Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting

Here is a great video and explanation on expansion of lead bullets, specifically the Berger EOL and VLD-Hunting bullets. The part in the video most important to me is from 1:20 to 1:34. I see this happen most often with the Barnes solid copper bullets. After many years of loading solid copper bullets and many customers disappointed in their performance on game, many are going back to lead bullets, like the Berger hunting bullets or traditional lead bullets. The new EOL line of bullets from Berger so far has been a huge success with many hunters I load for. Game simply doesn't go far, and often drop in their tracks.



[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLm95MX_oUzG_VxVqXVHEUMb5DbZXPTjm6&v=_8j-7D-bubQ[/video]

I agree, never been happy with the on game performance I have gotten with monometal bullets. I do prefer a combo of expansion and retention though, big fan of bonded core or partitioned bullets.

Yes, I also really like the bonded bullets. The Accubonds and Hornady Interbonds have done well, also.

I like Barnes in small bullets w/hot calibers(22-250,243,257wby, etc). 223 or 308 types not so much.

I shoot a lot of VLD's...hot and VLD bad things happen.

For moderate velocities I'm really liking the ABLR over the VLD, via on game performance

I will say I have never shot mono metal out of something like a 22-250 or a 257 wby, I think they would be much better.

+1 on the bonded bullets. I've tried the mono-metals and after losing two deer to complete pass-through shots at >200 yards I've gone to AB's and ABLR for just about everything I have. I will admit that I haven't tried the Bergers much. The one deer I shot with a Berger I lost one shoulder to the damage done by the bullet's expansion.

All depends on the application.

Plain old cup and core bullets are hard to beat for deer sized game. (I have used them on deer for over 40 years and used them on my desert sheep hunt with absolute confidence.) Monometals have always worked well for me on larger animals. Many African PHs swear by them for their clients and some even require them for big plains game. I killed a Stone's sheep with a TSX and will have them in my rifle on an upcoming Dall sheep hunt, but only because grizzly was and is on the menu. But a great compromise is the Nosler AB or tried and true Partition. (Caveat: I am not an ultra LR hunter.)

The Internet will give all sorts of opinions on every bullet out there. The LR community has a love affair with Bergers, but you can probably find as many or more horror stories on them as for any other bullet.

See it all the time, but "dropping in their tracks" or "DRT" is just anecdotal talk when discussing bullet (or caliber) performance. An animal's reaction to the shot has way more to do with placement than any other factor. For example, the most reliable "DRT" shot on deer-sized game is the high shoulder shot. A sufficiently heavy lead bullet traveling fast enough will work well for that shot. OTOH, a ponderously heavy slow-moving lead bullet is not ideal for that shot, nor is a speedy small lead bullet. In smaller calibers a more stout bullet will almost always work better.

I have seen elk "DRT" hit with all different combinations of calibers and bullets. And go a little piece and die in short order with all different combinations.The only elk I saw escape was one shot with a 180 grain lead bullet from a .30-06 that hit the shoulder blade. Either a .300 using that bullet or the .30-06 using an AB, NP, or TSX would have probably filled the larder.

The important factors for bullet performance are achieving sufficient penetration and expansion. If those are met, the animal will die in short order with proper placement. Those factors should always be weighted considering game sought and caliber used.

There's no "one size fits all" answer when it comes to bullet discussion. All factors (caliber, weight, game sought, expected distances, etc.) must be known before even beginning the discussion.

Yes, when you get the speeds up North of 3000 fps in the solids, it does help to increase the hydrostatic shock, but still not as much as a lead bullet would. But the bullet does hold together better. The only issue I have seen with the Barnes solids is a large increase in copper fouling which decreases the accuracy in very few rounds. I have seen accuracy fall off in as little as 15 rounds on some fast magnums with speeds 3200+ fps. After we cleaned it, accuracy came back and 15-20 rounds later accuracy was gone again.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said. My position as well.

"15-20 rounds" (before needing to clean) would equate to 5-7 hunting seasons for a lot of folks. Cleaning your rifles bore seems a small price to pay IF the bullet suits your needs in other areas.

I use both types of bullets and have had good success with each. 'Application' is the key.

I like Berger bullets...but I don't have extensive experience with them. Hard to watch a commercial claiming they are THE bullet anywhere from 50 yds. on out to infinity.

Sheeeshhh....the only thing not claimed....was that they give you better gas mileage too.

OK just watched the video. It's a commercial is all. "Their bullet is the only one that will penetrate 3-5" and then fragment", "competitors' bullets ALL are designed to pass through without expanding", etc., etc....

