"magic" feed - opinions

Many of you know of the recent promotion of a protein feed with claims it will add 30-40 inches to your deer in a year. I am not saying it is possible or not but it is being heavily promoted and sold and is significantly more costly than most other feeds - my question is how can it really be measured as to its success? Unless a ranch has pictures of most of its bucks to compare horn growth from year to year how can it be determined if it really is that superior to other feeds?

There are also so many other factors that affect horn growth - rainfall, water availability, etc. I guess one way to measure it would be in a controlled, high fenced, pen setting where one feed was provided to captured bucks and a different feed provided to other bucks in a different pen and then see what the results are.

If you compare the actual ingredients in this feed to others there does not appear to be much difference - it is higher in some areas but lower in others. In addition, I believe it contains peanuts/cottonseed which must be tested for toxins that can cause herd issues.

I am always skeptical of anything that is the latest and greatest miracle - but this may be the real deal - I am still on the fence.

What are the thoughts?

Kind of one of those if sounds too good to be true it probably isn't. You could say the same about any protein feed and how would you prove or disprove the claim.

Originally Posted By: tlk

Many of you know of the recent promotion of a protein feed with claims it will add 30-40 inches to your deer in a year. I am not saying it is possible or not but it is being heavily promoted and sold and is significantly more costly than most other feeds - [b][b]my question is how can it really be measured as to its success? Unless a ranch has pictures of most of its bucks to compare horn growth from year to year [/b]how can it be determined if it really is that superior to other feeds?

There are also so many other factors that affect horn growth - rainfall, water availability, etc. I guess one way to measure it would be in a controlled, high fenced, pen setting where one feed was provided to captured bucks and a different feed provided to other bucks in a different pen and then see what the results are.

If you compare the actual ingredients in this feed to others there does not appear to be much difference - it is higher in some areas but lower in others. In addition, I believe it contains peanuts/cottonseed which must be tested for toxins that can cause herd issues.

I am always skeptical of anything that is the latest and greatest miracle - but this may be the real deal - I am still on the fence.

What are the thoughts?

They do have multiple years of photos of the same bucks. I know this because I took many of them. They also allow most deer to reach maturity. I'm not talking about 4.5 to 5.5 years old but 8.9 or 10 years old before they are harvested or simply die of old age. I'm not in the feed business and I don't care what anyone feeds their deer but I can tell you the before and after photos you see posted of the deer are the real thing!
[/b]

3rd try... Key word claims .. A lot depends on health of deer coming out of rut & winter age, & genes. Some like levis, i prefure wranglers... We had mild winter & plenty of rain... once deer hit peak weight rest of protien goes ta antler growth & weight gain for fawns... Whats the price on the magic feed ?

