Can you have a fair elk hunt on 10,000 acre high fence?

I don't want to turn this into a debate on the ethics of high fence hunting, I am just trying to get a realistic assessment of one of my elk hunting options for this coming season. I have hunted private land in NM the past 2 years and am the only 1 in my hunting circle that wants to bow hunt elk so I go alone each year and use an outfitter. I've seen lots of elk, but getting an ethical shot with a bow isn't easy and I can't do this forever. I'm getting old and elk hunting is expensive.

I came across an Idaho ranch/outfitter with 30,000 acres of which 10,000 is high fenced with a self propagating elk herd. It is mountain terrain hunting from a spike camp with access by horseback or ATV. It is not guaranteed and the only bad reviews I have found are from people who didn't get an elk. All have referenced the quality/challenge of the hunt and importance of making sure you were prepared for the physicality. Most said they would have never known they were in a high fence had they not known going in.

I am holding a spot after doing relentless research but I got to thinking about not wanting my first (and perhaps only) elk to be tainted. It doesn't bother me if I am getting access to bigger elk because of the high fence. But it does to think I might only get it because it was in a high fence. The price differential between high fence and private land is inconsequential. The success rate in fact is about the same - 80-90% with a rifle, considerably lower with a bow.

But here is the kicker that has me steering toward the high fence. It is a rifle or archery tag and meaning I could at some point in the hunt change from bow to rifle (not both simultaneously). Where I hunted the last 2 season in NM, they had about a 25% success rate for bowhunters and a 100% for rifle and this is on an 11,000 acre ranch in NM.

Just curious if anyone else has hunted a high fence ranch this big and just how fair chase it felt (not looking to start a debate). In my searches I found a local newspaper story about a hunter who had killed an elk on this ranch and I googled his name and actually found his number and called him. He said he got his elk on the 3rd day and after multiple unsuccessful spot and stalks. He said the only difference he noticed between other elk hunts was that there were a lot more elk with big antlers, but everything else was the same.

Would appreciate any input. I have to decide quickly.

Well I can tell you for a fact if you go hunt a 10K acre ranch in the Rockies you won't cover the whole thing during your hunt unless you are hunting safari style out of a vehicle. So I would say yes, it's as fair as any other hunt.

I would say it's probably going to be a pretty enlightening challenge.

I'd do it. I would also treat the off season the same as if it was a wilderness backpack hunt.

I agree that 10K acres is quite a bit of land and it will be a tough hunt.
If the rifle success rate is 100% at your current outfitter and you like them, maybe consider changing to a rifle?
I think either way you go will be fine.

It's a different kind of hunt. He wants the rutting action I'm sure.

I would say that it depends on the ranch and how it is managed. My old boss went on a hunt that sounds very similar to the place you are talking about: 30k acres low fence and 10k acres HF. He hunted the LF for 3 days and decided he wanted a bull, so he went in the HF area and killed one just shy of 400". He said it wasn't difficult and everyone in his group did the same except one guy who held out on the LF side until the last day before going to the HF area to shoot his bull.

Good question. It's because I love to bow hunt and see everything up close. Given a choice of one or the other, I will always pick bow though I have nothing against my rifle. I plan on bow hunting elk as long as physically able. However, on the last day if unsuccessful, it would be nice to have the option take one with my rifle.

Real world. The fence is there for a reason.

My answer is "no". IMO deer and HF don't go together. Elk and HF dang sure don't. There is no such thing as a "HF wilderness hunt". It's an oxymoron.

I say it depends on if you think it is. Since your asking I would say you are thinking no.

If it's the ranch outside of Blackfoot, that's a herd that'll migrate 100 miles into the valley along the Tetons. 10k acres may seem large here, but it gets a lot smaller up in that country. No judgement here with whatever you do, but make sure that's what you want before going into it.

One would assume that until you see thousands of Mile of HF defining highways from NF.

