Loaded guns and vehicles just don’t mix

This latest incident brings to mind when a Houston area teacher was shot and killed when his dog stepped on his loaded shotgun while it was laying in the bed of his truck.

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Strange, I have 3 loaded firearms in my vehicle all the time and I've never had an issue. Maybe it's because I don't let a dog step all over them.

Always a loaded pistol in my vehicle and one on my person. Never an incident.

An unloaded gun is just a club.

I agree that any non-defensive weapons should not be loaded and some states have laws to that effect, but last time I checked all my shotguns (and other firearms all have Safeties..

There is more to this negligent tragedy than is being told.

I carried a loaded pistol for a living for 25+ years. I always had a loaded shotgun and rifle in the vehicle too. The only time they discharged was when I intended for them to. Blaming the firearm and the vehicle is just ignorance and lack of experience.

This...exactly this.

So I take it some of you keep loaded rifles and shotguns in and around your vehicles while parked in your deer camp.

I keep a loaded handgun in all my vehicles because that is a place where I might need it. However, being human and for reasons of safety, I see no need to handle a loaded firearm in any place where it won't be needed. It's why I wait until I'm in my deer stand before I chamber a round, and make it a point to empty the chamber before I get up to leave.

After investigating hundreds of unintentional firearm discharges, 90+% were done while the person was loading or unloading the firearm. Thinking you’re somehow being safer by monkeying around putting in or out of battery is just more inexperience.

Another incident that comes to mind involved a bird hunter who was shot and killed while removing his shotgun from his vehicle at a local gun range. If I remember correctly, the gun went off as he was removing it from its case while at his truck. It points to why it’s common for gun ranges to only carry un-cased firearms with bolts open outside of open range times. The shotgun had reportedly been left loaded since the last hunting season that had ended months earlier.

Of course a far more recent and tragic accident involved an East Texas man who accidentally shot and killed his young daughter while reportedly checking his lever action rifle at his truck. It’s no doubt the fear of having to live with such a thing that far outweighs my desire to handle a loaded firearm anywhere it won't be needed.

THIS

I never chamber a round until I'm ready to shoot.

I think some of yall are jumping on Dan a little much on this one. Hes trying to remind people to be safe. I dont believe in keeping a loaded rifle in deer camp. Im sure someone will mention a tent in bear country.......

Hilarious and true. I have a hammerless 38 in my truck but you gotta pull it to use it. All my other semi auto pistols are not chambered and when traveling there is never a chambered round in my deer rifles. Bullets are in there but not chambered.

Zero muzzle discipline and zero trigger discipline in both stories.

It was not the gun's fault in either scenario, it was human negligence.

Funny how the OP poised the problem as being loaded guns in vehicles. Given the vehicle didn't discharge the gun, I am missing the connection as to why they are bad together.

We see 1-3 stories a year where dogs cause discharges and people are hurt or killed, and not all involving vehicles.

e.g., https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...he-foot-in-indiana-idINKCN0SK2I620151026

It would seem that giving pets access to loaded weapons is much more of an issue.

x2

It would seem leaving loaded long guns lying on the ground or flat on a seat is the common theme - which goes back to ignorance/idiocracy on behalf of the person who left them that way.

I've been carrying loaded weapons daily for 60 years.
Never had an AD but I won't ever own another Glock or any other weapon with a safety trigger.

While this may be correct, I thought most hunting related deaths occurred when getting in or out of a tree stand.

If you live by the idea that ALL guns are LOADED until SAFELY proven otherwise, many of these incidents will not happen.

When I first read an article about this my first thought was 'what was he hunting with a rifle that he would have a dog along?'

And then the last paragraph goes off on an anti gun message.

The TPWD publishes it's Hunting Accident Report every year and it offers a summary of the reasons behind accidents for the previous year.

Significant factors in 2021
• RECORD LOW YEAR!
• SWINGING ON GAME OUT OF SAFE ZONE led the list of
incidents with 9 (75%), #1 ‘Hunter Judgement’ cause
• Hunting incidents with night vision scopes is a relatively
new SAFETY issue given the visibility and ocular focus
factors combined with swinging rifle towards and firing at
running targets.
• SHOTGUNS were used in 8 (67%) of the incidents.
• Six (6) HUNTER EDUCATION graduates were involved in
hunting incidents, two (2) who took online-only courses.
• NO LAW VIOLATIONS recorded, a first!
• There were four TYPE B incidents (non-firearm, hunting-
related) including falls from elevated stands, the number
one hunting incident in North America.
• There was one TYPE C (non-hunting, firearm-related)
incidents.)

