Game Wardens overstepping their bounds?

I've heard guys say game wardens are welcome on their place at any time. However, I have to wonder if they would feel that same way if officers had taken their game cameras.

Link

This one should be interesting,

Yes, even if the landowner had committed a crime, I have to believe any evidence captured by the landowner's camera taken without a warrant would never be allowed in court.

I also have to believe this is not the first time this officer has taken a landowner's or hunter's camera to search for evidence.

Sueing for $1. Hope he wins.

It may fall into line the same as phones. I know police have been known to "seize" phones, but must then obtain a warrant before they can search the contents. I do see how this could be abused with a trail camera as it would be unenforceable to know if they secretly looked at the pictures first to see if it would be worth obtaining the warrant.

It took all of two minutes to find an example on a phone seizure from a TPWD game warden field notes page.

Don’t Text and Poach
During a public outreach event, game wardens were provided information about deer being killed throughout the hunting season by the same two suspects. A warden was able to make contact with the suspects from the incident and was given a confession that in addition to killing one deer in January, another white-tailed doe was killed in February on the north side of Canyon Lake. The shooter admitted to killing the deer from a roadway, and at night, with a 20-gauge shotgun. The shooter also admitted to cutting the head off with a hatchet and disposing of the head in a wooded area. During the investigation, game wardens confiscated the shooters cellphone, and a search warrant was completed on the phone which uncovered numerous pictures and videos from another deer being killed in late December. The videos included the deer carcass being mutilated by both individuals. Two assault rifles, one shotgun, numerous knives and a hatchet were seized related to the illegal killing of white-tailed deer. Cases and restitution are pending.

And a game camera seizure case in Pennsylvania.
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/...egal-elk-feeding-case-pa-court-says.html
"Game Commission can use man’s own game camera against him in illegal elk feeding case, Pa. court says"

Open Fields Doctrine.
This has been happening for many years, not new to current political times.
Been a few cases over the years.

https://issuu.com/realtors_land_institute/docs/rli_terra_firma_winter_2023_issuu/s/18005147
https://ij.org/case/pennsylvania-open-fields/
https://ir.law.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2173&context=lr
https://tennesseelookout.com/2022/0...ss-searches-by-state-wildlife-officials/

They’ve been overstepping their bounds for awhile, but only because the courts allow them to.

The open-field doctrine is in the U.S. law of criminal procedure, it states that a "warrantless search of the area outside a property owner's curtilage" does not violate the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution. It’s nothing new and has been tested thousands of times. It’s been on here a multitude of times. How the OP could be ignorant of it is beyond me.

Consider the cut/paste source.

A Game Warden can seize nearly anything he wants without a warrant. Live by that and you won't get in trouble.

^^All there is to it.

I only scanned this but all I can say is that opinions on game wardens on here goes both ways, sooooo…

We’re definitely on the same blood trail I honestly figured this would have gone completely sideways by now.

Was told long time ago, Game Wardens have the most jurisdiction of any law enforcement, both state and federally. I have no issues as long as "reasonable cause or doubts are guiding their unbiased actions".

While that probably hasn’t changed much, it was before the days of the 24-hour news cycle and when people had seen their DOJ and FBI go “sideways”. People today are far more likely to question such tactics while others scoff at them for not being a good sheep.

Question all you want, doesn't alter what the law allows or calls for. Opinions are that, not law.

Thanks for sharing. I knew game wardens had greater jurisdiction than other officers but was not aware of this doctrine, much less the fact that several states have done away with it.

No one ever reads section D. Game wardens have the same powers as any other LEO. Not any more or any less. The open fields doctrine lets them roam around properties looking for violators. Not the right to search your house, etc. without a warrant. Read section D.

b) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department who observes a person engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission or reasonably believes that a person is or has been engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission may inspect:
(1) any license, permit, tag, or other document issued by the department and required by this code of a person hunting or catching wildlife resources;
(2) any device that may be used to hunt or catch a wildlife resource;
(3) any wildlife resource in the person's possession; and
(4) the contents of any container or receptacle that is commonly used to store or conceal a wildlife resource.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department may inspect any wildlife resource that has been taken by a person and is in plain view of the game warden or other peace officer.
(d) Nothing in this section authorizes a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department to conduct a search otherwise authorized by this section:
(1) in a person's residence or temporary residence; or
(2) on a publicly maintained road or way that is:
(A) improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular traffic;
(B) open to the public; and
(C) distinguishable from a shoulder, berm, or other area not intended for vehicular traffic.

overstepping their bounds since they were created. Always remember to close the gate at the road, so at least they have to walk in to snoop

Its a shame they didnt do that with Hillary's phone before she got to it

Drones

I do wonder when Americans are going to have enough of it and remember that we used to tar and feather folks who worked for the government and stepped out of bounds....

MOST of my interactions with police/law enforcement have been positive.... a wife/husband duo who work as Texas game wardens in southeast Texas take the cake for the worst experience I have ever had. To act the way they did blew my mind... especially considering we were completely legal... I just figured they will get their due when they mess with the wrong person in the wrong place one day.

In most cases I'm pro-game warden and have a good relationship with our local guy. That relationship would get strained really quick if he confiscated my camera and then tried to use any pics as proof of a violation.

We all know that the US Constitution is null & void if you are fishing or hunting. It’s clearly stated in the Constitution.

It’s amazing how many supposedly conservative sportsmen just accept this. It’s the ole, “ I got nothin’ to hide,” nonsense. Yeah, don’t you worry about your rights, or anything. Just be a good boy and play by the new set of rules.

Shtoopid. Just Shtoopid.

I got nothing to hide but I don’t want to have to hide anything either. To me it’s private property they should stay out. I’ve said it before had our local warden unlock our front gate using the AEP electric company lock. After he checked us all out I walked him to his truck and told him we didn’t appreciate it. He has since retired.

I have no problem with the GW. I appreciate what he does. If he wants to come by my place, no problem.

And you are afforded that right. We are also, supposedly, afforded the right to be secure in our property and possessions.

May be more to the story than was reported to create reasonable cause of wrongdoing. The guy's brother had been nailed for baiting during turkey hunting; it's possible he turned on the brother and alleged wrongdoing to lessen the heat on himself, maybe a neighbor turned on the guy. Don't think enough is known all the way around to claim foul. If none of that, May have a case of harassment by law enforcement at a minimum.

There’s no such thing as a harassment by law enforcement case.

I have always welcomed game wardens into our camp or on my property. Never had any reason not to and have never had one be disrespectful to me in any manner. I appreciate what they do - it is a tough job for sure

I've never met a game warden that I didn't like but if I found somebody camouflaged who is armed with something other than a hunting weapon sneaking around on my property they're probably going to get shot unless they can explain themselves really really quickly.

Now I’m curious what a “hunting weapon” looks like.

Bolt action rifle with a scope, large bore semi-automatic probably equipped with a scope, Big Bore revolver, a shotgun that looks like one you would hunt birds with. If it's some guy with a bolt gun I'm going to assume that he got himself lost in the woods and offer him a ride back to his truck if he needs it. Same with somebody that's obviously out hunting birds.

Edit: If your law enforcement acting within your official capacity and your actions are indistinguishable from those of a criminal it would be in your best interest to both visually and very vocally make it clear that you are law enforcement. This Deputy was killed in the line of duty when executing a no-knock warrant because his actions were indistinguishable from those of a criminal home invader. The resident at the house that killed him was no billed on the capital murder charge and the grand jury indicated that it was a self-defense killing. Right or wrong the deputy still died when there was no need for him to die.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/21892-sergeant-investigator-fredrich-adam-sowders

My problem is this idea the Justice Department can rule that "Private Property" as noted in the Fourth Amendment doesn't include your PRIVATE PROPERTY outside of your so called Curtilage. Talk about the "slippery slope". Folks who LEASE land from Fed Gov. BLM, they seem to be able to have better privacy than those owning land. and these folks are only leasing grazing/surface rights.