Bunch of untruths and oversimplifications. Nothing of real value in it at all.

I am a TTSX convert. I typically used to shoot the Coreloks and occasionally SSTs and Nosler partitions, depending on the caliber. I am patient and wait for shots of 100 yards or less and I go for the upper neck. Been lucky I guess and always had DRT results. I am not into tracking, especially if it's a late afternoon shot. On those occasions where it was over 100, I went for a more-heart-than-lung shot that also made sure I hit at least one shoulder to minimize running. Over 200 yards I held off and it was the deer's lucky day. (Hog or coyote, of course I'll take a long shot!)

The TTSXs are very accurate in my rifles and have done the job every time. I am getting older so I have settled on shots to the lower neck---more area and less chance of a miss if the deer starts to move right when I squeeze off. The good thing is that the TTSX do a lot less meat damage than lead bullets, especially the SSTs. So for my purposes and circumstances, I prefer the copper. Now I need to save my pennies to get a Cooper to shoot the copper.

I guess we all want something different. A tsx would be my absolute last choice for a neck shooting bullet, shooting in the neck I want something that is going to disrupt... after all you shoot them in the neck because there isn't much meat there.

Good stuff. I love the vlds

Yeah, I really like lead bullets... real lead bullets! Cast my own bullet for everything that I shoot, 28 different cartridges in 43 different firearms.

I'd like to try some at some point.

I mistakenly switched from Hornady's 140g BTSP to the 140g SST in my .270 Win. While the SST's are accurate and consistent, their terminal performance at short distance (under 200 yards) has been poor. In each instance the SST killed the animal and it was recovered, but there were no, or very small exit wounds, and very little blood spillage.

Conversely, the BTSP would open up, leave gaping exit wounds and spill lots of blood, and do it at all distances, near and far.

If I don't find something else that I like, I'll be going back with the BTSP.

I liked the commercial.

I've never shot the VLD so I have no opinion. For deer sized animals anything will work. Any modern bullet will do a fine job.

I do like the 45 grain TSX in my 22-250 over 37.5 of RL-15. Everything I've shot with it has gone down like it was hit by lightning. I did have one come apart on a spike opening weekend. He was neck shot at 150yds and the spine was blown in half with a thumb sized hole and exited. He never knew what hit him. However a small peice ran down the spine and stopped 8" down the backstrap. It cost me some meat.
I think the TSX is great as long as it's a light bullet going plenty fast. For everything else lead is king.

Ok I am a bit of a bullet nerd so I will give my 2 cents on this.

First off I had to laugh at that commercial! I understand the concept behind the bullet fragmenting magically once it senses the vitals of an animal therefore dumping all its energy inside the animal. I have always said that the more energy you dump in an animal the better but I want an exit also. Blood trails are easier to follow when they bleed from 2 holes instead of 1. On the other hand that fragmentation completely goes against everything I have ever wanted in a medium to large game bullet which is weight retention along with controlled expansion. Save the fragmenting bullets for varmints and tactical situations and give me a bonded bullet any day of the week!

Next up is the mono metals like the TSX. I have a real hatred for them when it comes to deer and pigs. Had a couple of very bad experiences with them on pigs and all the TSX fan boys decided I must be doing something wrong because there was no way their beloved TSX could fail in any way shape or form. I was told I must not have put the shot in the right spot......I posted pics of shot placement on one pig that came back to life after being hit by a TSX and even with indisputable proof of great shot placement I was still told I didn't hit him in the right spot . I was also told I have to "run them fast and light for caliber". Well maybe they should put that on their box as some sort of warning label or just not sell them at all. And here is some more earth shattering news for the "fast and light" crowd.......after a few hundred yards that bullet might not be going fast enough anymore to meet the apparent required criteria for proper on game performance. I chose to use a bullet that doesn't box me in on what I can and cant do with a certain bullet......that's why I don't like the TSX and will never understand those that choose them for thin to medium skin animal. Now as far as tougher animals are concerned.......the TSX has its place. More and more people are starting to realize that place aint in the deer stand though.

The VLD(s) is something I admit I haven't used yet. I know a few that swore by them at first and quickly they started to back away from them. I have trailed a few animals shot with VLD's as well and it wasn't pretty. If the VLD is designed to come apart as that commercial suggest then I doubt I will ever be caught dead with them.

I love Berger Bullets, they shoot great out of my .243 and I haven't lost a deer.

