Chronic Wasting Disease and Quail Hunting????

Is it just me or do you feel if CWD ran rampant through Texas it would be much easier to find a cheap year round Quail lease? It’s nothing I hope for and would hurt the economy, but a lot of places that had no deer 20 years ago would come back into play for the Quail hunters. Just a thought I’ve been having...

A lot of places that had quail 20 years ago don’t anymore. Be better off wishing for arial predator set back..

Or better land/range management and less fire ants

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_1025.pdf

Or good rains every year. Quail numbers made a comeback many (including me) thought was impossible a few years back - the only variable that changed was rainfall.

As for the OP’s question, who can really say? If deer went away, quail leases might simply rise in price in response to increased demand from erstwhile deer hunters who would then have to turn to other types of hunting.

Hopefully we will never have to find out.

We don’t have fire ants. Our quail populations have fallen off the charts. I can tell you that my quail and pheasant counts have gone down over last 30 years via hay/wheat/Milo/barely harvest, and aerial predators have sky rocketed. Combine predation with drought cycles and it’s a losing combo. I use to see an occasional hawk, last year I counted 32 on a quarter section of cut wheat.

Traditionally most great quail areas that were void of deer are heavier ag and higher desert locations.

The places still thriving with quail, have thick heavy cactus cover or thick canopy etc. two years ago I counted up to 20coveys(blues and bobs) on a 6 mile loop in Stx. Quail are thriving, that’s with heavy cattle stalking rates

Even plantations I’ve hunted in the Deep South. Excluding supplementation the Aerial predator was minimal due to grass and tree cover.

Just my thoughts. Habitat is huge but some traditional areas the habitat hasn’t really changed in last 30 years.

So is it a predator problem or a habitat problem when the quail appear to all be getting picked of in a freshly harvested field?

The boll weevil eradication program was the culprit in our area. We always had a lot of quail until they started aerial spraying for boll weevils. Now that the massive spraying program has been discontinued, we are seeing an increase in the quail population along with the comeback of horny toads.

Farmland here, they do tons of spraying. Does it affect d wildlife ? Call me a snowflake.
Pappy said it best :



just my

Can't say that can be a problem, but that cycle has gone on since time began, I have seen the same thing when baling hay, almost looks like seagulls behind the tractor for the hawks, but have never seen one get a quail, the quail usually bust out in front of the tractor and fly to a covered edge/fence line.

Where you open minded enough to read the link I posted above? I agree with the premise that land use change, management along with many other natural conditions probably effect quail. Take land management by us out of the equation and you end up with rouge fires cleaning and rejuvenating the landscape, natural rise and fall of predated and predator numbers. Now add the loss of many small farms being worked state wide. Just seems like a bad cocktail for quail from many angles imo.

Around 15 years ago, I hunted a lease in Sterling Co, more blues than I have ever seen and tons of BW, like you said, there where thick pockets of cactus, few trees that where in pockets and this rancher ran cows and sheep, so it had it's fair share of pressure. He rotated religiously tho, supplemented with cotton bales along with tons of oil pads. He also made ground water troughs for birds at all the windmill stations kept full by the overflow tank and cattle troughs. Had awesome deer and some antelope as well, about 40k acres iirc.

Habitat loss is the biggest culprit. Followed by weather and eye mites. A lot of native grass has been converted to improved pasture that is too thick for a quail to navigate. Add to that a tougher economy prompting many to spray fence lines and clean up isolated patches of feral cover to support as many animals per acre as feasible. I was amazed though to see the quail flourish in areas with suitable habitat with a couple years of wet weather. Eternally hopeful for another cycle of above average rainfall through the spring and summer....

They don’t get picked off in a harvested field, they don’t remain. You can count them taking flight as you cut. They fly over to range or CRP. It’s simpley a food rich source that’s good at concentrating birds for counts.

