Texas Hunting Forum
HF or LF ?
Posted By: don k
HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 06:46 PM
He jumped in with the Ibex. The fence is behind him that he jumped. So is it considered LF?
Posted By: Bbcat78
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 07:06 PM
looks like hf to me as well as some good eating
Posted By: Creekrunner
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 07:08 PM
You just have to stir it, don't you?
Posted By: stxranchman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 07:20 PM
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 07:25 PM
Fix the fence
Posted By: 1860.colt
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 08:30 PM
He jumped in with the Ibex. The fence is behind him that he jumped.
So is it considered LF? A
loop-hole in the fence
whats the land owner say? Edit:
as pappy says:
thats a LHF
Posted By: maceman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 08:42 PM
I prefer NO fence!!!
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 09:01 PM
High fences are the work of the devil!
Doesn't matter
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 10:45 PM
I am sorry. I could not help myself. It has been too quiet about the fences lately.
Posted By: artrios60
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 11:40 PM
Are we really gonna go there again
My horse is tired of getting beat
Posted By: Western
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/05/15 11:44 PM
At least it's a tame HF animal, just run it through a gate......
Posted By: doogie
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 04:50 AM
That quote above can not be a real john Wayne quote because it has a grammatical error in it....because john Wayne spoke perfect Texan English
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 11:44 AM
So according to John Wayne if you shoot the Axis before he jumps in that would have been alright. But if you shoot him after he jumps in it wouldn't? Makes perfect sense????????
Posted By: stxranchman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 11:53 AM
Posted By: Elkhunter49
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 01:14 PM
Good looking buck Don.
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 03:42 PM
He has probably jumped back out. So now John Wayne could shoot him and sleep well tonight?
Posted By: 1860.colt
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 06:13 PM
Posted By: MarkE
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 06:47 PM
So according to John Wayne if you shoot the Axis before he jumps in that would have been alright. But if you shoot him after he jumps in it wouldn't? Makes perfect sense????????
Perfect example of misinterpretation. "CONTEXT" look it up.
Posted By: doogie
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/06/15 08:05 PM
That is a quote from a book by John Wayne's wife of 25 years, Pilar,
(John Wayne: My Life With The Duke. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1987 p. vii).
I am in no way saying I would not shoot the axis above. I would in fact shoot it with out a second thought.
Posted By: dogcatcher
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 04:54 AM
Who cares???
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 12:51 PM
They aren't game animals so El Duke would have to go to India to feel anything about them.
Ol' Duke is on the chit list with TR now. Communist!!
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 02:12 PM
Shoot whatever I want, where I want to
Posted By: EddieWalker
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 02:19 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 02:30 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
That's what a gates for
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 02:56 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
74". I see them jump in and out. They jump better than WT.
Posted By: Curtis
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 03:00 PM
Only thing I see is dinner.
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/07/15 03:06 PM
Only thing I see is dinner.
Would it matter if it was a wild pig...HF or LF? I don't see the issue...but I hunt meat not horns anyway...
Posted By: 1860.colt
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/08/15 02:45 PM
Got on
HF as a
lowfer on 3-16-12 ta see if any one wanted ta get tagether for a hog hunt on a WMA... Think first post was in muzzleloader section... Have seen the many debates on this form... Every one has opinions... Best wishes ta all this up coming Hunting Season... Its already started for some... Still say its a
HLF .. jumped High fence inta Low Fence... Again its upta land owner ta make the call.. i got cheap posts...
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 06:39 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
74". I see them jump in and out. They jump better than WT.
take some video please, at whatever cost necessary. I cant find video anywhere of a deer jumping a HF even though so many of you say it happens...
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 06:44 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
74". I see them jump in and out. They jump better than WT.
take some video please, at whatever cost necessary. I cant find video anywhere of a deer jumping a HF even though so many of you say it happens...
That's barely over 6'...jackrabbits are going to clear that.
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 06:49 PM
well, I meant the REALLY HF's that guys claim is childs play for deer to jump, 6ft would be a good place to start if Don can make it happen, but yeah, I'd really like to see those 8ft fences jumped
and I'm not saying you guys are wrong, or that you are lying, just saying that I don't believe you.
The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 07:24 PM
The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
I have hunted so called LF purest like you and most talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 07:29 PM
well, I meant the REALLY HF's that guys claim is childs play for deer to jump, 6ft would be a good place to start if Don can make it happen, but yeah, I'd really like to see those 8ft fences jumped
and I'm not saying you guys are wrong, or that you are lying, just saying that I don't believe you.
So how did I get him in there and how did he get back out? Houdini? Got a ladder and climbed out? Dug a tunnel and got out then filled it back in? Yea, I got all the time in the world to sit next to a fence and wait for a deer to jump it so I can film it.
The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
I have hunted so called LF purest like you and most talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Purist or not, anyone who argues the fence might as well not be there on a pretty thin reed. The fence is there for a reason.
Posted By: kdkane1971
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 07:43 PM
The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
I have hunted so called LF purest like you and most talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Purist or not, anyone who argues the fence might as well not be there on a pretty thin reed. The fence is there for a reason.
Yelp your right it's the best option for a deterrent, unfortunately all the LF exotics in Texas show the lack of effectiveness at times
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 07:50 PM
well, I meant the REALLY HF's that guys claim is childs play for deer to jump, 6ft would be a good place to start if Don can make it happen, but yeah, I'd really like to see those 8ft fences jumped
and I'm not saying you guys are wrong, or that you are lying, just saying that I don't believe you.
So how did I get him in there and how did he get back out? Houdini? Got a ladder and climbed out? Dug a tunnel and got out then filled it back in? Yea, I got all the time in the world to sit next to a fence and wait for a deer to jump it so I can film it.
sounds good, i'll check the thread later tonight after I go have some dinner and probably do a little fishing.
The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
I have hunted so called LF purest like you and most talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Purist or not, anyone who argues the fence might as well not be there on a pretty thin reed. The fence is there for a reason.
Yelp your right it's the best option for a deterrent, unfortunately all the LF exotics in Texas show the lack of effectiveness at times
That's true. I'm not a huge fan of exotics either, but that's another thread I guess. There is no denying that some species have literally been saved from extinction thanks to exotic ranching. Not the more common ones, but some.
I would like to go on a New Mexico ibex hunt one day.
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
74". I see them jump in and out. They jump better than WT.
take some video please, at whatever cost necessary. I cant find video anywhere of a deer jumping a HF even though so many of you say it happens...
Can you get your phone out of your pocket quick enough to video a deer jumping a fence? If you can, please go become a world champion quick draw champion... THF needs a champion among champions
I use exotics because most cant tell the difference in a low fence native from high fence native or non native whitetail
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 07:56 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
74". I see them jump in and out. They jump better than WT.
take some video please, at whatever cost necessary. I cant find video anywhere of a deer jumping a HF even though so many of you say it happens...
Can you get your phone out of your pocket quick enough to video a deer jumping a fence? If you can, please go become a world champion quick draw champion... THF needs a champion among champions
there is a HF bashing deer herding joke in there but I wont mess with it...
I just want to see a deer jump a HF!
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 07:57 PM
I use exotics because most cant tell the difference in a low fence native from high fence native or non native whitetail
I thought you could just look at the antlers, no??
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 08:04 PM
The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
I have hunted so called LF purest like you and most talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Purist or not, anyone who argues the fence might as well not be there on a pretty thin reed. The fence is there for a reason.
Yelp your right it's the best option for a deterrent, unfortunately all the LF exotics in Texas show the lack of effectiveness at times
Was there ever a fence height requirement to bring in exotics?
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 08:05 PM
I use exotics because most cant tell the difference in a low fence native from high fence native or non native whitetail
I thought you could just look at the antlers, no??
Which deer is Big.......
rest my case.
Posted By: Western
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 08:11 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
74". I see them jump in and out. They jump better than WT.
take some video please, at whatever cost necessary. I cant find video anywhere of a deer jumping a HF even though so many of you say it happens...
I have also heard it happens, but never seen it, on a true 8' fence. I have seen a few stuck to the fence like fly paper though..
Posted By: redchevy
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 08:45 PM
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 09:11 PM
[quote=Nogalus Prairie][quote=don k][quote=Nogalus Prairie]The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
I have hunted so called LF purest like you and most talk out of both sides of their mouths.
That's true. I'm not a huge fan of exotics either, but that's another thread I guess. There is no denying that some species have literally been saved from extinction thanks to exotic ranching. Not the more common ones, but some.
I would like to go on a New Mexico ibex hunt one day.
And you will probably hire a guide. And that is OK in your purest world?
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 09:25 PM
How tall is that fence? Does he come and go when he wants to?
74". I see them jump in and out. They jump better than WT.
take some video please, at whatever cost necessary. I cant find video anywhere of a deer jumping a HF even though so many of you say it happens...
I have also heard it happens, but never seen it, on a true 8' fence. I have seen a few stuck to the fence like fly paper though..
I watched them hit an 8'er like woodpeckers trying to get away from the truck. Entertaining until one center punches a post.
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 09:32 PM
Ole Mutt and Jeff back for more arent they
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/09/15 09:33 PM
[quote=Nogalus Prairie][quote=don k][quote=Nogalus Prairie]The "they will jump the fence anyway so it's not really different" is the stupidest argument the HF guys make. Talk about grasping at straws.....
I have hunted so called LF purest like you and most talk out of both sides of their mouths.
That's true. I'm not a huge fan of exotics either, but that's another thread I guess. There is no denying that some species have literally been saved from extinction thanks to exotic ranching. Not the more common ones, but some.
I would like to go on a New Mexico ibex hunt one day.
And you will probably hire a guide. And that is OK in your purest world?
Is that bad
Posted By: therancher
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 12:47 AM
People who haven't seen deer jump 8' fences just haven't been around deer and 8' fences enough. I watched a native hill country midget buck jump an 8' fence just 2 weeks ago. Now, he didn't clear it, he actually went through between the top of net and the barbed wire. Broke the wire. But he landed clean and ran off on the other side.
I've seen it happen several times.
Posted By: fouzman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 01:29 AM
Never seen a WT jump an 8' 'high fence' with two strand barbed wire on top. Though I have witnessed one severely tormented, testosterone-charged 3 yr old buck repelled not once, but twice by said fence. With a hot doe on the neighbor's place, xcross said fence.
The buck hit the fence about a foot below the top on his first try. The fence gave a few feet into the neighbor's place before launching that deer back from whence he came.
10-20 feet before he hit the ground in a pile, then scurried off.
His second attempt was a complete fail and unworthy of mention.
Never seen it, except in Mike Biggs photos. Doubt it happens often, but it DOES happen. Most likely involving predators or 'hormones'. Why else leave?
Posted By: therancher
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:06 AM
I too have seen the animal fail more than I've seen it succeed. But, in most instances of success that I've seen, the motivation was nothing more than an approaching vehicle.
Posted By: Palehorse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:15 AM
Posted By: Direct Hit
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:17 AM
You can earn that money and hunt HF but you didn't earn that animal.
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:35 AM
You can earn that money and hunt HF but you didn't earn that animal.
Oh but you earn that animal by sitting in a blind looking at a LF feeder then bushwacking a Deer that has come to eat the corn. Makes perfect sense.
Posted By: therancher
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:41 AM
You can earn that money and hunt HF but you didn't earn that animal.
Oh but you earn that animal by sitting in a blind looking at a LF feeder then bushwacking a Deer that has come to eat the corn. Makes perfect sense.
That'll leave a mark. Or three.
Posted By: texassippi
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:42 AM
well, I meant the REALLY HF's that guys claim is childs play for deer to jump, 6ft would be a good place to start if Don can make it happen, but yeah, I'd really like to see those 8ft fences jumped
and I'm not saying you guys are wrong, or that you are lying, just saying that I don't believe you.
So how did I get him in there and how did he get back out? Houdini? Got a ladder and climbed out? Dug a tunnel and got out then filled it back in? Yea, I got all the time in the world to sit next to a fence and wait for a deer to jump it so I can film it.
sounds good, i'll check the thread later tonight after I go have some dinner and probably do a little fishing.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:50 AM
A 6' fence is manageable for most whitetail. We have a cross fence on our place that is over 5' and deer clear it daily and with plenty to spare...
Not that this one had plenty to spare, but he made it
For reference to a mature deer
Posted By: Direct Hit
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 02:50 AM
Mark or three? Lol....
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 12:47 PM
You can earn that money and hunt HF but you didn't earn that animal.
and how dare they not earn their animal...in your eyes....how dare they I say!
