end of season

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Depending on your perspective, the cup could be half full...sounds like you just got a free high fence around your place.

UMM
Your feeder is 50 yards from his property line.
You have shot 2 bucks last year and two this year and doe, on 56 acres.

I apologize, feeder is not 50 yards from his property line. Feeder is 200yds+
Stand is 50 yds from property line with thick brush between stand and fence.

Again, we are covered up with bucks, young and mature. I see 15+ doe and 2-3 different bucks each time I go out.
Two of the 3 neighboring properties are not hunted.

Right depends on where the deer were primarily being drawn in from, the to be high fenced area or the other direction ranches and if the prior landowner is right about all of the other neighbors being aligned against them, they could be completely high fenced in eventually and that would suck..

56 acres and you've already taken 3 deer this year with plans to take several more? I'd be temped to high fence you in as well. Hamilton has decent deer numbers, but at that rate youre on course to shoot out the area in a couple seasons. Frankly you should feel blessed to take a deer a year on such a small parcel. But resorting to hunter harassment techniques is not cool on his part. Just build a fence.

Not knowing the numbers out there but hearing abundant, I will not question the poster. The landowner was likely well aware that the property would be hunted when he sold it so kind of bogus on his part assuming the bucks were mature and abundant deer out that way. Taking two mature bucks a season and a doe don't sound like more than the area can tolerate if all is being told on the up and up.

I never said there were plans to shoot several more. I stated there were several more mature and past mature bucks as well as some that needed to be culled. I never said that was going to happen this season.

Granted, if i was sitting in the stand and the Big 8 I passed on opening weekend were to step out, he'd be added to the list.

Sounds like the previous land owner has spent the money and didn't expect your aunt and uncle to actually use the place. Idiots are everywhere.

4 mature bucks in 2 years and still hunting for more on 56 acres? You might be "that" neighbor

Maybe/maybe not, would be somewhat interesting to know what kind of conversations transpired during the property sale around discussions of property usage, hunting expectations and anticipated usage and frequency, etc. and if the prior landowner gave off any signals one way or another. As Creek said, could just be a guy that didn't expect or hope that the buyer would use much if at all, especially if that was potentially communicated during the land sale. Anything else outside of being there is purely speculative now.

Sounds like your 56 acres is funding his high fence. Nobody talks to anybody anymore

He could be, but all 56 acre tracts aren't created equal.

I am not knocking the OP, I am just looking at it through the neighbors eyes (not a bad idea for the OP either).
The land may be plentiful in deer, but even at the best, 56 acres is likely not going to support shooting 2 trophy bucks a year, and probably more to come. You are shooting deer what the surrounding land owners have created by low hunting pressure. So clearly the neighbor sees new hunting pressure as a threat.
Just something to think about.

Yup, usually two sides to every argument...

LO is spending a lot of money to prove his point or have his way. Seems extreme to me.

It could be to your advantage. It will keep him from shooting over the fence. As already has been pointed out, the deer you are seeing do not live on your property. They are crossing it. One high fence will not hurt you. I do not think all of the other land owners will spring for a HF. It they did, then its time to put up the "For Sale" sign.

The original owner shouldn't have sold that if he still wanted to tell people what to do on it. Deer are a public resource. They don't belong to him anyway.

I have a small place next to me probably 30 acres in size. He shoots several deer a year off his property. Believe me if I owned the land he would have been high fenced out years ago.

You cant control what your neighbors do on their own land. That goes both ways. They cant control you from bringing in a bunch of people and shooting every legal deer they see, and you cant control him or your other neighbors from putting up a high fence. That being said, for you both to get along there must be compromises on both sides. If not, you will have to deal with the consequences. Yes, you can go on shooting as many deer as you want and he can go on putting up his high fence which sounds like it will greatly effect your hunting. Sounds like there needs to be a lot of communication between neighbors to get things settled to an acceptable medium. Both sides will have to give.

But, if they are already in the process of putting up the high fence and not just talking about it then you may just be screwed. Just depends on how your property is set up. Being a small property, you aren't holding deer, they are just traveling through. If his high fence causes the deer to take a different path then through your property then your deer hunting days may be drastically affected.

Yeah I would say as a neighbor, 4 bucks on 56 acres in 2 years would get my attention too.

I have 40 acres and I've taken 2 spikes in 6 years. I've shot 2 bobcats and 2 hogs. Passed on a 3rd bobcat.

Not sure who the crazy neighbor is?

interesting

My thoughts exactly.

we have 650 acres under MLD3 in Coryell County, not terribly far from Hamilton. We have 6 buck tags issued to us. That means 1 buck, including culls, etc per 100 acres. On 56 acres, honestly, one buck per year is pushing it from a game management perspective. The landowner (your uncle) is going to allow the area to be shot out quickly if he allows extended family to continue to come out and hunt.

Just for a bit of perspective, neighbors that own larger tracts spend increasingly large sums of money on habitat management and quality management in deer herds. No one specifically WANTS to high fence. It is expensive and honestly makes herd management increasingly more difficult. BUT, landowners end up deciding to spend the money when neighbors (it usually is smaller acreage neighbors) don't share management visions.

I understand that no one owns the deer and you are certainly free to shoot every deer you see, but they are free to take exception and fence you out.

I guess my question is are the other neighbors high fencing you in too?
That one rancher talked three other people into fencing you in?

If so that would be seen as collusion in the courts.

Not sure of the location of your property, but in East Texas, it takes roughly 100 acres of good deer habitat (good browse and cover) to support a harvest rate of one good buck per year. I'm not sure there is anywhere in Texas that can support a harvest rate of four bucks over two seasons on just 56 acres.