As with any kind of vegetation disturbance, the same fields are a good place to get aerial predator counts because they concentrate on all the combine and swather kills/revealing of mice, rats, snakes, Darwin Award birds.

Any other questions?

Look at how your farming practices have changed today from years before you time. There has been a change in farming practices to a more efficient and profitable way of farming over the past 40 yrs now. Crops took a bit longer to mature back then and the fields were not sprayed or plowed under as quickly. A cultivator was used vs. a spray rig. Lot of weeds and grasses made it to maturity to produce seeds. Lot of field edges were either old growth fencelines or drainages, both habitat and cover. In my areas of South Texas those were all bulldozed and rootplowed for extra acreage to plant or the worst drainages put into improved grasses...aka waterways. The habitat, like posted above has changed in South Texas for Bobwhites in that there is more KR Bluestem and introduced grasses than 50 yrs ago. Timely rainfall trumps a lot of issues that man created. The Blue Quail population in South Texas has flourished, IMO due to several things. Water has increased but not nearly as much as no grazing and the addition of year round feeders. Just look at the number of protein feeders and then number of corn feeders that run year round. Throw in road feeding for deer from Sept till end of Feb. and quail are supplemented year round. Add in mast crops from growth of browse plants due to grazing practices in the past 30 yrs and you have a buffet of food sources for Blue Quail. On ranches that use mechanical habitat practices you see a return of grasses and weeds, you then see a jump in numbers of Bobwhite Quail in those areas. Bobwhites will use the feeders and water sources also but not as much as the Blue Quail. This all is just my opinion, right or wrong.

Why then were there more aerial predators in the 50 and 60's than today?

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Habitat change is “a” cause with out a doubt, Bermuda ain’t cool, neither are carpet type stocking rates. With that said I can tell you that in 30 plus years the habitat hasn’t changed on our place. Same native grasses, same old homesteads, fence rows, and same rotational planting schedules. The single biggest thing I have seen is the exponential increase in aerial predators. I also don’t see the same amount of snakes or rabbits as I use to either.

I don’t have a 50’s recollection, but from verbal stories our area of the high plains didn’t have much a tolerance there for populations where then. Same place that didn’t tolerate deer much either.

Habitat change is “a” cause with out a doubt, Bermuda ain’t cool, neither are carpet type stocking rates. With that said I can tell you that in 30 plus years the habitat hasn’t changed on our place. Same native grasses, same old homesteads, fence rows, and same rotational planting schedules. The single biggest thing I have seen is the exponential increase in aerial predators. I also don’t see the same amount of snakes or rabbits as I use to either.






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But your farming practices have changed in the last 30 yrs. You are now no-tilling a lot of ground and using chemicals to kill weeds in crops. Over 30 yrs ago that was not the common practice. A lot of crops are planted later and harvest sooner with new seed varities. In Kansas, I hunted with a guy for whitetail who was big in the Pheasants Forever in NW Kansas. He told of how when he grew up that the farming practices were much different up his area back then than today. He said that for the most part there are no old "fence rows between field edges...just plowed ground. Corn prices a few years ago saw acres and acres of CRP and highly erodable habitat plowed under to plant corn...I saw this first hand while I hunted there for 4 yrs. He listed several practices that had changed in the past and now the quail have gone with it. A lot of it has to do with lack of rain and the lack of any dryland crops due to that I will agree. There is still a lot of CRP but it is not burned when it is needed. Some is so thick and tall I could not walk it.

Farming practices change more on efficiency of output, more so then habitat. Up until two years ago most crop circles had thier corners in CRP,

You go swath the grassed roll chopped areas of STX, and keep it short, and continue or increase supplementing and I bet populations drop due to aerial predator efficiency

Buddies ranch in Mason is another perfect example, habitat hasn’t change on that ranch(no cedar). best thing for that quail habitat was drought because it lowered cattle stocking rates next year. Grass height exploded and so did quail numbers.