Posted By: redchevy
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/10/15 01:43 PM
Currently hunt low fence, I have hunted hi fence and I don't have a problem with it.
It is a personal choice to me. I don't think you can explain it one way or the other that the fence doesn't make a difference, if it didn't people wouldn't spend the coin it costs to put them up. Honestly I believe, and this is just my opinion, that TYPICALLY HF places appear better because they are better managed and their management is contained inside the fence showing the difference between what poorly managed property is/could be. Not saying all LF is poorly managed either.
Posted By: Direct Hit
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 02:53 AM
HF hunting has been going down hill. It's just a matter of time now.
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 03:13 AM
HF hunting has been going down hill. It's just a matter of time now.
Ooookkkkkaaaay
HF hunting has been going down hill. It's just a matter of time now.
Posted By: Phantom
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 03:45 AM
I hunt both and I would tell you depending on the property they can both be a hunt. With a quality scope and optics sitting in a box looking at a feeder the only difference is management of the game. Figure hunting is like real estate. Location location location. Every year there are the jealous types that say they are not jealous just feel better about them selves because they don't hunt high fence. I personally dont care and hunt both yearly. I just have never had anyone turn me down when I ask them to come hunt with me on my high fence ranch. I have never had someone tell me they would only hunt the low fenced property. also get exotics on both never having purchased one. oh well. to each his own.
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 01:17 PM
I use exotics because most cant tell the difference in a low fence native from high fence native or non native whitetail
I thought you could just look at the antlers, no??
Which deer is Big.......
rest my case.
what I meant was that you can pretty much tell if a deer is from a HF if it has big antlers, right?
Posted By: tShawnB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 02:51 PM
I have hunted high fence twice, one large pasture (15K acres) one small pasture (less than 1K acres) for a total of 5 days and have 3 bucks over 160" to show for it including one that is stupid big. I have hunted low fence or no fence for 30+ years and have half a dozen bucks over 160" to show for it with one that is stupid big. The high fence hunts fell in my lap at discounted rates due to other peoples misfortune or I would have never gone. I don't ever plan on hunting high fence again.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 03:03 PM
I have hunted high fence twice, one large pasture (15K acres) one small pasture (less than 1K acres) for a total of 5 days and have 3 bucks over 160" to show for it including one that is stupid big. I have hunted low fence or no fence for 30+ years and have half a dozen bucks over 160" to show for it with one that is stupid big. The high fence hunts fell in my lap at discounted rates due to other peoples misfortune or I would have never gone. I don't ever plan on hunting high fence again.
But you did do it three times. So it would appear you must have enjoyed it the first two times or you would not have gone a 3rd time.
So I suspect (and hope) not doing it again is a personal preference and you have no issues with others hunting (or not hunting) high fence if they so choose.
Posted By: tShawnB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 03:43 PM
I have hunted high fence twice, one large pasture (15K acres) one small pasture (less than 1K acres) for a total of 5 days and have 3 bucks over 160" to show for it including one that is stupid big. I have hunted low fence or no fence for 30+ years and have half a dozen bucks over 160" to show for it with one that is stupid big. The high fence hunts fell in my lap at discounted rates due to other peoples misfortune or I would have never gone. I don't ever plan on hunting high fence again.
But you did do it three times. So it would appear you must have enjoyed it the first two times or you would not have gone a 3rd time.
So I suspect (and hope) not doing it again is a personal preference and you have no issues with others hunting (or not hunting) high fence if they so choose.
I am a Capitalist in the truest sense, so nope, I don't have an issue with anyone making a buck of another human being that desires their product. Just don't tell me what a tough hunt you had, because I know better.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 08:35 PM
tShawnB,
I was with you until you added " Just don't tell me what a tough hunt you had, because I know better."
When you typed that you made a generalized statement (at least that's how I took it...if you were comparing your specific circumstances on your deer hunts.... then it's not an opinion it's a statement of fact...YOUR HUNTS). I suspect some LF hunts are pretty easy and some HF hunts are even easier (let's be realistic). I would also say that some HF hunts could be more of a challenge than a LF hunt depending on the acreage, habitat and species. So with that in mind I always avoid the whole "challenge of LF vs HF"....there are too many variables.
Why I commented on your original post was because you've tried both HF and LF for deer.....decided that HF wasn't something you cared to continue...BUT you don't begrudge others if they want to hunt HF. I think that's the right attitude that we as hunters and Capitalists should take. I don't even mind the folks who say that they feel HF is not hunting and unethical....that's an opinion that they are entitled to. It's when someone post that they are against HF, critsizes it and then goes to say that it should be illegal, then I have a problem on multiple levels. It then becomes about imposing your values on others....just like the anti-hunters would like to impose their values on us hunters. So opinions are fine...imposing your values on others is usually not (I say usually because there are always exceptions).
BTW, I live in VA (surprise) and we have no HF or baiting but I have hunted HF in Texas for exotics and if you have ever hunted a 700 acre HF in West Texas full of hills, ravines, brush that in places is 10 feet high, and everything but the rocks have stickers... and there is only one mature Urial ram (not a herd) in there that was let loose 2 years ago.....I would tell you that it's a lot harder hunt than most free range whitetail hunts. BTW, I never killed the ram but did see him for all of 30 seconds.....but I have shot 4 free range whitetails (Iowa and South Dakota) that gross at 170" +/-....and those hunts were easier than the ram hunt (also a lot colder).
Posted By: TFF Caribou
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 09:10 PM
I don't think we've ever discussed this before...
If one says all HF hunts are easier than all LF hunts, that can certainly be fairly characterized an over-generalization.
If one says the vast majority of HF hunts are easier than the vast majority of LF hunts, that is not an over-generalization. That is simply a fact that only folks in total denial would dispute.
That's why using the examples of "easy" LF hunts to compare them to examples of "hard" HF hunts is not persuasive and is, in fact, disingenuous. Why? Because they are not the norm since they are extreme examples on the far end of the spectrum for each. On your HF ram hunt, you were hunting one particular animal. Not quite a fair basis for comparison to LF hunting in general - and certainly not the norm for most HF hunting.
And one thing that the HF always does is this: it keeps the animals within the confines of the fence. They are in those confines today. And they will remain there tomorrow, and the next day, and all season long. That certainty is never there without the HF. That's the game changer. And that is not a generalization. It's a fact.
The fence is there for a reason.
Good job on your tough hunt......after all that is what it is all about, how hard you can make it! That's why we use rifles, to ramp up the difficulty!
Posted By: stxranchman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 09:16 PM
The fence is there for a lot of reason. Not just one reason to emphasis a certain point. Have you been on every LF or HF ranch in Texas? If not then you can not speak for all of them. You can only speak for the one(s) you have been on. Offer proof of your statements then your statement will be valid.
If one says all HF hunts are easier than all LF hunts, that can certainly be fairly characterized an over-generalization.
If one says the vast majority of HF hunts are easier than the vast majority of LF hunts, that is not an over-generalization. That is simply a fact that only folks in total denial would dispute.
That's why using the examples of "easy" LF hunts to compare them to examples of "hard" HF hunts is not persuasive and is, in fact, disingenuous. Why? Because they are not the norm since they are extreme examples on the far end of the spectrum for each. On your HF ram hunt, you were hunting one particular animal. Not quite a fair basis for comparison to LF hunting in general - and certainly not the norm for most HF hunting.
And one thing that the HF always does is this: it keeps the animals within the confines of the fence. They are in those confines today. And they will remain there tomorrow, and the next day, and all season long. That certainty is never there without the HF. That's the game changer. And that is not a generalization. It's a fact.
The fence is there for a reason.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 09:25 PM
I don't think we've ever discussed this before...
mlfao
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 09:39 PM
Nogalus Prairie,
We can debate generalizations all day...that wasn't the main point I was trying to make but I can see how you could have gotten sidetracked. I used the extremes to make a point.....avoid generalizations. I was not being disingenuous.
Also you say "HF always does is this: it keeps the animals within the confines of the fence. They are in those confines today. And they will remain there tomorrow, and the next day, and all season long. That certainty is never there without the HF." You are correct....BUT I think you believe that this is always a bad thing....it my not be. I can give examples but that would just keep the thread going on a tangent discussion.
My point..the one I was trying to make....opinions are fine..we can all have one and all disagree with each other. That's even healthy at times. IT'S WHEN SOMEONE TRIES TO IMPOSE THEIR VALUES ON OTHERS THAT I HAVE AN ISSUE.
Posted By: Gravytrain
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 09:55 PM
I got a weird stance on HF. I would hunt it if it were mine, just take enough to eat or manage the herd.
And I'd let my family hunt it too, for free. I would not sell hunts. This is not a real issue because I will
never afford my own HF piece of land.
I would not buy an HF hunt, I'd much rather spend the same money on a lease and get nothing some years.
I don't care if others are buying or selling HF hunts, no skin off my back.
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 10:15 PM
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
The fence is there for a lot of reason. Not just one reason to emphasis a certain point. Have you been on every LF or HF ranch in Texas? If not then you can not speak for all of them. You can only speak for the one(s) you have been on. Offer proof of your statements then your statement will be valid.
If one says all HF hunts are easier than all LF hunts, that can certainly be fairly characterized an over-generalization.
If one says the vast majority of HF hunts are easier than the vast majority of LF hunts, that is not an over-generalization. That is simply a fact that only folks in total denial would dispute.
That's why using the examples of "easy" LF hunts to compare them to examples of "hard" HF hunts is not persuasive and is, in fact, disingenuous. Why? Because they are not the norm since they are extreme examples on the far end of the spectrum for each. On your HF ram hunt, you were hunting one particular animal. Not quite a fair basis for comparison to LF hunting in general - and certainly not the norm for most HF hunting.
And one thing that the HF always does is this: it keeps the animals within the confines of the fence. They are in those confines today. And they will remain there tomorrow, and the next day, and all season long. That certainty is never there without the HF. That's the game changer. And that is not a generalization. It's a fact.
The fence is there for a reason.
That's a silly and, of course, impossible standard to ask anyone to meet. I stand by what I said. The vast majority of HF hunts are easier/less challenging than the vast majority of LF free range hunts.
First, it's common sense. Because the animals in the HF are enclosed. Trapped.
Second, one glance at the websites of most HF places will confirm that. Big animals. Guaranteed. Off the menu. Short hunts.
C'mon, stx. Let's not play games. Anyone who has a passing acquaintance with HF "hunting" knows that is true.
The fence is there for a reason.
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/11/15 10:49 PM
The fence is there for a lot of reason. Not just one reason to emphasis a certain point. Have you been on every LF or HF ranch in Texas? If not then you can not speak for all of them. You can only speak for the one(s) you have been on. Offer proof of your statements then your statement will be valid.
If one says all HF hunts are easier than all LF hunts, that can certainly be fairly characterized an over-generalization.
If one says the vast majority of HF hunts are easier than the vast majority of LF hunts, that is not an over-generalization. That is simply a fact that only folks in total denial would dispute.
That's why using the examples of "easy" LF hunts to compare them to examples of "hard" HF hunts is not persuasive and is, in fact, disingenuous. Why? Because they are not the norm since they are extreme examples on the far end of the spectrum for each. On your HF ram hunt, you were hunting one particular animal. Not quite a fair basis for comparison to LF hunting in general - and certainly not the norm for most HF hunting.
And one thing that the HF always does is this: it keeps the animals within the confines of the fence. They are in those confines today. And they will remain there tomorrow, and the next day, and all season long. That certainty is never there without the HF. That's the game changer. And that is not a generalization. It's a fact.
The fence is there for a reason.
That's a silly and, of course, impossible standard to ask anyone to meet. I stand by what I said. The vast majority of HF hunts are easier/less challenging than the vast majority of LF free range hunts.
First, it's common sense. Because the animals in the HF are enclosed. Trapped.
Second, one glance at the websites of most HF places will confirm that. Big animals. Guaranteed. Off the menu. Short hunts.
C'mon, stx. Let's not play games. Anyone who has a passing acquaintance with HF "hunting" knows that is true.
The fence is there for a reason.
I respectfully disagree. The reason I have a so called HF is because I raise Ibex.
The reason I started this was to get someone to go out on a limb and tell me when a LF ends and a HF starts. I have mostly Axis jump in and jump out. Ask one of the members who tried for one if it was a canned hunt as you seem to imply. I also have a LF place with a feeder on it where getting a deer is a heck of s lot easier than the HF place. If you are saying that all HF places are like canned hunts you are, let me put this as PC as possible "full of excrement".
Read the post you just quoted. Again. Slowly.