This past October I hunted a 5,000 acre Preserve in Utah. I was in the mountains and the terrain was steep. There were other hunters there also. I rode horses and also went in the ranch's ATV's. I never got to see the entire area. We hunted spot and stalk and there were plenty of animals to see. I managed to take a fantastic bull. Yes, it was HF, but I felt it was more like hunting than the hunt I did in NM. The ranch I was on was 1800 acres, LF, but I only saw 2 areas of the ranch and it did not feel much like a hunt. The elk were either in the alfalfa patch or they weren't. If they were then we waited by a well house until they moved and I walked a couple of hundred yards to a place where I could get a shot. Yes, I shot a bull there but the 2 experiences were very different.
I have hunted elk on public lands since 1991 and have gotten lucky some (on elk I mean). Private property is the way to go, unless you have a good bit of time and can get way back where the big bulls are on the public land. I have no regrets about the hunt that I went on in Utah. It is all about what you want to do.

Unless the herd inside the fence looks like you'd see in a zoo enclosure, yep - it's as fair as anything you'll find anywhere else.

Elk have a natural range, like any other animal. Even on a LF hunt, they stay within that range unless something extremely substantial manages to push them out of their area, and that would take more than a hunter or two stumbling up and down mountains.

10k acres is 15.6 square miles. Think about that for a minute or two. As long as the population density is roughly equivalent to a non HF area, you'll never notice the difference.

Well, I have traveled and hunted all over the west and have a home in Montana and I have never seen that. A few strategically placed here and there to prevent collisions/funnel to underground crossings? Yes.

Thousands of miles of HF? No.

Methinks you are again exercising your tendency to create the impression the whole world is just a HF game farm. It ain't that way.

Reckon why they put those fences up then?

I know. It's a tough call and I am on the fence (no pun intended) leaning toward "no". What keeps pulling me back though is how many of the private land / landowner tag hunts are practically 100% success rate with a rifle. Where I bow hunted the past 2 years, had I been carrying my open-sighted .444 Marlin and it been legal, I could have taken nice bulls inside of 75 yards. Yet getting to within 40 yards or less just didn't happen.

Maybe I am just trying to rationalize that "spot and stalk" hunting with a bow is still going to be a challenge anywhere.

to keep you out..... which is what the fences were designed to do.....

Ever been to the elk refuge across the mountain range?

No. I would have to back through my travel logs to see if I have ever even been in Idaho. Are you talking about the Pocatello Elk Refuge?

National Elk Refuge.

http://www.jacksonholenet.com/webcams/elk_refuge.php

There's a webcam looking at it.

NF also builds crossing for the migration, just so vehicles and traveling animals don't meet. Gee BOBO, you only mentioned half of it SMH

I say do what you think you can live with, no one else will care as much as you do. If you want to give a HF elk a try, give it a shot. It seems obvious to me, that you are leaning that way for a reason, maybe because you feel your odds will be better? A herd that can't "escape"

As Rifleman said, 10k acres could be one hill....Do what get's your heart pumping, animal will likely taste the same

Methinks you need to get out more or check your eyes
Montana is a whole different animal thanks to local love of Land Baron Ted Turner.

NM, CO, NV etc are different stories

There is 1000's of miles of government owned fence Just in CO

It changes natural migrations routes, with miles of that fence only having one way entrances to let animals trapped on the road get off the road.

I would think it would be like shooting a black angus steer at a hay stack.

I'm sure it could be a fair hunt. Got a buddy that went on a couple of hunts like that in NM. Killed 400 class bulls both times & told me about passing 300 class animals up. Its what makes YOU happy. Myself high fence & elk just don't go together for what I call elk hunting. Good Luck on whatever route you take!

I wish, then it would be an easy decision. In fact, I was hoping it would be like I have heard a lot of high fence deer ranches. You have a guide who scores and prices each deer under the feeder and you pick which one.

But it isn't. They are not fed, there are no feeders. It is a self propagating herd which means all but the oldest have grown up there, been hunted, and while confined, you can hardly describe 10,000 acres as penned.

If I was confident I was going to get to do this (archery elk hunting) much longer or even next year, I would not be considering. But if the only advantage is more quality animals to hunt, therefore increasing my chances, then I may do it especially with the option of taking one with a rifle. I have invested a lot of time, money and work and if I have to retire from elk hunting after this season, it would be nice to have taken one.

Fair for you or the Elk?

Not sure what your point is. Fair chase as I understand it always applied to the hunted. Is the hunted animal is a disadvantaged position or does it have an equal opportunity to escape? Is it intentionally conditioned to a behavior that makes it more susceptible to being harvested?

200 acres, 500 acres, 1,000 acres it is lot more obvious. But 10,000 acres is a whole lot of land and not all of it is even accessible by man. Hence my post and seeking opinions from others.