Not all feeds are created equal. You can not base success on one years growth to the next since no two deer are the same age two years in a row. You can relive a year. Testing two separate pens or pastures of deer is not going to work either. Just not going to get a true test with whitetail deer. There are no miracle feeds that have genetics on the label.
No two ranches will have the same genetics or the same habitat. Soil and plant communities change from ranch to ranch no matter what size the ranch is. Rainfall and time of rainfall is critical. Amount of forb growth is critical also.
What can help is to take browse samples from your ranch to see what your browse is lacking in. Browse diversity can vary greatly from ranch to ranch. One ranch might have many class 1 and 2 browse plants and the next one only a few. I was on a ranch yesterday helping with a browse survey. The ranch did not have the variety of class 1 and 2 plants you would expect for South Texas. Some were in large quantities and others in very low amounts. The terrain varied from river bottom to gravely soils. The cover and canopy went from dense to somewhat open. Samples were taken to see what was lacking in those plants that could be added into their feed for that ranch.
A whitetail hardened antler is 44% protein, 22% calcium and 11% phosphorous. Those numbers have to come from somewhere- soil, browse, forbes, water, their body or a supplement. Ratios and sources of these minerals is very critical.
Feed labels may appear to be the same but that is not always true. Sources of proteins can vary greatly. Some feeds only use a couple of protein sources while other use 10 or more. Some protein sources are easier to digest and others not so easy. If your feed has the later then what benefit is that feed to your deer? Mineral/trace minerals sources should match the needs of your ranch. The ratio and types of the minerals/trace minerals is even more important to your ranch.
Rumen health is very important also. If you are driving your vehicle then you are putting constant pressure on the fuel pedal, if you let up the vehicle slows or stops when you apply the brake. The rumen on a deer is the same way when he is eating he is putting nutrients into his digestive system. If his rumen is not healthy due to something he ate, then he is not eating. If he is not eating then he is not feeding his body and antlers. The large and small intestines are where those nutrients are absorbed into the bucks system and to his antlers. If not, then those nutrients flow out the rear end. When you have an upset stomach do you eat as much?
Also many are now going to more feed stations and more feeders per station. They are wanting 6-8 deer per feeder and up to 3 feeders per station depending on amount of deer. Shade or closeness of the station to shade is also now be shown to be important. Water or how close the station is to water is very important. A recent study was done with bucks to see how important feed, water and shade were to each other as far as utilization of all. The study area that the deer had to walk a distance from shade, to feed then a distance to water had the lowest intake of water and protein consumption. The highest was with feed and water both in the shade. There was a 21% and 29% less of water/feed consumed when the animal had to leave shade to eat or drink. Bottom line is they ate and drank less when it was out of their comfort zone.

What we try to do for a deer herd is to have the best density, age structure, habitat, water availability, protein supplement, food plot system and/or mineral supplement we can afford to offer them. The deer herd then has to do what they can with those that are available. We are trying get them to show us their genetic potential every year. Every bite they take should be a step in that direction.

I do not doubt the quality of the deer - but it is my understanding this feed was only started after the end of the previous season so the deer essentially only had a few months on it before horn growth began. Can a feed be responsible for 30-40 inches of horn growth in that short a time frame? Again - don't know the answer - just curious

No way can it contribute that much first year.



Unless you where on year five of a fiver drought and that's all they had to eat. In that case they didn't grow that much, they just caught up.

Most new feed programs benefit the babies the most, because they grow up with it, there for hit it more.

All I can tell is the body weights and added inches on the racks last year were incredible. The deer were as heavy as I've ever seen. If any deer has that much fat stored in their body I've got to believe they are going to grow their racks to their max potential no matter where they are.

What was the rain fall last year compared to last four

Wet Spring

Good Horn...

What was the grazing pressure from livestock like? Did they do any prescribed burns? What was the water situation like? Did they add more feeders?

Very true!!!

Rain fall was below what is determined to be average year. Total for the year was 9". No changes in livestock and no prescribed burns allowed because of oil field production. Water situation is normal for the ranch. Plenty of water available. Feed was started in January 2013.

When rainfall fell is more critical than the amount. It could have rained 20" all year and it all fell from Jan till May. That will make a huge difference.

Rain fall was below what is determined to be average year. No changes in livestock and no prescribed burns allowed because of oil field production. Water situation is normal for the ranch. Plenty of water available. [/quote]
When rainfall fell is more critical than the amount. It could have rained 20" all year and it all fell from Jan till May. That will make a huge difference. [/quote]

Agreed, It's hard to beat a wet May and June

Guys I really couldn't care less what anyone feeds their wildlife or their livestock either for that matter but I know what I witnessed with my own eyes from one year to the next!

When rainfall fell is more critical than the amount. It could have rained 20" all year and it all fell from Jan till May. That will make a huge difference. [/quote]

Agreed, It's hard to beat a wet May and June[/quote]
No rain in those months is to late IME. A wet March and April are key to big deer in South Texas.

tis cattle ranching 101... put cattle in pasture, whin ready ta sell put in corral fatten em up... Did better in Ag than English... Some pastures 1 cow ta every 1 acrer, different pasture it takes 2 acrer's...