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
Hahaha
Posted By: stxranchman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 02:20 AM
The fence is there for a lot of reason. Not just one reason to emphasis a certain point. Have you been on every LF or HF ranch in Texas? If not then you can not speak for all of them. You can only speak for the one(s) you have been on. Offer proof of your statements then your statement will be valid.
If one says all HF hunts are easier than all LF hunts, that can certainly be fairly characterized an over-generalization.
If one says the vast majority of HF hunts are easier than the vast majority of LF hunts, that is not an over-generalization. That is simply a fact that only folks in total denial would dispute.
That's why using the examples of "easy" LF hunts to compare them to examples of "hard" HF hunts is not persuasive and is, in fact, disingenuous. Why? Because they are not the norm since they are extreme examples on the far end of the spectrum for each. On your HF ram hunt, you were hunting one particular animal. Not quite a fair basis for comparison to LF hunting in general - and certainly not the norm for most HF hunting.
And one thing that the HF always does is this: it keeps the animals within the confines of the fence. They are in those confines today. And they will remain there tomorrow, and the next day, and all season long. That certainty is never there without the HF. That's the game changer. And that is not a generalization. It's a fact.
The fence is there for a reason.
That's a silly and, of course, impossible standard to ask anyone to meet. I stand by what I said. The vast majority of HF hunts are easier/less challenging than the vast majority of LF free range hunts.
First, it's common sense. Because the animals in the HF are enclosed. Trapped.
Second, one glance at the websites of most HF places will confirm that. Big animals. Guaranteed. Off the menu. Short hunts.
C'mon, stx. Let's not play games. Anyone who has a passing acquaintance with HF "hunting" knows that is true.
The fence is there for a reason.
Then by your same standards your response and deflection are just as silly since you obviously have not been on many HF ranches. Just state facts not those woulda, coulda, shoulda's. That in my world would be stretching the truth to fit your agenda. Anyone knows you are picking the cherries. Not every ranch sells hunts, not every ranch has big animals, not every ranch is small, etc. You cherry pick the high points to suit your agenda. You are as bad at TPWD with your biased statements on deer breeders....since on any given ranch that has a HF and are a breeder they operate the same...guilty by association.
You can not state that all HF hunts are the same since you have never hunted on one single ranch and never been on every HF that you lump together as one. I have been on a lot and venture to say been on more than anyone on here, as a guest or invite. Many I approve of their practices and a few I do not. That is my opinion just as it is their choice to run their operations as they choose. Neither one of us have to approve nor do the same, but it is their choice to do what they like.
Your view of a HF is only a trap that is void of cover and escape routes. The deer do not view it as a trap if they are born there, they view it as their home range. Home range. I am guessing you think all deer in every HF was released onto the ranch also. If a deer is born and raised on a property no matter what size it is, he knows it better than you and I ever will know, no matter what the fence height is. It is that deer's "home range". Many confuse well managed ranches with a structured age herd as "easy", fence height does not matter when you have a well structured herd. You will see deer of all age classes during the season no matter what the height of the fence is. On a ranch that has a structured herd you will see deer and good deer during the rut. Killing any deer in a HF could be easy or could be difficult. It depends on the individual ranch. They have a structured age class and good ratio due to their management practices. The fence height helps them insure what they are wanting to do with their land is carried out to the fullest. It also keeps as many deer in as it keeps out.
I can pick ranches that are LF that have big deer on their websites also if they sell hunts. Pictures of success stories are a great marketing tool. Do you not tout your success in your business? Do people come to your business due to your failures? I think not. Again you lump all ranches in the same boat if they have a HF. Guilty by association again. I don't play games with facts. I can name more ranches that are well managed very difficult to hunt that are HF than you can the ones that you know of that are bad. I can name a bad one for every one you name and probably will name the same ones you do.
The fence is there for many reasons...I just choose to see all of the reasons, while you pick the cherry to spotlight.
I own land just like you do, all of mine is LF just like yours is. What we both do with our land or the fence height should be our individual choices. Not just yours.
Posted By: T Bone
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 02:25 AM
Colby took a no-no in to the 8th before losing it..
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 02:52 AM
This is just the way some people go through life.
]
Their way is the only way
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:01 AM
That just made my Night ....I will Sleep like a Baby
Posted By: titan2232
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:45 AM
I've taken two animals (Black Hawaiian and Mouflon) from a bow only HF ranch and would consider it simple hunting. I don't feel near as proud with those two animals as I do the 10 pt East Texas deer I shot behind my house with the same bow.
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:51 AM
I've taken two animals (Black Hawaiian and Mouflon) from a bow only HF ranch and would consider it simple hunting. I don't feel near as proud with those two animals as I do the 10 pt East Texas deer I shot behind my house with the same bow.
When an operation is bad you can just walk away and you did it twice.
I went on a LF elk hunt once. Simple 5 x 5 first morning! Does it mean all LF elk hunts are simple.
I suggest if you ever want to try again do some better research. Just a suggestion.
Posted By: titan2232
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 06:00 AM
I thought nothing bad about the operation. Lodging as they said, helpful guide, plenty of animals, and even had some beers with the owner who was a really nice old man (cracked me up telling me the story of how he shoots his Auodad with rubber tipped arrows
to make them wild. SMH)
It just didn't feel the same hunting HF and taking animals than the LF animals I have taken.
I hunt and shoot certain animals to please MYSELF and for me a LF is what gives me the most satisfaction. I don't really have the urge anymore to even shoot a whitetail with a gun. It's a bow for me unless my kids are hunting with me and want to see/shot something.
Perhaps one day I'll make my own long bow, arrows, and arrow heads too.
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 12:08 PM
I thought nothing bad about the operation. Lodging as they said, helpful guide, plenty of animals, and even had some beers with the owner who was a really nice old man (cracked me up telling me the story of how he shoots his Auodad with rubber tipped arrows
to make them wild. SMH)
It just didn't feel the same hunting HF and taking animals than the LF animals I have taken.
I hunt and shoot certain animals to please MYSELF and for me a LF is what gives me the most satisfaction. I don't really have the urge anymore to even shoot a whitetail with a gun. It's a bow for me unless my kids are hunting with me and want to see/shot something.
Perhaps one day I'll make my own long bow, arrows, and arrow heads too.
Your one sentence says it all about the ranch. Good luck on your future hunts.
3 rd - 4 day trip hunting HF before connecting with a rifle.
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 12:38 PM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
Posted By: stxranchman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 01:13 PM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
That really only matters to those who want their name in the "book". An animals home range is still his home range no matter the height of the fence.
Posted By: REALKILLER
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 01:28 PM
I did some work for a very wealthy oil man. He had built a HF ranch and it was a few years old. He always wanted me to take him hunting for a trophy sized free range white tail buck. His trade was going to be a black buck doe? He was letting people shoot his over populated back buck does for 100 dollars. SO he valued my guided white tail hunt at the price of 100 dollars? I saw him a few years later and he told me I wasn't his hero anymore because his white tail bucks were 6 and 7 years old now and he could kill a big buck with ease anytime in his HF ranch, and he told me deer hunting was easy. This was a 300 acre high fence at the time. I had another guy tell me that he quit hunting deer because it was too easy, and I knew that he was full of s t because his company would take them on guided HF hunts. I said why don't you try to create a challenge. HF makes peoples brains get spungey.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 01:34 PM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
I do not think that the basic argument here is that HF and LF are they are the same. Just like the typical LF deer hunting in Texas is not the same as hunting the typical free range deer hunting in Maine. But I would suggest that there are probably HF hunts that are just as challenging as a LF hunt.
What is being said is that hunting either HF or LF is a personal decision/preference just like the selection of one's weapon or the decision on the animal one considers to be a trophy. So if someone wants a HF experience let them have that option..and don't impose your values on others (which I do not think you were trying to do.....your point was HF will never be the same as LF).
Posted By: TFF Caribou
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 01:49 PM
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
The difference is, you know, without a doubt, that the lady is in the picture.
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
The difference is, you know, without a doubt, that the lady is in the picture.
Touche'.
And, in the HF world either: 1)she isn't that hard to find or 2)most all of them are ladies.
Posted By: REALKILLER
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 02:37 PM
Does Maine look like this. That's my back yard and that goes on for 400 yrds and gets thicker. East Tx hunting is thick. Deer can hide in the woods all day long and youll never see them.
Does Maine look like this. That's my back yard and that goes on for 400 yrds and gets thicker. East Tx hunting is thick. Deer can hide in the woods all day long and youll never see them.
I hunted a 21k HF that looked a lot like that. I came home with a doe after five days . Never saw a mature buck. Only 1 out of 6 of us killed a buck. Fun hunt regardless charity auction hunt.
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 02:40 PM
The NE is like that, only more elevation change to go along with it.
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
The difference is, you know, without a doubt, that the lady is in the picture.
No you don't, you assume. Not always the case.
Even if she is there, what makes you think you will find her from the ground? Unless that's a moderately wide open place good luck.
Now I am just an old East Texas boy that has only hunted on a big place twice in my life. LF 6000 acres south of Sonora. Have spent a grand total of 8 hunting days there (I was actually the chief cook...my son & grandson were the hunters). I did ride around the place almost everyday with the lease holder. We did not come close to covering the whole place. It seemed massive to me. The biggest place I ever hunted before was 1600 mostly wooded (East Texas) acres. Y'all have discussed HF places of 300 acres to several thousand acres many times. From my limited amount of experience I don't believe that a HF is any easier to hunt than a LF place. The work still has to be done to pattern the deer. Your blind setup has to be established. You still must practice proper hunting techniques. If it is legal then get after it if you so desire. FYI I was on a lease for several years in Harrison County. It was about 1300 acres mostly no fence. I had a primitive ground blind on the edge of a 75 acre pasture with a running creek, mixed hardwoods and pines. For several years on opening morning around 7 am I would pick out a meat doe or buck and by 7:30 am I was drinking coffee. Now I admit to being a meat hunter only (I only have one nice 8 point mounted) but I assure you a HF hunt could not have been any easier.
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
The difference is, you know, without a doubt, that the lady is in the picture.
Touche'.
And, in the HF world either: 1)she isn't that hard to find or 2)most all of them are ladies.
Makes no sense. Not hard to find? Excluding lots of variables and making lots of assumptions.
Whatever you say Bobo. You really need to tell all those idiots to quit wasting their money on those fences.
It's gonna take a while though - better take out some radio/TV time.
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:01 PM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
I do not think that the basic argument here is that HF and LF are they are the same. Just like the typical LF deer hunting in Texas is not the same as hunting the typical free range deer hunting in Maine. But I would suggest that there are probably HF hunts that are just as challenging as a LF hunt.
What is being said is that hunting either HF or LF is a personal decision/preference just like the selection of one's weapon or the decision on the animal one considers to be a trophy. So if someone wants a HF experience let them have that option..and don't impose your values on others (which I do not think you were trying to do.....your point was HF will never be the same as LF).
Personal preferences are just that though. Nothing wrong with them whatever they might be. It's the justification attempts that generally fuel the debates on things being the same. When things start out different though and try to get brought together as being the same that wall goes up and the conversation will go to the toilet.
Whatever you say Bobo. You really need to tell all those idiots to quit wasting their money on those fences.
It's gonna take a while though - better take out some radio/TV time.
Maintaining quality or putting best efforts into better age structure or genetics doesn't dictate how hard or easy a hunt it will be. Especially when you target a specific animal. But your right what do I know.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:14 PM
Personal preferences are just that though. Nothing wrong with them whatever they might be. It's the justification attempts that generally fuel the debates on things being the same. When things start out different though and try to get brought together as being the same that wall goes up and the conversation will go to the toilet.
Same could be said for methods, style, locations, guides, etc.
There is no doubt that it is easier to kill an animal with a rifle than with a bow, yet you rarely see someone degrade and ridicule someone for posting a picture of an animal killed with rifle, or one that was found by someone else and a hunter was brought in to kill it, or any of the other ways that hunters differ. Also, you rarely see an outfitter get belittled because he offers rifle hunts or guided hunts, unless they are on a HF.
HF is its own entity and in its own realm and the discussion is fueled by a handful of individuals.
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
I do not think that the basic argument here is that HF and LF are they are the same. Just like the typical LF deer hunting in Texas is not the same as hunting the typical free range deer hunting in Maine. But I would suggest that there are probably HF hunts that are just as challenging as a LF hunt.
What is being said is that hunting either HF or LF is a personal decision/preference just like the selection of one's weapon or the decision on the animal one considers to be a trophy. So if someone wants a HF experience let them have that option..and don't impose your values on others (which I do not think you were trying to do.....your point was HF will never be the same as LF).