I personally believe aerial predators are a major issue. In turn when you toss in habitat changes you just increase thier efficiency

This places was shredded annually and stock with cattle lightly to allow the native grasses to thrive. Cattle numbers were kept in check so they did not ever have to buy hay. Drought and to high cattle numbers caused the brush to explode in the last 20 yrs on my place here I live on. I am letting mine turn back to dense cover but still have hunt-able quail numbers. In years of timely rains the quail numbers are even higher than in the off years. My place in Live Oak county is in area that had tremendous Bobwhite numbers and even Blue Quail numbers up until the early 90's. Really unbelievable numbers in the 60's. What changed from the late 60's to early 90's? A population of older farmers and years of drought left them to turn farmland into coastal pastures. Root plowing and coastal was the rage back then. Fencelines and drainages were were bulldozed, planted in coastal and new fences went up. Fencelines and grass pastures were sprayed annually to keep brush/weeds down. Grazing was king. The aerial predators were very high into the 80's when I still hunted that area yearly for quail. There are less avian predators today there than here on my land in Goliad County than back then in Live Oak. Both now have the same amount of cover but the difference is here is the type of grasses are different. Less KR Bluestem here and more bunch grasses. Nesting cover here and not much in Live Oak. More fire ants here also but they are in Live Oak County. Hogs numbers on both places but I work on them more here since I live here. I work on coons on both places.

There in lies your answer for the most part. Chemicals and shorter growing seasons have made them more efficient. Those are changes in the habitat....if you think about it.

IMO CWD would not devastate a deer population, but it probably would pull the numbers down in select areas enough to cause deer quality to increase for a while. That alone would cause deer lease values to go higher IMO. Fewer hunters will pay more to hunt a quality place. That has been proven over the past 35 yrs now. CWD has not devastated deer numbers any areas where it has been found, some stated devastated the deer population much more than CWD did. IMO, I think the deer that survive CWD or any other disease will only build a stronger deer herd over time. Lack of management practices to control deer numbers probably does more to help populations decline in bad winters or droughts. Deer populations in many states and areas are higher today than they have ever been. A deer population can recover quickly when conditions are good.

Corn ethanol was a very short window in grand scheme of things. No till doesn’t change habit, you are rolling over 5” wheat stub or cut 8” corn stalks. From an aerial predator stand point stubble doesn’t hide birds, snakes or mice... cultivation is a good source.

The mordern farm technology is more the effectiveness in new combine heads, seed varieties output, etc

Now if you want to talk about CRP management practices you would have some what of a point, but that’s in certain areas.

With that said per new CRP management regulations of cutting or grazing, we should see a exponential explosion in Quail...


Don’t compare quail to pheasants, pheasants are much hardier.


Short grass means more efficient aerial predators

No, essentially tilled acreage is the same, growing season is the same. the increase output is from efficiency in collecting, and seed varieties. I Don’t care how great John Deere claims those heads are they will always leave more grain on the ground then what can be consumed by gamebirds

100% agree on this

But there are no fence rows or grasses/weeds left for the birds to hide in no matter how much grain is left. What happens the first rain after harvest to all that seed on the ground? Things have changed you stubborn German, you keep admitting it...

Read what I posted again very slooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwllllllllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyy.

The only thing that has changed on our ranch is increased bushels per acre. Amount of farmed ground has not, growing season has not. That increase productivity is harvest ability and seed variety. With that said higher production yields leaves more on the ground even though collection efficiency goes up still law of percentages.

As far as CRP or rangeland management it has essentially stayed the same out side a few control burns and accidental lighting strike burns. Recently regulations on CRP management did change and now there is a hay/graze rotation requirement.

Old fence rows are still there as the old homesteads.

Biggest change I have personally seen is increased aerial predators by a huge swing.

And how old are you again? Read my time frame again...30 yrs or more ago. Do you use Round-up Ready corn? Things have changed you just have not seen them.