Really the only way to prove something like this is to use penned deer from similar genetics same age in side by side pens.

If it really is making a 30-40" difference they claim, you'll see enough of a difference in the pen that is fed that feed.

No way that you would be able to prove that claim scientifically on pasture deer.

On stuff like this I like to ride behind the wave. Stick to what works and let others prove or disprove it.

Not questioning what you saw whatsoever. But I am questioning that it was a direct result of changing from one feed to another. Again not saying it could not happen - just asking how the claim is proven? And especially in that short of a time frame. I am totally open to hear the facts - I am just not sure how or if it can be factually proven?

I don't know whether the feed can be given all the credit here. This ranch in question is definitely an extreme example of management. They have many variables working in their favor: incredible age structure, optimum herd density, bucks that have been used to eating protein since birth, lots and lots of protein feeders, high % protein native browse, controlled predators, etc. Many elements working in their favor beyond feed. This ranch has been producing awesome deer for years.

Now, is the feed going to take them even further? Maybe. But, I would challenge the notion that you are going to start feeding this feed at a ranch that is just getting started and see anything close to those types of gains.

ElkHunter49 has taken some great pictures out there, always enjoy them.

I have never found a true "magic bean", I have seen a lot of clever marketing.

Was at walmart seen the gal jug of Roasted Corn Freaks ... It claims ta be a supercharged deet attractant. Hogs travel the creek, not inta the corn mixed diesel route.. So figured would try mixing with corn, it has a light oder, & shouldn't hurt deer... Have tried several way's, got a drip going were deer can walk up ta it an lick bottem, so far plain old corn works best.. Also tried the cornhole buried it first, ants found it so hung it, bees & wasps... Also the poppers took top off pringles can for them ta sit, drilled hole in middle of popper, & center of lid glued q-tip ta hold popper.. So far nothing impressive... Theirs lots of claims.. Some claim i'm ask the doctors 2outa3 disagree...

I think there is a way to "prove" the feed contributes that much. STOP using it and see what happens. If a deer adds "30 or 40" inches in one year because of the magic feed - then stop using it and see what happens the next year. If the deer doesn't add anything or better yet - DROPS inches, then it would be very interesting. But if he continues add, then scream BS and walk away.

There is no genetics in a bag - you can't add 30" to a deer that doesn't have the genetics to produce it - no matter what you feed him. And a deer who has the potential to add 30" in a year could probably add a lot of that if nothing really special was done (simple protein, mineral, water).

In my simple mind, rather than looking at the horns - I would look at body weight and muscular development. If the deer is packing on the weight and lean muscle mass, then I betcha he's going to be growing the best horns he is able to grow.

But if you want to believe there is some magic feed that can grow 30-40" of antler where your regular balance feed can't - then by all means believe it. You can order Extenze too while you're at it!

The stuff works great for hair growth as well, Check out the pork chops on young "Elvis"

I agree with the rest of what you said but this part I disagree with. You can do this test with the same deer but you can not take a year off a deers age and let him relive that year again. Your test will not prove anything more than the deer had the feed then did not have the feed. All deer are now one year older that is all and they should get better. Habitat and rainfall play as much into the equations as do the genetics. Antlers are grown utilizing nutrients that the deer takes in, he builds a healthy body or skeletal structure first then any excess nutrients available go towards growing antlers or milk production.
Again antlers are 44% protein, 22% calcium and 11% phosphorous.

This feed is anise flavored/scented. I'm not aware of other traditional protein pellets that are favored like this. Could part of their claimed success be due to the fact that the deer are simply consuming more of it because they find more palatable?

That's why side by side similar genetic pens is really the only way to prove anything.