Elk or success can be bought LF or HF.

I know many places that are low fence and run 100% opportunity on 350 or better Bulls including archery. Main difference is price.

If the anti HF guys want to talk smack about you archery hunting a large HF who cares. Most those guys wouldn't put forth the effort to archery hunt that kind of terrian anyway.

Wherever you hunt, if you are successful and come here to tell the story and post the picture, are you comfortable stating plainly that it was taken from a high fence operation?

Conversely if you hunt low or no fence and come home empty handed are you ok with that result?

Only you know the answer to the question. If you are asking, then down deep you must already know the answer.

There is more to "equal opportunity to escape" than what you are apparently considering. What you speak of is more precisely opportunity to evade. Due to the HF, there is no opportunity to escape the 10,000 acres. The elk you seek will be inside the fence tomorrow if you don't kill him today. That cannot be said with any degree of certainty outside the fence. Thus, the "hunted" is by definition always "at a disadvantaged position" in a HF.

That said, there are other factors besides opportunity to escape/evade.

Are the elk truly wild or conditioned to be less wary (either through genetics or proximity/handling by man)? Are their sizes representative of the area or (again) artificially enhanced?

Like all who make the "HF or not" decision, you must decide what is more important to you-the hunting experience or killing an animal. You seem to be trying to talk yourself into the experience being the same. It may look the same. It may even seem the same. (Though I have my doubts on both counts.) But it is not the same.

One more time:the HF is there for a reason.

It on 10,000 acres... You won't know unless you try so without any regret go on your hunt and have fun

Who knows… you may just have the time of your life

I can honestly say if this hunt is as represented and I took an elk with my bow, I would be proud of it and willing to share the circumstances with anyone.

And I can honestly say that I would not be comfortable stating I took this elk from a high fence operation because I would not hunt a high fence operation if it gave me an unfair advantage over the animal.

If I play it forward though and I go and I stumble upon and harvest a 340 bull that looks at me from 30 yards then goes back to grazing while parking broadside in front of me, that I will be forever disappointed. So I guess I really do know the answer.

Now I have to scramble for another option or hunt their private land.

It's not the fence, it how the animals live as to whether they are wild or not. You can train a deer to be hand fed if you have the right circumstances, same with almost any animal. We have mule deer that will eat Cheerios out of your hand, the nearest fence is a fenced yard.

DC, have a stand there I can use? I'll take out some of those MD for you, they are always after my Lucky Charms...........

Edit, You are right though, as far as taming animals, I have had tame deer. Wouldn't shoot them though.

I like free range hunts. But that does not mean you may not like something else. It seems like fair is totally how you want to define it. Is it fair that I shoot a .300 WSM at the elk? Maybe it is more fair if you use a bow?
I am trying to say you are the one who has to decide. Elk are beautiful animals inside a fence or out.

We get it - you have a disdain for anything high fence, and you let that disdain color it in a negative light, even if your rationale is inaccurate.

That's ok.

The biggest reason that private landowner hunts have such high success rates with rifles (and significantly higher with archery as well, for that matter) is that the landowners typically have a very healthy set of research and historical data knowing the patterns of the animals on their land, and they probably have tailored the land to some degree to make said patterns more predictable. it's not uncommon or any real secret.

If you think hunting a wild elk on 10k acres is not fair chase, then the answer is simple - don't take the hunt.

If you are that concerned, as the landowner to provide you with contact information for 5-10 past clients that have hunted that section of land and see what they have to say about the hunt, then make your decision based on that information. But don't base your decision on what somebody may think about your hunt simply because of the height of the fence.

I'm not a real fan of HF, but too much of a stigma has been put on it due to the 50 acre "ranches" that are stocked with zoo deer here in TX. I can guarantee you that it won't be the same experience on 10k acres, assuming the elk density is similar to that of "free range" animals and they aren't conditioned via feeders, human contact, etc. Regardless of what Nogales likes to think, the fence likely has little play in the life of the elk, or their ability to make it a fair chase hunt. You simply are talking about too much acreage - that is almost double the normal territorial range of a bull elk.

Think about it - even if you are hunting and push the animal to the fence, does the elk simply stop and give up because there is a fence? No - he has 10k acres to maneuver on. That fence is relatively insignificant as a result (again, assuming non conditioned animals here) and there is as much fair chase as there is with an elk that has an established territory of a canyon on the other side of the mountain who never leaves that territory either.