If you only plant 4 circles per section the amount of plowed ground remains the same 126acres x4.... if the rest is in native/CRP that 136 acres stays unplanted,....

Takes a lot of rain to sink corn, especially in an area that only averages 18 inches of rain and 30” of snow...

I was tearing tractors up 30 years ago. 50 years ago Not so much.

Who is the rock head, my herbicide useage is down 10 fold since roundy up.... with more precise applications, which would bood in quail favor...

Try again.

How much rain does it take to sprout corn or ruin it?

And how can seeds germinate after you have sterilized the field for years? There are none, hence less herbicide? What do quail eat more of again? Again you backed up my answer with your reply. CRP plantings and grass heights vary across every state that does them from what I have seen..some are short grass and some or taller grasses. Most were to thick IMO where I hunted for deer. They needed to be burned off.

Who’s the German now. My harvest is Oct. by then ground temp is below optimal. I will have pasture maggots, deer and pheasants still eating it in Feb

Who is German now? Is that grain on the surface where the sun and rain can hit it? If there is that much grain on the ground you need a new combine...

Lol, if it was dead soil I wouldn’t need round up. Application process is more pointed and efficient that’s all. Again CRP is now rotationally grazed or Hayed so I should expect to see a bumper crop...... of quail

You are trying to compare an area that soil erroision conscious for past 50 years and has moved away from the edge to edge Stx dry land practices.

If anything habitat in our area has gotten better with more and more soil conservation consciousness.

That’s it we are going pheasant hunting in Jan, I look forward to your quail habitat analysis. I have a doe pasture maggot tag too.


FYI stripper head efficiency is a smaller percentage of increased harvest yield compared to selective seed varieties. Three percent increase is huge, compared to a seed variety I can double row and break 300 bushels an acre...

You should really have become an attorney...deflection at it's best. I waiting for the answer to my first question above.

That part about sterilizing the soil was just to see if you actually are reading what I am posting or just skimming. If there are no weeds to make seeds then you have "sterilized" the fields from weeds...hence needing less treated acres. IIRC the area in western Kansas I hunted only got 17" annual rainfall with about a 15" annual snow. They do not stock raised nearly as many raised quail like they do pheasants for hunting up there in Kansas from what I saw.

Now do you think the ease of an avian predator being able to catch a released bird is effecting the amount of pressure the avian predators are now putting on native populations?
Just fun Thursday afternoon fodder to keep your German perked up.

Eh tu brute!!! I can’t believe you would hit that low


Come on I could never be a shake down artist.

Round 2


BOBOtheClown stxranchman

He knows I’m right. He just has two huge soft spots in his heart. Unfortunately he just can’t look past those to loves. Those two loves are for Hawks and spikes.

I will let you think you won.....even though we both know I am right.

I’m getting you one for Christmas.

I am getting you one of these..... Quail

Lol, the old man’s still got it. Pretty funny

Glad that's settled, so all things equal, the farmer using ge/gm seed and pouring Monsanto everywhere is what's caused it

https://phys.org/news/2016-09-largest-ever-reveals-environmental-impact-genetically.html

I agree, those a hole post 2008 farmers should be using native seeds and organic molasses based pesticides.

It's a sticky issue. Maximum yield Ag is more profitable. Money motivates landowners to do what is profitable. From an economic standpoint it makes the most sense. The trade off is sometimes niche species can't adapt and are pushed out. The taxpayer does not want to foot the bill to subsidize more wildlife friendly but less profitable practices.
As for the argument of being more birds of prey:
Raptor populations were decimated by DDT. They continue to rebound and recolonize areas they previously inhabited, but populations are not what they once were. Populations of some species are still drastically lower than prior to DDT. In that same period of abundant raptors, the bobwhite flourished across most of the south and pointing dogs in farmers yards and on their porches was common. Most of the quail are gone now. Shortly after the quail started to disappear, a lot of the bird dogs did too.