I don't post much but figured I would put in my 2 cents, since I hunt on the ranch in question. I have had the opportunity to go down and take pictures or varmint hunt the last 2 season. I had such a good time I became a lease member last year and had a great season on the ranch.
The deer definitely put on inches this year in many cases. I figured it would be easy to find a buck this year but with all the growth or potentially many deer got to walk. The amount of mature big bucks makes it hard to choose.
This feed has close to 1000#s per ton of cottonseed and peanuts and smells pretty tasty. The deer love the stuff and I have not seen any issues to the deer from it.
I know that the lease manger has spent many years trying many different things and feeds over the years here and has found a feed that has done more than any other one thing he has done in years past.
I am no biologist and don't claim to be but the deer on this place are doing tremendous.
The management plan, location, livestock pressure have been the same the last 3 plus years and this last year was awesome!
I do know this he would not feed something he did not believe was the best, it is just how he does things with what he is passionate about.

If you are talking about DD feed I have been feeding it for awhile now and it is making a difference. On the feed we were on before we would see about 20-25% increase per year were are more the 25-30% not inches. Yes it is more expensive but I believe it is worth it. But as it has been said before that is only one part of getting bigger deer. It's all the little things that add up to make it come together. We have at least 2-3 6 spouts each big horn feeders at each feed station. We have 17 feeders on 500ac they all have water beside them and letting them get some age before we decide what gets culled.

please explain what the 20-25% increase relates to? Body weight? Horns?

Native pasture deer or pen deer or released pen deer in the pasture? What are the age classes you are seeing these numbers on to start? Do you have a feed label? Thought this new feed just came out?

17 feeders on 500 acres.

Its alot like in sports... Body builder, athletes, inhancement suplements...

It's called Double Down feed we buy from there in Dilley where it is made. It has been around for a little while it is just starting to get some attention now. Our deer are mix of native with a few yearly pen raised bucks turn out every year. I try to start identifying bucks when they get their second set of horns and tracking them from then on. What I meant by 20-25% was mainly in horn growth that is only a average some do better some not as well of course there is some body weight that goes along with that increase. I do know when we switched over they quit hitting the protein feeders that had the other feed in it and were steady empting the ones with the DD. I'm not trying to push this feed. I think there are alot of other things that play into raising a big deer the other thing that I believe no matter what you do or feed only 2-3 out of 10 pasture deer are ever going to be great big deer 180+. and yes it is alot of feeders. I have watched a group of summer bucks come into eat and if there are not enough places the young bucks stand back and watch till the older deer are finished eating then they run up grab a few bites and take off down behind the older bucks only feeding for a few minutes so I try to allow them somewhere to eat as well.

I may be wrong but I believe the person promoting it for Dilley had a hand in coming up with the contents and he just started feeding it prior to last season - so I think it has only been available for a little over a year

You are correct it has been out there for a year give or take to the public. It is just started getting a lot of attention over the last 6 months or so. Like I said before I feel like feed is only one part of the answer. The ranch that is really behind push it has a lot of other good practice's in place that work for them as STXranchman said every ranch is different so what works for me may not work 5 miles down the road and I'm by no means claiming to know how to raise deer I'm just try to do the best I can with what little bit I have. My deer are by no means as big as some out there.

I don't believe there is a such thing as a 'magic feed' but I do believe there is a right feed for a particular property. If your supplementing, without doing an assessment of the native food availability, you can't be sure your supplement is correct. In that situation, if you switch from one supplement to another, you just might hit on the right supplement with the results looking miraculous. The thing is that your miracle feed for your area might not be a miracle feed 25 miles away. stxranchman posted the nutritional analysis for the feed used in the Kerr research project at one time, it's composition was different from most supplements. It was noticeably higher in phosphorus, phosphorus is also the most expensive mineral to add to feed.

