Texas Hunting Forum

Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?"

Posted By: ChadTRG42

Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 04:39 PM

Lets talk about the so called "custom turrets" and BDC reticles (BDC- ballistic drop compensating). In the last few days, I have taken multiple phone calls about this. Say you spend the money to get a quality rifle that shoots 1/2 moa or sub 1/2 moa. You spend the time and money to work up a great shooting load for it with the bullet you want and you know EXACTLY how fast the bullet is leaving the muzzle within 10 fps (20 extreme spread). Now, you want to shoot longer ranges, so an uninformed shooter orders a "custom turret" for their scope. When you order the turret, whoever makes it you have to tell them the specific conditions you will be shooting in- temp, pressure, humidity, altitude, etc. Now, the turret you have made is locked in to those conditions and those conditions ONLY!!!! If you shoot in any different environmental condition, then the turret will be incorrect. From about 300-400 yards and in, the turret will be close enough in most conditions to still get you on target for a kill shot. But after about 400 yards, the turret WILL cause a change in your trajectory. So you have a precise working system- rifle, precise ammo, shooter, and you now induce error with a custom turret. This becomes your weak link!!! I am not a fan of them at all, and actually they cause more problems than they solve.

For example, I had a customer who built a full custom rifle, had me work up a custom load for the rifle shooting 1.5" groups at 500 yards. Ammo was freakin' dead on with sub 20 fps extreme spread velocities. I told him that I don't recommend the custom turret, but he wanted it anyway. Fast forward to about 6 months later. I get a call from him all pissed off that he is upset that his group is 11" low at 500 yards with his confirmed dead on zero at 100 yards. So I said let's run the numbers. I asked him what the conditions are currently where he is shooting at. I ask him what the specs are on his so called "custom turret". He gives me all the numbers on his turret and I run the conditions from the local airport he's shooting near. I calculated a 10.2" inch low impact difference at 500 yards from his "custom turret" to the exact conditions he was shooting in. So, he has a 1.5" group at 500 yards that's 11 inches low with a custom turret that is supposed to get him on target. This is the error factor I am talking about! 11" is a miss on a deer sized animal at 500 yards. There are shooters who fling lead, and then there are precision shooters. If you are trying to be a precision shooter, then you have to use the proper tools needed to get on target.

So I ask EVERY SINGLE SHOOTER- Why on Earth would you want a "custom turret" with a high end rifle and high end ammo only to induce error into your shooting with your scope? The correct answer is to learn MOA or MILS, and calculate your EXACT environmental conditions you are currently shooting in and dial in MOA or MILS to the exact come up you need. If you are going to dial your turrets on your scope anyway, why would you not want to do it correctly? It truly blows my mind when I see shooters say they want to shoot long range and then say they want a "custom turret" for their scope. Scope companies have brain washed hunters thinking that a custom turret is what you need to shoot long range. Yes, sometimes they do work, but often times it causes a lot more trouble. And, with a custom turret set up to that rifle and ammo only, you do not learn any skills that can carry over to your other rifles. It teaches you only the setting to that rifle and that ammo. If you learn moa or mils, that skill set will carry over to ALL your rifles and scopes to get those rifles on target easier. Anyway, that's my take on the so called "custom turrets!!!"
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 04:53 PM

You're right, Chad. Unfortunately, most "hunters" won't take the time to learn moa and mils. They'd rather just buy a scope with a BDC reticle or a "custom turret". Then tape a piece of paper to their gun with yardages or adjustments for yardage, in the case of the turret.

This will work well for most hunters in most situations inside 300 yards.

Although the skill sets to which you refer are much better than BDC or turrets, not everyone wants to shoot game at long range or compete in shoots where moa or mil is imperative.
Posted By: dkershen

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 04:58 PM

Thanks for the education on this. up
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: fouzman
Although the skill sets to which you refer are much better than BDC or turrets, not everyone wants to shoot game at long range or compete in shoots where moa or mil is imperative.


Yes. But most shooters who want the custom turrets want to shoot long range. In doing so, it induces a lot of error into their trajectory. It is not as simple as the scope mfg's make it out to be once you get further out.
Posted By: Chuck McDonald

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 06:24 PM

Just gonna get me one of them Huskemaw jobbies, long range hunting will be a piece of cake.
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Chuck McDonald
Just gonna get me one of them Huskemaw jobbies, long range hunting will be a piece of cake.

Hence, exactly why I posted this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Chuck McDonald

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: Chuck McDonald
Just gonna get me one of them Huskemaw jobbies, long range hunting will be a piece of cake.

