imposing buck in the herd and you lose some great younger or less dominant bucks to the neighbors. Even on very large places with strong mature age classes. That is a reality of low fence hunting that does not happen in high fence scenarios and the basis for my comments.

Smokey knocks it outa the yard again. .

Boggy Slough had some great research pre and post fencing……

There are a Magnitude of Home range studies that suggest 25k acres is well with in most dispersal and Home range studies for any part of the state, including a large chunk of the High plains.

Home range and core range cover fall festivities. Thats not just one study, We are talking dozens.

almost every study was done by a college kids working on post graduate degrees….. Lets just ignore that all suggest similar and repeatable findings….

Whatever. I hunt about 600 acres and eagerly share video and game cam shots of deer others never see.

This but one of them and I think they would’ve recognized him.

And thats pretty much the summarization of about dozen home and core range studies

you can have properties with in miles of each other with difference HR areas strickly based off lack of cover. Excavators and greatly inlarge home areas

Every time I see the word research I lose interest in whatever the person is saying. The knowledge from folks who visit the woods isn’t even comparable to folks who live in the woods.

Yep, for sure. Wildlife researchers teach, wildlife managers have to prove success for their existence.

I just walked over and took this from my bedroom window. Maybe I should write a paper about it

I guess I’m trying to play both sides of the fence.
I value Smokey’s perspective, always, so i like to compliment him when he takes time to elaborate on his boots on the ground experiences. Same with the clown. Much respect for both.
I also believe a lot can be learned from studies, including the home range stuff.
At the same time you have to be careful to pay close attention to all factors about any study.

I don’t say this to be antagonistic but “who cares?”

It’s a personal question that only you can answer.

Most of us are hunting over a feeder or food plot anyway, which looks and feels the same whether you’re high or low fence.

People who hate on high fence are just bitter they don’t have one.

In other words, I’m gonna make you feel bad for what you have because I can’t get it myself.

This is exactly it but the a$$clown and bitchfork can’t handle when someone states their view if it doesn’t fall within their beliefs.

Not all HF ranches are created equally. Recently spent a week on 1100 acre HF with native deer. Of all the guys hunting, 4 whitetail were seen with none being shooter bucks. During that time 10 different hunters entered the woods and only 2 saw deer. It wasn't all 10 at once but still 10 people over 7 days and 4 deer seen.

I have also done a management hunt on a 500 acre HF ranch and had my pick of bucks every day I was there, 5 days in total.

Geez Bobo. Said another way, the amount of acreage required for each deer is roughly the same. That is not the issue. The location of that acreage not always being contained inside one ownership or whether the aggregate acreage is even contiguous is the rub. Professionals do their own research and development rather than rely on papers college kids write to receive their degrees.

Only problem I have with Hi-Fence is they're inability to keep their critters inside their fence. We've got 2 Exotic ranches nth of the big ranch and escapee's have already started populating neighboring ranches. I've seen Blackbuck, Axis and Fallow on the big ranch and the neighbors ranches. Every time we get a hard rain, we get more escapee's through their water gaps. Not sure how much they play into the Aoudad increase but I'll bet a few of them have escaped also, both brought in Aoudad.

I agree with this completely, especially when oceans are used instead of conventional fence wire.

And almost anything they import to our pen from Africa causes problems.

I don't think that there is a universally accepted definition of fair chase hunting? For some, if the property is high fenced, then there cannot be fair chase. For others, the size of the high fenced property is a determining factor. And there are others too, whose definition includes that, regardless of the height of the fence, finding and taking a shot at the animal should not be a certainty on any given day.

There are so many factors that could influence the outcome of a hunt including the skill and fitness of the hunter, the type of terrain, the method of hunting employed, the type of weapon used, the max shooting distance a hunter imposes upon himself, game numbers in the area, hunting pressure, size of property and more. I don't know your situation with regard to the above but I do know some species that like thick bush are able to play cat and mouse with a hunter on foot in an area smaller than that covered by 25 football fields never mind 25,000 acres - low or high fence. And if the hunter were to be using a compound bow, traditional bow or even a spear then it may take a number of seasons to be successful - if ever. I'd think that even though the animals are confined by a high fence, a fair chase hunt is possible on that property of 25,000 acres and even on far smaller high fenced properties.

I used to not like them, but after buying our own ranch last year and passing on younger bucks, I am seeing the need for the high fence just so the bucks can grow to a mature age.