I can understand the idea that a GW would get permission to enter your property and look for violations outside of your domicile...but taking your property(game camera) would be considered theft in my eyes. So, when local law enforcement is the thieving party, who prosecutes the theft?

So a game warden dressed in camo with a semi auto pistol on their duty belt will get shot, but a game warden dressed in camo with an AR-10 won't?

If your appearance and behavior is indistinguishable from a criminal then yes, you're probably going to get shot before you get a chance to shoot me. Given the current Norms of society I will not knowingly murder but I will kill without hesitation . Like it or not I judge people based on their appearance until I find out otherwise. My land in Montana has nothing on it except for a cabin and there's no boundary markers so I wouldn't get too upset if I saw someone walking through and probably wouldn't even say hi. My land in Pennsylvania has been in the family for the better part of 140 years and everyone that lives out there knows the property lines so I'm probably going to jam you up even if I do so politely if I see you wondering around. The land I have straddling the US border between Mexico and Texas has nothing on it and no one there so if I see somebody I'm going to assume that they are up to no good doubly so if they are Latino and or cannot speak English.

Check out my edit to my first reply to you for clarification.

It looks like this was recent. Wasn't there a similar case a year or so ago, Ohio I think?

I'll give you an example of how things can go awry pretty quickly even if the person is claiming to be law enforcement. I have a friend named Leo that lives down by Austin on some acreage, he's a little bit eccentric , is british, and also happens to be the son of a billionaire. He lets recovering addicts live on his property until they can find somewhere else and it's kind of a little bit reminiscent of a hippie commune out there but he keeps order and will not allow consumption of hard drugs or their presence. A short time back someone showed up in the middle of the night claiming to be the police and that they had a warrant for a girl that was living on the property. This was in the dark although there is an extensive surveillance system on the property. After a few moments of interacting with the trespasser things got ugly and Leo shot him in the chest with a 12 gauge and killed him. Turns out the man claiming to be a police officer is a violent felon that just got out of prison and whose ex girlfriend was living on the property. That same man had to be taken off of the property a few weeks earlier by the Sheriff's Department and the deputies warned Leo that the guy is not to be tangled with and warned Leo not to take any chances with him if he came back. It hasn't made it to the Grand Jury yet to the best of my knowledge.

Bit of an extenuating situation given the unique situation wouldn't you admit? Not sure your story is an analogous comparison, pretty sure it's not.

I believe there are times when officers need to stand back and consider if the effort is worth the risk, both to themselves and the landowner or hunter. Going after convicted felons is one thing, but is it worth risking your life to catch a guy baiting turkeys? I'll never forget the case many years ago where a MDWFP officer was shot and killed by a guy who turned out to be the SIL of the landowner. It was around the Christmas holidays when the officer received reports the landowner had been hunting at night behind his house and went onto the property at night in an attempt to catch him in the act. The SIL had been hunting his FIL's stand and was walking back to his FIL's house when he heard movement in the brush. Being an inexperienced hunter, he fired a shot to scare off what he thought was a threat and ended up killing the officer. The SIL would later die in prison. Two men dead and families ruined over stupid deer. I have to believe if the officer had approached the SIL with a flashlight outside the brush he would likely have admitted to his actions.

For the record, I have zero problems with officers coming onto my lease at any time to make sure my actions are in compliance. However, I feel they should make sufficient effort to first identify themselves as such and not go sneaking around in the brush in an attempt to avoid detection.

had the same thing happen to us on our place in Batesville....guy was using the Medina Co-op lock to access.

After that, when we were there, the co-op lock was left out of the loop. Its one thing if they are going to be looking for poachers. Its another thing entirely if they are coming onto a private ranch thats being utilized by the landowner and their guests.



Only bad run in I've had with them was in west Texas when two rolled in on us one night at camp. only two of us there and they separated us and starting playing 20 questions. we didn't have a deer hanging, no sign of anything going on but they wanted to play good cop/bad cop, to the point where it started to get aggravating. After awhile they let up and we ended up having a decent conversation but imo it was a tad over the top.


I've been written tickets and be stopped plenty while fishing and every warden I have encountered has been nice as could be.

I made Pedernales Electric come out and take the lock off that they just decided to install one day, without notification. I explained that I go out of my way to make sure they have the combination, and any contractor going in always calls me anyway to get the combination.

The point is that there was somebody claiming to be a police officer who was sneaking around in the dark on a property. It could have actually been a police officer and my friend would have had no way of knowing. If you are law enforcement you need to clearly state that you are law enforcement and it should be very apparent to anyone looking at you that you are a law enforcement. Not doing so puts you in danger and it also puts the homeowner, leaseholder, property owner in danger. The police/ law enforcement need to do everything above board and they have no business sneaking around behaving in a manner that is indistinguishable from Criminal Behavior.

Killing someone for criminal trespass with a firearm is a one way ticket to live in a cage forever.

I wouldn't kill somebody for criminally trespassing. I would kill them because I perceive them as an armed threat to my safety. If you are law enforcement and you are sulking around without identifying yourself you are taking your life into your own hands. I've repeated this ad nauseam but I feel compelled to say it one more time that law enforcement has to be completely above board, they have to clearly identify themselves, and it needs to be readily apparent that they are law enforcement just by looking at them. Just because you are law enforcement does not mean that you get to take threatening actions against another person without it being very apparent who you are. I quoted an example of a man that killed a sheriff's deputy in Texas not too long ago and claimed it was self-defense and the grand jury no billed the capital murder charge because the officers actions were indistinguishable from a criminals actions as perceived by the homeowner. I would much prefer not to die and I would much prefer not to have to shoot somebody doubly so if it is a law enforcement officer. As a law enforcement officer you may be in the right but that won't bring you back from the dead and it won't stop the person that kills you from having to live with that. As a law enforcement officer you could also inadvertently put yourself in a circumstance where you have to use lethal Force to defend yourself when lethal Force wasn't necessary had you simply identified yourself.

Can't disagree with the clear identification thing.

If a game warden is on a property, they will readily identify themselves if asked, so the point is moot. If the property owner is so scared they can’t fathom making contact with someone before shooting them, they should probably stay in the city.

Relaying a story about some eccentric rich guy, owning land and fostering a recovering drug addicts' hippie community was really "interesting" though. May not have been pertinent, but "interesting".

I have met a few game wardens in the course of hunting. Have seen some who were very professional and some who were very pleasant and nice to visit with.

I’ve been hunting for over 50 years. Only had 6 or 7 meetings with them. Never been cited. Only one was a jerk; a real jerk.

They used to have a key to my gate. I have a very high hill that overlooks a dirt road. GW and Sheriffs deputies used to come by and get on the hill watching for road hunters and probable drug deals.

We have a relatively new one in Montague County. I saw him in town and introduced myself. He already knew who I was and where the key to my gate was. The previous GW had filled him in on everybody in the County.

Many like that here in this thread. It’s sickitating. While I have nothing to hide, & truly detest poachers, I believe in privacy, private property, & the 4th Amendment more.

I have had good and bad interactions with GWs. The good was in getting assistance to get the Denton County Sheriff's Office to do their jobs and deal with the people shooting across my property while I was on it and nearly hit multiple times. The original deputy who responded said there would be an investigation but then days later opted not to do anything about the incident. At that time, the deputy informed me that he doesn't enforce hunting laws like shooting across property lines, you know, because of office discretion. I called the GW for assistance. The GW apparently went and had a talk with the sheriff's office and the next day I was assigned an investigator and was told the deputy involved would be receiving additional training. All 3 shooters eventually got probation for deadly conduct.