Whats price $$$... Have used WildLife & few other for deer & elk... Healthy is always A+

I think price depends on whether it is bag or bulk and how much you get. It also depends on whether you get it from Dilley or another source. Call Jason at Dilley feed and grain

Last I saw it was around $500 per ton - not sure if that included delivery - I also think Dilley only has one truck to deliver in bulk so not sure what turn around time is for delivery. Most of the other feeds I see (Purina/L&E/Livengood/etc. are under $400 a ton delivered

I watched a HF go up on a buddy's place during the drought a few years back.
The first year increase in antler was huge, the 30-40 increase may have been possible there. The deer had to eat the protein, there was nothing else to eat, and the deer were a year older to add to the results.
If you put out a more desirable protein (smells and tastes better) that deer want to go eat more, you will have even better results.
There are ways to skew the results in your favor.

little over $10.00 for 50#... Trying them poppers they not poppen, Roasted Corn Freaks the gal jug & the brick type, nothings freaken, & that thar cornhole speaks for itself... Then again, location, location, location Best wishes...

Are you seeing this in all age classes from 1.5 up to mature? Are you seeing this 20-25% average growth every year across the board? What was your rainfall like each year from Jan till end of May since you started with this feed? Are slick 8 points growing the much every year from age 1.5 till mature? How many deer out of every fawn crop are growing more than your 20-25% average every year? Are you doing any culling, if so at what age do you start? Just hard to believe every buck is on average growing 20-25% per year. That would make every fawn born(using 70 as average at one year old) turn into buck 170+ or much larger at 6 with just a 20% growth on average(average of 174 gross at 6) and then even large if you use 25%(that would make your average buck over 210" at 6) . Lastly I am records on paper and visual kinda guy...so gotta see actual proof of your numbers Don't doubt your word but gotta show me the proof then I will be a believer. I can show bucks that were really nice bucks at 3 or 4 or 5 that grew 20-33% in the next year into bucks scoring 180-250 gross that were not raised on this magic feed, just a 20% pasture feed and food plots. But it won't be a whole ranch full that average 20-25% per year every year. Make me a believer.

So the feed is almost half cottonseed and peanuts, both have a calcium/phosphorus ratio of approx. 1/4 deer can utilize a ratio of between 4/1 and 1/2. I'm betting that the analysis for the feed is in the 1/1 to 1/2 range where most commercial feeds are at 2/1. If the native foods are phosphorus poor, like a lot of Texas, exacerbated by years of overgrazing, a high phosphorus supplement might just be what the doctor ordered.

huuuuh? Tis days like dis wish woudn't napped in english class

I am seeing reports from folks who started using this feed this year that it is breaking down in their feeders - any kind of moisture is apparently causing the feeders to clog up - this is coming from more than one user. If that is factual then that is a huge issue -

It's not English it's math, antlers are made up of 22% calcium and 11% phosphorus, or a 2 to 1 ratio. The mineral ratio in peanuts is .15% to .60%, or a 1 to 4 ratio of calcium to phosphorus, cottonseed is similar. If deer aren't getting the correct ratio of minerals from their natural forage, then a supplement that provides it is useful, if they eat enough. If half of the feed ingredients average out at a 1 to 4 ratio, it's likely that the mix has a ratio somewhere in the 1/1 to 1/2 range, because deer can only utilize it up to a 1/2 ratio.

STXranchman I was not claiming every buck to see that kind of growth but that is what I'm looking for. I do have alot of records I would be more then glad to share with you. As I said above I think only 2-3 out of every 10 have a chance of becoming a big deer 180+. I cull very very hard and it depneds on the year but if they do not have at leat 10 points as a 4 year old they are gone. I try to take a bottom percentage of almost all age class bucks from 3 on up. I can not afford to feed a bunch of deer so I rather have a few real nice bucks we wont have 10 bucks make it to 6.5 each year but the ones that do I'm proud of. Im by no means claiming to have your knowledge about raising deer I only know what has worked for us and I'm not saying there is not room for improvement. Our rain has been very spradic 6-12 inches over the last 3-5 year this year we are very good shape it seems like we have gotten rain about every week or so. We do not plant any food plots. I will post some pictures as soon as I can upload them this afternoon.