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X3

"Why doctor, I didn't shoot myself. It was my dog that did it."

This was posted in the duck hunting section a couple years ago. Guys duck hunting in Louisiana, lay the guns in the bed of the mule, dog jumps in, guy shot in thigh. Former LSU football player. Leg amputated.
I don't know why some of you guys make it complex. To me it is simple: Handgun in holster, always loaded. Hunting rifle or shotgun, never loaded unless hunting.

I handle all firearms as though they are loaded and that’s even less complex. That includes not letting a dog step all over it.

If I’m riding around the ranch in my SXS gun is always loaded in case I see a yote or hog. Pointed in safe direction at all times and on safe.

Muzzle and trigger control. Which means it's not in my control if a dog, kid or some other source that could cause it to discharge is around.

I for one never have a live round in the chamber unless I am needing to take a controlled and measured shot. Magazines and clips are at full capacity but chambers are empty.
The excess time it takes to chamber a round I realize puts me at a huge disadvantage to show my quick draw expertise but I will accept that risk for the reduced potential accidents it provides!!!

In my limited experience the M4 is the safest gun you could have. You can literally pound the butt in the ground repeatedly, hard enough to eject live rounds, for a whole magazine without a single round being fired. And in every situation, the standard is to keep the weapon on safe and unchambered. You would not chamber a round until it is literal go time. But guess what? Dudes still have negligent discharges.

The only way to prevent accidents 100% of the time is to treat every weapon like it’s loaded and always keep your weapon pointed in a safe direction at all times.

So you brought up the statistic of deaths. While deaths are supposed to always be reported as are gun shot wounds, other types of accidents not resulting in deaths, even if they result in a trip to the ER won't necessarily get reported. I regularly go through hunting accident reports and while tree stand falls do result in both injuries and deaths, I can't say that I have ever seen either that resulted in the highest amount of either category.

This lawyer would have you believe that most hunting accidents and death are tree stand-related https://www.jeffbrooketeam.com/blog/article/hunting-accident-injuries/ but this summary of IHEA data would indicate that isn't the case, not universally anyway. https://www.targettamers.com/guides/hunting-accident-statistics/

Tree stand safety is a real concern and as gun-related deaths and injuries decline (attributed to hunter's ed classes), tree stand events have seemingly increased (relative). Still, they don't seem to be the number one cause of deaths or injuries, though I suspect a lot of the injuries go unreported. For comparative safe, I have been to the ER two times for hunting-related injuries (both ground falls) of which neither is reported anywhere as a hunting accident except on my hospital admission form. I know of 2 folks how have fallen from blinds and suffered injuries. Neither went to the hospital or even the doctor and so there was no way for those incidents to get reported, assuming if such information would even make it to the various agencies.

I do the exact same thing my friend!

I role heavy every single day, locked and loaded. Never a single problem. OP...sounds like an irresponsible gun owner problem to me.

Exactly. Why is an uncased/un-holstered firearm doing in the back seat with a dog anyway?

How does a dog step on a firearm DEACTIVATE THE SAFETY and manipulate the trigger? I can see the trigger what about the damn safety!

It is negligence on the part of the gun user. A loaded firearm (in proper condition) does NOT fire itself. IF its loaded... utilize the safety and keep your finger or other objects off the trigger.

I've been shooting and handling firearms of all types since I was 12 years old (56 yrs. now) and NEVER had an accident or negligent discharge.

Now I will be the first to say....there are people out there that have no business owning or handling firearms, they are idiots and a danger to themselves and others.
They are often goofballs in other areas of their lives as well. There will always be irresponsible people. But I just don't see the 'guns and vehicles' don't mix angle.

Can we ban dogs? I get the unloaded gun getting into a stand; but many mornings I’m easing into my stand before daylight and I can see deer all over the field, just yards in front, and they can hear a pin drop at 100 yards. So if you pull that AR back and let it slam into the receiver (which most need) most of the deer are gone. Doesn’t apply to you guys hunting tame deer.

My guess is that the gun had a trigger guard side sliding safety like my Remington 870. If the gun was a Rem 870 and was on its left side, the dog could step on the side of the trigger guard and depress the safety into the firing position. Quite possible, the dog's toes are all over the trigger guard and trigger, so the dog is contacting everything at the same time and likely not in a simply unidirectional manner as the dog is probably hopping around all excited. Net result, safety switched to fire and once free, the trigger is free to be depressed.

It may not be that it happened necessarily in one motion, but a couple. It is possible that first the safety was disengaged by the dog one on hop and the gun fired the next time the dog hopped on the gun, which literally could have been almost immediately following the disengagement of the safety.