Hence, exactly why I posted this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But the TV shows make it look really easy!!!
Posted By: Texan Til I Die

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 08:29 PM

I tried to have this discussion with a friend who's relatively new to all of this stuff. He went ahead and bought a Leupold with the CDS turrets, but he hasn't sent them in yet to be set up. Does anyone know if Leupold will set up the dial with real world data? In other words, if I take my targets and bench to the deer lease and have him zero at 100, then shoot at 200, 250, 300, 350, etc and measure the actual adjustments, will the factory set up the dial with that data? I know it won't be exact due to the many environmental variables, but I think it would be somewhat better than Leupold's method of just sending them the bullet weight, BC, MV, etc and having them run it through some calculator.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Texan Til I Die
I tried to have this discussion with a friend who's relatively new to all of this stuff. He went ahead and bought a Leupold with the CDS turrets, but he hasn't sent them in yet to be set up. Does anyone know if Leupold will set up the dial with real world data? In other words, if I take my targets and bench to the deer lease and have him zero at 100, then shoot at 200, 250, 300, 350, etc and measure the actual adjustments, will the factory set up the dial with that data? I know it won't be exact due to the many environmental variables, but I think it would be somewhat better than Leupold's method of just sending them the bullet weight, BC, MV, etc and having them run it through some calculator.


Yes luppy will mark what ever input you give them. Custom turrets have there place, just don't expect it to work in higher elevation or real precise past 400.

As it sits the CDS turret is just a MOA turret....counting clicks

Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 11:01 PM

I see your point and agree with it.

A corollary to your point is: if environmental conditions (elevation, ambient temperature, humidity, barometric pressure) can make an 11" difference in POI at 500 yards, not many people have any business taking a shot at an animal at long range. (Not even talking about wind.)
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/14/16 11:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
I see your point and agree with it.

A corollary to your point is: if environmental conditions (elevation, ambient temperature, humidity, barometric pressure) can make an 11" difference in POI at 500 yards, not many people have any business taking a shot at an animal at long range. (Not even talking about wind.)


How do you get an error with any desk calculator?
Posted By: Deerhunter61

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 12:19 AM

Great real world explanation!
Posted By: glocker17

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 12:24 AM

If your were to order a turret I would zero it somewhere in the middle of your intended range, say 250 yards,and spread the error over both sides of the chart. Might not be exactly dead on at 100, but would likely have less error on the long side.
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 12:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
A corollary to your point is: if environmental conditions (elevation, ambient temperature, humidity, barometric pressure) can make an 11" difference in POI at 500 yards, not many people have any business taking a shot at an animal at long range. (Not even talking about wind.)


Yes, but shooters correct for their exact conditions all the time. When I used to compete, when we shot our cold bore shot at 1000 yards (first round out of the rifle) first thing in the morning, I had a certain come up to dial, say 24.5 moa come up. In the afternoon when temps heated up and the barometric pressure had risen, your early morning 1000 yard come up was not the same now. You may only need 23 or 23.5 moa for a come up. It makes a big difference, but it is easily accountable when you run the exact conditions you are shooting in to get on target. Sure, hunters may not be shooting game at 1000 yards, but the principle is the same. You can not just dial to a setting on your turret, and expect a dead on shot.
Posted By: Dave3575

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 01:01 AM

you can also just get 3 turrets made, 1000, 3000 and 5000 DA - that will cover most scenarios for those that just really want it. I hunt with a few guys that do that and they swap turrets out in minutes and are very successful with them.

knife, cat, skin-it - 100 ways. Me? I like mils, mils and mils.
Posted By: LandPirate

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 01:16 AM

Exactly why I have a self imposed limit of 500 yards in any hunting situation. Just not worth risking an injured animal because of an oversight on my part.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:26 AM

This all being true, it's amazing how many rely on BDC or something similar for their LR shooting. They're marketed as the "be-all-end-all eezy peezy" way to shoot at distance. Once again proving marketing trumps reality.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:33 AM

Most SFP BDC reticles don't have the hashes to get you over 400..so wouldnt say the are being used for long range.


Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Chuck McDonald
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: Chuck McDonald
Just gonna get me one of them Huskemaw jobbies, long range hunting will be a piece of cake.

Hence, exactly why I posted this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But the TV shows make it look really easy!!!


Yep. They don't show all the misses and wounded animals that crawl off to die.
Posted By: Bbear

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:39 AM

So, would it be better to just NOT send in a CDS turret and just mark your own zero? Then make whatever adjustments to zero or your 500, 600 etc mark based upon the variables?
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:39 AM

Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Most SFP BDC reticles don't have the hashes to get you over 400..so wouldnt say the are being used for long range.




The Swaro BT scope I just bought will let you mark 3 settings however you like. Mine will be at 200,300, and 400.
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:41 AM

Well that went South


Someone Googled Long Range Verbage roflmao


Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By: LandPirate
Exactly why I have a self imposed limit of 500 yards in any hunting situation. Just not worth risking an injured animal because of an oversight on my part.