We are not seeing any mature bucks this year in Duval County after passing on a lot of younger bucks last year. Nothing lives long enough in our area of Duval County to grow up!
Very sad. Now, it's one thing if you stock your own deer/exotics but I don't agree with those who lock up the State's natural resources and claim they are their own. That is wrong.
We live in Jackson County and that has happened a lot around us in the past few years.

Also, it has been a weird year for the rutt in Duval County.....everything is still too green so deer aren't hungry and we have had no cold weather.

Disappointed and thinking hard on that high fence as it seems to be the only way we will be able to see a difference. Unless you own thousands of acres, you can't manage
your deer population without the help from your neighbors and they don't care.

If you were starting your own hunting operation on 25k acres that you owned, would you be willing to release breeder bucks worth several $100,000.00's inside 25 k acres LF? That's a serious question from one serious hunter to another.

I agree. We live in Jackson County and high fences going up around us. Sad to see native whitetail trying to get out or get in because they've been using that trail for years.
It's not right for someone to pen up the State's natural resources and claim that they are "now their deer". If you want to high fence, buy your own deer and your own exotics.

Why would I do that, its a concept that simply doesn't work? Native would wash them out very quickly, they would probably live whole life on ranch and die there, but genes would wash out.

I would do a DMP pen and gene swamp using 1-4 bucks on 10-15 native does a piece . I would never have to release a paid for buck. And yes if it was legal to do DMP release on LF still I would absolutely do it, Id most likely use native bucks though, Anyway ranches still do this exact thing in Mexico with mule deer and Whitetails. In fact alot of the historic big deer TX LF ranches use to do it.

Ive already owned majority of a ranch north of the Red that produced 8 gross and 4 net deer. 2 which grossed 200 NT, 100% LF/native deer. My opinions are not theory. When I took over we never had a deer over 150. It wasnt hard because of genes we had, just had to foster what was there, and improve/optimize food choices, biggest thing was just getting history on deer and putting hard 6.5 year min harvest age.

so if someone kills all the deer out and restocks you are cool?

@ Bobo: Thanks for the answer.

Im not a breeder guy, but I see value of a fence, for multiple reasons outside of deer. Cattle and general neighbor issues being a big part. If I had money to fence my ranch now I would but it has a completely difference use, I would fence out all wildlife(deer, elk and pronghorn) to increase winter crop yields. I have high winter wildlife utilization and low fall.

Nearby our lease two older gents own 2,500 acres. They had previous successes and became very choosy. They got tired of passing on 160's and then seeing them entered by the much larger neighbor in Los Cazadores. HF went up. They get up when they want, fix breakfast and then corn roads and either set up by it or drive the place. For whatever reason, they now routinely take 7 1/2 and 8 /2 year old giants - leviathans really. They feed proetein during the off season and have no corn feeders - zero. it is unlikely you will ever see a photo of their deer. Bomber natural genetics, patience and HF has produced what they want. For one, I am happy for them.

When I got on our lease, the east, south and west were high fenced. The four miles of north fence was not. Well know STX family came into some big $ with minerals and upgraded cattle to Aisan. Foreman convinces owner to get HF on the 1.75 miles if fence between us. We thought it was going to hurt us. The hunters on the other side of the fence were dismayed with the HF, they told us so. They didn't like it at all. This really changed our deer patterns and the quality of our hunting has improved a lot, a whole lot. Funny how it works.

Doesn't really matter----my opinion. It is fair chase if the owner believes it is fair chase. I just wish I had 2500 acres to hunt on high fenced or not, much less 25,000 acres.

Its funny how what i said about average movement of bucks in the rut based on a study ate some people up. I never said many of the things that were stared after, and i never tried to equate the study i quoted to exactly every situation…i was just using some data to say on 25K acres a buck in rut is unlikely to use most of that acreage during the rut.

Couple of things: the 1600 acre ave was per buck, and they all covered different areas. I am sure a lot overlapped, but certainly some didn’t. This was a study done on 50.000 acres, and typical deer population in the study area had a buck to doe ratio between 1 and .5, meaning there were between 1-2 doe per buck in the study population.

Studies are not natural, have never claimed to be. But they give good data that CAN be used in the field, and when multiple studies show the same things, it becomes pretty solid evidence of behaviors in the field. To ignore the factual data and say its just kids doing research and not applicable in the field shows either a lack of willingness to change ones understanding (stubbornness) or a lack of understanding of the scientific method (ignorance). Sometimes studies dont make sense, and diving into that study to see its weaknesses warranted. Sometimes studies butt up against our firmly held beliefs, and thats when its time to try to reconcile why we think differently from what the science is showing.