OR maybe, the safety wasn't engaged, which seems to be the case in some of the other 'dog shoots owner' events. I don't know. I am just putting forth a possible explanation as to how the gun could have gone from OFF safe to FIRE and then fired by a dog stepping on it.

That gun didn't go off by itself. It went off because the owner was negligent.

Absolutely. However, since humans are well known for being negligent, it only makes sense they do their best to avoid creating unnecessary situations where negligence could get them or others killed.

Had an extended family member returned home from a hunt with 12 ga shotgun laying across the front seat of his 53 Chevrolet truck. The seat had a spring poking thru on the passenger side. As he drug the gun across the seat the exposed spring went into the trigger guard & gut shot him point blank.

There's the muzzle discipline topic. He was pointing a chambered shotgun muzzle at himself.

I hope he lived through it.

Anytime I leave town, the Judge goes with me.

Although I have some semi’s, I don’t want to ever wonder if I have it ready to go. And, I never leave a semi loaded. I do not want to take time to assure myself that it is in battery.

I’ve only had to use a short gun once and I’m surprised that I didn’t shoot either my ear my or toe off.

Nope

Fair enough. Cross-bolt safety (if ever on), could be stepped on and released. Bizarre chain of events.....but as you point out, possible.

I've been handling guns for 61 years now and have never injured myself or anyone else with one. I also ALWAYS have a loaded pistol on my hip and a loaded rifle in my mule or Jeep. So it all seems pretty simple to me....

Don't point the gun at anyone or anything you're not willing to destroy
Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are firing the gun
Be sure of your target and what's beyond it
Don't leave guns laying around unattended

If you do these 4 things a loaded gun is no more dangerous than an unloaded gun !!!

I'm also a big fan of having a "system" for what condition a gun is in at a glance.

Exposed hammer semi-autos: Hammer cocked/safety on = Round chambered/Loaded, Hammer down/safety off = Chamber empty/Unloaded
ARs: Safety on/dust cover closed = Round chambered/Loaded, Safety off/dust cover open = Chamber empty/Unloaded

It's obviously more difficult with a striker fired pistol like a Glock

It's pretty basic. Sounds to me as if the guns were not in direct control of a human/secured. If not in my direct control or secured, they should not be loaded.

I carried for 20 years, locked, loaded, ready to go, because of the job.

I don't carry a round in the chamber of any firearm now except when actively controlling the weapon, whatever it is.... rifle, shotgun, or handgun...

I don't carry a round in the chamber of a handgun, unless I am preparing to shoot. As for the "unloaded guns are a stick" crowd, I'll either see the threat in time to load, or avoid the threat. I tend to avoid sketchy situations where I need to draw and fire... I'd rather be safe around wife and family than plan for a quick draw contest.

I've seen more police officers in AD situations, than in quick draw contests. (Zero quick draw contests in my career and experience).

Yep.

Well one thing is clear the hate for Dan is still strong.

I agree. Semantics, hair splitting, vehicles, dogs, whatever.
He’s trying to make a point with this thread to be safe with firearms. Simple enough to me.

I rarely have a chamber loaded weapon in my truck but if I do, it's always in the front with me, on safety and pointed down into floorboard. I will not handle a gun while driving, ever. Dad had a guy in early 1970s, blow his forefinger off in my Dad's Blazer while hunting mules out near Terlingua, TX. Dad was driving and Ed was in passenger seat with his chambered .300 Win Mag. They were traveling hilltops looking for a mulie buck for Ed. Anyhow they see a buck close by and before my Dad could park the Blazer, an overly exuberant Ed is reaching for his .300 Win Mag with is offhand over the muzzle. The shot goes off and my Dad is nearly deafened by the sound. Turns out Ed has blown off his offhand forefinger putting a shot through the glove compartment, engine area and stopping at front bumper. My Dad yells at Ed, "What in he'll were you thinking" and Ed responds, wiggling about 1/2" of the remaining forefinger, "I can still move it". Needless to say that ended my Dad's hunting relationship with Ed and really any relationship. Inside of 2 years, a mentally disturbed Ed murdered his wife daughter, mother n law and himself in a police chase near El Paso if I recall correctly.

When I was in Wyoming a guy was driving down the road and his rifle fell over and shot him in the leg.

In his fit of anger, he slams the rifle down on the floor board and it shoots him in the chest and kills him.

Friend of my Father had a rifle in the gun rack of his truck and when he was trying to get out of the rack, it went off and he had a nice hole in the cab.

Exactly, 1,000,000% right!!!!!!!!!!