Personal preferences are just that though. Nothing wrong with them whatever they might be. It's the justification attempts that generally fuel the debates on things being the same. When things start out different though and try to get brought together as being the same that wall goes up and the conversation will go to the toilet.
No two hunts or properties will ever be the same. All animals very in degree of acceptance of human presence. A fence doesn't change that. Pressure does.
Fact of the matter is no 300 acre ranch will ever be similar to a larger or smaller one. No lease that has 1 Hunter per 100 acres will be the same as one with one Hunter per 500 or 1000 etc.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:19 PM
Does Maine look like this. That's my back yard and that goes on for 400 yrds and gets thicker. East Tx hunting is thick. Deer can hide in the woods all day long and youll never see them.
Real Killer... you missed the point. Texas has baiting...Maine doesn't....Texas has a high Deer population...Maine Doesn't. It's different. Not saying one is better or worst or easier or harder.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:25 PM
Real Killer... you missed the point. Texas has baiting...Maine doesn't....Texas has a high Deer population...Maine Doesn't. It's different. Not saying one is better or worst or easier or harder.
Sounds like Maine is different. Sounds like Maine is harder. We should all hunt in Maine. If you don't kill a deer in Maine, you didn't really deserve it and shouldn't be proud of it...think I have heard similar arguments
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:26 PM
Whatever you say Bobo. You really need to tell all those idiots to quit wasting their money on those fences.
It's gonna take a while though - better take out some radio/TV time.
NP, Simple question for you. Would prefer a "yes" or "no" answer if you would.
If you could, would you make hunting behind a HF illegal?
Real Killer... you missed the point. Texas has baiting...Maine doesn't....Texas has a high Deer population...Maine Doesn't. It's different. Not saying one is better or worst or easier or harder.
Sounds like Maine is different. Sounds like Maine is harder. We should all hunt in Maine. If you don't kill a deer in Maine, you didn't really deserve it and shouldn't be proud of it...think I have heard similar arguments
No free passes for age or physical ability either
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:37 PM
Personal preferences are just that though. Nothing wrong with them whatever they might be. It's the justification attempts that generally fuel the debates on things being the same. When things start out different though and try to get brought together as being the same that wall goes up and the conversation will go to the toilet.
Same could be said for methods, style, locations, guides, etc.
There is no doubt that it is easier to kill an animal with a rifle than with a bow, yet you rarely see someone degrade and ridicule someone for posting a picture of an animal killed with rifle, or one that was found by someone else and a hunter was brought in to kill it, or any of the other ways that hunters differ. Also, you rarely see an outfitter get belittled because he offers rifle hunts or guided hunts, unless they are on a HF.
HF is its own entity and in its own realm and the discussion is fueled by a handful of individuals.
You're talking preferences vs a control though. its apples to oranges. A guide finding an animal is not a control, a guy shooting an animal with a rifle vs bow is not a control, etc. Preferences concentrate around the Hunter, the other concentrates around the animal and/or generations of animals involved.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:38 PM
Real Killer... you missed the point. Texas has baiting...Maine doesn't....Texas has a high Deer population...Maine Doesn't. It's different. Not saying one is better or worst or easier or harder.
Sounds like Maine is different. Sounds like Maine is harder. We should all hunt in Maine. If you don't kill a deer in Maine, you didn't really deserve it and shouldn't be proud of it...think I have heard similar arguments
No free passes for age or physical ability either
Or kids. Don't forget the kids
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 03:45 PM
Personal preferences are just that though. Nothing wrong with them whatever they might be. It's the justification attempts that generally fuel the debates on things being the same. When things start out different though and try to get brought together as being the same that wall goes up and the conversation will go to the toilet.
Same could be said for methods, style, locations, guides, etc.
There is no doubt that it is easier to kill an animal with a rifle than with a bow, yet you rarely see someone degrade and ridicule someone for posting a picture of an animal killed with rifle, or one that was found by someone else and a hunter was brought in to kill it, or any of the other ways that hunters differ. Also, you rarely see an outfitter get belittled because he offers rifle hunts or guided hunts, unless they are on a HF.
HF is its own entity and in its own realm and the discussion is fueled by a handful of individuals.
You're talking preferences vs a control though. its apples to oranges. A guide finding an animal is not a control, a guy shooting an animal with a rifle vs bow is not a control, etc. Preferences concentrate around the Hunter, the other concentrates around the animal and/or generations of animals involved.
If that is the case, then why can 99.9% of all the arguments made for or against HF places be used in a debate about preferences? Only valid argument then is that there is a boundary that is not a natural boundary. The rest of the arguments against HF's should be nullified if a comparison to similar activities with the same issues are negated.
Whatever you say Bobo. You really need to tell all those idiots to quit wasting their money on those fences.
It's gonna take a while though - better take out some radio/TV time.
NP, Simple question for you. Would prefer a "yes" or "no" answer if you would.
If you could, would you make hunting behind a HF illegal?
It's too late for that here in TX. Will never happen.
If I could, I would go back in time and they would never have been allowed to start. They should have been made illegal years ago.
Right now, I would settle for folks to quit acting like it's all the same and they make no difference. That's why I post on the topic. Peer pressure is powerful. If a guy goes on a weekend HF hunt and shoots a 250" in a pen - that's fine. It's legal. But it disrespects our hunting heritage to act like it was some sort of accomplishment.
And it's not really about the guy who killed the 250" - it's about the guy who killed the 170 free range and fair chase. It diminishes his accomplishment to act like it's all the same. I think hard effort and skill should be admired - and shortcuts taken just to put a head on the wall should be called what they are.
After all, truth is truth. Why should it not be discussed?
(For the record, I have never killed a record book deer, nor am I ever likely to. It's not about me.)
Personal preferences are just that though. Nothing wrong with them whatever they might be. It's the justification attempts that generally fuel the debates on things being the same. When things start out different though and try to get brought together as being the same that wall goes up and the conversation will go to the toilet.
Same could be said for methods, style, locations, guides, etc.
There is no doubt that it is easier to kill an animal with a rifle than with a bow, yet you rarely see someone degrade and ridicule someone for posting a picture of an animal killed with rifle, or one that was found by someone else and a hunter was brought in to kill it, or any of the other ways that hunters differ. Also, you rarely see an outfitter get belittled because he offers rifle hunts or guided hunts, unless they are on a HF.
HF is its own entity and in its own realm and the discussion is fueled by a handful of individuals.
You're talking preferences vs a control though. its apples to oranges. A guide finding an animal is not a control, a guy shooting an animal with a rifle vs bow is not a control, etc. Preferences concentrate around the Hunter, the other concentrates around the animal and/or generations of animals involved.
If that is the case, then why can 99.9% of all the arguments made for or against HF places be used in a debate about preferences? Only valid argument then is that there is a boundary that is not a natural boundary. The rest of the arguments against HF's should be nullified if a comparison to similar activities with the same issues are negated.
It's not a "boundary". It's an enclosure. It traps animals in. That's the elephant in the room. And it's a big elephant.
The "methods" arguments are different. So all that's a red-herring.
1)Whatever the method - the animals are not enclosed so they can't go anywhere. The elephant.
2)Nobody argues a rifle is the same as a bow. That would be stupid. It's equally stupid to argue HF is the same as free range (see #1 above). But folks do it all the time. That's the difference.
Apples. Oranges.
Bottom line is everybody wants to tiptoe around the HF discussion and act like it's all the same/no big deal. And they twist themselves in knots trying to act like it's no big deal/makes no difference.
I get it: everybody wants to get along and not cause division. Nothing wrong with wanting everyone to get along.
But any endeavor that is worthwhile should be able to handle open discussion about it. The fact that this topic doesn't speaks volumes.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:12 PM
So again, your only argument is that it is an enclosure. The rest is simply your opinion about an activity that is legal and prevailant and is based on emotion alone
Arguing boundaries versus enclosure is simply semantics and your choice of enclosure is simply to propagate your agenda.
Posted By: rifleman
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:16 PM
Personal preferences are just that though. Nothing wrong with them whatever they might be. It's the justification attempts that generally fuel the debates on things being the same. When things start out different though and try to get brought together as being the same that wall goes up and the conversation will go to the toilet.
Same could be said for methods, style, locations, guides, etc.
There is no doubt that it is easier to kill an animal with a rifle than with a bow, yet you rarely see someone degrade and ridicule someone for posting a picture of an animal killed with rifle, or one that was found by someone else and a hunter was brought in to kill it, or any of the other ways that hunters differ. Also, you rarely see an outfitter get belittled because he offers rifle hunts or guided hunts, unless they are on a HF.
HF is its own entity and in its own realm and the discussion is fueled by a handful of individuals.
You're talking preferences vs a control though. its apples to oranges. A guide finding an animal is not a control, a guy shooting an animal with a rifle vs bow is not a control, etc. Preferences concentrate around the Hunter, the other concentrates around the animal and/or generations of animals involved.
If that is the case, then why can 99.9% of all the arguments made for or against HF places be used in a debate about preferences? Only valid argument then is that there is a boundary that is not a natural boundary. The rest of the arguments against HF's should be nullified if a comparison to similar activities with the same issues are negated.
Bc people grasp at straws in the justification. There doesn't need to be a justification if that's what they want to do as their preference. The control boundary alters animal movement, home ranges, displacement, genetic concentration, competition, sometimes predation, etc. that's a huge argument when you look at a deer inside the fence and ask yourself without the conditions would it actually exist. Would its sire be there, would the dam have been there, would pressure have pushed it on, would it have been shot already, would it's sire have been shot, would it's dam have been shot. Would they have been hit by a car, would a fire have pushed them out, would a flood have pushed them out....and carry that thought process back generations. Those are not preference arguments, that's the reality of things. It's not my place to care one way or another for people's preferences, but when they claim something to be the same when it can never be then I take issue with bad information.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:18 PM
Bottom line is everybody wants to tiptoe around the HF discussion and act like it's all the same/no big deal. And they twist themselves in knots trying to act like it's no big deal/makes no difference.
I get it: everybody wants to get along and not cause division. Nothing wrong with wanting everyone to get along.
But any endeavor that is worthwhile should be able to handle open discussion about it. The fact that this topic doesn't speaks volumes.
We have more discussions about this than any other topic and they go more pages than most other topics. For me, it isn't about getting along, it is about being respectful of others and their choice to hunt with and by any legal means necessary and to discuss it in a way that it does not attack or offend a persons choice or livelihood. Disagreements are good for all and we don't all have to agree. There are methods of hunting that I do not agree with and I don't personally practice, but I don't care to see them outlawed and I don't knock others for doing them. Doesn't mean I won't argue with someone about them though.
It's not the same, never heard anyone say that. Most the defense is made concerning the attacks. It is your opinion they are inferior. It is a fact that the fence creates a boundary. The rest is an emotional bias that can't be supported by facts, only beliefs and conjectures.
So again, your only argument is that it is an enclosure. The rest is simply your opinion about an activity that is legal and prevailant and is based on emotion alone
Arguing boundaries versus enclosure is simply semantics and your choice of enclosure is simply to propagate your agenda.
Calling an 8' tall fence built for the sole purpose of penning in animals an enclosure is not an "agenda".
It's just a simple fact.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:21 PM
NP,
I understand your thought process. HF and LF are not the same. That said, I personally don't think that any animal killed behind a high fence takes away from someone who has killed an animal that is free range. All hunts are different and each one should stand alone. I have killed some huge deer in Iowa that are 170ish gross that I am very proud of even though they were with an outfitter....and I have killed some 140's and a 150 in VA on my own land that I am equally proud of.....to me one isn't any better than the other....and I don't (and wont) let someone who killed a 250" deer in a high fence make me feel any differently about my deer. I don't think it takes away from my accomplishments.... but then I hunt for my own satisfaction....I try and kill mature deer....I do not hunt to impress anyone else. Nor do I need their validation for how I hunt or where I hunt.. or the method for that matter. For the record, the 150 in VA with a bow is no more special than the 170" in Iowa with the Muzzleloader or the 170" South Dakota with a bow.... it was the experience and the trophy.
What I tell my kids (I will be 69 in December and my kids are 28 and 24) is that they should NEVER let anyone define who they are...that is something they need to do for themselves.
BTW, you say "And it's not really about the guy who killed the 250" - it's about the guy who killed the 170 free range and fair chase. It diminishes his accomplishment to act like it's all the same. I think hard effort and skill should be admired - and shortcuts taken just to put a head on the wall should be called what they are." I don't think the high fence trophy diminishes the low fence trophy in any way. And I do not think anyone on here would feel that it does. I'm impressed with ANY free range deer over 140". And depending on where they were taken and the method/circumstances I am more impressed with some more than others.