The bad interaction was with the previous Montague County GW who got a call that somebody was hunting a rural cemetery. This was about 11:30 at night when he rolled up on me, the guy hunting the cemetery. The cemetery association had contacted me to deal with a hog rooting up graves. The game warden wanted me to prove I had permission to hunt where I was hunting. We went round and around for about a half hour, him even threatening to make me leave the property if I did not provide him with written authorization or contact information for the association, neither of which is required by law. I wasn't going to have him wake up my landowner in the middle of the night, LOL. I suggested he go back to his complainant or look up the cemetery association himself if he wanted additional information. Eventually, he left.

Certainly not how I would have handled that situation. We are all just so different. Maybe I am missing something, but it seems the GW was making a reasonable attempt to do his job. If I was the landowner, or hunter, I would appreciate that and wouldnt mind a call at midnight.
How would the GW be expected to handle it if the "hunter" did not have permission to be there and was hunting deer in a cemetery at night. I would think its kinda tough for a GW to walk up on an armed man at night not knowing he wasnt the worst of criminals.
If I was the landowner or the cemetery people I would likely be bothered that you had just made an enemy of local law enforcement just because you didnt make one call. Double, Im not trying to give you a hard time, but its just exactly the type situation that causes the controversy of some being cooperative of law enforcement and some not.

I have had no problems with the local Gamewarden’s when they are poking around. On the other hand I’ve had problems with poachers and trespassing. If the fellow filmed himself poaching on his own trailcam, then he is a fool and I would support it being seized as evidence. If there was no wrongdoing and the warden took his camera, it is theft in my eyes. One of the parties here is in the wrong. My hunch, based on associates, would be the camera owner is a poacher. Not enough details supplied in this instance for me to decide which party is in the wrong.

Why can't the Game Warden just stop at the farm, introduce himself and say he is making a routine, spot check? No problem. If there is evidence of wrong doing, then get a warrant and do the same thing.

The problem is that he never had probable cause. He got a complaint, not from the landowner, investigated, found a hunter (me) on private property where he didn't observe me doing anything wrong and I cooperated 100% in accord with the law. If he gets butt hurt because the law does not require additional cooperation, that is on him. He knows the regs. He knows he can ask. He knows that I can say no. He also knows he can't require me to provide him additional information as he tried to do.

Ive been wronged twice by GW's and for years it seemed like I was the only one who would dare mention they don't walk on water around here.

I beat 1 of those encounters in court, the other was just another waste of my time that resulted in no citation...BOTH times I was minding my own business, following the law and harming nobody

You know I find it interesting. I am 70 years old. I have hunted since I was a young boy. Been on many leases, owned my own ranch, have hunted in multiple states, etc.

How is it that some of you have had multiple complaints and negative interactions with GW's when I have had zero?? There is a common denominator in all of this.
Makes me sad when I read about fellow hunters trashing our GW's. They are regular people like us and are not perfect. But if you have had multiple issues then IMO that is on you

Been checked before, no big effn'g deal. Guys just trying to keep the peace and laws intact.

I agree!

Would you like me to forget me getting lectured and then cited for a non violation and having to take take off work and take it to court? The Judge quickly agreed and dismissed it.

I can't help those negative interactions I had, they happened and I was in the right, wasn't bothering anybody and not committing any crime? Furthermore, I was polite as possible.

But I am not going to pretend I didn't have them either

Been visited by wardens quite a bit, license checks in deer camps and on the lake, mostly good experiences. Had several visits on my property when gate was unlocked, warden drove up to the camper and visited, most of the times didn't even check license. Had 2 times somewhat negative, once gate was locked because there was a notice of a convict loose in the area while son and I were hunting on our property. We hunted separate halves of 160 acres so that we could hunt and stalk safely. I saw movement in the brush around 9am which was about the time a nice buck had been coming in, scoped it only to see a warden moving thru the brush....I was very not happy. I yelled at him and he seemed to be shocked that I was there. I let him know that was a dangerous thing to do and he was lucky I was very safety conscious. 90% sure he is the same one that got shot a year or 2 later while illegally hunting the Cooper WMA about 12.miles away and still works as a warden as far as I know. I have no respect for him and hope to never see him again...
The other experience was a different warden and technically he was in the right, a year or 2 after we bought the property dad shot a nice buck and was very excited about it. He dressed it and drug it a couple hundred yards out of the woods, then walked to the SUV and went back and loaded it. It was HOT and he wanted to get to town to get some bagged ice to put in the cavity and head back to Dallas to butcher it at home. I was hunting near the front gate and he picked me up there. The warden pulled up as I was opening the gate we we all talked and he checked our licenses and asked how we did. My dad was excited and wanted to show off the buck... and then we realized he had not tagged it, warden went into prick mode while dad filled out the tag, lecturing how he could confiscate the deer, guns suspend license, etc. Since dad got it tagged immediately and before we left our property he just wrote a ticket but totally ruined our experience of the first buck taken by us off our new property...

I’ve only had one bad experience with a game warden and he was a Fed, opening day dove season 2001. Made for a great story when he threatened to take the land owner to jail along with the rest of us law abiding citizens. Land owner told him to F off and he wasn’t taking anyone to jail. GW said, “You wanna bet?” Land owner said, “Yeah I do.” Land owner was sitting on the porch drinking cold beer and the GW way overstepped his authority on an 80 year old man that didn’t give a damn.

GW started off by writing me a ticket after breaking my A5 mesquite branch plug and forcing another shell in. That shotgun was on the Mule. I was hunting with an O/U. He proceeded to find something wrong with the way everyone was hunting. GW was a little man with AUTHORITY. The land owner called the Judge in his county on the party line. He said talk to the judge you goofy SOB. Game warden left in a hurry after being cursed out by the land owner and told not to come back. I miss that old man just as much as my own grandfather. He was a character.

We still have another chain with no other locks on it for when we are there. If a GW we don’t know wants to come in he will do some walking.

So your Dad failed to tag his deer and that's the GW's fault?? Give me a break

Lets simmer that GW love boner talk tlk, that wasn't the most egregious act ever...

If the experience was ruined it wasn’t by the game warden.

Just because you have never had a bad experience does not mean that it does not happen. I was in the same boat, till we had a warden yelling at my daughter, who was perfectly legal. She was near tears. He needed punched, but he knew that he could be a prick all that he wanted.
We have never done anything illegal, always polite, and very respectful. I did everything I could to try and deescalate the situation, wanting to be an example to my daughter about respect to LEOs. He made this very hard to do.
Also, just because I have had three bad experiences does not mean that there are not good ones.

This the type of atypical experience which needs to documented and pushed up the chain of command. Yes, documented means to put it in writing.

Touched a nerve with Hud when you mentioned daughter......
I agree that atypical handling of a situation by a GW could be taken up the ladder to his superiors. Beyond that, Im like tlk and have never had an issue at all. Much respect for LEOs, but say that knowing that there are bad apples everywhere.
As for the not tagging a deer story. I might have some sympathy if you had just rolled into camp, but about to pull out onto a public road I wouldnt think any slack would be given.

I said the GW was in the right! But he wasn't even going to check the truck until dad bragged about the deer, and then he didn't have to be an a$$ about it, just write the ticket and get off my property!

Sorry but the GW did not ruin your experience - you guys did by not tagging the deer - those are the simple facts based on what you wrote above. Anyone who has hunted any time at all knows it is law that you tag the deer when and where it was taken.

And to add ... of course there are some GW's who may could do better just as there are doctors, businesses, etc. who could do better. But overall I believe the vast majority of GW's are honest, hard working people who try to do the right thing -

I have never had a bad experience with a GW but you only need to watch that one old loudmouth dude on their TV show to see that many people should never wear a badge of any kind.

These posts are always the same. The folks who are squared away have never had an issue and the folks who got caught crying foul.