Being able to see the forest thru the trees is tough for some people, and for some its tough to see the trees thru the forest. I have realized in life some people want to see only the trees and some only want to see the forest, and some only want to see the horizon on the other side of the trees and forest. Some of you know better and instead of making valid arguments you choose the lazy approach to just make your point easier. Be better.

…..poor little boy …. got his feelings hurt….

This defines exactly who you are.

Show me where I have ever mocked anyones animal or hunting? You cant, but I can pull dozens posts of you taking lots of shots.

if you cant take the hypocrisy of your actions then maybe a hunting forum isnt for you. Calling others animals and hunts canned hunting and then going scorched earth all over the forum trying ruin an outfitters livelihood because you didnt get a bull, is very ironic….

your statements and actions not mine.

Apparently comprehension is difficult for you. Not getting a bull is only a portion of why I warn other THF members about James Duran. If you could comprehend….you’d see he had been stripped of his guide license….ticketed….gone to trial(multiple times from my understanding ….was dishonest in many ways and to my knowledge, he continues to be under the scrutiny of NM game wardens.

Several member of THF PMd me after the fact to say they had the same issues and how terrible his operation is.

I just put it out to be sure others don’t do the same. And there have been several that have thanked me for the warning.

I have nothing against HF ranches. I have hunted a couple and helped manage one. IMO I think there needs to be a minimum acreage allowed. I think anything less than 500 acres is like hunting in a back yard. Just how I felt at the time. It is not fair chase. I have seen the negative side of HF also with a lease I was on for one season in Baird. 3 sides of HF and 1 open end that was maybe 600-700yds wide. Never saw a sign of deer on the property much less one in person. I did see alot of signs of predators. Old guy at the local store said the predators run the deer into the corners for easy kills and the deer will not go into that area anymore. Made sense. I know it affects the movement of wildlife dramatically. Takes years for the fenced area to become some what normal again in my experience. I dont know what the magic number is but I would say around 2000 acres at least. There is definitely something different when you have no clue what could walk by. Either way as long as the hunter feels good about it then thats all that matters. Its their tag or money paid.

Not that i would, but i could HF my 400 acres and would have a very difficult time hunting a specific deer.

Not all parcels are the same.

Oh I remember distinctly you going scorched earth because you saw only cows but no bulls… Lol

Regardless of the outfitter it was pretty comical And still is comical due to how you troll others on how they hunt, yet have “canned” type expectations

It wouldn't take as long as you would think. But its not a given you are correct.

Let’s all meet up and fight it out to decide who’s right or wrong. Winner takes all and the topic won’t be brought up again for 5 years where we have a Fence Fighters 2, battle of the haters brought to you by Mangisil and Monkey Butt..

I will join the fight and you can pick which side I am on. That is about the only way I could ever come up with a decent amount of acreage. Just let me know when and where.

Someone would probably hit your left leg with a 2X4 with a nail in it

I don’t fight, on the internet or in real life. Last thing i wanna do on my day off is roll around on the ground with the likes of any one of you’s!

leases i hunted, largest 1,100acers ta smallest 200acers.
It was pretty much sit in stand & wait. Each had own area, stand, feeder, food plots.
For me part of hunt is looking for signs. Trails, scraps, bedding, rubs. Mature deer
learn ta pattern hunters, (areas were brown its down), stay away from the open food plots feeders.
Skirt theses areas using the wind ta check for does.

Freerange. Have had several deer, nice bucks, live ta see another day. Buy jumping low fence.
Fair chase. Today's hunters have rifles reach out 200-500+yrds. Scopes zoom in, upclose & personal.
Public hunting land & low fence is more fairchase.

Posted a deer taken, crossbow, & few had thar sly remarks. Each deer tis a trophy.

Putting a fence around the 400acers would change movement greatly.
Deer use roughly 10% (small percentage of area) bed, travel for food.

Just my still got cheap posts.
tis sure will get plenty of feed back

400 acres high fenced? 1 feeder per 100 acres, up to how many acres a guy has, put a camera at the feeder….and I promise you will know every deer around. He will find a particular feeder and for the most part; come to it like clockwork. Not that that’s a bad thing.

have you every depopulated a ranch?