Also, I do not recall ever seeing anyone on THF post a picture of a deer killed in a HF that tried to proclaim himself a great hunter (they may say it is a great deer or they had a great hunt) and try to say his deer was better than a free range deer. Maybe I missed those posts.
You will probably be pissed at me for saying this, but you really need to lighten up. And for the record, I was offended by your reference to me as being "disingenuous." You have read enough of my posts to know better.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:26 PM
It's not my place to care one way or another for people's preferences, but when they claim something to be the same when it can never be then I take issue with bad information.
Same can be said for guided vs DIY
It diminishes it when it is discussed as if it's the same. That diminishes hunting as a whole. That's why I don't like it.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend.
As for "lightening up", I am light as a feather. Discussion of this type doesn't come from a place of stress of anger for me. It's what I do. I rather enjoy a good debate.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:28 PM
NP,
Apology accepted
I thought you'd like that
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:28 PM
It diminishes it when it is discussed as if it's the same. That diminishes hunting as a whole. That's why I don't like it.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend.
As for "lightening up", I am light as a feather. Discussion of this type doesn't come from a place of stress of anger for me. It's what I do. I rather enjoy a good debate.
Argument could be made that it actually does the opposite of what you imply and amplifies the 170" buck and the accomplishment rather than diminish it.
It's not my place to care one way or another for people's preferences, but when they claim something to be the same when it can never be then I take issue with bad information.
Same can be said for guided vs DIY
No, it cannot.
The guided/DIY deal has way too many variables on both sides. Folks without an agenda understand that.
It diminishes it when it is discussed as if it's the same. That diminishes hunting as a whole. That's why I don't like it.
Sorry, didn't mean to offend.
As for "lightening up", I am light as a feather. Discussion of this type doesn't come from a place of stress of anger for me. It's what I do. I rather enjoy a good debate.
Argument could be made that it actually does the opposite of what you imply and amplifies the 170" buck and the accomplishment rather than diminish it.
If everything stood in the light of truth, that would be true. Good point.
NP,
Apology accepted
I thought you'd like that
Please don't take me too personally. I don't mean it that way - even though it may appear so sometimes. That's on me.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:47 PM
NP,
We are good..... no problems here.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 04:52 PM
It's not my place to care one way or another for people's preferences, but when they claim something to be the same when it can never be then I take issue with bad information.
Same can be said for guided vs DIY
No, it cannot.
The guided/DIY deal has way too many variables on both sides. Folks without an agenda understand that.
I have no agenda, but I agree that it can be understood by those without an agenda.
People do the same with guided/DIY. People try to justify it and make them the same, but they aren't. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, but having a guide that lives and breathes the hunt is different than the hunter that studies and accomplishes the same without it.
Same with private versus public. There is a difference. No reason to try to make it the same when it can never be.
It's not my place to care one way or another for people's preferences, but when they claim something to be the same when it can never be then I take issue with bad information.
Same can be said for guided vs DIY
No, it cannot.
The guided/DIY deal has way too many variables on both sides. Folks without an agenda understand that.
I have no agenda, but I agree that it can be understood by those without an agenda.
People do the same with guided/DIY. People try to justify it and make them the same, but they aren't. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, but having a guide that lives and breathes the hunt is different than the hunter that studies and accomplishes the same without it.
Same with private versus public. There is a difference. No reason to try to make it the same when it can never be.
Guided/DIY and public/private generate about 1/100th the light and heat of the HF debate.
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 05:22 PM
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
The difference is, you know, without a doubt, that the lady is in the picture.
Like you don't know deer are going to show up at your feeder, oat field....
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 05:29 PM
Weekend entertainment.
Find the lady missing one shoe within this restricted area! Remember it's "Always" simple!
The difference is, you know, without a doubt, that the lady is in the picture.
Touche'.
And, in the HF world either: 1)she isn't that hard to find or 2)most all of them are ladies.
The real difference is, you knew, without a doubt, the pre-scouted guided hunt some book knew the male was in the picture before they arrived.
And, in the LF world under certain circumstances he isn't that hard to find.
So again, your only argument is that it is an enclosure. The rest is simply your opinion about an activity that is legal and prevailant and is based on emotion alone
Arguing boundaries versus enclosure is simply semantics and your choice of enclosure is simply to propagate your agenda.
Calling an 8' tall fence built for the sole purpose of penning in animals an enclosure is not an "agenda".
It's just a simple fact.
You're right that's not an agenda. But replying to a hunters thread telling his proud story about his elk is. Especially when the post wasn't a question for an opinion. That's the true definition of an agenda. Going out of ones way to degrade especially with no thought to a hunters physical abilities, age, monetary standing etc. truly defines a person's agenda.
Telling people how to legally hunt is petty, mocking ones animals takes a very very little man.
THF is about hunt experiences and passions for the outdoors, why can one not share those experiences with out ridicule? That would be because of agenda's.
Telling people how to legally hunt is petty, mocking ones animals takes a very very little man.
THF is about hunt experiences and passions for the outdoors, why can one not share those experiences with out ridicule? That would be because of agenda's.
So again, your only argument is that it is an enclosure. The rest is simply your opinion about an activity that is legal and prevailant and is based on emotion alone
Arguing boundaries versus enclosure is simply semantics and your choice of enclosure is simply to propagate your agenda.
Calling an 8' tall fence built for the sole purpose of penning in animals an enclosure is not an "agenda".
It's just a simple fact.
You're right that's not an agenda. But replying to a hunters thread telling his proud story about his elk is. Especially when the post wasn't a question for an opinion. That's the true definition of an agenda. Going out of ones way to degrade especially with no thought to a hunters physical abilities, age, monetary standing etc. truly defines a person's agenda.
Telling people how to legally hunt is petty, mocking ones animals takes a very very little man.
THF is about hunt experiences and passions for the outdoors, why can one not share those experiences with out ridicule? That would be because of agenda's.
As usual, you are way up on an imaginary high horse Bobo. I didn't tell anyone how to hunt or half the crap you accuse me of on there. Your judgment is clouded with emotions.
And he straight up asked a straight up question. He is the one who posted. He asked the question. And he was obviously the one wanting a HF discussion. If you don't want a discussion about about HF hunting, maybe one good rule to follow is not post asking for one a hunting discussion forum. BTW, I didn't see him complaining.....
Talk about whining.....sheesh. Some of y'all act like a bunch of emotional Jr. High girls whenever this issue comes up.
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 08:29 PM
I really am not shooting for more popcorn drama. I am perfectly content to let this die.
But just straight up calling me out like that demands a response.
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 08:37 PM
Entertainment that is all. I am sure we are all grown arse men and have our own thoughts and beliefs.
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 08:42 PM
Has anyone ever heard of anyone buying a high fenced ranch an taking down the high fence and making it all low fence?.....................The unmistakable sound of crickets!
Entertainment that is all. I am sure we are all grown arse men and have our own thoughts and beliefs.
That's what it is for me. For others, it is obviously much more than that.
Posted By: txshntr
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 09:07 PM
Entertainment that is all. I am sure we are all grown arse men and have our own thoughts and beliefs.
That's what it is for me. For others, it is obviously much more than that.
Personal insults and degrading others goes beyond entertainment for some.
Entertainment that is all. I am sure we are all grown arse men and have our own thoughts and beliefs.
That's what it is for me. For others, it is obviously much more than that.
Personal insults and degrading others goes beyond entertainment for some.
And if I did those things I could see that. Discussion of a side of an issue that someone doesn't like is not a personal insult or degradation. It's just that many take it that way.
This pretty much sums it up:
So again, your only argument is that it is an enclosure. The rest is simply your opinion about an activity that is legal and prevailant and is based on emotion alone
Arguing boundaries versus enclosure is simply semantics and your choice of enclosure is simply to propagate your agenda.
Calling an 8' tall fence built for the sole purpose of penning in animals an enclosure is not an "agenda".
It's just a simple fact.
You're right that's not an agenda. But replying to a hunters thread telling his proud story about his elk is. Especially when the post wasn't a question for an opinion. That's the true definition of an agenda. Going out of ones way to degrade especially with no thought to a hunters physical abilities, age, monetary standing etc. truly defines a person's agenda.
Telling people how to legally hunt is petty, mocking ones animals takes a very very little man.
THF is about hunt experiences and passions for the outdoors, why can one not share those experiences with out ridicule? That would be because of agenda's.
As usual, you are way up on an imaginary high horse Bobo. I didn't tell anyone how to hunt or half the crap you accuse me of on there. Your judgment is clouded with emotions.
And he straight up asked a straight up question. He is the one who posted. He asked the question. And he was obviously the one wanting a HF discussion. If you don't want a discussion about about HF hunting, maybe one good rule to follow is not post asking for one a hunting discussion forum. BTW, I didn't see him complaining.....
Talk about whining.....sheesh. Some of y'all act like a bunch of emotional Jr. High girls whenever this issue comes up.
I wasn't talking about you.. But apparently you feel guilty which means you are.
Re-read it again. The title of that thread is in reference to his thread earlier this year (another thread you pushed in to the toilet and bashed on). His post is nothing more then his hunt and his experience.
Pretty damn sad a man can't share his hunt experience with THF with out agenda comments. Thanks NP, for making people feel so welcome to post hunting pictures.
Imaginary high horse, lol. That's some funny stuff, check the mirror you have some soul searching todo. Your post history doesn't lie.
HF vs LF specific debates are fine... Telling someone they killed a tame pet isn't that's classless
This whole deal reminds me of the old joke about the wife asking her husband the question of "Does this dress make my butt look big?"
If you think about, it's the perfect analogy from every angle.
I guess I am playing the role of the stupid husband who actually answers the question. Then all heck breaks loose.
Oh, you weren't talking about me. OK.
Oh, you weren't talking about me. OK.
Oh did you post on his thread, and talk down?
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 10:17 PM
I think we know where everyone stands.
Bottom line, let's all agree that the original poster had a great hunt and shot a nice bull...and we're all happy for him.
Regarding HF vs LF..... let's agree we all have our opinions and they differ... and there are degrees within those opinions.
Oh, you weren't talking about me. OK.
Oh did you post on his thread, and talk down?
Dude, you quoted my post and replied to me directly.
Everybody on here can read Bobo.
Oh, you weren't talking about me. OK.
Oh did you post on his thread, and talk down?
Dude, you quoted my post and replied to me directly.
Everybody on here can read Bobo.
It was a general statement, but after further review it does include you
Only a special kind of person WOULD post comments to effect nobody owes the op an apology he brought the degrading comments on himself by posting a HF hunt.
You are some kind of special NP.
Classless. Atleast be a semi-man an own up to it.
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 10:41 PM
I think we know where everyone stands.
Bottom line, let's all agree that the original poster had a great hunt and shot a nice bull...and we're all happy for him.
Regarding HF vs LF..... let's agree we all have our opinions and they differ... and there are degrees within those opinions.
When I see that quote from NP without further comment... We will have achieved one giant step.
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/12/15 10:50 PM
And all I wanted to know was at what height above ground does a LF end and a HF begin.
4 feet. That kept out the buffalo. Four feet is okay for some, as long as whitetail can jump it.
But until I see buffalo roaming Bandera County, I say the whole dang state has already been HFed.
So again, your only argument is that it is an enclosure. The rest is simply your opinion about an activity that is legal and prevailant and is based on emotion alone
Arguing boundaries versus enclosure is simply semantics and your choice of enclosure is simply to propagate your agenda.
Calling an 8' tall fence built for the sole purpose of penning in animals an enclosure is not an "agenda".
It's just a simple fact.
You're right that's not an agenda. But replying to a hunters thread telling his proud story about his elk is. Especially when the post wasn't a question for an opinion. That's the true definition of an agenda. Going out of ones way to degrade especially with no thought to a hunters physical abilities, age, monetary standing etc. truly defines a person's agenda.
Telling people how to legally hunt is petty, mocking ones animals takes a very very little man.
THF is about hunt experiences and passions for the outdoors, why can one not share those experiences with out ridicule? That would be because of agenda's.
Here it is again. And you still want to stick with the story you weren't talking to me? Really? Who's the "you're" referring to? Santa Claus?
It's gone all Alice In Wonderland up in here. Again, I'll remind - people can read. Most can even think. They can see all that is happening here.