I can't see past 500 anymore bang
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:43 AM

The whole point of the thread is that a bunch of Long Rangers don't have a clue. It's a valid point.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 03:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Most SFP BDC reticles don't have the hashes to get you over 400..so wouldnt say the are being used for long range.




The Swaro BT scope I just bought will let you mark 3 settings however you like. Mine will be at 200,300, and 400.


That's the turret not the reticle. Try to take that scope LR past 700 you will max elevation adjustment out most likely.

My advice once you set it adjust it....via shooting it and mapping it out at those specific ranges. A) get practice b) it's not a guess at that point. Your factory ammo specs will be off.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
The whole point of the thread is that a bunch of Long Rangers don't have a clue. It's a valid point.


I wouldnt call the example a long ranger. If he was he would of already known that he was going to be off.

That's a <400 guy thinking a generic made turret is all encompassing
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 03:21 AM

Exactly
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 01:16 PM

Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
The whole point of the thread is that a bunch of Long Rangers don't have a clue. It's a valid point.


I wouldnt call the example a long ranger. If he was he would of already known that he was going to be off.

That's a <400 guy thinking a generic made turret is all encompassing



I know you are itching to get into an argument about this, but there isn't one. The OPs customer is shooting at long range without knowing what he is doing. So he's shooting at 500 and is 11 inches off and doesn't know why. Those type folks are everywhere.

The "Long Ranger" moniker is a satirical name for the no-clue lead throwers I am referencing.

I flew an airplane from Nacogdoches to San Antonio when I was 17. The pilot never touched anything the whole time. It was easy - follow the VFR arrow and watch the horizon indicator. Does that make me a pilot? Heck no. I couldn't have taken off, landed, or gotten out of trouble if something went wrong.

I could hold the crosshairs steady and hit a gong at 800 if someone else either knew the dope for the exact conditions and/or had already established POI with previous shots. Does that make me a long range shooter? Heck no, I don't have a clue about all it took to get there.

Difference is, I know what I don't know. And I know there ain't no magic wand as so much equipment (like custom turrets, etc.) is advertised/marketed to be. Too many have bought into the hype.
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
The OPs customer is shooting at long range without knowing what he is doing. So he's shooting at 500 and is 11 inches off and doesn't know why. Those type folks are everywhere.


This is my point exactly. Shooters have been led to think (by scope mfg's) that simply dialing to a 5 on a "custom turret" will get you dead on at 500 yards. This is not always the case. The fact is, the further out you shoot, the greater the chance of being off will be. And this example was with a high end precision rifle with tuned ammo shooting 1.5" groups at 500 yards from a bench. Factor in factory ammo, the odds go even further down.
Posted By: jshouse

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:25 PM

whats a turret?
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: jshouse
whats a turret?


LOL! Good question. I almost lost it when a guy called in and said he wanted the specs on my ammo so he could get a new "turnip". I had him clarify the statement, and yes, he said turnip! That's almost as good as the Hornady Ballistic Tip!
Posted By: Choctaw

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:34 PM

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: jshouse
whats a turret?


LOL! Good question. I almost lost it when a guy called in and said he wanted the specs on my ammo so he could get a new "turnip". I had him clarify the statement, and yes, he said turnip! That's almost as good as the Hornady Ballistic Tip!


And he wants to shoot long range? eeks333
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:44 PM

Yes!! I should keep a log of the crazy calls I get. It makes for fun times around the camp fire drinking a beer.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
The whole point of the thread is that a bunch of Long Rangers don't have a clue. It's a valid point.


I wouldnt call the example a long ranger. If he was he would of already known that he was going to be off.

That's a <400 guy thinking a generic made turret is all encompassing



I know you are itching to get into an argument about this, but there isn't one. The OPs customer is shooting at long range without knowing what he is doing. So he's shooting at 500 and is 11 inches off and doesn't know why. Those type folks are everywhere.

The "Long Ranger" moniker is a satirical name for the no-clue lead throwers I am referencing.

I flew an airplane from Nacogdoches to San Antonio when I was 17. The pilot never touched anything the whole time. It was easy - follow the VFR arrow and watch the horizon indicator. Does that make me a pilot? Heck no. I couldn't have taken off, landed, or gotten out of trouble if something went wrong.

I could hold the crosshairs steady and hit a gong at 800 if someone else either knew the dope for the exact conditions and/or had already established POI with previous shots. Does that make me a long range shooter? Heck no, I don't have a clue about all it took to get there.

Difference is, I know what I don't know. And I know there ain't no magic wand as so much equipment (like custom turrets, etc.) is advertised/marketed to be. Too many have bought into the hype.


