Hunting lease expenses and "entropy".

Entering year 4 on our lease. 4 friends from church. I've vented on here before about minor peccadillos. Nothing remotely worth getting off the lease. Now I've always observed how human systems, without a lot of attention to detail and occasional new energy, eventually break down. "Policies", committees, charities...the list is endless. I've always called it "entropy".

Expense reimbursements are starting to get really lax involving the deer lease. And they were never what'd you'd call efficient in the very beginning. My friend that's the "manager" runs his life, and his business, in a completely different way than I run mine. I can afford to have my expenses "blown off" (within reason). But I can't stand another man taking advantage of me, even if we consider each other close friends. I sent my expenses in in January, as instructed. I've usually had to send them in twice, 'cause he can never find the emails we'd sent before. Now there's the request for the full amount from each of us. No mention of balancing feed bills, other expenses, etc. that we've turned in. I've got an email into him (and the other two) asking what to deduct for my expenses, but here's where the "entropy" comes in. I know where this is headed.

Friendship is one thing. Bidness is another. The other two guys could care less. One has the attention span of a ferret on cocaine and the other has enough money to not even care.

Thoughts?

You need a better system or better friends - one of the two.

+ 1

When you need to keep score with friends you're on the wrong team.

You guys simply need a better system. You mention expenses but I'm not sure what that entails. On my lease we are each responsible for our own set up and keeping our feeders full. We are required to feed year around. We pay for the lease and that payment includes the water and electricity we use while there. Other than that there aren't any additional expenses.

P.S. It is unfortunate but I too have experienced Christian friends who take advantage of others and it's unfortunate because it's not a very good testimony. Not only that but I've been taken advantage of by my Christian "brothers" in business. A very tough lesson I had to go thru more than once in order to learn my lesson. Remember, "Not every who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Great quote.

I do not let anyone handle my financial affairs on the lease. I pay directly to the rancher what is due. Been down that road before CR, ain’t going down it again. My best friend still owes me money from 2 years ago. I reminded him once with an excel spreadsheet of the amount due. He didn’t question it, just never paid. I havent reminded him again of it because, as a man with integrity/morals I feel he should recognize his own debt/shortcomings and pay as soon as possible. That’s what I do if I had to borrow money. Completely eats me up inside until I can get it paid back. We are still best friends, but he won’t see another .01 from me, ever, even if he pays me back. Some would say I am holding a grudge. I disagree. I am simply protecting my wallet.

Had something very similar happen to me and several other guys when the guy running the lease was working inside with just a couple of the heir landowners. The other heirs were left out for several years but eventually found out about the money that was changing hands. Of course the guy running the lease blamed everyone but himself. It created so much discord in the family that I doubt the family will ever agree to lease the property to anyone again.

Those are the folks that owe other people money.

We had a guy try pooling expenses. Didn't work as he wanted to do more than everyone else without asking. Our guys are pretty laid back. We all have our strengths and go with that. If I spend an extra $100 on corn than the others then fine. One brings filet mignon every trip. Can't complain. I bought hog paneling for 4 of the feeders. Two of us hog and turkey hunt and others don't. So we keep feeders and blinds usable year round. We don't expect others to help if they don't use it. One of our guys hasn't shot a deer in 8 years. I don't get hung up on it. I got water, electricity, and 1000 acres for less than $2000 and alone many times. I bring all the firewood in to camp but burn the most.

True on so many levels.

Good way to be, getting 4-6 identically like minded or like motivated individuals is a virtual impossibility. Better to chase unicorns. In that size group, one to two will always be the highly motivated, highly willing to work and/or paying individual, one to two will be somewhere in the middle, one to two will be on the lower end of the scale for whatever reasons; lots of kids' activities, a nagging spouse, busy jobs, laziness or a combination of the sort. Whatever the case, co-existence/acceptance is paramount or if not, find a 1-2 person lease or buy own property. Those are pretty close to the options for most.

Very well put, and I totally agree. I just know that, since I've shared some good deer that I've bothered to fart with the game cameras and see, there's going to be more "harvest rules" suddenly coming down from "on high" this upcoming season. So, the place will become less laid back each season I'm afraid. This, in combination with the expenses getting blown off more each year just makes the "writing on the wall" obvious. I'm all for good deer management and letting minor details slide. I just know the chances of where I think this is headed. Maybe not. But the friendship at church is more important to me than a leased pasture to kill deer in.