I'm out. Bash away. Make all the stuff up you want. Say black is white and white is black. This ran it's course long ago anyway.
There where several demeaning comments by a few individuals, ironically all HF haters, that would be an agenda.....demean people so they don't post.... My comment covered multiple people. But after further review.....
Again it wasn't a HF LF debate. It was his story of his hunt, him telling everyone about his hunt.. Plain as day!!!! For the record I can't see why he would post again after such a comment. You're Special kind of person NP, no body owes him an apology for demeaning his hunt or animal...he brought it on himself... As I said special kind of person NP. Reading that make you proud? He never asked a question... Straight up posted his hunt and experience but you already now that, and as you always do in fashion you are a donkey and demean others hunts because it's no your way of doing things.
Read away. Atleast own it.
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 03:33 AM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
That really only matters to those who want their name in the "book". An animals home range is still his home range no matter the height of the fence.
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 04:20 AM
And it's not really about the guy who killed the 250" - it's about the guy who killed the 170 free range and fair chase. It diminishes his accomplishment to act like it's all the same. I think hard effort and skill should be admired - and shortcuts taken just to put a head on the wall should be called what they are.
After all, truth is truth. Why should it not be discussed?
(For the record, I have never killed a record book deer, nor am I ever likely to. It's not about me.)
So, if a guy kills a book deer over a feeder, how much hard effort and skill went into killing that deer? Hard effort from lifting a 50lb bag of corn?
Posted By: titan2232
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 04:35 AM
And it's not really about the guy who killed the 250" - it's about the guy who killed the 170 free range and fair chase. It diminishes his accomplishment to act like it's all the same. I think hard effort and skill should be admired - and shortcuts taken just to put a head on the wall should be called what they are.
After all, truth is truth. Why should it not be discussed?
(For the record, I have never killed a record book deer, nor am I ever likely to. It's not about me.)
So, if a guy kills a book deer over a feeder, how much hard effort and skill went into killing that deer? Hard effort from lifting a 50lb bag of corn?
How much money went into feed, lease fees, and travel?
How much work/labor did he put in for scouting and set-up?
Had he been following this buck for several seasons or did it just pop-up?
What method was used to take this "book deer"?
Not saying these things make it a "hard hunt" or even different from a HF place, but EACH SITUATION HAS IT'S DIFFERENCES.
I've now been through 10K+ game pictures this year and have only two pictures of this certain buck (Crabby as I call him). He isn't the biggest deer on camera, but he's certainly the ONE I want if he ends up being mature. Not sure if I want him because he's more "aware" (possibly harder to hunt) than the other bucks or if it's because of his antler characteristics.
Posted By: Toepuncher
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 04:48 AM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
That really only matters to those who want their name in the "book". An animals home range is still his home range no matter the height of the fence.
Actually, he didn't nail it at all.
HF's also matter to people who believe that a basic, fundamental undeniable tenet of fair chase hunting is that the animals being pursued are not confined within a fence. For those of us who share this viewpoint, most of the stuff brought up by HF proponents is simply irrelevant noise.
Posted By: BOONER
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 04:52 AM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
That really only matters to those who want their name in the "book". An animals home range is still his home range no matter the height of the fence.
All Hfs aren't the same! They can't be lumped in together. There are legit HF operations and then there are pen raised breeder bucks for sale to the highest bidder. That's why hfs have a bad rep with some folks. Misunderstanding and misinformation and pure ignorance in some cases. Releasing pen raised breeder bucks for hunting shouldn't be legal in my opinion. But my opinion doesn't count so carry on!
Haha did NP really complain that a hf 170 diminishes the guy who shot a 170 inch deer on a low fence? That's a pretty pathetic statement, if you let what someone else does affect you like that then there are bigger issues. If hunting for you is all about why yours is better than someone else's then I think that's a bigger problem than a high fence.
Haha did NP really complain that a hf 170 diminishes the guy who shot a 170 inch deer on a low fence? That's a pretty pathetic statement, if you let what someone else does affect you like that then there are bigger issues. If hunting for you is all about why yours is better than someone else's then I think that's a bigger problem than a high fence.
That's a pretty funny take coming from a HF guy, since about 95+% of the HF places exist so someone can put a big head on the wall to puff himself up about it. And then bring HF threads up constantly on places like this looking for validation because it's all the same. (Ain't it??? Is it?? Tell me it is boys??)
Which is exactly how this thread got started.
Like I said, it's all Alice in Wonderland up in here.
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:15 AM
I don't see how the money spent would equal hard effort and skill? However, my family owns a 670 acre HF place. It was originally LF. We ended up putting the fence up in 1995. The deer are native other than some TTT south Texas native does we brought in 2001 and 2008. Several of the does showed up at the deer processor in Cisco killed by hunters outside of our place.
Since the fence was erected,because of neighbor issues, we have killed 1 deer that scored 169", one that scored 155" and less than a dozen that scored around the 140-145" mark. Are you guaranteed monster deer just because a fence was built? Nope!
We have a buck that I had 6-7 pics of last year on trail camera. I saw the buck in person ONE time last year at 350 yards. This year, I have had 3 pics of this buck on trail camera(well over 10k pics with 5 cameras on the ranch). I sat out tonight doing blind counts and finally saw him in person. He is a wise buck and didn't go to the feeder. I took some pics at 200+ yards. He would be the 2nd biggest buck ever produced on the ranch in 20 years. He will get a pass to hopefully spread his genes. Could he die of natural causes....sure. That is the risk you take. Could he jump the fence or go through a watt gap? Yep. We actually had 100 yards of fence down this year due to flooding early in the year.
We sell an occasional hunt to help pay part of a feed bill. I've even had "doe" hunters that went home without killing a doe. It's not a petting zoo like some think.
Here is the pic I got tonight. We have spent 100s of hours siting out this summer and no one has seen this buck
[URL=http://s23.photobucket.com/user/antler01/media/6BBEA73D-7967-410C-8129-D4B24EE2279D_zps4galqlve.jpg.html]
2 bucks in the 160s in 20 years....how much money do you think it cost us?
Posted By: BOONER
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:17 AM
HF/LF will never be the same regardless of difficulty level or actual reasoning for the fence due to the fact there's a control in place with the fence.
That really only matters to those who want their name in the "book". An animals home range is still his home range no matter the height of the fence.
All Hfs aren't the same! They can't be lumped in together. There are legit HF operations and then there are pen raised breeder bucks for sale to the highest bidder. That's why hfs have a bad rep with some folks. Misunderstanding and misinformation and pure ignorance in some cases. Releasing pen raised breeder bucks for hunting shouldn't be legal in my opinion. But my opinion doesn't count so carry on!
One step to fix this problem is to ban all breeding for hunting purposes! Once man controls the breeding of an animal that animal becomes livestock!
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:21 AM
Who cares? I can't believe grown arse men have been bickering all day about this crap. Hunt the way you want to hunt and be happy for whoever hunted what if they are why are you passing judgement hell I could careless what you think??? What does it matter as long as the Hunter is happy?
Posted By: BOONER
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:23 AM
Tye that is one beautiful buck! You guys are doing it right! It's a shame that other greedy folks give the good honest folk a bad name. I know you said he gets a pass but good luck to you on that! I would shat myself if he walked out in front of me!
Who cares? I can't believe grown arse men have been bickering all day about this crap. Hunt the way you want to hunt and be happy for whoever hunted what if they are why are you passing judgement hell I could careless what you think??? What does it matter as long as the Hunter is happy?
Apparently many are not really happy - these threads are almost always started by HF guys.
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:45 AM
Tye that is one beautiful buck! You guys are doing it right! It's a shame that other greedy folks give the good honest folk a bad name. I know you said he gets a pass but good luck to you on that! I would shat myself if he walked out in front of me!
Thanks BOONER. It's been a long haul since we decided to manage the deer.
That buck wouldn't even make the radar on some HF places, but he is a prize buck for us. Eastland county isn't known for the best genetics. Age is the biggest key but even that doesn't equate to monster deer. I find it funny that some assume that since there is a 8' fence that the deer become tame and are easy to hunt. Here are some of the blind counts from this year. HF doesn't mean there are deer running around everywhere and hammering the feeders.
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:49 AM
Who cares? I can't believe grown arse men have been bickering all day about this crap. Hunt the way you want to hunt and be happy for whoever hunted what if they are why are you passing judgement hell I could careless what you think??? What does it matter as long as the Hunter is happy?
Apparently many are not really happy - these threads are almost always started by HF guys.
I thought you "were out" on this thread....
Posted By: BOONER
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:51 AM
Tye some people are just plain ol stupid!!! Good luck to you man!
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 06:04 AM
Tye some people are just plain ol stupid!!! Good luck to you man!
Same to you. Kill a big one!
Posted By: titan2232
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 06:42 AM
Blah Blah Blah Ba frickin Blah....
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 07:51 AM
Haha did NP really complain that a hf 170 diminishes the guy who shot a 170 inch deer on a low fence? That's a pretty pathetic statement, if you let what someone else does affect you like that then there are bigger issues. If hunting for you is all about why yours is better than someone else's then I think that's a bigger problem than a high fence.
That's a pretty funny take coming from a HF guy,
since about 95+% of the HF places exist so someone can put a big head on the wall to puff himself up about it. And then bring HF threads up constantly on places like this looking for validation because it's all the same. (Ain't it??? Is it?? Tell me it is boys??)
Which is exactly how this thread got started.
Like I said, it's all Alice in Wonderland up in here.
You are right this is Alice in Wonderland and you are the Mad Hatter. If anyone has a "Big Head" to "Puff Himself Up" that would be you. In this case " Area Size does Matter"
If you really believe your statement then the same can be said for your Arizona introduced, well managed, restricted mountain range unit area Sheep tags....They Exists so some hunter can post on THF and say "Look at me". Big Head... Puff himself up...
Even as an attorney you know nothing is certain or as it seems. You never lump all rich people into crooks, not all attorney's are good, not all cooks can serve great meals. Therefore not all HF can be the same. "Once again Size of Area does Matter"
But somehow you with one brush stroke place all HF hunters into babies needing attention and all HF ranches into feed bucket shooting. You will never make any headway until you find a middle ground or further your agenda without understanding not everything is Black & White.
I know because I have hunted North America sheep, goats,moose, caribou,elk, mule deer, mountain lion, bears, muskox, pronghorn, whitetail, buffalo, African lion,Kudu, Eland, numerous plains game, exotics like Axis, Mouflon, blackbuck, Stag, fallow, sheep.... And I have had quality hunting experiences in all areas.
Probably our largest difference is your entire agenda is backed by HF no matter the size is a pen, period. I keep my dog in a pen. my cattle in a pasture and my whitetail within a well managed ranch they call home.
Yet you will never admit a sheep tag drawn for a restricted unit has already been defined as knowing full well the trophy rams are their within a unit.
Preference points get you into the restricted, best managed hunting locations. Hunters work hard for these areas because success is almost guaranteed on some trophy quality animals.
If a unit is an area defined by boundaries, Boundaries which were established to reflect the present of large trophies under restricted access. Then are these boundaries really that much different than a large HF boundary
In closing I have a friend who drew a Bighorn tag. He could see the rams from the back porch of his cabin. Opening morning he made a stalk on the ram. Bow hunting he shot high. The ram trotted over the hill. He made another stalk. This time he hit the ram squarely in the horn. The ram was now easy to spot he had an arrow sticking out of his horn. He knew this was the rams home range. So the next morning he sat in the same place he spotted the ram the first morning. Here he came and the arrow found the right spot this time... 3 shots at a B&C trophy all within a 1/2 mile radius. He said to me everyone in town put in for that tag because the ram stayed in the same small area all the time. They were not wild because hunting pressure is so restricted the sheep have little fear of man.
Restricted unit formed by boundaries, boundaries established by Fish & Game to insure productive successful hunts.
If one day you decide to climb down off your high horse and admit not all that the black is dirty and all that is white is clean you will probably find solution and respect among numbers.
If not enjoy the ride and say hi to Alice.
Posted By: titan2232
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 10:05 AM
I'm sure one has been done before, but a poll would be interesting on LF/HF.
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 12:18 PM
Who cares? I can't believe grown arse men have been bickering all day about this crap. Hunt the way you want to hunt and be happy for whoever hunted what if they are why are you passing judgement hell I could careless what you think??? What does it matter as long as the Hunter is happy?
Yes Sir, 99.9% of most of us have those thoughts but the few Cancereous Cells or Chest Thumpers that think they are superior in thought
Posted By: therancher
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 01:02 PM
Tye that is one beautiful buck! You guys are doing it right! It's a shame that other greedy folks give the good honest folk a bad name. I know you said he gets a pass but good luck to you on that! I would shat myself if he walked out in front of me!