I really tried with the TTSX bullets out of my .243 but I could not get them to group well. Granted, it was my first time handloading, but after burning 2 50 round boxes and not getting a 1 inch group at 100 yards I bought a box of Berger 95 gr classic hunters. 20 rounds later my rifle was shooting 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.

I haven't shot an animal with copper bullets. My biggest gripe is the price, who can afford to practice with copper rounds???

I'm not a fan of copper bullets in standard calibers and even standard weight bullets in magnum calibers.

I prefer bonded or copper. Deer are not difficult to kill and I definitely am not opposed to cup and core bullets for them.

I shot about a dozen animals this year with Etips and don't have a single complaint. The animals included blackbuck, nilgai, whitetail, and plains game. Nothing went far and none were difficult to find. The bonded/copper bullets often don't give you the dramatic kills but they are very reliable. I usually get an exit and a decent blood trail. On smaller animals, it helps to hit a shoulder.

I love that video, but not because I believe it, which I don't. I have hunted with Berger VLD-Hunting and will do so again. The bullets do not expand as claimed int he OP as much as they violently come apart into a million pieces. In the 6.5 Grendel around 2400-2500 fps, they do not cause the purported hydrostatic shock to stop animals. Some animals do run and when they do, some apparently do run far. The VLD-Hunting is extremely damaging to a LOT of soft tissue. In my estimation, this is a fine eradication hunting round, but a terrible meat hunting round.

In general, what I have found is that they produce horrific wound channels, sometimes multiple channels. They penetrate very deeply and usually overpenetrate. They come apart violently in hogs, opening immediately upon impact, just under the skin, and not several inches inside the body.





I am pretty sure they give you better gas mileage as well.

The claim that the Berger VLD-Hunting produces a hydrostatic shock is rather interesting. I noticed that no actual hydrostatic shock evidence was provided, maybe because definitions for such are all over the board and few people have a clue as to what actually would constitute actual hydrostatic shock evidence, nor can they separate it from simple injury-induced shock evidence. Bottom line, don't count on hydrostatic shock to stop an animal. If it happens, great, but it is not something that can be said to reliably happen.

Awesome video and great shooting!

Do you have any other vids testing bullets?

the barnes that i tried never flew straight
enough to think of using them on game, and
the funds that i allotted for experimenting
ran out so i never bought anymore. i can do
better with an arrow or a shotgun and buck

I like copper due to the lack of massive damage I have seen with other bullets. I might shoot a blackbuck doe one week and shoot a cow elk in the mountains the next week. BB doe died quick, after a bad shot and I didn't lose half the meat like I would have with other bullets. Some WT deer, with other bullets like the SST, I lose both shoulders. Really ruins the hunt for me when I'm throwing two shoulders away.

Haven't hunted in almost 20 yrs. due to health problems, but never had a problem with full penetration and minimal meat damage using Sierra Pro Hunter spt 150 gr in a 30-06. Used 46.5gr. IMR 4062, only on whitetail.

This discussion is interesting - good opinions and some valid points throughout .

I'm surprised the subject of specialty rounds hasn't been brought up.

Wouldn't this really be the optimal solution for those who want penetration and expansion , I'm specially talking about those projectiles that the front half separates from the base.

Seems like neck shooters who want to save meat and eradication teams that want to inflict mass trauma would all be served dependent on shot placement.

Oh yeah and if you want to practice find a cheap plinking projectile and tune your charge rate to match the pricey bullets point of impact - also if shooting a semi load the top two rounds with pricey stuff and plinking rounds for the low percentage running shots .

As long as Accubond's and partitions are accurate in my hunting rifles, which they definitely are, I have zero need for anything else.

I've seen a lot of game shot with 150 grain Barnes bullets from 7mms and .300 mags


From my experience, unless you hit a shoulder bone, it's straight in and out.


If I'm shooting a deer for meat, it's neck or head, and it really don't matter at that point.

If it's a trophy, I want the bullet to cause massive internal damage and in my experience a Barnes bullet in the 3000 fps range doesent cause it

That's true. But the TSX does more internal damage than meets the eye (see ballistic gel tests). Have shot one ram and one buck with them (buck was simply because using same rifle later in same year). Ram went 10 yards and collapsed and deer went maybe 40 yards with a great blood trail. That said, I do not prefer them for deer-sized game and won't use them again for deer unless the caliber is small. Even then, I would probably go with an AB or NP or something similar. Monometals are designed to achieve penetration - every time. So their real sweet spot is really for larger, tougher animals.