No, should I? Is it fun, because I like fun and shooting things. Give me a call and I will depopulate any thing you want. Do cows count; I depopulated one of those the other day.

One of our neighbors is a breeder and has just over 700 acres. About half of that is his ranch headquarters and breeding pens, the other half is native habitat. He wanted to supplement his breeding operations with commercial hunting and attempted to wipe out the native herd. He never came close. He would release the bucks he didn't sell and most of those have died of old age not from hunters. After a few years he shuttered his commercial hunting operation because success rate were so low. Just because you know the bucks are there doesn't mean it is easy to hunt. Ease or difficulty of hunting has much more to do with population density and terrain/habitat then the height of a fence.

pro tip - use a suppressor

Surely you jest….

400 acres is big enough that with the proper habitat there will be deer you never see, even within a hf.

Just for example, i have 6 feeders on 400 acres, and i know if i had that HF and wanted a specific deer, i could walk tjay whole property in a day and try to find that deer. But what is keeping the deer from walking the property as well? It would be one big circle and i would lose quite badly due to my inability to walk thru woods with100% stealth. And yes, on 400 acres there is plenty of natural browse that i see deer from stands that simply never ever come in to feeders.

I was wondering, You made it sound easy.

Unless it was the Amazon, completely under water, I would find him…way too many tricks I’ve learned for 400 acres. With that a dead subject; I want to depopulate something!!

I’m really glad I’m too busy hunting to keep up with this thread.

We tried for 3 months on 400acre place. From cameras and tracks around water sources, I think we left 3 does. solid cedar. If we could of used thermal, NV and hunt at night, I think we might could of got it done, but not legally.

Buddy is working on it now on 900 acres. His current take is well over his survey number, He has 6-7 hunters. He also had 4 hindes no one has seen in 4 months but show up on camera one a month. its nasty thick mesquite, pear and Yaupon Holly. I wouldn't ride his ranch horse back.

Now if my ranch was high fenced we could depopulate it in two weeks tops, it pretty wide open

Im be north west of you tonight. Helping with some wapiti hunts then to my ranch to cull pronghorns. Daughter cant hunt rest of the year so Im done with WT’s

You need to stop taking pictures and pull trigger on that cross bow.

You have to respect the work anyone puts into a high fence operation; they work their butts off. One of my friends has some of the largest in the country; and he rests very little. And freerange is tough hunting in this wind and cold!

Interesting you say that. I go many years without pulling the trigger and never really feel the itch. Always wanting one bigger than is around.
This year I saw that new buck and really wanted to kill him. Just haven’t convinced myself he’s old enough.

none of them live for ever.

Des a bigger rack or older deer make the meat taste better ?
asking for a friend.

you yield more meat on more mature deer.

Do stupid questions make one appear, well, stupid?

Btw, the bet here is I prepare and consume a lot more deer meat than you.

Add me to that bet, for more them him.

It keeps illiterate Yankees from killing immature deer like this that would have gone to the property across the fence...

Have you seriously stooped to virtue signaling to make your point? I am gonna be the first to admit, i am sticking an arrow in the next legal deer in range. But not because it is more ethical or the correct thing to do. But because i have laid down one animal in three seasons and i like venison.

If anyone has more virtue it’s the guy investing his money and sweat to enrich and protect the land, who only shoots mature deer unless otherwise recommended under MLD. Which has been proven through the years the right way to do it.

Now wait a minute....when we start talking about the "right way to do it" what exactly are we going after with regard to the correct way toward what?

If you are talking from an antler standpoint, maybe. When you are talking about simply numbers of dead animals, thats hard to argue against. But what is the end point and who sets the end point for "the correct way to do it"?

I think the state and the landowner may be at odds over what is right and wrong, at least in some cases.

I won’t pretend to know the answer but their success has to count for something. But now we are discussing management practices other than HF vs low or no fence.

Thats what I am getting at...what is considered a success and how do we measure it?

We have antler score, which to most is a success if it gets bigger, and yet we have some on here who said they would HF to keep deer and other animals out, so it seems MLD would be a success for simply killing numbers, and yet others who simply want to meat hunt (you know those neighbors who we blame for putting up the HF to begin with, who shoot everything they see coming across the property line, aka the people who put up stands on fencelines)...so what success are we talking about and who is setting the bar and what is the measuring stick?

When you start using words like success, there is a goal in mind, has to be, otherwise there is no success to be seen.