Noggy P's rationale is accurate and private LO hunts run high bc there's less pressure from
the pumpkin army. I've never been on a unit where the pressure on public didn't have herds piled up on private. Low pressure LE hunt success rates run high as well from less pressure and fewer tags to fill.

Spoke to the ranch today and they have an opening on private land. Also spoke to a guide as well as couple more past hunters. The guide was surprisingly open regarding my concerns and laid out like this. The high fence has genetically superior bulls and there are more bulls than on the private land. But the actual hunting of the elk is pretty much the same - they are wild and if you get one, especially with a bow, you earned it.

Hunters said pretty much the same. One was rifle the other a bow hunter who has hunted there 5 times and taken 4 elk. Twice, he resorted to rifle on the last day because despite seeing a lot of bulls, they simply couldn't get within bow range. The rifle hunter was successful too, but it was late the second day after a lot of hunting and glassing. They both said that once they went through the fence, they never saw it again despite covering miles and miles each day.

I think now that I am going to do it. If it comes down to my last day of hunting and I get opportunity to take one with a rifle, I will. If I don't get to hunt elk again, I will have been able to harvest one. If I do get to hunt elk again, then I can go for it on private, even public land and maybe take a shot at pack in hunt somewhere.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

It's nice to live in a country with options

Train hard. Practice up I have a feeling it's going to be a tough hunt.

What they said. Good luck and go get ya some Elk!!

You can officially get excited now

The way most people shoot, I'd say the elk has a better than average chance of surviving a lot of hunters!

True. But probably more from nerves than poor shooting. That is my biggest fear. Finally getting a good shot at a nice elk and having my knees buckle and collapsing right before I can release.

I wouldn't call it accurate, I'd call it pointed. Big difference

Oh you're more libel to nick one or not set your release and pop your string then your knees buckling... At least in my personal experience

I don't get why you are so torqued. This was not a "ban HF" thread. The man asked for input and opinions from the THF with a very specific and straightforward question regarding the typical differences of HF vs. wilderness elk hunts. I gave my input and opinion to the specific question.

And I get pounded for it by those who have a burr under their saddle about the larger HF issue which, again, was not the topic. Geez....

......

Have you hunted Elk behind a HF?

Good luck on your hunt!

Not torqued in the least bit. But your view is pointed. How can you say it's not pointed when you already have a hardline defined in your head? Not like your going to give an inch on that thought either. Not saying I don't respect that either.

What is the difference between him spending 27k for a LF elk vs a fourth or fifth of that on a large HF placed? He will spend more time driving from the lodge to hunt location? Or this ideology that his elk could of escaped on a 60k LF acre ranch. You always focus on the fence height. That's it.

The HF is nothing more then an option that's similar to the private land ranching for wildlife program in CO. It gives an any weapon option. There is a lot more to the OPs question then just the fence height.

I'm thinking NP would need an EpiPen, if he even got close to a HF

I've shot them behind a fence, even had them elude me to areas where I wouldn't have a clear shot for the rest of a day. Being able to hear them from a long ways off and tgen going and finding a herd vs a small group of deer makes it a lot different than trying to hunt a deer that way.

My take is that there would be little difference between a 10,000 acre HF and a large LF ranch with a high population of non migrating elk. Non migrating elk will have a home territory they use and if not disturebed by hunting pressure they can be patterned. Your guide will be able to find them most of the time.

16 square miles is a lot of territory

That's 4 x 4 miles. If it has elevations, you could see the whole place from one spot.

You can do justify just about anything if you want it bad enough, but in the end, you will just end up shooting shooting an animal in a pen. Completely meaningless to me, but you can make it as mystical as you want.

It doesn't matter how big the property it is......they aren't getting out and the population is controlled. More acres equal more livestock which equal more opportunity for the shooter. Does a rancher have any less cows per acre on 10,000 acres as he would on 1,000 if he what's to achieve maximum utilization? I wonder why he would even need a fence........with 10,000 acres, I'm sure they would never leave the ranch

Thanks for all the input folks - both the positives and the negatives. Much appreciated.