Need heavier triggers with longer pull when you're gonna let your dog walk on it if's loaded. Also, when letting the dog walk on it don't walk in front of it. Oh the dog needs to use the safety.

Some dogs don't like their owners.

My dog is all over the place and on top of everything in the pickup. Guns typically go back in the truck unloaded these days because I definitely see how he could set one off on accident.

If I have a loaded gun in truck and I use that term loosely I’m at the lease. And when I say loaded, I mean all rounds are under the bolt not in the chamber

Nobody seems to be mentioning THE TYPE OF FIREARM. This has always been sort of a pet peeve with me so give me some space to explain. Take a Colt Government with a grip safety. You have to simultaneously depress the trigger and the grip safety or the gun will not fire (unless some malfunction occurs). In any event pretty safe. A few years ago I bought a beat up 16 gauge side by side Stevens shotgun. If you gave it a bad rap the thing would fire. If you looked at the sear nose/notch engagement- totally worn and rounded. I dovetailed in a new notch and bought new sears, etc. and rebuilt the thing. As it was, if loaded and in the vehicle and you get in an accident and the vehicle is wacked-the gun could have fired. Many years ago, as a teenager, I had an old Winchester 94 that you unloaded by feeding rounds in and out the action. I obviously did this without a finger on the trigger and I was alone BUT I WAS near to my vehicle, muzzle pointed away and the gun fired. I couldn't believe it until I realized that the cuff of my coat had inadvertantly snagged on the trigger. The next day I traded that rifle in for a Marlin 336 that had a cross bolt safety- you could unload with the safety on.
The whole point is, yeah- all guns are potentially dangerous but some have better safety features that others. The old Mausers I believe had an oval firing pin so in the safe position the oval pin rotated and could not move forward through the bolt. It seems to me in the Hunter Safety courses, a lot more ought to be said on these things.
Also, when I was a kid a lot of folks still hunted and used lever actions and didn't have a round in the chamber, you cycled in a round while raising the gun to fire. Once tree stand hunting got going, everyone chambered a round and relied on the gun's safety. Nothing wrong with that but I always unload before lowering a gun out of a tree stand, etc. If you hunt with a group- everyone unloads before getting back to the vehicle, etc.

I have a loaded gun in the jeep, one by the front door (our of sight) one by my bed, in the living room, 3 or 4 in the shop, I am 82, not going to be a scuffle ect, two steps and I am loaded

Same

The dog was a pit bull and did it on purpose.

Gun loaded, safety off, finger on the trigger, that's how I roll

Loaded guns and idiots don't mix.

I keep a loaded handgun in both my truck and the wife's car. However, they're not handled near as often as the rifles I take to the woods throughout the year. It's just common sense that the more a loaded firearm is handled, the greater the potential for mental mistakes.

Let's face it, some guys just get a rush from carrying a loaded firearm, while others put greater value in safety and peace of mind.

I sleep with a pillow under my gun.

I agree with you Free. A tragedy due to complacency that didn’t have to happen. Cutting corners on gun safety for convenience is all to common. It is something you can get away with until the time you don’t. The consequences can be fatal.
I have spent a lifetime hunting with dogs. The number one reason break action shotguns are so popular among bird hunters is the relative ease of taking them out of battery when working with gundogs by opening the action and the easy visual confirmation they are out of battery by all present.
I lease out a good bit of property to deer hunters. One is a somewhat storied MLD in east texas predominantly hunted by residents of the DFW metroplex. Some years ago they had an accidental shooting in camp. 7mag out the wall of one camp from inside, through the wall of the adjacent camp, striking one of the occupants. Luckily there was a nurse present in camp. The fellow got quick medical attention and recovered. As bad as that is, it could have ended much worse. Complacent attitudes toward gun safety in the name of convenience and laziness is far more common and accepted by some than many want to readily admit.
Good post Dan.

False…9mm in console loaded, .45 under the seat, loaded. .308 during deer season, always loaded. 12 gauge always racked. This is like saying not to set a knife out to cut a steak because you might cut your finger.

Have a friend that has owned a transmission shop for 30 + years, at least every other year a truck would come in with a round in the torque converter from where they reached for there rifle while hunting and all but one said it was on safety when i seen the big buck and grabbed it, Most of them would say my wife's going to kill me when she finds out!!

Texas Dan...


Also Texas Dan...

Well, he's a mOron, so there's that.

lol

I've had them loaded before but never chambered if unattended.

Most of my guns are loaded with a round in the chamber. Only my old military guns m-1 carbines, m-1 garands and such are unloaded. I don't think this gun has ever been unloaded for more than a few minutes.