While I support Tye and actually run my high fenced ranches the same way, I find it pretty strange that you imply they are "good and honest" and others who are doing it a different legal way are not.
Posted By: doogie
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 01:27 PM
I agree with John on this one.
I may have no stomach for it but I'm all for capitalism and can't blame the high fence owners for earning some money.
I do think its ridiculous when these "hunters" get driven to a blind, sit for an hour, shoot a record buck, hang it on the wall and brag how they are a "Great Hunter".
Haha did NP really complain that a hf 170 diminishes the guy who shot a 170 inch deer on a low fence? That's a pretty pathetic statement, if you let what someone else does affect you like that then there are bigger issues. If hunting for you is all about why yours is better than someone else's then I think that's a bigger problem than a high fence.
That's a pretty funny take coming from a HF guy,
since about 95+% of the HF places exist so someone can put a big head on the wall to puff himself up about it. And then bring HF threads up constantly on places like this looking for validation because it's all the same. (Ain't it??? Is it?? Tell me it is boys??)
Which is exactly how this thread got started.
Like I said, it's all Alice in Wonderland up in here.
You are right this is Alice in Wonderland and you are the Mat Hatter. If anyone has a "Big Head" to "Puff Himself Up" that would be you. In this case " Area Size does Matter"
If you really believe your statement then the same can be said for your Arizona introduced, well managed, restricted mountain range unit area Sheep tags....They Exists so some hunter can post on THF and say "Look at me". Big Head... Puff himself up...
Even as an attorney you know nothing is certain or be as it seems. You never lump all rich people into crooks, not all attorney's are good, not all cooks can serve great meals. Therefore not all HF can be the same. "Once again Size of Area does Matter"
But somehow you with one brush stroke place all HF hunters into babies needing attention and all HF ranches into feed bucket shooting. You will never make any headway until you find a middle ground or further your agenda without understanding not everything is Black & White.
I know because I have hunted North America sheep, goats,moose, caribou,elk, mule deer, mountain lion, bears, muskox, pronghorn, whitetail, buffalo, African lion,Kudu, Eland, numerous plains game, exotics like Axis, Mouflon, blackbuck, Stag, fallow, sheep.... And I have had quality hunting experiences in all areas.
Probably our largest difference is your entire agenda is backed by HF no matter the size is a pen, period. I keep my dog in a pen. my cattle in a pasture and my whitetail within a well managed ranch they call home.
Yet you will never admit a sheep tag drawn for a restricted unit has already been defined as knowing full well the trophy rams are their within a unit.
Preference points get you into the restricted, best managed hunting locations. Hunters work hard for these areas because success is almost guaranteed on some trophy quality animals.
If a unit is an area defined by boundaries, Boundaries which were established to reflect the present of large trophies under restricted access. Then are these boundaries really that much different than a large HF boundary
In closing I have a friend who drew a Bighorn tag. He could see the rams from the back porch of his cabin. Opening morning he made a stalk on the ram. Bow hunting he shot high. The ram trotted over the hill. He made another stalk. This time he hit the ram squarely in the horn. The ram was now easy to spot he had an arrow sticking out of his horn. He knew this was the rams home range. So the next morning he sat in the same place he spotted the ram the first morning. Here he came and the arrow found the right spot this time... 3 shots at a B&C trophy all within a 1/2 mile radius. He said to me everyone in town put in for that tag because the ram stayed in the same small area all the time. They were not wild because hunting pressure is so restricted the sheep have little fear of man.
Restricted unit formed by boundaries, boundaries established by Fish & Game to insure productive successful hunts.
If one day you decide to climb down off your high horse and admit no all that the black is dirty and all that is white is clean you will probably find solution and respect among numbers.
If not enjoy the ride and say hi to Alice.
Since all your accusations about me and others who have sheep hunted on here are lies, you hold no credibiltiy. Find a post where it was all about size of an animal on here for me. Where I thumped my chest about an animal I have taken at the expense of others. Where the focus was on the animal and not the hunt. Find it. Post it. I didn't even mention the score of the ram I killed until someone asked about it. It wasn't a record book ram anyway, and one of the first things I said was score/size didn't matter
Again, like others, you have to make up your own facts in order to wrongly accuse others of things that are simply not true so you can make an argument. A false argument.
This is Fruedian. You know what I am saying. You know it is true. You cannot deny it. So the only way out is to say "Yeah, but you do it too." But that can't be done without sacrificing the truth in the process. Making it up. So that's what is done. Ask Rob about his hunt and his easy it was to kill a sheep.
It is also telling that so many accuse me of getting personal/being derogatory towards others, when, for many, the first thing brought up is something directed at me personally. Not the subject at hand. For example, there has been more talk/dissing of the sheep hunt I took on HF threads than anywhere else - when it has nothing to do with the subject of HF.
Like I said, Alice in Wonderland.
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 03:30 PM
Hell I just want to see the ram I missed
There where several demeaning comments by a few individuals, ironically all HF haters, that would be an agenda.....demean people so they don't post.... My comment covered multiple people. But after further review.....
Again it wasn't a HF LF debate. It was his story of his hunt, him telling everyone about his hunt.. Plain as day!!!! For the record I can't see why he would post again after such a comment. You're Special kind of person NP, no body owes him an apology for demeaning his hunt or animal...he brought it on himself... As I said special kind of person NP. Reading that make you proud? He never asked a question... Straight up posted his hunt and experience but you already now that, and as you always do in fashion you are a donkey and demean others hunts because it's no your way of doing things.
Read away. Atleast own it.
Nothing worse then someone that refuses to own up to their demeaning comments. Wonderland.. Lol
There where several demeaning comments by a few individuals, ironically all HF haters, that would be an agenda.....demean people so they don't post.... My comment covered multiple people. But after further review.....
Again it wasn't a HF LF debate. It was his story of his hunt, him telling everyone about his hunt.. Plain as day!!!! For the record I can't see why he would post again after such a comment. You're Special kind of person NP, no body owes him an apology for demeaning his hunt or animal...he brought it on himself... As I said special kind of person NP. Reading that make you proud? He never asked a question... Straight up posted his hunt and experience but you already now that, and as you always do in fashion you are a donkey and demean others hunts because it's no your way of doing things.
Read away. Atleast own it.
Nothing worse then someone that refuses to own up to their demeaning comments. Wonderland.. Lol
I own it 100%. Not a dang thing demeaning about it - except in your mind.
It's funny/speaks volumes that you see that as somehow demeaning - while stuff like "cancerous cells", "chest-thumpers", and straight up personal "call outs" and attacks are okey dokey mighty fine.
Apparently your high horse is blind in one eye.
Alice in Wonderland.
Posted By: don k
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 04:15 PM
Not to get you fellas off track, but what about shooting Does in a HF?
[quote=Nogalus Prairie]
And it's not really about the guy who killed the 250" - it's about the guy who killed the 170 free range and fair chase. It diminishes his accomplishment to act like it's all the same. I think hard effort and skill should be admired - and shortcuts taken just to put a head on the wall should be called what they are.
After all, truth is truth. Why should it not be discussed?
(For the record, I have never killed a record book deer, nor am I ever likely to. It's not about me.)
In this quote you are saying that it's all about comparing size of animals you kill and how one should be more important than another and hold more value. One diminishes another. As in one you should feel more proud of. Chest thump.
Posted By: LuckyHunter
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 04:32 PM
NP,
Once again you dodged every part of my post. It's clear if anyone brings up your sheep you mount your high horse as a purest. You should be proud of your ram, we don't get along but I posted a "Congratulations" when you made your original post. However I to have hunted sheep and I know the dedication and hard work it takes. It is a true test both physically and mentally. You also know there are short cuts.
But to say one cannot have a "hunt" on Hf is only chest thumping without merit. I know a challenge and hunting for 12 days by myself , beginning at day light spot and stalking till noon. Lunch, then hunting until dark everyday for 12 days until a ram worthy of the hunt is taken "is a hunt". Durning the 12 days I saw only 5 rams. Then again I do research and choose my hunts carefully.
Have a blessed day in your world Alice, and remember I don't lump your ram into the $500,000 guaranteed governors tags so don't lump all HF into easy picking. Yes, it exist,in both worlds such as LF guaranteed monster bulls in New Mexico.
I'll wish you good luck and a great hunt on your next adventure.
Posted By: TonyinVA
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 05:53 PM
Not to get you fellas off track, but what about shooting Does in a HF?
Those that have no issue with HF should have no issue shooting does or bucks behind a HF. Those that oppose HF will likely have an issue shooting a doe or any animal in a HF.
The argument is all about the fence.... regardless if it's there to keep animals in or keep animals out.
Hunting is a business and outfitters make money by booking hunters and success on the hunt typically drives more business. You can increase success on a LF ranch by managing the herd, the habitat, age structure, population control,supplemental feeding, hunting pressure, etc. You can also do a HF, and within "HF" have a variety of approaches. These can range from large acreages, native deer, supplemental feeding, habitat management, age management. etc. Or you can have a smaller acreage, stock it with "stocker bucks" from a breeding operation and do a "put and take" approach. There are other variations of each but we cannot list them all..but you get the overall idea.
All these business models work....and each will attract their own type of consumer. And the consumer ultimately has the choice of were to hunt. It's simple supply and demand.
They are all different....they will all have their own market share.... and they are all legal. We can all have an opinion on the difficulty of each approach, but in the end individual consumer get's what he wants and that's why they exist. It's a business.
I think it's a mistake to use one bad HF to imply all HF operations are "shoots not hunts" just as it's a mistake to try and justify using a good HF (I am sure NP may think that there is no such place), to justify all HF is challenging. But I would argue that many HF ranches can provide a challenging hunt.
So my view is much like SheepHunters, do your research and decide if the hunt is going to make you happy (that's both the trophy potential and the experience you get for the price of the hunt)...and if so book it.
Whatever you say Bobo. You really need to tell all those idiots to quit wasting their money on those fences.
Using the term "idiots" seems to be calling anyone out that does not share your views...
There where several demeaning comments by a few individuals, ironically all HF haters, that would be an agenda.....demean people so they don't post.... My comment covered multiple people. But after further review.....
Again it wasn't a HF LF debate. It was his story of his hunt, him telling everyone about his hunt.. Plain as day!!!! For the record I can't see why he would post again after such a comment. You're Special kind of person NP, no body owes him an apology for demeaning his hunt or animal...he brought it on himself... As I said special kind of person NP. Reading that make you proud? He never asked a question... Straight up posted his hunt and experience but you already now that, and as you always do in fashion you are a donkey and demean others hunts because it's no your way of doing things.
Read away. Atleast own it.
Nothing worse then someone that refuses to own up to their demeaning comments. Wonderland.. Lol
I own it 100%. Not a dang thing demeaning about it - except in your mind.
It's funny/speaks volumes that you see that as somehow demeaning - while stuff like "cancerous cells", "chest-thumpers", and straight up personal "call outs" and attacks are okey dokey mighty fine.
Apparently your high horse is blind in one eye.
Alice in Wonderland.
You honestly think that was appropriate.. He didn't ask a question NP, you know he didn't ask a question. He told his story and you make a Chicken crap comment. You're right no body owes him an apology for making crappy comments about his proud hunt. And he brought it on his self. SMDH
Like I said you're some kind of special. His bull bigger then yours? Is that what it is? God knows what it takes for some one to be such an arse and so petty to a fellow Hunter.
Posted By: Phantom
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 06:31 PM
I put up a hf place because my neighbor has a bunch of lease hunters. I got tired of feeding and letting deer grow up and then my neighbors lease hunters shooting them. I dont sell hunts on my property never will. I can tell you that I am happy I did the fence.
[quote=Nogalus Prairie]
And it's not really about the guy who killed the 250" - it's about the guy who killed the 170 free range and fair chase. It diminishes his accomplishment to act like it's all the same. I think hard effort and skill should be admired - and shortcuts taken just to put a head on the wall should be called what they are.
After all, truth is truth. Why should it not be discussed?
(For the record, I have never killed a record book deer, nor am I ever likely to. It's not about me.)
In this quote you are saying that it's all about comparing size of animals you kill and how one should be more important than another and hold more value. One diminishes another. As in one you should feel more proud of. Chest thump.
Well that explains why he makes crappy post in a guy's thread in which the guy is proudly telling everyone about his elk hunt.