But with hunting and the "me" mentality now being what it is, I can easily see hunters doing their best to tag out every season on as little as 10 acres, so long as their neighbors provide the habitat.

It seems obvious the rule of them should be, how many deer could your property support in a natural setting if your neighbors high fenced you in.

Nothing you can do about it. But I understand him saying youre killing too many deer for your acreage and fencing you out. 56 acres standing alone aint gonna support squat.......youre dependent on the neighbor for most of your killing. Good luck.

No question, buying small tracts to do just that is quickly becoming the trend.

His property. He can do what he wants with it. I have a small LF place with different neighbors on 3 sides. There has been 1 doe taken off it this year. I sat there yesterday afternoon and had 6 does and an 8 point Buck at the feeder. I have seen as many as 4 Bucks at one time. Have not shot any.If any Buck is shot there it will be by my Grandson and it will only be one. I get along very well with the neighbors.

Doubt the half section is overrun with deer, he's pulling them too. Costly to HF on that size place. Good luck to both of you.

Also why HFs are a trend

Right or wrong if that was my 56 acres I would corn every road and open area on it heavy and keep the hunting to a bare min. before that high fence went up. Be very careful that you do not take too many bucks, you and your other neighbors could benefit from this.

I would go and talk to the neighbor and try to work it out between you both.
If he is seriously talking about the high fence then maybe it is time for the for sale sign if that is the main reason for owning the property.
Your 56 acres can't support the amount of harvest you are doing, and in fact you are hunting both your property and the neighbors by your kill numbers.
Maybe it's not too late to make amends.

To be honest it sounds like you had a little gold mine going and your neighbors got tired of it. You took too many deer for that amount of acreage a blind on the fence-line and now have some ticked of neighbors. For your neighbors to respond that harshly and that fast tells it's own story. It would take a real problem neighbor for me to go to the extent of putting in a hi-fence. Let me also add that you mentioned the word cull on 56 low-fence acres and I have to ask are you serious?

This thread reminds me of back a few years when someone posted the pictures of several trophy bucks he had taken over a couple of years and defended the fact that he was between two huge ranches that weren't being hunted.
Funny we don't see those posts any longer so maybe the high fence caught up with him as well?

Yeh how dare someone hunt a small piece of land.

Fixed it for ya!

Times are changing. My family owns quite a bit of land. We have one place that is 975 ac and to the south of that place a family bought a place that is 234 ac (I know we tried to buy it-but brought more than we were willing to pay)We have 612 ac that borders them on the west too. They are nice people, but They hunt that place as if it were 10,000 ac. They are out there almost every weekend starting dove season thru deer season..they fill numerous tags (one year they killed 9 deer) uncles, brothers, cousins all come out. We don't hunt our properties much.my nephews and I might hunt the land around that place two times a year because of the "Rambos" on that place. I cannot really hold it against the new land owners. I grew up with it and am spoiled to have the land resources available to me, but I understand the original landowners feelings in this topic.I also know why people in some small communities are "clickish"--because folks come in as new land Barrons- (overpay for small parcels of land) and expect to be part of the community 3 months out of the year.

Why did the neighbor sell the 56 acres? My guess is to pay for the HF that was already planned.

Now that was a mouth full, but spot on.

These discussions keep pointing to the relative ease in killing deer with the aid of food plots and feeders. This past weekend I heard two feeders go off on an adjacent track that could not be more than 25 acres of deer holding habitat. Without a feeder to pull deer from adjacent properties, such small tracts would be far less attractive for hunting.

The problem didn't exist before the days of food plots and feeders when it was necessary to actually "hunt" deer in order to fill an ice chest. Nowadays, you can lease the right 10 acre pasture, put a feeder near each fence, and tag out with relative ease.

Could be. Either that or he is not very smart. Gotta know what's coming when you sell 56 acres in Hamilton.

We just bought 195 acres. One side is a large tract of land, sizeable wheat fields and not hunted. The other side 1200 acres with 7 hunters I believe. Locals have told us they shoot anything that moves. We are going with archery only and hope to provide enough feed and good habitat to draw what we need in. Not everyone has the money to spend on a large tract. But they need to realize small tracts don't grow and hold large numbers of deer. That's why I intend to keep a deer lease so I can draw all the blood I want and not over hunt the 195.

Hamiltons not that sought after as before...

Hey THawk - don't go away so quick - there is actually good opinion and perspective here. Noticed you deleted your original post. Hope it works out for all involved.

But the OP stated the landowner and the OP's family are (were) tight. Sounds to me like the use of said 56 acres increased well above what was intended or expected. Surely the man didn't sell 56 acres to his friends with the understanding that they, their kids, cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews and friends would all be hunting every weekend. And trying to fill their tags.

Discussing habitat, management and harvest strategies with the larger landowners around you, BEFORE hunting season, typically prevents these scenarios. And whether or not the adjoining ranches are hunted or not is irrelevant. You're killing someone else's deer on 56 acres. Kill a buck here, a doe there and you'll be fine. Do what you and your family have done and get fenced out. In your case, that fence makes for a good neighbor.

You can sell with what you think is an "understanding", but it doesn't mean anything. When you sell, you sell. The person you sell it to can sell it the next day. Or next year. If you have any sort of expectation for a tract's continued use a certain way, you should never sell it. Period. Any landowner should know that.