If you have any questions to what MLD defines as success here is a link

https://tpwd.texas.gov/documents/234/pwd_1047_w7000_mldp_program_information.pdf

It’s not all about headgear, even if it is a prime factor

If that's true, you would know, younger age deer, livestock is more tender.
If you do prepare & consume more deer. It's only because you have the big buck'$.
Areas I hunted were basicly 1 deer counties.

BoBo agree held more meet.
Better quality (steaks,roasts) from younger animals.
& rack size has nothing ta do with taste.

That gives nothing about success or failure except successful enrollment and or quitting the program....I am just using your terms you used...trying to figure out what the success was is all.

tender is a myth. Fed beef age is based off gain efficiency and Mad cow laws.

The most tender deer I have ever had was 8 year whitetail stag, I hand pulled backstraps off

My answer is I don't care, in this day and age where ALL hunting is under attack, I am against anything that separates and divides us. I don't give a a fat rat's rectum how you hunt, where you hunt, only if you hunt. As long as it is legal I say good on ya!

If you actually read it you can get a pretty good idea from the first paragraph. Or maybe you just would rather try to build yourself up by cutting others down.

Killing smaller deer on harder places to hunt does not mean you are a better hunter or a better person.

A mature buck has twice as much delicious venison as a yearling.

Also, animals on a well managed place with less pressure are typically in better condition.

The Managed Lands Deer Program (MLDP) is intended to foster and support sound management and
stewardship of native wildlife and wildlife habitats on private lands in Texas. Deer harvest is an
important aspect of habitat management and conservation. Landowners enrolled in either the MLDP
Harvest Option or Conservation Option are able to take advantage of extended season lengths and
liberalized harvest opportunities.


So is the definition of success you are referring to improved land management, land stewardship, deer harvest, conservation??? I am not trying to be picky here, but you brought up the success thing, and I simply asked you what metric was being used for the success...I am not trying to cut you down to build myself up either, simply asking what you defined as success....its a simple question you have failed to answer three times now.

I have even tried to give examples of what could be considered a "success"...so what do you deem a success?

It’s not about me

I take 3 or 4 mature bucks each year and every bit of them goes into, get this, hamburger, dried sausage, breakfast sausage and fresh sausage which we make ourselves. All does get back strapped with one tender one being cut up for steaks and such. All else goes into sausage.

You eat a lot of sausage...

At least the sausage I eat ain't alive.

Daddy was a civil servant and Momma was a teacher. Started off hunting with relatives and friends and never in a blind. Was smart enough to understand things and dumb enough to do what I was told. That has worked out rather well. I'll be damned before I get ashamed from the continual diatribe from someone always complaining about "big bucks" and all that it affords and lends itself to. Came to a town where I knew no one and made what I made. Had mentors who never gave me a nickel nor borrowed me a dime, but showed me all kinds of ways to make and then save dollars. I will never be able to appropriately repay them and I think they are good with it.

Earned every dad gum penny of what i have, every single cent. I know many others in similar, self made situations who have done far better. I do wish things had worked out better for others, but that was not my fault. None of it. I'll keep doing what I do.

'Tired old schtick disappeared for one paragraph.

Got to give Hud created his processor bill aint high. All DIY

his dried sausage is still best Ive had but I cant figure out why. He beats cherry springs, heartcraft/AJ’s/schnieders, Boos, and Alamo.

It's made with love and a lil' Crown Royal

I'm on my way with a nice single-malt.

LMAO!

Yep same here - we eat on deer meat all year long - wifey makes meat pie, chili, and on and on out of it -backstrap fried is the best however - I grew up on it -

Yep same here - we eat on deer meat all year long - wifey makes meat pie, chili, and on and on out of it -backstrap fried is the best however - I grew up on it -

and for what it is worth ............... time for this thread to die -

Beautiful. IMO you don't owe that freaking loser any sort of explanation though.

Die in a high fence or low fence? That is the question

I feel honored and blessed to of been given some of HUDs dried sausage and it is definitely the best I have ever had.
When threads have no where else to go, they start turning into sausage threads. …..

I want to do this German style dried sausage and whole muscle too. Hud made a post about it a while back, I want to learn that. No idea where/how to start. I did pick up a grinder this year though.

Hud is the Sausage Miester.

Judd likes that fresh semi soft sausage

Voice of reason right there.

What's your opinion on the question your raise?