Absolutely, just like with cops. Then, some are jerks and/or some that engage in illegal activity themselves, like Chris Fried who was hunting after hours a Cooper Res. without a valid license when he heard gunshots and ended up getting shot by people target practicing. Just an honest, hard working GW trying to do the right thing will illegally hunting. https://www.statesman.com/story/new...king-law-but-holds-onto-job/10037167007/ https://www.gohunt.com/content/news/game-warden-poaches-deer-yet-keeps-his-job

yeah you can go find the bad ones online any day - but you can also find the bad ones online in ANY profession - still does not give hunters the right to ignore the law period.

I have been 100%squared away several times and had very bad interactions with Wardens. I mean multiple convinced I had broken some game law!!!

I have also received citations from Wardens who were polite, professional, respected my rights.

You're overlooking those who never broke any laws but were treated as if they had done so. I once had a game warden in another state encourage me to shoot from a public road. Needless to say, I didn't take the bait. People tend to never forget being treated as if they had broken the law despite having done nothing wrong.

Thankfully, the closest I've ever had that happen in Texas is when an officer accused me of incorrectly marking the back of my license. He felt very strongly that I had made a mistake until he realized the store where I had purchased my license had printed it on last year's license sheets. During the previous year, a box was checked if the buck had a spread of 13-inches or more. In the current license year, the same box was to be marked if the buck was a spike.

Trapper, I am an open book sir

I told my bad encounters of being hassled twice

I was cited once and it was dismissed

The other time, I was flat out hassled for no reason

Now, I must mention for those on here who have a hard time with this

I competitively fished for more than a decade plus hunted 60 plus days a year

So my possible encounters were probably more than most.

I never had an encounter in the woods, all mine were either on the water or water related

I didn’t want to type this but I will, y’all can choose your own idea but I swear this is all true and this is my complaints..

1. In 2001, I bought a brand new, never owned Skeeter bass boat. At the time of purchase, the dealership tells me that TPW is behind on boat registration stickers so they cannot give me one at the time of purchase. But they provide me w a proof of payment receipt.

So I go and fish, several times…4,5,6 idk and get stopped by the GW on the way home one day on a Farm To Market Road. So I pull over obviously and sure enough we do a boat inspection on the side of the road. I have life jackets, whistle, throw float, and fishing license….even though I am not required…it’s because i wasn’t fishing!…I am stopped 30 minutes from the nearest lake. Hell, he inspected my livewell, which was empty

There are 0 violations here. Then he asked where my TPW sticker is and I tell him how they are backed on issuing stickers but I have my payment receipt right here. He looks at it and sure enough, issues me a ticket for no sticker.

Number 1, I paid in full for a sticker and provided proof of payment, number 2 I wasn’t fishing when he stopped me, the man just wanted to cite someone. It was dismissed in court.

There is another example but dam that was a long type….

So how should I feel?

Should I pretend that he was right and I was wrong?

I was polite the whole time

WTH, here is the other…

I said I was wrongfully cited once and hassled the 2nd time

Here is the 2nd time

Like mentioned, I tournament fished for a long time…

There is a local jackpot tourney near me weekly which last about 4 hours on a week day evening

So my partner are fishing and we are hammering them on this particular point and sure enough the GW shows up to check us, which is fine. Even though this counts against our time. So we pass, no violations…15 minutes of our time gone. And we win the tourney that night.

We fish the next week, on the same point, in the same boat and we get checked again by the same Gw And I tell her, ma’am you just checked us in this same spot 7 days ago. Without regard, she informed me she was checking us again. Again, 15 minutes of our time is gone and we passed. AGAIN

So I originally said, I have been wrongfully cited once and hassled once

Some guys are boot lickers and you can’t help them is all I can say

But I will always call them like I see them

My God man!

Ima double quote him

I really don’t know what else I could have done in my circumstances

The GW’s are the only LE with a very limited amount of time to justify their positions.

I said it, I lived it

Seems like others have too

Trapper, I didn’t get caught w squat

I did nothing wrong but I still feel this way

I haven’t fished in 10 years and I hunt out of state now

Tx GW’s are a joke for the most part

I am thinking some of you need to quit hunting - clearly it takes a lot of effort for you to follow the law and rules - if it is always such a struggle then go fishing instead (oh yeah there are rules and laws with that too and GW's ) .. so maybe just go find a new hobby where you do not have to encounter anyone in law enforcement - night and out

I am not the only one w a complaint here

You are still licking boots..

You don't have to believe my posts, I doubt you will

Would you care getting cited for a violation you didn't commit?

Gus, you arent the only one. There is at least an entire HANDFUL out of MILLIONS of people. You drew a bad card. I would suggest you get over it before you have a heart attack. Also, adjust your expectations. If you fish and hunt as much as you said then the odds of something happening are much greater. Just realize that and move on. Dwelling on the past is not gonna help.
Thus ends my sermon for the day.....

I had the same constant battle with my wife.....again, just because you paid for and received your vehicle registration and have it prominently displayed in the envelope on the kitchen island doesn’t mean you can’t get a citation. She has been lucky... so far.

^^^^^^^^^^

just don't break the game laws

Rage Against the Machine - comical.

The world isn’t perfect and I got checked twice - whaaa, whaaa!

Some of you sound like you'd like a Warden season opened up, "no AR" restrictions. Hilarious and comical.....

That's your definition of being hassled? Being checked on back to back weekends? Oh, the horror.

the institute for justice is on it now

these bootlickers in this thread will be the first to turn over their guns, all the man has to do is send their buddy the game warden to do the confiscating.

yessa, right away sir

The issue I have is being stopped or having your property searched without a warrant or probable cause, which happens often. I know the former LEO's and boot-lickers think that's fine, but every citizen who believes in the Constitution should have a problem with it. You can't legally do it to folks driving, and you shouldn't be able to do it to hunters on their land or a guy pulling a boat down the road.

And then there are those the GW says I think im just going to skip little johnny’s house.

And then there is this - "The issue I have is being stopped or having your property searched without a warrant or probable cause, which happens often. I know the former LEO's and boot-lickers think that's fine, but every citizen who believes in the Constitution should have a problem with it. You can't legally do it to folks driving, and you shouldn't be able to do it to hunters on their land or a guy pulling a boat down the road."

GW's protect that which is for the benefit of everyone. Been out in the field a bunch and having been actually paid to be a guide, I can easily attest to the essily noted perception the idiot side is much more heavily weighted on the hunter side than the GW side. Hence the need for GW's. GW's are some of the biggest gun nuts out there and they ain't going to be the ones coming after guns.

Daddy told me to respect the man who is entrusted with a badge and wears a gun for a living. Seen some "interesting" ones of those guys, but they always get the beneffit of the doubt from me. Somes actions caused the trust to be lost. So now I get some hunyuck and DocHor teaming up to label me and others as being "boot lickers". A big problems is I do not like or respect the attitudes held by some which make a GW's duties indispensable.

well said Hud - if respecting law enforcement makes me a boot licker then that is what I am.

Most of you have no idea what LEO's deal with everyday. I do because my son has been a deputy for 15 years and I have ridden out with him many times and personally seen some of the [censored] holes he has to deal with - but he always does it respectfully and by the book.

And my personal experience with GW's over many years in the field has been nothing but positive (mostly because I make sure to follow the laws and rules)

And in my estimation, immediately and unequivocally rendering respect for the badge usually ends in a pleasant and decent experience. Has for me every time we have encountered GamecWardens.

Exactly. I don’t understand what’s so difficult to comprehend about our rights or exercising them. So many people seem to think exercising your rights or expecting law enforcement to respect our rights means that you hate law enforcement. It’s simply not true, and extremely short-sighted.

Hunters should not ignore the law. I agree completely. GWs and law enforcement should not ignore the law, either, but they can if they want to in many cases. I was operating 100% legally and complied 100% as stipulated by the law, yet still got threatened with removal from the property I was hunting if I didn't provide proof of permission or contact information from the landowner because the GW "had a complaint" not from the landowner about somebody hunting, LOL. That isn't how the law works. He tried to bluff his way through his "investigation" and I called him on his bluff. Of course, LEOs can lie to people as part of their jobs, but providing false information to a LEO in Texas can result in a misdemeanor charge against you.