Using a HF as a "neighbor management tool" is not an ideal solution - even for the one putting up the fence on one side. It affects the one putting up the fence just like the one being "fenced out". The effects all depend on the particular tracts involved. All it does is stop deer travel/movement along one side of a property. Which kinda sucks. In many cases it's not a solution at all.

You're right but, in this instance, it would seem to be the landowner's only solution. The OP doesn't sound like he or his family are going to adjust their practices. "Some that need to be culled out"?

Congratulations on your purchase! The wife and I hope to purchase 100-200 acres for a home place to retire on and to provide a place for the family, mainly grandchildren, to hunt. I too plan to stay on a lease so I can hunt and not over hunt the land I'm purchasing/hope to purchase.

I agree but sometimes you have no choice. I have 3 small acreage tracts (10 to 20 acres) bordering the southwest fence line and they shoot whatever crosses the fence. It's just a matter of time until they push me too far. Upside is I'll quit losing so many deer to these folk's and the downside is it pretty much removes their chances of taking a deer on their own place in the future. What their shooting is coming off my place. Sad part is it didn't have to be this way.

The HF crowd is usually the elitists that think they own all of the deer. Deer are public unless they are in your zoo. It makes me sick to see these rich snobs fencing in the wildlife.

In this case, they're fencing out the slob hunters.

Trying to protect the value of your lifelong investment from people who spend a years salary and admit to pulling deer (the value) from your place is "elitist"?

Incredible.

95+% of high fences aren't put up to hurt their neighbors. They're put up as a last resort because the neighbors want more for less and abuse you to get it.

Cannot disagree more.

HAve posted it many times on this forum, but a friend of mine has 500 acres in Gillespie County and though they're land rich, they basically run sheep and lease hunting rights. A few years back, some yahoo bought 50 acres, split it into 5 10-acre tracts, and you guessed it: All 5 10-acre tracts had feeders running on their fenceline and they were all shooting deer.

Place went from having a very stable population to almost zero deer in 1 year.

They talked with the other landowners and HF'd in that 50 acres. The new owners were furious, but they were literally weekend warriors from Austin that had no clue that deer weren't unlimited resources.

There are a lot of circumstances where HF'ing bad neighbors out makes sense and isn't an issue of "elitists". If you're not being a steward of the land as a small landowner, you are just as much to blame for what happens.

***I'm a small landowner***

Going to weigh in here, but somewhat different circumstances, but I too have a smaller place that is deer heavy. We bought it to eventually build on and live full time once kids are out of school. Our place is surrounded by both small tracts, and some larger tracts - a few as small as 18 acres, but mostly in the 80 - 400 acre range. All low fence and very rural/rough.

From a landowner's perspective, the property is mine and I will do with it what I want. I have the right to shoot what I want, and as often as I choose. And can also bring friends and relatives to shoot if I choose. If a neighbor feels the need to build a high fence, so be it, but unless I was totally blocked in, I don't think that would really serve any purpose other that blocking the natural migration of deer. Just as likely to help me as hurt.

From a good neighbor standpoint, I have met with several of my neighbors and let them know my intentions. I've planted several food plots, feed year round, and have placed two stands in the center of the property so not to impact other's opportunities. I am also allowing the bedding areas to stay in native state. Not sure about the original poster, but in my case, my place is denser than many of the surrounding properties with good cover that keeps the deer on me.

In the two years I've owned the property, I have yet to shoot while hunting, although MANY opportunities. I see doe on every hunt, and have seen a number of mature bucks, and a lot of big deer on cameras, but while hunting, I haven't seen a deer that excited me enough to take. As a group though, with the neighbors I've met so far, we do feel at some point we should take several does as there are probably too many. Regardless, I will probably only take one, and if I let anyone else hunt my property, they'll be doe only and limited to one. If as a group we decide more should be taken at some point, I will act accordingly.

Now, if a trophy comes through, I have as much right to him as anyone else and I will gladly take him. It just doesn't make sense to me to shoot every legal buck I see - just because it is legal (AR County). It also doesn't seem neighborly of me to allow tons of pressure on my small place, which ultimately impacts surrounding properties.

Bottom line, while I have the right to shoot more, I feel discretion is more important for not only maintaining quality hunting, but good relations with my neighbors. I am lucky in that my neighbors are in agreement and seem to have similar goals for their parcels. Unfortunately for the OP, it sounds like the neighbor wanting to HF made a decision before any conversation could take place. That is too bad as he will probably only spend a lot of money, and not get the benefits he is expecting. A conversation over a campfire could have probably solved the issue without all of the heartburn.

Not trying to take sides as I can definitely see both sides of the disagreement. Just seems too bad that is got to this point before all had a chance to discuss.

It's not a good situation for either party. That's for sure.

Yeah, see, you're not really very similar to the OP and likely wouldn't present an issue to a neighbor.

I kinda have the same issue, though I don't really care. Guy that I know and like hunts 15 acres bordering me and shoots several deer every year. His place is a great pinch point, and he actually sees more bucks than I do on my 80 acres (also not a huge place). We have a higher population than people that hunt, so it's not really an issue at all and I'm happy for him. Do kinda chuckle when he freaks out about hearing a bunch of gun shots though, because he's the guys shooting multiple deer on 15 acres.

Agreed. Those hunting such small tracts should consider how many deer their tract would support WITHOUT the benefit of their neighbor's habitat.

If most landowners were like you two, there would be very few high fences.

That's really not fair either though. Especially if the neighbors don't hunt.