If deer are growing 20-25% per year on average then why did you kill any of those bucks last year if they grew that much? Why if your goal is to grow bigger deer that will bring more income. I mean if a 180+ buck grows 20-25% every year then he would be 215-225 buck this year and then a 260-270 buck next year and over 310-325" the next and then 380-400" the next. I mean with all these claims why would not someone feeding it want to wait if it is guarantee to take every single buck born on a ranch by age 8-10 to world record proportions. Making claims that every buck that eats this will grow 20-25% every year will not work just due to genetics and simple math. Every buck can not grow 20-25% every year if so then every 100" yearling would be 300"+ at 6 or 7 years old. Like I said I am a visual person so I will need pictures of every buck on your place from 2013 to last year 2014 so I can see that every deer on your place averaged 20-25% growth in one year. Why would you need to cull so hard if you are guaranteed 20-25% more growth next year. Where in the world right now you can you make 20-25% of an investment? If it is making one or two bucks per age class grow that much one year, then make that statement. Not that every deer is growing 20-25% on average every year. It would not be a wise investment to ever cull any buck at all under all these claims. If you are still culling bucks while feeding this feed then you are not averaging 20-25% growth every year. What you are saying is that you are averaging growth on the bucks you select to add in to inflate that average.

This raises another question for me. In a free range situation, deer ingest a pretty limited amount of supplemental feed during a typical day. I base this from thousands of trail camera pictures that are set to take a picture every five minutes. In most cases our pictures show that a deer is at the feeder five minutes or less. They may come in twice per day but typically just one time per day.

By comparison, a deer will ingest natural browse the rest of the day unless he is resting. Of course in drought conditions he may ingest less browse than normal but all in all, on average, my guess is a buck ingest 5-10% their nutrition from supplemental feed and the other 90-95% from natural browse.

So realistically how much impact can a feed have on horns and body weight if the feed accounts for such a low percentage of overall intake?

Feed intake varies from ranch to ranch based on a lot of variables. Many ranches have been adding multiple feeder per station for the last 15 years. I have a friend who will have 3 feeders at every location and a couple of stations will have more for 15 yrs now. He wants no more than 6-8 deer eating out of one feeder. The last ranch I was on had 2 feeders per station with 4-10 deer per feeder. I know of one ranch that has 2-3 feeders at each feed station on 11,000 acres. The amount of feeders they have is very high and the deer on that ranch eat more feed due to this than any of the other ranches in that area. Body condition on that ranch is better than those same ranches that have one feeder per station. Recent studies have shown that when you can put feed and water together in the same location consumption goes up. Add shade to cover both feed and to keep water cooler consumption of both is even higher. Take a year like this one and deer are going to eat preferred forb growth over pellets or browse. In my opinion the mineral/trace mineral/vitamin package in the feed is as important if not more than the types of protein sources in the feed. Cottonseed meal is one of the last things digested in the deer system and a lot of it can flow out the rear end unused if it is the major source of protein.

Tis good with math, tis the big fancy words... Lot of factors to be weighed in... Post was more of Inside joke.. It wasn't worth , i got cheap posts...

Interesting. First time I have heard or thought about number of feeders in a pen affecting consumption. Our pictures show our feeders are never really crowded. Usually a few does or a few bucks in the pen eating and then leaving. We feed around 150,000 lbs on 9,000 acres with around 25 feed pens - plus cottonseed stations all over the ranch. Browse is plentiful. So far this year the deer have hit the cottonseed way harder than the protein and we are not sure why.

So I wonder if multiple protein feeders in our situation would be an advantage?

As a side note we have plenty of water - ponds and pilas all over the ranch

To those that are pushing this product.

How many years of data do you have?
How many locations?
How many reps?
How many controls?
How many checks?

tlk; I'll take a guess at while your seeing greater cottonseed usage. If, a lot of your new growth is in phosphorus poor forage plants, they may be hitting the cottonseed to balance things out. I've checked the data sheets on a lot of those attractant feeds, one thing they have in common is, a calcium to phosphorus ratio in excess of 1/2. Cottonseed has a ratio of approx. 1/4. The only way to know for sure is to do a nutritional analysis of the natural food available.