I put up a hf place because my neighbor has a bunch of lease hunters. I got tired of feeding and letting deer grow up and then my neighbors lease hunters shooting them. I dont sell hunts on my property never will. I can tell you that I am happy I did the fence.
Same here.
And contrary to some anti-HF beliefs, we didn't do it to make hunting easier. Matter of fact the exact opposite happened, it is harder.
Posted By: 1860.colt
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 06:40 PM
year after year its HF, LF, this thread is 14 pages... Started thread
Deer vs hogs & 11 views it goes inta lock down...
Posted By: Creekrunner
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 06:44 PM
Bitching/poaching/rude neighbors. "Exchange students" from the south. All kinds of reasons besides "put and take".
So many negative waves in here:
Posted By: Western
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 06:46 PM
Yep CR, seen lesser threads get the "lock"
Posted By: SniperRAB
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 07:12 PM
Yep CR, seen lesser threads get the "lock"
True Colors being shown, Nothing Wrong with that...
It's truly a Shame a Gentleman Harvests a Animal and someone degrades his Hunt
Can't wait to see the Gentlemans Mount
Posted By: Western
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 07:13 PM
He will need a lot of room for that big bull!
Posted By: texassippi
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 07:39 PM
I put up a hf place because my neighbor has a bunch of lease hunters. I got tired of feeding and letting deer grow up and then my neighbors lease hunters shooting them. I dont sell hunts on my property never will. I can tell you that I am happy I did the fence.
Same here.
And contrary to some anti-HF beliefs, we didn't do it to make hunting easier. Matter of fact the exact opposite happened, it is harder.
this is a genuine question. how has it made it more difficult?
I put up a hf place because my neighbor has a bunch of lease hunters. I got tired of feeding and letting deer grow up and then my neighbors lease hunters shooting them. I dont sell hunts on my property never will. I can tell you that I am happy I did the fence.
Same here.
And contrary to some anti-HF beliefs, we didn't do it to make hunting easier. Matter of fact the exact opposite happened, it is harder.
this is a genuine question. how has it made it more difficult?
It can be both. You're harvest critira become much more strict. Many times you specifically targeting one deer. Or a class of deer. Each property is different LF or high fence. A 3k LF lease on the King isn't the same as a 3k LF lease in the hill country nor the pahandle. Same goes for HF places. Ranch LF or HF is going to be harder if it gets more pressure then it's equal with much lower pressure. Same can be said about a HF ranch vs LF ranch. LF ranch with very little pressure would be easier then a HF ranch with lots of pressure.
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 07:55 PM
I put up a hf place because my neighbor has a bunch of lease hunters. I got tired of feeding and letting deer grow up and then my neighbors lease hunters shooting them. I dont sell hunts on my property never will. I can tell you that I am happy I did the fence.
Same here.
And contrary to some anti-HF beliefs, we didn't do it to make hunting easier. Matter of fact the exact opposite happened, it is harder.
this is a genuine question. how has it made it more difficult?
HF placed will have more mature deer running around. The older the deer, the smarter it is. Before we HFed, wind direction didn't matter. We could have the wind blowing right to the feeder/food plot and the deer didn't care. Now, you won't even see a deer if the wind is swirling.
I put up a hf place because my neighbor has a bunch of lease hunters. I got tired of feeding and letting deer grow up and then my neighbors lease hunters shooting them. I dont sell hunts on my property never will. I can tell you that I am happy I did the fence.
Same here.
And contrary to some anti-HF beliefs, we didn't do it to make hunting easier. Matter of fact the exact opposite happened, it is harder.
this is a genuine question. how has it made it more difficult?
For us, the deer got smart. I can walk off on the LF place and be 75-100 yards from a feeder while working on a blind and the deer don't care. That would never happen on the HF.
I think hunting pressure has made it tougher. We keep a handful of axis and black buck around so hunting happens in the off season, so the deer have been educated to hunting. (Bobo mentioned this too)
Maybe feed habits. The HFers have protein, blocks, minerals, water and foot plots, they are not driven by their stomachs. A feeder going off is no guarantee, but on the LF when a feeder goes off we will have a crowd waiting on it.
If I have a buck on one of our LF cameras, we just show up the first day of archery and shoot him. On the HF it has never been quite that easy. We have some deer that are so wily that they even dodge trail cameras. We only know that they exist because of the few times a year that they slip up and pose for a game cam. We have an 8 year old that I have been hunting since he was 5, no human has ever seen him.
Like Tye said, maybe the higher percentage of mature deer has something to do with it.
To me if a HF place is 500 acres and has 70 deer, it would be more difficult to hunt than walking out onto a LF that is 500 acres and also has 70 deer.
Posted By: Phantom
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 09:04 PM
For me the fence was in direct response to lease hunters that were not mature enough to let a young deer walk. I know my neighbor and he just cares about the money he receives. I care about the deer. I still hunt south texas and mexico low fence ranches and I can tell very little difference because the hunting pressure is about the same. I run 10 cameras all year and I know most every doe and buck on my property. I also now buy a few deer every year to improve my deer and keep genetic diversity. If I shoot a deer on my property or one in Mexico how is the mexico one more valuable? I think the one I watched for 6 years and feed is of greater value to me.
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 09:33 PM
I do think its ridiculous when these "hunters" get driven to a blind, sit for an hour, shoot a record buck, hang it on the wall and brag how they are a "Great Hunter".
why do you care what he brags about? do you guys argue like this with the guy that says after installing his K&N and flowmasters his MPG and horsepower increased by 25%? or the guy at the office that says he ran a 4.35 in high school? or the guy at the gym that says he benches 400?
there are always going to be "those guys" that brag and think their achievements are better than everyone elses, where its causing a problem here is there are some whose EGOS wont allow them to brush it off.
and to a point the passion is admirable, and with a few I think it is a lot deeper than ego, but in general, NP even said it, these guys don't like some 250" HF freak being compared to their 150" LF buck, when it actually makes them madder knowing the hunter that killed the 250" HF freak may be seen as a better hunter than them...
go cowboys
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 10:54 PM
Smh. Can someone post pics of NP's ram lol
Smh. Can someone post pics of NP's ram lol
What's that all about?
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 11:02 PM
I didn't see it?
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 11:03 PM
I don't give two craps about yalls discussion I just wanted to see pics of the ram you killed. Why you so defensive?
My ram doesn't have anything to do with anything. Please don't get off topic again, I'm reading and learning.
So far, I've learned that, simply by putting up the HF:
1)It makes the deer smarter; and
2)It makes them suddenly pay attention to the wind/wary of human smell (because free-range deer don't care about the wind/human smell).
Dang, I knew they put them up for some reason. But I had no idea they were magic. Amazing stuff one can learn on here.
Posted By: Wilhunt
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 11:23 PM
Depends on the size of each place.
Depends on the size of each place.
Yeah, I'm also learning that the smaller the HF place, the smarter it makes the deer.
Heck, get it down to an acre or two and them suckers will be invisible.
Posted By: texassippi
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 11:32 PM
I put up a hf place because my neighbor has a bunch of lease hunters. I got tired of feeding and letting deer grow up and then my neighbors lease hunters shooting them. I dont sell hunts on my property never will. I can tell you that I am happy I did the fence.
Same here.
And contrary to some anti-HF beliefs, we didn't do it to make hunting easier. Matter of fact the exact opposite happened, it is harder.
this is a genuine question. how has it made it more difficult?
For us, the deer got smart. I can walk off on the LF place and be 75-100 yards from a feeder while working on a blind and the deer don't care. That would never happen on the HF.
I think hunting pressure has made it tougher. We keep a handful of axis and black buck around so hunting happens in the off season, so the deer have been educated to hunting. (Bobo mentioned this too)
Maybe feed habits. The HFers have protein, blocks, minerals, water and foot plots, they are not driven by their stomachs. A feeder going off is no guarantee, but on the LF when a feeder goes off we will have a crowd waiting on it.
If I have a buck on one of our LF cameras, we just show up the first day of archery and shoot him. On the HF it has never been quite that easy. We have some deer that are so wily that they even dodge trail cameras. We only know that they exist because of the few times a year that they slip up and pose for a game cam. We have an 8 year old that I have been hunting since he was 5, no human has ever seen him.
Like Tye said, maybe the higher percentage of mature deer has something to do with it.
To me if a HF place is 500 acres and has 70 deer, it would be more difficult to hunt than walking out onto a LF that is 500 acres and also has 70 deer.
that is pretty interesting and makes good sense. i've hunted my whole life, never high fence, but i don't have a problem with high fence whatsoever, to each their own IMO. this whole debate is pretty interesting and i was really just curious as to how it changed your particular situation. thanks for a legitimate and thorough response. i always like to hear what people have to say and why they feel that way about this topic, and pick people brains on both sides of the fence, probably to the extent of an over eager child haha
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/13/15 11:48 PM
My ram doesn't have anything to do with anything. Please don't get off topic again, I'm reading and learning.
So far, I've learned that, simply by putting up the HF:
1)It makes the deer smarter; and
2)It makes them suddenly pay attention to the wind/wary of human smell (because free-range deer don't care about the wind/human smell).
Dang, I knew they put them up for some reason. But I had no idea they were magic. Amazing stuff one can learn on here.
Where is link to the pics of the ram? Geez I know you are proud of it it. Damn
I'll PM you a photo or two. Not a problem.
Posted By: Wilhunt
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/14/15 12:01 AM
If one says all HF hunts are easier than all LF hunts, that can certainly be fairly characterized an over-generalization.
If one says the vast majority of HF hunts are easier than the vast majority of LF hunts, that is not an over-generalization. That is simply a fact that only folks in total denial would dispute.
That's why using the examples of "easy" LF hunts to compare them to examples of "hard" HF hunts is not persuasive and is, in fact, disingenuous. Why? Because they are not the norm since they are extreme examples on the far end of the spectrum for each. On your HF ram hunt, you were hunting one particular animal. Not quite a fair basis for comparison to LF hunting in general - and certainly not the norm for most HF hunting.
And one thing that the HF always does is this: it keeps the animals within the confines of the fence. They are in those confines today. And they will remain there tomorrow, and the next day, and all season long. That certainty is never there without the HF. That's the game changer. And that is not a generalization. It's a fact.
The fence is there for a reason.
Well said.
Posted By: BMD
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/14/15 12:06 AM
I'll PM you a photo or two. Not a problem.
Posted By: Wilhunt
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/14/15 12:09 AM
I have only read some of these posts, but I don't like HF mainly for selfish reasons. They limit the possible number of quality deer available to me to hunt in some cases. But, it is hard to tell a man who owns the property he cannot do what is necessary to realize maximum profit with his land.
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/14/15 12:09 AM
My ram doesn't have anything to do with anything. Please don't get off topic again, I'm reading and learning.
So far, I've learned that, simply by putting up the HF:
1)It makes the deer smarter; and
2)It makes them suddenly pay attention to the wind/wary of human smell (because free-range deer don't care about the wind/human smell).
Dang, I knew they put them up for some reason. But I had no idea they were magic. Amazing stuff one can learn on here.
We put ours up because our neighbors shot anything that moves. Legally, they could do that. We wanted our bucks to reach maturity. So, the fence went up. And the deer instantly became tame just because a tall fence was erected.
SMH Truth hurts doesn't it. Forgot to add that we bought the place in 1989 and hunted low fence until 1995. So I have experience with how the ranch/deer were prior to the fence and after. Do you have any?
Are the Bucks bigger on my place compared to my neighbors????more than likely. The average age outside of the fence is maybe 2.5-3.5 compared to ours which is 4.5 Is a mature buck harder to kill than a young and dumb one? Yep, the fence height has nothing to do with it.
Posted By: Tye
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/14/15 12:12 AM
I have only read some of these posts, but I don't like HF mainly for selfish reasons. They limit the possible number of quality deer available to me to hunt in some cases. But, it is hard to tell a man who owns the property he cannot do what is necessary to realize maximum profit with his land.
Seems to me that the HF ranch hunts the deer within the fence(that you don't have access to) and you are hunting deer on the outside that he can't shoot.
Posted By: jshouse
Re: HF or LF ? - 09/14/15 12:21 AM
My ram doesn't have anything to do with anything. Please don't get off topic again, I'm reading and learning.
So far, I've learned that, simply by putting up the HF:
1)It makes the deer smarter; and
2)It makes them suddenly pay attention to the wind/wary of human smell (because free-range deer don't care about the wind/human smell).
Dang, I knew they put them up for some reason. But I had no idea they were magic. Amazing stuff one can learn on here.
Where is link to the pics of the ram? Geez I know you are proud of it it. Damn
testy testy