Edited to say: I hunt on 100 acres. Have passed on several deer already this year that were legal bucks or does. I have no intention of shooting a bunch of deer off of our place, and I understand what you are coming from. The neighbors in my area hunt, so I try to be selective about how many deer I shoot. But there are lots of places in Texas where small tracts of land are surrounded by thousands of unhunted or lightly hunted acres.

Of course, and that all plays in.

One of my small places is 76 acres in a bottom area that has a couple of large tracts (600 acres) on either side and a smattering of small tracts surrounding as well. All in all, it's probably about 2000 acres of very high density land where it's not uncommon to see a herd (15-20) of deer in a sitting. The TPWD gives me 3 doe tags even though I'm only 76 acres because overpopulation is a legitimate concern some years. Couple that with the fact that most people out there simply refuse to shoot does, and you can see how some of the smaller owners can still shoot more than what would typically be their reasonable allotment and have it actually benefit, not hurt the herd. I've shot a grand total of 2 bucks (not including spikes) out there in 5 years, and they were both decent 8 pts, but I pass on 9 out of 10 legal bucks I see. I try to take all 3 does, but a lot of times it just doesn't work out.

It's really, really important to get together with your neighbors and figure out what makes sense, but that rarely occurs because everyone wants to be the 1 guy that breaks the plan expecting everyone else to follow it.

So your logic is that since the large neighbors don't hunt or hunt lightly, it's ok to shoot more deer than your 100 or his 56 acres could support on its own? That's fine and dandy if you have spoken to and have an agreement/understanding with those other landowners.

That's where it sounds like the OP and his family went wrong. Even though they knew the previous and adjoining landowner well, it doesn't sound like they discussed deer hunting, harvest, etc. with him beforehand. Had they, then he would have never erected a high fence. Now that he has, it's too late to discuss.

On small acreage it's always best to keep as low a profile as possible. Don't brag to the neighbor about what you've killed. If he asked what all the shooting was, just say, "there are sure a lot of coyotes out here."
If he puts up a fence only on one side it shouldn't hurt the hunting that much with the large unhunted properties on the other sides.
Just keep feeding them and put out water if it's dry and hold the deer close to your property.
I've hunted a ranch that was high fenced on one side and we had a hunter who took a 172" B&C buck off the place. The high fence the bucks like to use to corral the does during the rut. They will run the doe up to the fence and use it to block the does from escaping.

To some extent that's exactly what I'm saying. If nobody is hunting except for you on several thousand acres worth of property, then shooting 2 or 3 deer a year is not going to be any kind of issue. I don't know how many deer 56 acres can naturally support, maybe it's more than I assume it is. I'm guessing it's 1. But maybe it's more than that.

And if those land owners around you don't hunt, and you know they don't hunt, I doubt they care to have a conversation about how many deer you are taking.

My south fence is bordered by 12 twenty acre parcels. There's a feeder and blind every 100 yards along the mile of fence. Without a high fence them, their brothers, cousins, buddies, in-laws, out-laws and brothers would shoot every deer that crossed.

Who's worse, the man that fences out a slob or the slob that shoots all the deer? Neither own them but one takes permanent possession by killing everything in sight. Danged Democrat hunters, always putting down people that have done alright for themselves.

Everybody in Texas assumes that that every other property near them shoots everything that walks. That's simply not true. It's true some times, but not every time.

Nothing wrong with holding back some of your share for later!

High fences aren't all bad unless you are completely fenced in on a small tract.
I've seen deer jump an 8' fence standing flat footed next to one (terrible landing) and I've seen where the hogs make a hole or push up the wire and deer use it as well.
Wind storm and floods knock down fences all the time.
I've hunted next to high fenced ranches and had B&C bucks and exotics on the place and they weren't stocked on our ranch either.
It's not the end of the world is all I'm sayin!

Communication is the key, as I noted earlier. Those large neighbors don't hunt or hunt lightly for a reason. If you buy land adjacent to them and start doing a bunch of shooting, you're apt to get fenced out. It's your land and you can do on it as you wish. It's their adjoining land. Treat the boundary deer with respect and enjoy the great location. Abuse the boundary deer and pay the consequence (fenced out).

A clear example of why the problem would disappear if we went back to the days when it was illegal to bait deer.

I do agree with all that. But I'm not talking about abusing the resource either. I edited an earlier post to add that I don't know exactly how many acres 1 deer needs to sustain itself, but that shooting a couple of deer a year off of your 100acres and the neighbors unhunted 2k acres was not going to do any harm. Shooting 25 deer a year probably would.

With the increase of small landowners, it would seem that we will ultimately end up with a rule of one antler restricted buck and no doe most years. If that doesn't work, they will eliminate baiting.

Or limit deer to acreage owned base on population surveys.

Or restrict baiting on a county basis, just as the current county-based bag limits. Those counties with higher numbers of small tracts would see an end to baiting.

Baiting has nothing to do with it if it's based on population and acreage. Some smaller acreage might not even qualify for one deer if the population isn't there. Others might be over populated and get one to two tags. We've got 3 sections that we try to limit to 2 bucks and 4 does per section, bad year might be one buck and two does. Let me also add that if it wasn't for blinds and feeders we'd be overrun with deer to the point they'd run into some serious problems due to starvation or disease.

Yes. The fact of the matter is, all things considered, overall deer populations in Texas are doing fine and have been doing fine for many years. Quality also. Sure, there are problems, always have been and always will be. But all the agenda driven crap is (for the most part) just that. Crap.

Dan, your Good Ol' Days you pine for are now. Not in the 50s or 60s or 70s when you couldn't find so much as a deer track in much of Texas.

They were Good Ole Days not because there wasn't enough deer, but because very few hunters fought over how many and which ones to harvest. The increased difficulty took care of such issues.