Mine have as well BUT....following the laws (as I do) is NOT insurance you won't run into a bad GW (or one having a bad day). I am very supportive of LEO and had the pleasure of knowing one of the older 'icons' of the profession (Game Warder Grover Simpson) that patrolled Travis and Williamson counties back in the day. He was absolutely professional and a wonderful person to know and hunt with.

Conversely (in the same county) I had an experience I would challenge anyone here to reconcile. (The Judge damn sure didn't see it the GW's way).

Long story but read it:

Circa late 1970's. Location (Lago Vista on Lake Travis).

Our family owned a Lake House in Lago Vista and we also kept a Houseboat and Ski Boat at a marina on the Lake. Myself, my Brother, my Sister and her then Boyfriend had been Bow-fishing off of our houseboat as we often did on weekend nights. It was about 3 am in the morning when we decided to call it a night and head back to the lake-house to get some sleep.

On the way back a group of Deer were slowly walking across the street ahead of us (probably 200 ft. away). Deer in the Lake Side communities are thick as fly's and you need to always be watching for them. I was at the wheel of my truck, brother was in passenger seat, sister and boyfriend in the bed of the truck.

I slowed down as soon as I saw the deer and came nearly to stop. Even honked at them to get them to hurry across the road. Well...this 'Security' officer happens to pull in from a side street and sees my Sister who is holding her bow across her lap. So he rushes up (lights flashing) gets out and AT GUN POINT orders us all out the vehicle! Accuses us of HUNTING deer at night! No joke.

I told the guy what we had been doing (bow fishing) and that we were just heading back to the house. Pointed out that we had BOW-FISHING gear (1600 gr. fiberglass arrows tethered to 50' of 90 lb. braided line) and asked him how he thought anyone would shoot a deer (200 feet away with that)! Not to mention NO ONE was pointing a bow at the deer, my sister didn't want her bow getting banged up in the bed of the truck so simply had it in her lap. No arrow nocked.

This guy calls the Game Warden who shows up about 45 minutes later and is obviously displeased at being called out at such an hour. We all related the same story to the GW. GW decides he will let the JUDGE decide. So he confiscates everyone's bows (for evidence), doesn't write anyone a ticket but gives us the number of the judge to call. A date was set (3 weeks later) to see the judge. All four of us were shooting in an amateur archery league at that time and using the same bows to do that. We were without our equipment for 3 weeks.

Day comes to see the judge. GW actually shows up. We relate the story to the judge. He literally rolled his eyes, dismissed the case and gave us our property back.

'Security guy' was fired the next day of the incident by the Manager of Lago Vista, said he was simply aghast to learn that the guy had actually pulled his pistol and held it on us almost until the GW arrived.

Now someone tell me this: GW ACTUALLY thought he had a case there (no tickets were issued, just property seized) or was this just punishment for him having to get up and come out there. What is the legality even of what happened. Judge didn't seem any too happy with the GW.

Never ran into or saw the GW again and don't know what became of him, but anyone with a smidgen of common sense could see we were NOT trying to hunt deer (out of season, at night, on a public road, with bow fishing gear). Utter BS......! I've never been cited for a game violation in my life. I follow the rules. But that doesn't necessarily mean you won't run into a jerk now and then.

as stated MANY TIMES here - of course there are bad LEO's and bad GW's as you stated - there are the same in any profession on earth! So you run across a "bad GW" and all of a sudden they are ALL bad? (as others (not you) seem to think. Geez!

Yep. It's one thing to appreciate some of what law enforcement does....but, if somes think giving up their rights to appease governmental over-reach of authority in order to "protect that which is for the benefit of everyone" is ok, then yeah, you're probably a boot-licker.

FWIW, to me, respect is earned. I consider it precious, so I do not give it away freely. I can be cordial, but I don't give blindly give out "respect" to folks until they've earned it. That's just me.

I’ve met a [censored] ton more dirty hunters than dirty game wardens.

Definitely not all bad. Since LEO come from a cross section of society....we can expect that 'some' will not represent their profession very well at times. Hopefully those get weeded out quickly. It is intellectually dishonest (IMO) to label ALL of any branch of Law Enforcement as 'bad' based on the actions of a few. On that we are of one accord.

Having said that.....one bad experience does have a way of sticking with you. It is not unlike 'trust'. Hard to establish, easily lost.

I understand - how many "bad experiences' have all of us had with various companies, restaurants, hotels, and on and on??? Just because one went bad does not condemn all of the others - I fully understand where our country and world is now but it is very disappointing to see so many "hunters" be anti-GW - back in the day every hunter I knew totally respected game laws and GW's - if they screwed up and got a ticket they accepted the fact that THEY screwed up - obviously that has gone away

Y’all comparing bad apples in other professions to law enforcement is stupid.

The waiter at the diner didn’t take an oath to uphold the constitution. Like it or not - if you chose the career of law enforcement you are held to a higher standard. A waiter getting your order wrong is a minor inconvenience. A LEO operating outside of the purview of the constitution has life long implications that not only could affect your freedom but your ability to provide for your family.

LEOs can and should be held to much higher scrutiny.

Say it louder for the folks in the back!

Man there are some messed up people showing themselves on this forum - think I will take a sabbatical for awhile - been on here for years but never seen this type of attitudes -


are you serious?? Of course LEO's are held to a higher standard - tell me about the last time YOU road out with an LEO and saw for yourself what they deal with???

Of course you have not but I challenge you to call your local law enforcement and ask to do a ride out - they will let you do it - then come back on here and tell me how horrible LEO's are - but my guess is that guys like you like to wear out anyone who "does you wrong" - man I have been on this forum for years but think I will take a sabbatical -

OMG I never condemned them all, I started by saying major majority were good experiences, try reading and comprehending the whole thing I wrote. I said dad was in the wrong, he was not trying to get away with anything! The negative comments about that GW were due to his unnecessary long rant lecture, not the ticket. And as far as me, as I said dad met me at the gate and I put my unloaded rifle in the SUV and opened the gate, had not even looked at the buck yet when the GW pulled up. I wouldn't have double checked dad anyway because he is always very strict about the laws. We have hunted and fished for many years without a problem, served lunch and supper to a few GW. Never any problem with any LEO's. When we bought the property road hunters and poachers were bad and we worked with the GW to get them caught. Could not trust the sheriff at the time cuz his son was one of the road hunters, he finally got caught with 13 doe in the bed of his truck the night before opening day...in a 1 doe permit only county. Anyway you do not know us at all mr high and mighty and you damn sure don't need to accuse us as commonly breaking the laws.
And BYE

Pop a midol and take a break from the mental gymnastics. Please show me exactly where I posted anything anti leo? I am very pro non corrupt leo - I have great relationships with all of our local game wardens. Sorry the truth hurt your feelings but you can support law enforcement while calling out the BS.

The next time a game warden doesn't tag the rifle or confiscate the deer and he/she lectures your group, I suggest telling them to STFU.

LOL, no problem. We have had many good experiences with GW since that one, he didn't last long.

Agreed 100%. I support their job, and have had good interactions with the ones in my county. Have texted and talked to them many times. I just disagree with what the law allows as far as what they have the ability to do.

If the local PD randomly pulled folks over just to check and see if they were breaking any laws that would get folks pretty irritated pretty quickly.

FWIW, I've never had a bad interaction with any LEO or GW, never gotten a game violation, and never been arrested either, so I don't have any sort of grudge against them. Have had them for dinner in our deer camp before as well.

I suggest a cage fight, I’ll referee

Bootlickers Verses The World

Bad examples abound as did I relay in one of my previous posts. Taking a bad example and broad brush applying lt to the "whole" just seems absurd here. So would be calling a guy like me a "boot licker". Calling out names typically begins when someone realizes they are starting to have "difficulty" with their arguement.