You can always tell when the season is wrapping up when you start seeing the high fence, black panther, is crossbow hunting really bowhunting, can a .223 kill Sasquatch, and will CWD kill all the deer threads.

And the same judgy opinionated asshats come out.



With the group of friends I have, looks like OT is submitting an application

Speaking of Sasquatch, do they make good sausage?

It ranks right up there with bald eagle, preregrine falcon, and horned hoot owl sausage if you ask me.

not as good as whooping crane and porpoise

What about jaguar?

I don’t think they make sausage, at all. They have limited access to meat grinders and whatnot.

That’s kinda sneaky

It’s what I do.

How would you rank it against the owl you brought us recently?

aperantly the sausage is better from what i'm reading.

Yelp, to bad for you

same but sweeter. Similar to how jag is sweeter then regular mountain lion

i don't let it bother me.

You Sure? You are really missing out. Hard to beat that German HF dried ring sausage.

I get at-least a deer a year.

BoBo.

Fair chase - i preference low fence.
Several times bucks have won the chase
by simply jumping a fence.
Even though it twas well in range of my .270

You been helping out with the hog problems ?
Our hunting tis over. 4 tags 4 deer archery/crossbow
LF .

Stay safe.

Does it bother you that most people think you’re stupid?

You guys sure go outa your way ta read my posts/threads just ta make snide remarks.
Hoe ya both had pleasant hunting season.

Who you calling a hoe?

My bad.
Hope ya both had a pleasant hunting season.
You the one with name calling.

After finger pointing, who wants to look like a victim. No question mark on purpose.

Just giving my thoughts on HF just like everyone else.

In one post and acting all downtrodden, you indicate one must be rich to shoot 4-6 deer a year and then in another post you reference having taken 4 deer. People like you elected what we have right here, right now. Vote for him and then tell us about the HF you likely never have been behind - just like an illegal migrant from wherever

Leases i was on could only take 1 buck. 2 days for a doe.

Gave up on leases cause they outa my price range.
Know of several others. Seen many who lost leases ta people making more money.
It's fact.

The 4 deer taken i texted about was 4 different people 2 bros, my mom, & myself.

Price of hunting license.. we been doing our own processing for several generation.
Got 5 different places can hunt, don't have ta pay.
& i count my Blessings.

& don't care about HF. It's legal thar.
Just not my thing.

If you started with this statement you wouldn’t have to eat so much crow

Ain’t mine either but I don’t begrudge others who choose it or otherwise benefit from it.

With the group of friends I have, looks like OT is submitting an application [/quote]


You know I love ya cuz but I’m not sending in my application for a sausage taster just yet

HF are like grocery stores !
Great place to buy meat.
LF are the places to acquire Trophy’s.

If high fences don’t hinder animal movement, what’s the point of putting one up?

To hinder yours

“They restrict the movement of wildlife”. Well, duh. But it’s not to keep animals in, it’s to keep predators and people out.

Most people complaining, who provide anecdotes about the movement of game animals, got fenced out. I think there was a news article not too far back, about somebody who made a grievance against the King ranch for high fencing his property line. Well, he was selling deer hunts and making money off the results of generations of game management he never invested in.

So who is the real bad guy?

I drag deer under fences, how tall they are doesn’t matter to me

I don’t agree with it, but supposedly the deer belong “to the people of the state”. Which would mean that one should not be able to contain them on their property

Well, again, it’s not to keep deer in. It’s to keep predators (4&2 legged) out. But you’re late to the party

Well, again, it’s not to keep deer in. It’s to keep predators (4&2 legged) out. But you’re late to the party [/quote


Regardless of intent, the higher fence retains deer inside of it, hindering their natural movements. Predators go under and through fences, why is such a high fence needed? South texas yotes started growing wings?

So you are going to tell me that a high fence does not keep *any* predators out nor restrict their movement?

Look you want to resurrect this thread that *almost* died and reiterate points that have already been made and countered fifteen million times, and just hammer it over and over until you get the last post?

I can play that game, too, lol. I got time i am waiting on a customer overnight. The virtue signaling, elitist attitude makes me sick to my stomach. Sick the way the smell of chemicals and nailpolish do.

VERY SPECIFICALLY we are talking about a property that is 40 square miles. I would argue, to keep the poachers out a high fence would be a good start! But you’re right, not even a high fence keeps them all out. But who has time to check fences around 40 square miles?


If you have a property this size a high fence is a smart investment, and a long ways off from a pen.

Tongue in cheek or not, this is why.