Exactly what time period are you talking about? Are we talking 50 years ago maybe 60 because that was a time when we didn't even have a hunt-able population of deer here in my area of Texas and if one was lucky enough to have a few deer they were limited as to what they could take. In many cases it was bucks only and limited to one with no doe tags.The goal of a hunter back then was to just fill a tag. Now we're a 2 buck 2 doe with a late season spike or antlerless and if everybody just decided to fill their tags we'd have them knocked back down to a un-hunt-able population in less than 5 years.

That was also a time when we gathered together and 10 people could lease 10 sections for about 100 dollars a gun. Those same 10 people would then go crashing all over the terrain run deer completely off the place and if they were lucky enough to get a shot at the 1 or 2 bucks you seen that day it was running. I was there Dan! I seen all the dink bucks hanging on the A-frames and that is certainly not a time I want to go back to. We've come a long ways and now have a large population of whitetails across most of Texas and all the credit goes to those who walked away from the "brown it's down" or "can't eat antlers" club. The fact that more people are getting consistently larger bucks than back then is simply because we as hunters are just giving them time to age. Now if you want to shoot up all the dink bucks just to fill your tags so be it but don't pine for the good old days because back then that was hardly possible, just say thank you to those who self imposed their own standards and let them walk. And don't act all surprised when the adjacent owner who holds hunting whitetails to a higher standard fences your arse out, because you made him do it.

I agree with Hwy_Man. The old days were mostly meat hunting and a big buck weighed 90 lbs..

You guys cannot see the forest for the trees.

If it were not so easy to fill tags these days as a result of feeder hunting, there would be far fewer complaints from landowners who have neighbors taking far more deer than their small tracts will support.

Now these small tract hunters can rationalize their position by claiming that the surrounding areas support enough deer to go around for everyone. However, that doesn't negate the fact that they are draining from a resource without investing near as much supporting habitat as their neighbors, and are only able to do it by using feeders to draw deer continuously from their neighbor's land. If their neighbors cannot make it more difficult for them to drain the resource by taking away their feeders, their only choice is to cut off their access to it.

But then, we seem to have no shortage these days of those who enjoy taking more while adding little back.

Sorry Dan but if anybody is stuck behind the tree's it's you. A feeder has never shot a deer that I know of, that choice is left to the person pulling the trigger. Hunting a feeder is no different than hunting a field, waterhole or a trail going to either, all just take advantage of a deer's known needs.

I think i would get a biologist or someone who knows about deer management to go out to your place and help determine how many deer can/should be taken. I know of a guy who has about 40 acres (somewhere) and got a biologist out there and said he could take 2 or 3 does (can't remember which) but 0 bucks. Since he's owned it, that's what he has done.

Now if a monster buck walked out, I think majority of us would take him down, no matter if we owned 400 acres or 40.

I wouldn't feel bad about taking more deer on a small place if i was feeding protein year round and doing other things for the overall deer population.

I am NOT a high fence guy...period. I can't imagine myself EVER going to a HF ranch to kill a deer. Frankly it just doesn't excite me in the least. That being said, I hope to own some land in the near future and if there was a neighbor that was taking more than the land he owns could support so that it was impacting me and my family I would, if I had the $$$$$$, HF the section/s that bordered the neighbors land.

This has nothin to do with being an elitist! It has everything to do with effectively managing and caring for the land. My wife and I hope to purchase a couple of hundred acres to retire on and to give our kids and grandkids a place to hunt with the plan being that I stay on my deer lease so they can be the ones to actually take deer on our place. And there would be a bag limit for the land so that we are not taking too many deer off the place each year.

The problem with some of these folks with small acreage is that either they do not understand that ten to twenty acres simply can't support taking even one deer much less 2,3,4 or 5. And they refuse to listen to anyone. They have the "it's my land and I'll do what I want with it" mentality which blinds them to the fact that what they are doing is impacting those around them. And then there are the others, which unfortunately are in the majority these days, they know that what they are doing is screwing with everyone around them etc and they simply don't care....in fact a lot of them actually get some type of perverse pleasure knowing they are screwing with others...they are simply jerks who know they are being jerks and enjoy being jerks...

So that is why when I read a post like this I understand why some LO HF portions of their land. And it's why I would consider doing so.

We cannot overlook the fact that feeders and food plots only provide supplemental food sources, and do not create the supporting factor that many hunters believe. The fact is, it takes plenty of natural browse to support good deer numbers, so much so that if the habitat is sufficient, supplemental feeding isn't necessary.

However, I'm sure the small tract hunter who feeds continuously while limiting his harvest to what is fair, given the amount of browse his tract provides, is going to be viewed more favorably by his neighbors who provide far more of the habitat that is truly critical.

IMO, this is a valuable discussion that needs to be spread throughout the deer hunting community.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

I hate to see the state have to step in and regulate on a population/acreage basis but until they do the fences will keep going up. I simply can not maintain a healthy population of deer when I have 11 blinds sitting less than 100 yards outside my fence.

It's a good discussion, but it is a limited discussion that concerns mainly neighbor relations and very localized conditions. It doesn't impact overall deer populations and the health/quality of the deer herd statewide (or even countywide).

For every small tract owner that overhunts their place, there others who don't hunt their tracts at all and thus benefit surrounding properties. Probably goes for larger tracts too. And as HWYMAN points out, hunters overall are much more cognizant of basic management practices than in the "good Ol' days". All of which has made whitetail hunting in Texas so much better than it used to be that there's really no comparison.