Could not agree more with Cochise that all LEO have a higher standard to adhere to - no doubt about that.

.

I recall a few years ago a member on here, don't remember who, that was working on his tractor in the field and a gw rolled up demanding to see his hunting license.

I learn so much on this forum. I never heard the term boot licker before......

That was probably me. I was near the barn working on my tractor with the landowner standing nearby, both of us in street clothes. He did ask us at first if we had been hunting recently, to which I replied "yes". The landowner informed him that he doesn't hunt. When he asked to see my hunting license, I told him it was in my wallet in my trailer. He asked that we walk over to my trailer so he could see it, which we did. He also asked me if I had killed anything and I told him "Yes, a doe." He asked me when I killed it and I told him last weekend. I must admit at the time that I found it a little amusing the he thought I would admit to having hunted and killed a doe out of season without a license while standing there in street clothes. I mean, standing there in street clothes it would have been so much easier to say I hadn't been hunting that year.

While I didn't see the experience as being necessary, it was definitely something that didn't settle well at all with the landowner. I found it very much like an officer stopping at your house, asking if the vehicle in the driveway is your's, and then asking to see your driver's license.

Sounds like there 'might' have been more to the meeting than you were privy to (I.E. Warden might have been acting on information called in by someone). They don't always tell you why they are there.

It just seems a bridge too far that the Warden would go on that type of 'fishing expedition' ...out of the blue, with no apparent reason. But who knows.

Your comments bring up a good point. I have no problem believing there are those who would provide officers with false and/or unsubstantiated information just to put pressure on neighbor hunting groups. After all, there are those who hate knowing someone is after "their" deer.

Agree with flint.
It does seem odd but he may of had other information that caused him to be curious. If the shoe was on the other foot and a neighbor was doing something illegal then Im sure everyone would be ok with the GW going over there and doing the same inquiry. Once again, they are usually just trying to do the job we all want them to do. Evidently they step outa bounds sometimes but on here is first Ive heard of it.
In this case, even though it seemed odd, I would not have been bothered by that encounter at all. I would be thankful he was being proactive about his job instead of sitting somewhere doing nothing. The two GWs I have worked closest with have been very diligent/aggresive about trying to catch the bad guys and I love it. Our current GW called me day before opening day to tell me he wanted to go in on us well before daylight to try and catch a poacher we suspected as hunting on us. I loved it. After a year of dogged pursuit he finally got the guy on numerous violations. Our landowner is somewhat politically connected and he was able to get the punishment part of the law changed to address some of what the guy had done. They even named the law change after our LO. Our old GW outa Throckmorton was the same way. We worked together to catch an outlaw. He was relentless.

Love it. Game Wardens are not "out to get" ethical hunters. I've been checked many times. It often ended with a hand shake and an exchange of numbers. I still call a lower panhandle GW every time I plan on doing a somewhat annual walk in hunt on the Pease River. He tells me water levels, recent activity and success. I let him know my plate #, when I'll be there, etc. He lets me know it's ok to call him if I need access to private land for some reason and he will help if he can. One of the biggest benefits of having a positive relationship was at the beginning I bounced my understanding of game laws, rules and regulations off of him. I learned that a lot of what I thought to be true was not and it really opened up my hunting opportunities and made it way easier.

Met a guy at a seminar. Turned out we hunted close together. Real close. We had a problem pasture with bad hunters on our SE fence line. They had a pasture with bad hunters on their NW fence line. We figured out that pasture must be right in between his and mine.

Imagine our mutual surprise when figured out we were actually sharing that fence line. There was nothing in between.

I believe it's a term used by beta males, during the process of being a keyboard commando, to compensate for their inferiority complex.

It never bothers me to get checked when I'm in the field or even driving down some dirt road during deer season. Like others, I enjoy seeing officers ensuring compliance in the proper settings. However, if I had been up to my ears in alligators that day while working on my tractor, I seriously doubt I would have felt so accommodating.

I’d heard it before but I guess I didn’t know the real definition lol,

I think we both knew how this one was going to end, it took a few days but it finally got to rolling

Such a good example of how the world turns. Perception is reality, until its not......
I could make analogies all day long but Im already way over my 5 word limit.......

If you hunt or fish you owe a debt of gratitude to the Gamewardens who are tasked with policing the resource. Whether you realize it or not, it is the sportsmen who harvest the fruit of the wardens labor. All the native wild game animals in Texas are owned by the state. That is regardless of whether on public or private property. In order for wardens to police the resource they are tasked with, requires them to go where the animals are, be it public or private. My experiences with Gamewardens has been overwhelmingly positive. I have had two encounters with wardens that were not positive. Both were young men that did not yet know their way around. Both matured into assets to have around in time. The net benefits have far outweighed the two negatives in my estimation. In light of that I always show the wardens grace, even in the rare instances they were mistaken.

While you may have (rightfully) found it amusing that the GW would think you might admit admit to wrong doing, that is exactly what is he verifying. No doubt he listened carefully to your words and was making sure your story didn't change. Heaven forbid you mispoke and you really killed a buck and properly tagged and recorded it, but now he will want to know what you did with the doe you killed or want to know why you tagged a doe as a buck. From there, he is going to want to see the carcass and/or pics. It would be the same thing if you got the date wrong and you misspoke and admitted to shooting a doe out of season.

With that said, some folks just outright admit to wrong doing. Some folks will slip up trying to hide their wrong doing, which it what he would have thought you might be doing if you had misspoken. Story inconsistencies are the bread and butter of lie detection for law enforcement. My pop was a cop in Dallas for 21 years. I am very familiar with the "interview" technique.

The GW may have wanted to see which tag you used on the doe and he may have wanted to see if it was properly recorded on the reverse side of license.

Perhaps this is a good place to stop and ask yourself what if the roles were reversed and you were the officer. You come across two men working on a tractor just outside a barn. You have no history with either of them ever breaking any laws and it's obvious they're not hunting and for all you know, may not have hunted that season or at any time in the past. Now would you feel it would be appropriate to stop and ask them to stop what they are doing so you can ask them if they had been hunting that season and when one of them said yes, feel it necessary to ask to see his license? I can honestly say that if the roles were reversed on me, I would not have even stopped to waste their time.

If it bothers you so much to post about it, why don’t you man up and call him? All their cell phone numbers are online. That way you could get the answer yourself.

^^^I wish I knew how to save a quote like Smokeys above so I could just requote it EVERYTIME a GW thread comes up. Perfectly expresses my feelings and does it much better than I. Only difference is I have had zero negative encounters with GW(or any LEO.)

I was thinking the same thing, well said Smokey...

Please, this is a brainwashed response...

I refuse to believe any of this post

Put me down for agreeing with these guys

Some of you are 4 shots into the jab and it shows...maybe 5 whatever CNN told you too...

Ive just never been a fan of unreasonable searches and seizures

Someone needs to talk with a shrink

More than one.....

To the original post, with no more info to go on than what the link provided it sounds as if that GW over stepped his authority.

as to all the other post about GWs. I am 60 now been hunting since I was in grade school. been checked by GW numerous times and have never received a citation. There have been a very small few that seemed to try much harder than others. Most are at the least professional and more than a few outright friendly. I aint mad at any of em, but I aint giving one a key to my gate anymore than I am giving a cop a key to my home. I can tell you these as well if a GW came on to my property and took stuff claiming an investigation is going on and I know I am in the right. I would be taking every means necessary to find out why and end that investigation. How I deal with that GW from that point forward would depend on exactly how he deals with me.

I shouldn't have to say this but when I said every means necessary, I mean legal means.

The rabid tribalism shows an utter lack of intelligence.

It must be difficult to lack the computing power between your ears to process the idea that one can support the job LEOs perform while still standing up for and valuing the rights we have as American citizens that are guaranteed by the constitution.