You do know I'm agreeing with you just saying 500 isn't really long range in grand scheme and the OP's client isn't a long range guy. If he was he wouldn't of been calling chad. No different then A guy calling the guy who bore sighted his rifle at basspro 3 years ago because he missed a deer at 100 yards. Let's not discuss how he also never shoot it for three years



Posted By: redchevy

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 02:56 PM

Shouldn't this be in the optics section.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: redchevy
Shouldn't this be in the optics section.


No
Posted By: redchevy

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 04:27 PM

Ok thanks.
Posted By: TexFlip

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 06:03 PM

Just get closer.
Posted By: SniperRAB

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/15/16 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: TexFlip
Just get closer.



rofl


It's like Running...They are just going to Die Tired roflmao
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/16/16 02:03 PM

Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Most SFP BDC reticles don't have the hashes to get you over 400..so wouldnt say the are being used for long range.




The Swaro BT scope I just bought will let you mark 3 settings however you like. Mine will be at 200,300, and 400.


That's the turret not the reticle. Try to take that scope LR past 700 you will max elevation adjustment out most likely.

My advice once you set it adjust it....via shooting it and mapping it out at those specific ranges. A) get practice b) it's not a guess at that point. Your factory ammo specs will be off.





Yeah, I kinda knew all that.
Posted By: 603Country

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/16/16 04:52 PM

I'm still chuckling over the Turnip. Now when I look at my rifle and scope, I think "turnip". It's like having that song in your head that won't go away.
Posted By: Hunt n Fish

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/18/16 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
The whole point of the thread is that a bunch of "wanna be" Long Rangers don't have a clue. It's a valid point.




Fixed it for ya............ up
Posted By: Mr. Clean

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/18/16 03:44 PM

To those that want to shoot long ranges....live it learn it and love it.
Posted By: Nathan at Fork

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/19/16 12:51 AM

I jus yuse kentuky windij.
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/31/16 07:52 PM

Chad is preaching optics/ distance shooting gospel.
Posted By: chital_shikari

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/31/16 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: dkershen
Thanks for the education on this. up
X2
Posted By: sparrish8

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 12/31/16 10:10 PM

Yea my muzzleloader was 8" different at 200 yards at 6000 altitude vs. 30
Posted By: Buzzsaw

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 01/02/17 02:05 AM

holy crap how did I end up here??? I've been watching the Twilight Zone Marathon for 2 days.


started reading this, thought I was stuck in the custom Turret Twilight Zone

just a nightmare
just a nightmare
just a nightmare
Posted By: Trackman

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 01/02/17 02:07 PM

Chad I understand your point completely. I have 2 huskemaws and a 2 nightforces all with BCT on them. I shoot around 50 rounds a month 12 months a year. I have them for altitude ranges 2500,5000,7500,10000 ft. All are zero at 200yds but when I travel to hunt the first thing I do is re-zero at 500yds it takes very little time and takes most of the guessing out of the equation.If everyone that has a turret would be willing to do that most all there problems with hitting a deer would be eliminated. I shoot out too 1000 off my back porch often and would be willing to take a shot at a trophy at 800yds if I were on the ground and very little wind. But hunting in a tall box blind in 20 mph winds I have a hard time trying to get a steady hold on a animal at 500yds I shot a 163in buck last year that was in the scope out of the scope as the stand was moving at 365yds. No way I would have taken the shot if it would have been any further out. People that go buy the system and don't shoot it in high winds and practice alot are going to be disappointed. The systems work well for people who practice shooting small targets often at long distances.
Posted By: Buzzsaw

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 01/02/17 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Trackman
Chad I understand your point completely. I have 2 huskemaws and a 2 nightforces all with BCT on them. I shoot around 50 rounds a month 12 months a year. I have them for altitude ranges 2500,5000,7500,10000 ft. All are zero at 200yds but when I travel to hunt the first thing I do is re-zero at 500yds it takes very little time and takes most of the guessing out of the equation.If everyone that has a turret would be willing to do that most all there problems with hitting a deer would be eliminated. I shoot out too 1000 off my back porch often and would be willing to take a shot at a trophy at 800yds if I were on the ground and very little wind. But hunting in a tall box blind in 20 mph winds I have a hard time trying to get a steady hold on a animal at 500yds I shot a 163in buck last year that was in the scope out of the scope as the stand was moving at 365yds. No way I would have taken the shot if it would have been any further out. People that go buy the system and don't shoot it in high winds and practice alot are going to be disappointed. The systems work well for people who practice shooting small targets often at long distances.

Well said, it doesn't matter what system you use, just practice and know your limitations
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 01/18/17 04:29 PM

I had another situation come up again today with problems with a custom turret. Figured it would be a good time to bump this topic!
Posted By: 2Gemsranch

Re: Do you REALLY want a "Custom Turret?" - 01/19/17 07:50 PM

You shot at a trophy caliber buck when the deer was moving in and out of the scope due to the wind. Not a very good idea in my opinion. But that's my opinion
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