I don't think the state will ever step in and impose such regulations with a deer herd of over 4 million and an annual harvest of 400,000-500,000. Not to mention the fact that they would have riots on Austin if smaller landowners were told they could not hunt deer on their property.

Private property rights are not defined as only "larger landowner private property rights". Although many would like it that way.

I understand the problem. I have it too.

That's a fair assessment, but one that should be revisited as the sport continues to evolve.

Very true but the state does have the right to determine the when, where, how and how many of the state regulated game animals may be taken regardless of whether it's private property or not.

Sure. I just highly doubt they would alienate so many small landowners and restrict their rights to such a drastic degree unless there were a population crisis statewide or regionwide.

We are fine...

Just gotta keep the Democrats out of office...

Do our elected officials want to be re-elected?

# of people that own small tracts >>>>>>>>>>>>>> # of people that own large tracts

Ok I had to weigh in on this, some of you guys just kill me. You talk like these are YOUR deer. Like some guy who has a small acreage next to a large plot of land is poaching YOUR deer. I love the guy that posted, "How dare they hunt a small plot of land." I have seen some elitist people before but ,good night, some of you guys take the cake. As a matter of fact, it IS their land and they can do with it what they want. That doesn't mean I agree with those that shoot everything that moves either. The way some of you talk, I should never even hunt my lease, EVER, because I am taking somebody elses deer. My son and I shoot 1 and sometimes two deer a year on our lease. And our deer numbers and quality have increased over the years. We do not shoot does (we have a few what I consider resident does that frequent the area) because this seems to draw more bucks during the rut. Once the rut is over, we see our buck numbers drastically fall off. This is the nature of the place where we hunt. It is a large wheat/cotton field (not sure of the acreage) with a small sliver of woods in one corner (probably less than 20 acres on our property). We have a feeder on the edge of the woods that we share with other hunters on other land. These woods are part of a drain that eventually ends up in the Red River. These bucks cruise from the River to find the does in our area. This is why we stop seeing good bucks after the rut and of course due to hunting pressure. I ask you, do these bucks belong to the landowners between me and the Red. Am I poaching THEIR deer because I am hunting a small parcel of land.

And another subject that gets into my craw. The population number is sheer speculation based on very little data. Between the big ranch, my place and the other large landowners in this county, (most of us know each other) we can all agree on one thing. The state doesn't have a clue how many deer we have per square mile, they've never set foot on the place. Hell we have a growing population of Aoudad on the Cap Rock that the state doesn't even know is there along with a nice population of Mule Deer. Even their harvest report cannot be used as firm data since a large amount of deer hunters process their own. Those deer never get counted. A more accurate way of collecting that data would be for the licence holder to turn in their old licence when purchasing their new one and collect data from there. And yes even that will miss some due to those never tagged but it's a damn sight closer than what they do now. Now with all that said let me also add that the state cannot afford to do this my way so we're stuck with what we have.

Well many of us are now under antler restrictions enforced by the state.

They come allot closer to being my deer than they do anybody else's. I haven't seen a penny from you the state or anybody else to help maintain the deer population on this place, let me also add that I'm the one who determines if a deer can even be taken off the place, not you the state or anybody else. I can even go as far as to restrict them from ever leaving the place and again not you, the state or anybody else can keep me from doing it.

Are far out numbered by the people who own neither, you want to take that risk?

Your neighbors can say the exact same things. They are landowners too. Always interesting to me that big landowners consider their rights to be king as somehow superior to the rights of smaller landowners. For example, trumpeting your right to HF as a sacred "private property right" because it benefits larger landowners, while at the same time perfectly willing to have the state tell smaller landowners that they can't even shoot a deer on their land if you think it affects you.

Surely you can see the inconsistency. Bottom line as I said, many define "private property rights" as only those that benefit them, even if they restrict others.

Again, I am in your shoes. But I try to see all sides.

I said if it was based on population and acreage smaller acreage could lose that right, not sure where you think I approved of it.

HWY_MAN, you are not the only one who determines if a deer can be taken off your property. The state can and has gone into private property and ordered the destruction of deer against the land owner and the common sense of what CWD is, but they can and have the right to control what they consider theirs, that it, game animals.

Sure, you can direct harvest numbers for hunters and such, but don't think you are the only one in charge.

I'm the guy that said that. Calm down, I was being scarcastic.

Once we have this issue settled, we can take on the issue of low fence day hunting where a landowner brings in a new group of hunters with a fresh set of tags every weekend with hopes of taking as many deer as they can haul off in their ice chests. After all, Texas has plenty of deer and no one owns any of them. And who has the right to tell a landowner what he/she can do with their 50 acre tract.

Dan that certainly does happen, but as a whole we've come a long way with the deer population in this great state.

I have tons and tons of deer every time I sit (probably way too many if we didn't feed tons of protein per month) and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I WORRY ABOUT MYSELF AND NO OTHER. Their land. Their rules.

I get it, this would be frustrating, but if the population didn't bear it, the business would dry up really quickly. Deer aren't like rabbits or hogs, they aren't breeding 3-4 times a year...if there are enough deer to run a business with new clients shooting a place up every weekend, then that place is probably over-populated. Not saying I advocate such practices, quite the contrary.

This thread is still going on and the OP deleted his post three days ago?!? Awesome.

Lol we remember what it said.