It is A okay to question authority - it doesn’t make you an anti-American terrorist or some outlaw poacher. My gosh that is a silly world view.

Yep. It’s a shame how little people value their rights. That’s why they’re slipping away.

Could he also have politely declined to answer any questions starting at the the first question? Not being snarky just curious.

Or would Texas Dan have been compelled by law to answer the Game Warden's questions?

May your chains rest lightly.

Take the blinders off Max. I seriously doubt you and I see things from the same perspective.

yup, the 5th is there for a reason, anything you say can and will be used against you. it's called phishing, where you going, where you been, what color panties is your wife wearing today, bla bla bla, sorry sir, i don't answer those types of questions. use'em or lose'em

This has been around since prohibition. I just don’t feel all that oppressed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-fields_doctrine

do you own property?, maybe you do I don't know, but I find that people who don't own property have more liberal views on who should be allowed to enter private land for various reasons.

that's without question, it has been on the books for a long time. what is questionable is, is it constitutional. this is the reason the institute for justice is taking this case and they are a force to be reckoned with. and if they prevail, it will led to changes in the open field docrine

It’s a US Supreme Court decision so good luck with that.

do you really think the institute for justice would not be prepared to take it that far?

Views on whether we like it or not have nothing to do with the existing law. The open fields doctrine is nothing new. It has been around for some time. Many don't like the idea of law enforcement coming onto their property without permission. The law doesn't care whether you agree or not. People can start a movement to change the law if they wish. Maybe they will be successful. But it would be a challenge.

The way I understand it, game wardens have no more power than any other law enforcement. Isn't it probable cause that hunting activity is occurring which allows them to use the open fields doctrine to investigate? Or probable cause to search an enclosed space with a warrant in other circumstances?

Then they should give it a go. Get started. Challenge the law. That's how it's supposed to work.

yup, they have already started, i posted their video on p4 of this thread

Yes, I own my own ranch after retiring from 25 years of fulfilling my oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States and of Texas.

Keep us posted if the law changes. Until then Ill keep going by the law and ill be cooperative with any LEO, including GW, until Im given a reason not to.

.
Well hell yeah, and thank you for your service.

For the record, I'm not anti law enforcement, anti game warden, or some hippie type pinko fg,

I just don't think we should accept that the government can do whatever they want just because they say so.

How do all “if you are not doing anything wrong crowd” feel when the game warden knocks on the door of your residence long enough to get your wife out the shower to sputter, em……… never mind…..em…… I’m glad I was not home I would not have been happy.

The game animals are owned by the PEOPLE of the state held in trust, it is not owned by the state as an entity.

The gratitude is owed to conservationist who spent their own time and dime to protect and develop the resources that we are able to be stewards of today, otherwise there would be no game laws to police, as there would be no game.



I admire wardens and support them in the whole, as mentioned before I've only had one instance where they could have been a little more friendly, but other than that, I'm fine with them.


as for overstepping....hard line to draw there. I'm not going to lie and say I have followed the letter of the law to a T.....most were simple things like not tagging a deer until the next day, things like that. Back when we had the south texas place we would bone out and vacuum seal an entire deer and take it home....not supposed to do that either. But neither instance was a theft to the people of the state nor to the animal resource.

I would venture a guess that by a large margin most citations are issued for very minor infractions rather than a grievous disregard for the law. There is a big difference between waiting to get back to camp to tag a deer and shooting one off the side of the road or having 25 fish over your limit.

"Since Oliver, the highest courts of Montana, New York, Oregon and Vermont, as well as a Washington state appeals court, have held that the open-fields doctrine does not apply in those states due to their state constitutions granting greater protections to citizens (under dual sovereignty a state may grant its citizens more rights than those guaranteed in the federal constitution). "

Apparently several very liberal states do not follow it because their wise state constitutions give their residents the rights they deserve.

Just to dovetail into comments made in the news article linked in the OP...

Highlander's lawsuit against DWR, filed this month, challenges a nearly 100-year-old Supreme Court ruling that Fourth Amendment protections against warrantless searches and seizures do not apply to open fields, even if they are surrounded by fences or no trespassing signs. A few states have extended Fourth Amendment protections to privately owned land beyond the curtilage of a home, but Virginia is not among them.

Agreed, it's interesting that both conservative and liberal states are among those who have extended Fourth Amendment protections to private land beyond the curtilage of a home.

I learned a new word: "Curtilage".

I like this word. I'm going to try and use it in a few sentences over the next week.

I learned through interpretation of the comments shared that despite what I was told many decades ago, officers cannot enter your home without a warrant to search your freezer.

They can, but they need probable cause or permission.

I don't know. Now that I know this new word, it could be no. But, if you have a freezer in an outbuilding outside of your curtilage, maybe yes. There, I used "curtilage" in a sentence.

I thought probable cause was needed to get a warrant.

As far as I understand it, any LEO can search your residence given sufficient probable cause. Maybe NTX can confirm or correct this.

No. A warrant is required to enter a residence. Probable Cause is the requirement for the warrant. Consent or exigent circumstances (An emergency) are the only exceptions for a warrant requirement.

The 4th amendment is a lot more complicated than most of y’all realize. While a warrantless search may be lawful under specific circumstances searching a whole house is almost never legal without a warrant specifically describing what is to be searched and what is to seized.
There are circumstances that allow an LEO some latitude but there is no blanket exceptions.
Probable cause is the basis for any search whether warrantless or with a warrant, but an LEO needs to be able to articulate the circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that criminal activity is afoot.
In order to fully understand the 4th amendment, it’s essential to look at both the affirming and descenting opinions of the court. Many precedent cases are decided by a 5-4 decision.

Thanks. I had the two mixed up.

Curtilage....isn't that the stuff in a milk jug when it's been sitting in the fridge too long?

"Exigent". Another one for you Onlysmith.....

I think I had that once. It's like ringworm, right? You gotta' get right on that ringworm quick. Like find a 24 hour CVS quick.

First hand experience here txtrophy85. Without the support of wardens, what conservationists can accomplish is very often diminished. You may be right about the minor infractions being what you have seen. What I have seen is poachers becoming aware of conservationists successes with their own dime, and wardens apprehending them for trespassing and illegally taking game that is present due to the conservationists effort and willingness to spend his own dime. The two work hand in hand where they achieve the most notable results. Unfortunately realizing a high degree of success makes the successful conservationist a target of the slack jawed redneck poachers. Sadly, the committed poacher will travel great distances, and expend a lot of effort to target particular landowners in their zeal to illegally take trophy animals. I might add that some of them are quite skilled and utilize cutting edge equipment illegally. Unchecked they can be impactful. Gamewardens have proven to me they are a tremendous asset to the conservationist. Personally I want the wardens freed up to do their job to the best of their ability. Sorry if that was a bit long winded but yes lawful sportsmen are the ones that ultimately harvest the fruit of the wardens labor.

'Can't help but feel you're talkin' 'bout "behind the pine curtain." 'Whole differn't world over thar.

He may not be talking about it, but we sure are thinking it.

I don't owe any game warden anything he doesn't owe me for doing my job.

^^^^

Indeed it is.

He may be talking about that part of the world, but high end poaching is going on behind the "mesquite curtain" as well(and yall know it.) One difference is the "conservationists"/game managers/sportsmen are likely putting in even more time, money, effort into improving the quality of the game, habitat and hunting experience down there. The increased quality of the animals will draw an even more dedicated group of outlaws to take advantage of what the good guys have done(on their dime as Smokey says.) So, the Game Wardens become an even more integral part of the conservation efforts of the more dedicated sportsmen.
Circling back to the OP, I will say yes, there are some bad wardens, like anything else, and possibly the open fields doctrine needs to be looked at, but in the mean time I think we need to be supportive of GWs as a whole.
Once last suggestion to those that bash GWs for one or two bad encounters. Try throwing in a little support for their overall efforts/purpose/results while you are bashing the specific incident of one individual. May try it in everyday life as well. Ive heard it called "sugar rock sugar." Say something nice either side of something not so nice. The best bosses and leaders do this all the time.