Thanks for all the input.

Yep.

Hopefully they see the error in their ways.

A few of a zillion reasons i chose to own rather than lease.

My email woke him up and we're all back square now. 'Guess I was doing my Chicken Little routine, which I've been known to do from time to time. I made peace with my pessimism long ago. I'll practice cleansing breaths all summer and prepare for the what-we're-gonna-shoot discussion coming in October.
"Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's all small stuff!"

Sort of reminds me of an issue my neighbor had with a rent house. He learned the hard way of the Holy Trinity of people not to deal with:
Family/Friends, people you work with, people you go to church with.

Glad you got it worked out CR, unfortunately it shouldn't have taken that step.

I strictly adhere to the first two. On the third, the wife (of 25 years; we're both retired) said "PLEASE find a deer lease!" This was the first opportunity that came open.

This thread is one reason I hunt alone.

I love our lease - I can hunt way more property and better deer versus what I could afford to buy.

Anyway we have 12 hunters and I serve as the manager(I pay the same as everyone else - I do not subsidize my cost by passing it on to other members). We do not have designated areas - it is all community blinds.

I collect a lump sum up front for feed from each hunter. We also have buy in fee for any new hunter that goes toward camp expenses like cameras, batteries, etc.

I also collect one payment prior to start of season for electric, water, etc.

Never had a problem collecting it - but it does take some book work and keeping up behind the scene with all the bills, etc.

I then send out a detailed accounting to each member at the end of the season on how and where the money was spent including copies of all feed bills.

If a member did not pay their part then they would not step on the ranch until they did - pretty simple

I never knew doing something you liked like hunting could be such a problem.

I totally agree with this ^^^. No drama, good simple & everyone handling their hunting business responsibilities for the enjoyment of all.

there a lots of things in life I like that can have problems - it is how you handle the problems that matter IMO.
I owned my own ranch once - I liked it a lot but there were still problems. Personally I enjoy sharing a camp and hunting with others that a lease environment provides.

1st World Problems.

You seem to continue to have issues with your lease and lease partners, to the extent that you complain on this forum.
There is no one posting here that can fix your personal issues.
My suggestion is to find another lease and lease partners, what you have now is toxic and not apt to improve anytime soon...

On the leases I've been on, there always seemed to be one or two members that caused grief. Then I thought, hey, maybe I am the one! Bought my own place, problem solved. No, I don't have near as much land to hunt, but I do it my way and am much happier as a result. I understand ownership is not right for everyone, but in my case, it works. Plus we hope to move there permanently in a few years - so yes, a hunting property, but also retirement digs.

Seen the gotta pay ta play games, way before got on this forum.
Twas BLESSED when a WMA opened up down the road. As pappy once said:
" when ya huntsolo the memories die with ya. "
Every one keeps complaining how bad times are, low-income workers live it.
pappy

I hunt alone sometimes but enjoy it more when there is someone to share the experience. I not only enjoy hunting with my partner but also enjoy helping other hunters in the area with finding a deer that was hit and sharing general observations.

Men hunting together in groups goes back to the earliest days of human history. There is just something unique to men gathering around a meat pole to admire a harvest. But then, perhaps that's where the line is drawn. Not everyone enjoys admiring another's harvest.

Both have their pluses and minuses.

I love having my own place, but I miss a couple of the leases I was on back in the day. It’s the guys that make it fun. I never could replicate those first two so finally quit trying.

I was on leases even after we had our place. The system we had was one member got all of the bills sent to his house, another member wrote the checks, and another member collected the amounts due from all of the members. We all lived in Abilene, about twice a month we would gather at the VFW drink beer, tell lies and take care of business.

I can't even get my own dad to follow the mgmt plan, I can only imagine trying to get three/more non-relatives to do it.

What's odd is that there seem to be quite a few like-minded people on here-why isn't that bleeding over more into the rest?

This is mine and my wife's desire/ hope as well when we retire. I'd love to be able to buy enough land that would allow us to let our family hunt it but most likely that won't happen so I'll still try and be on my lease and just work my land to allow my children but mainly my grandchildren hunt my land.

Another option is to find a place to retire near public land that offers great hunting opportunities. While some public land is heavily hunted, I know of areas that sees few if any hunters.

it stinks anyway you look at it.