What I seem to be hearing is that there are some on here that oppose HF's on "Private Property". It seems to sound like those that oppose them can't raise enough deer to suit their needs. It sounds like since they can't do that they need to take deer that others who must have better knowledge raise. Kind of like parasites that are living off the coat tails of others. And as for having to be a rich man to build a HF I also beg to differ. I am far from being a rich man and have HF my property. The most expensive part of fencing is the labor. So to those crying about it if you can get off your lazy a** you could do it too.

All you are hearing from me is private property rights are private property rights. Thus, it's hypocritical for someone to argue them for their benefit and then advocate restricting them for others when their ox is the one getting gored.

Right now, you can HF your place and your neighbors can shoot all the deer their licenses allow on their place. All in the name of private property rights.

IMO neighbors shooting too many deer and other neighbors HFing their places as a result is a poor outcome for both. Shooting neighbor will soon be left with an empty sack and HF neighbor is now shooting livestock. But that's another (worn out) topic.

Okay, I've been reading this for 3 days so let me jump in and stir the pot a little. I have a small place (77 acres) that is very very thick woods. I have on south and west side two 500+ acre wheat fields. 3rd side also a small place but does not hunt and 4th side is large coastal field. There are deer stands on the fence line on 3 sides of me and they are just waiting for the deer to jump my fence and eat in the wheat and coastal fields. I am a small place and they are large yet they are killing "My Deer" that live on my land. I feed year round, plant fall and summer plots, etc. So, it is not always the small guy who is the one taking advantage of his neighbors, sometimes it is the big one with no cover.

Materials alone will be nearly $2 a foot. That adds up in a hurry for a lot of people.

Wonder what the carrying capacity of 77 acres is...

Don't know how many my 77 acres has, but I am able to get a nice one every year and I hear them shooting every now and then. Last year the processor said my wife's buck was the biggest one brought in and this year he said mine was at the time. I have to say at the time because it was just Sunday afternoon of opening weekend, but I was very happy with it.

Given your 77 acres has good habitat and browse, combined with a year-round feeding regime, I would say a buck a year is spot on.

Here is the one I got this year. It is my largest 8 point to date and I'm happy with it on a low fenced small property.

Outstanding deer for sure!

In many cases, the small tract hunter who provides deer with refuge from heavily hunted adjacent tracts can end up with a nice little honey hole.

It is a fact HF can and does work both ways. Keeps deer out as well as in. Plus makes one have to manage. manage, manage. A lot of folks have learned that the hard way.

Livestock arguments aside (they didn't care about that as evidenced by the fact that they fenced),I know that a lot of folks wish they had never put up the fences.

And if a person didn't for an example think they needed a fancy $50,000 truck they could have paid for 25,000 ft of HF.

....some people just can't appreciate humor.....

Uh Skinner, I was agreeing with you. I laughed out loud when I read your post. It said exactly what I thought. I guess I wasn't clear in my statement.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Truth!

I know that this does not really deal with the original subject. But I have been hearing that hunting a HF is like shooting Livestock. I have a WT livestock Buck that has I believe 13 points over 1" long. He is in about 350 acres under a HF. I will make a deal with those who think hunting a HF is like shooting fish in a barrel. I would charge $2600 for that Deer. I will let you into that pasture at daylight and pick you up at dark. You will be on foot. You give me $2600 when I let you in to the pasture. If you get that Buck I will give you the $2600 back. You either get a free Buck or I get $2600.

My bad. I guess I read you the wrong way. I also apologize for the misunderstanding.

Damn that sounds like a pretty good challenge. Hope Mrs. B. isn't watching this thread.

For years I hunted a 50 acre tract. THICK cover, native browse and fed year round and kept the only tank in the neighborhood full of water, which was a big thing in that neck of the woods especially in the Summer. Most people would be surprised how many deer lived on that property. Yes, a chit load of deer (20-30) actually lived on 50 acres. It was a bedding and feeding area. I know, spent a lot of time hunting it day and night. I passed 98% of the deer I saw. One neighbor had a large spread (several hundred acres), but they set up several blinds and feeders on the fence line. They shot every damn deer that jumped the fence. I would glass a 1 1/2 yr old 4 pt or 6 pt, he'd jump the fence and boom every time. It pissed me off for several years, then I got over it when I realized that what they were doing actually benefited the property I was hunting on. After a few fence line shots most of them quit jumping the fence to the neighbors property. They would stay on that 50 acres during the day. There were a few neighbor kids that got their first deer when it jumped that fence. Good for them. Life is too short to stroke out over "your" deer jumping the fence. Let them go where they want and let it be.

I have to pass on that deer, $2600 is too rich for my blood. Not sure how i could explain to my kids how part of their college fund is hanging on the wall.

P.S. AMEN SKINNER

klp, if you go back and read don k's post, if that deer is on your wall you won't be short any money. Only of it aint.

One whole day! Gosh.

I could make that bet with even bigger bucks I have TC pics of (and one or two having even been seen) and give you all season. Of course, I can't guarantee you those bucks are on a particular 350 acres. Or even on my place at any given time. Or even guarantee they haven't been shot by a neighboring hunter. But then, that's kind of the difference, isn't it?

What makes them livestock is that they ain't going outside the fence. So you know they are there. Not whether they are tame or not.

I worked for a scientific breeder for a few years through college and he high fenced his 350 acres and there were 13 native deer in there he wanted to eradicate. My job come fall was to eradicate everyone I could off of my license. The place was thick and very rugged terrain. I hunted for 7 days from dawn to dusk and never saw a deer. The closest I got was one snorting at me in the brush when I was spot and stalking. If I had the extra $2,600 right now I would take you up on it, not to prove you wrong, because I think you are absolutely right, but to see if my hunting skills had improved any over the last 20 years.

decook, i would rather not risk my money (or my kids money i guess)

Same here.