Chad, what's your take on the new ELDX? I shot a bobcat and a yote this weekend and it ripped them open, massive damage. This was the 178gr 30-06 version. Curious as to what results to expect on a deer or pig?

Can't speak for the 30 cal, but I was present when my Brother shot a Buck and a Hog with his 6.5 Creedmoor (143 gr. ELDX).

Both animals ran about 40 yards and expired. Internal organs damaged to about the degree I have seen with other bullets.

Give me a Federal Fusion.

The adverting hype behind bullets beats anything that candidates can put out in an election.
There are more acronyms for bullets than I have time to mention. Just get an old soft-point or a hollow-point and put it where it counts. The deer will die.
I think the hunting community has become obsessed with the latest-greatest craze.

shoot deer at 100 yds with 308 and sp bullet nice exit good blood dead deer, now comes deer hunter with 300 mag same deer 100 yds and problems occur, no exit bullet comes apart dead deer but hunter want exit wound, buys bonded bullets shoots deer nice exit recovers deer, hes right back where we started with 308 and sp bullets. my advice use cartridge with sp bullets at ranges cartridges were designed for.

Yep pretty much.

I've been killing deer with cup and core bullets for 20 years only shot a few with "premium" bullets.

Never lost one with interlocks or core-lokts

Berger works well if you want copper. I like the high ballistic c. I found accubonds to be close enough. I shot many many animals to prove. I always got good penetration and good retention vs expansion. My favorite example is this hog shot at 930 y. He never took a step. Bullet still made it through him. There was a huge pool of blood where he fell. Honestly is was a marginal shot. Hit him maybe at the tail end of his lungs. Definitely liver.

Hog is a tad under 300lb. Exit hole was about an inch in dia. I think that's sufficient on such a thick skinned heavy animal.

Another great thing about accubonds is it's much easier to clean my barrel. Dang vlds required copper solvent soak. My barrel showed a huge decline in long range accuracy after a dozen shots or so

The Berger 130gr VLD's have done me well in the .264


Can't base a bullet off of 2 animals killed 10 years apart


Most modern ammunition performs well if you know how to place it.
I like the Bergers and the Swift Scirocco II, they both feed well and perform well.

How'd you do that?

And this is the reason I shoot Nosler Partitions, while it's not the best of both worlds it does give me the ability to take either a heart lung or a shoulder shot with confidence.

Chevy: I had thought about that also. I tried the Barnes TTSX initially with my 270 and was 2 for 2 on deer that season, both DRT with neck shots. The next year I batted 1000 with my 7mm 08. My buddy also dropped a Utah elk with one shot at 200 yards with 165 grain TTSX with my 300 wsm. Chad did some custom reloads using 120 grain TTSX for my 6.5x284 and I dropped 2 bucks last year with lower neck shots. All my rifles shoot consistently and accurately with the Barnes bullets. That's critical because on a neck shot I have to be sure to hit the vertebrae. Maybe my results aren't typical, but so far so good and it makes sense to stick with what works (for me anyway).

Best hunting bullet ever made IMO.

I shot nothing but Barnes X from 95 to 09 out my 270 and 300. I was a big believer in what goes in must come out. Starting in 2010 I started back where I started shooting my 243 with 100gr. Partitions. I never lost a deer with the Barnes, but dang few dropped in their tracks. With the 243 they tend to drop where they stand. Lot smaller bullet with a lot less energy, but the greater transfer of energy makes a difference.

Can't go wrong with either AB or NP......

I like messing with bullets and that just looks plain mean!

took a 200 lb hog this morning with my new creedmoor, 129 gr hornady btsp( interlock ) well the creed met its match, i failed to get a pass through, but in fairness im testing this gun to see what it can do, put it right on the shoulder, it made it through the boars shield, through shoulder bone, broke through ribs on both sides, out shoulder meat on other side and ended up on skin under shield on opposite side. bullet weighed 108 gr or a 17% percent loss and had an expanded diameter of .68 at widest part and .55 at narrowest.

I wouldn't chalk 83% weight retention on shoulder shots as an kind of normalcy for a btsp interlock. That bullet was a one in a million kinda dude.

dont be hatin rechevy. lol hey maybe it is at the right velocities, the creed aint no screamer you know

Still have a couple hundred rounds of 130 grain Hornady interlock with 54 grains of Dupont 4350. Best grouping round I have ever used

Is there any truth to the idea that lead bullets cause lead poisoning? I've eaten a deer steak before and chomped on pieces of bullet.