^^^^^

I don't really see any wholesale 'bashing' of GW's going on. It's well understood that the bad actions of a few should not reflect poorly on any group as whole. We agree on that.

But it is reasonable (if not incumbent) to call out those that DO abuse their position of authority (if you value your rights).

As for 'Sugar, Rock, Sugar' I don't see any need for appeasement when you have a valid complaint. I'd say that is more like 'Sugar Coating'.

Sure, there are times for diplomacy.....but then again, there are times for not. No need to be wishy-washy if you have something to say.

Basically agree with all that. A subtle difference, I guess, would be to acknowledge the overall efforts/purpose/results of GW as a whole while also bringing up whatever valid complaint there may be.
Maybe the difference would be that if a random person on the street does you wrong then you would have nothing nice to say about them so no need to sugar coat. But because of the high level of regard that most of us have towards LEO of all kinds, then I would never offer up a complaint without first offering some sort of positive mention of them as a whole.
Just yesterday I ate at my favorite Tex Mex restaurant that has amazing consistency at all their many locations. The salsa was surprisingly not up to par. I brought it to their attention, not as a complaint, but just so they could correct if for others. I made that comment to them by first letting them know how much I thought of their quality and then ended by insuring I would be back all the time. Sugar rock sugar. They got that treatment because of their reputation and my previous good experiences, which is the way I look at GW and LEOs.

If you’re not licking their boots, you’re bashing them.

sometimes i deep throat the whole boot

This thread is still alive I see...

Id just prefer to be left alone and they are the only LE for some reason granted the authority to meddle with law abiding folks without cause

At least have probable cause is all I ask and that is too much for some to understand

Nobody needs probable cause to conduct an investigative stop.

Yes, you must have reasonable suspicion to conduct an investigative stop. The officer must be able to point to specific articulable facts to do so.

Correct, but 'reasonable suspicion' (a lesser level) is still required.

I’m not the one with blinders

Trapper would have been head gestapo in another life. Proudly.

Did you learn how to angrily belittle others in church? Pretty sure you “consider” yourself a good Christian. Just curious.

Not a good Christian. Just a Christian.

In your defense you spent a lot of years doing something I wouldn’t do. But you’re jaded and your view of the general pop is we’re all guilty criminals with 0 rights and no public official has ever done wrong. Hopefully a few more years of retirement you can get some balanced again.

But as of now you’re still a Jack boot.

Can you say a bit "over zealous" and no, this isn't being applied to Trapper.

Just a reminder this thread started with a report of an officer admitting to going onto a landowner's property and taking his game camera without his permission. The focus was on the officer's actions and not he himself. The best forums are those where people stay focused on events rather than individuals. Anything else is just a needless distraction.

In this thread I quoted the case law that specifically applied to the Open Field Docrine and stated that killing law enforcement, or anyone else for that matter, for trespassing was not justified in any way. Your response is that I would have proudly engaged in a central roll to carry out the Jewish holocaust.

Hunters, as well as everyone else, has a lot more to fear from a wolf in sheep's clothing than any game warden. I'm quite sure you know what one of those looks like.....

Interesting.

Godwin's law still relevant today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Sad, but true. It would seem that many people applying that label are not truly aware of the depth of evil connected to it.

Dan, “anything else is a needless distraction” is not true. The anything else stuff has “entertainment” value and is about the only reason to keep checking back on this thread. I gave up on trying to make my point but I’ll still try to distract here and there. For instance, I can’t remember having any issues with Trappers comments.

My perception of Trapper's comments is he has been a valuable member for providing information on how the law and law enforcement is currently operating without giving much of a personal opinion regarding agreement or disagreement. A perfect example was the Open-Field's Doctrine.

If you can find where trapper has ever once faulted a public official be it police to tax appraisers I’ll agree.

I’ll wait right here.

That's a big jump from, "Trapper would have been head gestapo in another life. Proudly." Quite a leap.

I got under Trapper's skin once, but that's okay. We weren't diametrically opposed, but significantly different. He's the only guy who has ever disagreed with me on this forum. I realized different experiences make people, well, different. Different is far from being bad and in no way are gestapo coments appropriate in my eyes. In fact, I would call that a low blow.

Acceptable. I’m known to go far out on comments always have.

Gonna have to disagree with you there.

Well...now there is two.

Arrr...

"are two."

Well I went on sabbatical from this thread but found myself back here today reading the comments.

For those here who think GW's and LEO's are out to get them ...... I will offer this advice one more time.

Go find a GW or LEO and ask to ride out with them - I have done ride outs with my LEO son multiple times and I dare you to do so and then report back here as to what you experienced on your ride out. It will totally make you appreciate these folks so much more.

What most of us envision what their lives are like are not even close to what really goes on in the real world. They deal daily with what is mostly the scum of our society - Many of their interactions are with good, law abiding citizens but believe me they also deal with some of the worst of the worst. Imagine pulling over a car in the middle of the night with 4-5 passengers in it and having no idea who you are dealing with and you are by yourself.

When they suit up for work everyday they know there is a chance they could not come back home to their family because of the danger they deal with every day.

So again - for those of you here who feel like you have been mistreated by a GW or LEO go ride out (it is easy to do) -

Creek...we're rednecks around here, you have to speak like one.

I c'ain't cotton to that.

Would be interesting to know what part you disagree with. Or maybe you are way ahead of me and just couldn’t wait to be the second one…

Lots of sensitive hunters in THF...

I’ve never been mistreated by a gw. Gotten a few tickets from them too. One I drank coffee with before and after said ticket.

I don’t think they’re all out to get me.

I do not advocate shooting trespassers would be a great way to end up in jail or dead by a better shot.

Doesn’t mean I’m okay with GW climbing fences and confiscating private property in a secretive manner. Sorry I’m just not okay with that and I’ll Never be okay with it. Period

I’ve heard my whole life gws can just waltz into any property they want and do as they wish. The constitution says something different.

You said Hud is the only one on here that has disagreed with you. I disagree. It went over your head. Just trying to add jest to a thread that has gone off the rails.

Like everything else in this world - there are good people and bad people, Good cops and bad cops. Good GW's and bad ones - But I guarantee you the vast majority of GW and LEO's are good, hard working, and honest people - seldom does one just "waltz onto any property and do as the wish" - you said you have "heard" your whole life they can do so - has that happened to you?? give me a break - again I dare you to go ride out with one of them - your entire perspective would change - once you do a ride out come back on here and tell us all about what you experienced

It seems to me that some of you are reading things into what others are typing.

Whoa whoa whoa…I said redneck and you go full blown colt 45 on us



I used to feel the same way…but the reaction to Covid opened my eyes and it’s clearly not the vast majority that I once believed it was, for all society not just Leo’s.

Cant bee

I'm rarely read into anything.

Creek, is that proper grammar?

You absolutely HAVE to do that when Hud is involved. And evidently you as well… 😊👍
The shark has definitely been jumped in this thread. May it continue for entertainment purposes into eternity….

As long as you have nothing to hide, you don’t need rights. Clearly, our founding fathers were a bunch of short-sighted criminals.

I have absolutely no idea what you said...but I disagree wholeheartedly.

I’m so confused,

I didn’t go back and read every word of this voluminous thread but I sure don’t recall picking a side in this one. I just quoted the applicable case law from the SCOTUS and advised killing someone for trespassing will be a poor decision. If it makes some people feel better, my favorite name to be called during a slight loss of composure has always been “White Devil”

Mission accomplished…..

are not

This discussion has left the highway and gone well past the ditch and into the pasture.

Watch out for the chiggers

Chest waders are handy for some threads.

Lot's of evidence is allowed after unlawful searches today; the principal they rely on is that it would have been found anyway..... not saying I agree, but it happens routinely today