NP, So what makes them livestock is that they are confined to a certain area in your way of thinking. Aren't you and 99% of Deer hunters doing the same thing by planting food plots, protein feeding and throwing out all the corn they can eat? Isn't that in a way confining them to a given area. And I already know you will have an opposing answer to this so it won't be a surprise to me to hear it.

No, it's not. It's a way to (hopefully) attract them. But it does not confine them. Unless you want to make up your own definition of the word "confine" (which you are apparently doing).

"confine" def. - to enclose within bounds; limit or restrict.

The point is simple: you know that buck is there and will be there. Folks who hunt free-range animals don't.

These responses are common, but all beg the question: why did you spend the money on the HF if corn and food plots accomplish the same purpose?
Answer: (Well, you know the answer.)

"HF neighbor is now shooting livestock."



Now this Comical

Yes I do. It is because I raise Ibex. And if you think feeding deer does not in a loose way confine them then you are seriously mistaken.

We have had some pretty wet growing seasons the past couple years and deer have all but ignored corn. This year we had a rather dry growing season, missed out on most of the rain. Range is dry, all surface water has been gone for 6 months. Ratling a corn bucked brings them in on a leash.

Oh, OK. I guess those folks who raise only whitetails are the ones throwing their $$$ away on the fences. Lots of stupid folks I reckon.

You are grasping at straws now NP. Deer on feed are like people who get addicted to living off the gov. tit. Once they are on it you got them for life.

My best friend Mike in Houston hunts a lot a high fence he gets lots good dear when he comes to my house and sees my trophy wall and points to this one or that one and says man I paid two and $3000 for deer that are smaller than those it sure makes me feel good . I just like to get in the woods Blend in and hunt that's what's fun for me

Very good question there.

I have bucks on my property who have never come to a feeder. And never will. Rarely to a food plot (almost always at night). Cameras don't lie. In fact, that applies to the vast majority of them once they reach 4 1/2. (I would say all, but I did have some come to feeders during the bad drought of 2010-2011. They were as jumpy as cats in a roomful of rocking chairs, but they came because they were just that hungry.)

Like I said, if corn and food plots confined them as you claim, there would be no need for the fences. You can argue, cuss, discuss, and build all the straw men you want, but that's simply the fact.

Don K, I am on a new lease this year, put up feeders and had deer slamming them dawn and dusk with sometimes 14 deer there at a time, every day. Thought, this season is gonna be great, lots of animals and will be able to pick my poison with gun or bow...

A 70 acre wheat field was planted, as was expected when I got the lease. More attractant for the deer right.

How come last weekend I hunted Friday eve to sunday am and didn't see hardly any deer come to my feeders or wheat field and what little we did see came in mostly at night and not when the feeders went off? I know this because I have a thermal handheld I use while hunting, makes it cheating right, but makes it dang easier to see nearly everything out there.

Point being, I have feeders spitting corn and roasted soy, I have a huge green wheat field and the deer are barely hitting it right now. By your statement they should be lined up waiting to be shot...

I think that corn feeder may be only for doe most of the hunters that I know shoot the first buck that gets near one. Then is when they ask me why they don't see any big bucks?

You are absolutely right the feeders and the food plots just get the deer interested in your spot most your big bucks skirt the plots and feeders in years I've killed many a trophy Buck but never one In food plot or under feeder. I like to see lots doe at feeder.

It is a funny conversation to have when you bring up to someone who says shooting bucks around feeders eventually leads to no bucks at feeders....

Think of it this way, a dead buck can not pass on any behavior or genetics to the other bucks around. Once it is dead, it is dead. Now, if you are shooting a buck that comes in by itself, that should not limit or impact any other deer coming to that feeder ever. If you shoot a buck that comes in with other deer, you may scare deer away from that feeder, but they don't know what happened, they don't know what caused their friend to die, they just know a loud noise happened one time out of how many, and that likely won't impact any future behavior at all.

So what causes big bucks to stay away from feeders or only go in at night? Quite simply it is a behavior they have used to stay alive, and that is called survival instincts. Most big deer, whether doe or buck, are skittish, very standoffish, and don't like being in the open and spook at the slightest of noises, smells, or anything that they "feel" is out of the ordinary. its how they got to be old. Behaviors that promote survival will more likely lead to survival. Makes sense right?

So the argument that people shoot bucks at feeders will lead to no bucks coming to feeders is invalid, unless you shoot the only bucks in the area that could come to a feeder. But that goes for doe too. Doe don't stop coming to feeders unless you kill them all. Then they stop.

And I agree with you, typically big bucks and big doe won't go in feeder pens unless they were raised going into feeder pens (the pens have been up for a long time on a well established lease). I have doe that just don't want to get in my pen while their fawns jump right in and eat away. This is the first year I am on this lease so I expect that. It is simply survival instinct.

I have some decent bucks right now hitting a certain feeder at night. I am hoping when it gets colder they come out closer to dawn/dusk, but not a guarantee. They are older bucks, certainly not young ones. They may be used to going into feed pens as younger bucks and doing so at night, which is why they would be alive now. Don't know. But I hope to catch one either going to or from the feeder are or field, because whether I shoot it in the field or feeder area I know that these deer are coming to the area for food, and that's all that matters. Whether in the acorns or the wheat, or corn feeders or whatever they eat, we almost all hunt over some sort of food source, trail to food source, or water source and that produces deer for most of us. Again, behaviors that work for us tend to be reproduced by us.

Man, this thread sure got derailed.