I hunt a little more then 13 sections in CO. With elevation from 6000' to 8000'. You can't see a 1/5 of it from on top. Access wise there aren't roads going to half of it. There is a reason why you can get to the other half via road. It's almost impossible to build due to the terrain.

4x4 miles is a linear distance not true surface area. Walking one mile linear might actually mean covering 3 miles to get one mile.

Haven't spent much time out west on BLM land or NF I'm guessing.

You don't need fences...need only water.

Yeah, and none of them ever wonder off, huh? I thought we were talking about Idaho.

I would go for it.. I know that there are state and national parks that are HF and no one ever consider that as unfair.
That's a lot of ground up in the mountains and trying to chase after an elk on foot with a bow is hardly taking anything away from him getting away from you.
I think it's funny how it's considered real hunting if you sit in a couple hundred acre alfalfa field that's low fence and everyone is ok with that but hunting 10,000 acres in the mountains on foot is not a real hunt cause of a HF.

Absolutely it would be a fair chase hunt. On 10,000 acres anyone that tells you otherwise simply has a anti HF agenda. Go for it.

Bingo. We have a winner

So when does one split the difference...

Do it. Who cares what others think?

NP has never hunted a high fenced place, but has (with no experience whatsoever) decided that it's a canned hunt. I typically don't listen to the opinions of folks who have no experience on issues they are pontificating on. And I've always found that people's opinions on things they have no experience with, are worth as much as tits on a boar.

Amazing how consistent that is.

What if they had hunted on a HF place that was a canned hunt and based their opinion on it...does that make their opinion valid or is it still wrong because you disagree?

Did you know that boar in a HF actually lactate because the balance of nature has been upset!

Have hunted elk a few times, a lot of their range has to do with Terrain, cover, Food sources and water. On one 50,000+ acre ranch there were always elk in an area less than 10,000 acres. We never went into the dark timber after them but could count on them being in the fields along the creek pretty much every day and doubt that group of elk ranged over 3000 acres. On the other side of the ranch we had 7 sections bordered by NF on 2 sides with 6 "creek" drainages there would be a few elk on that 7 sections during the day but mostly they were in the NF during day. Those elk would travel 7 miles+ to the grain fields along the river daily. Killed 3 bulls as they crossed that part of the property. All that in just saying even in big country low fence places elk have different range preferences and range size.

For the OP, enjoy your hunt. Do not worry about what any of us think, if you are happy we should be. Elk are majestic animals and fun to hunt. There is no other sound that I have ever heard that gets the blood flowing like a bull elk bugle while I am hunting the mountains especially when he is responding and coming to my calling.

Since you said outfitter I assume you'll be using a guide, in that case hi or low makes little difference. If the outfitter is worth his salt he and the guides have pretty well done their homework, they spent the pre season glassing and watching bulls throughout that whole area and can pretty well put you in the right area's. I said that to say this! With that kind of an advantage before you go in it makes no difference whether it's high or low your not going to hunt the whole place. My place is only 3 sections but I know where most of my bucks are, where they bed and the paths they're most likely to take. Does that turn my low fence into a high fence? Well it will certainly seem like it you'll certainly have a better chance and I'll keep you out of area's that are non productive. My father in-law was an outfitter in Wyoming and knew this very well. He didn't have his clients running all over the place, he had them where the bulls were which may have been a 10th of the area available. You might as well have hi-fenced it because the elk pretty well treated it like it was.

I'm just saying that 10,000 acres isn't as much as it sounds. I hunted on 15,000 in south Africa, and there were a couple of promontories where we could go and scan the whole place from. I was kind of disappointed at how small it seemed. Yet, actually driving around on it, it seemed large.

Anyway, this whole fair-chase movement has gotten out of hand and is based on some unexplored ideas about how hunting "used to be". But I've read many of the old hunting books and the hard part about hunting in those days was transporation -- getting to where you were going to hunt by train, then horseback. The finding the animals and killing them was usually pretty easy. The one exception to that I can think of was the stories of Jack O'Connor hunting mountain sheep and goats, which involved a lot of strenuous walking and glassing. Even then, he was usually done in 5 days.

It would add validity to an opinion. Without having experienced something you can't have a valid opinion. You can only be speculating.

For it to be a comparative opinion you would have to experience a similar hunt, in this case on approximately 10,000 acres.

So, does this moderator status cause comprehension decay? Or were you that way before your "promotion"?

I agree, everyone is flipping pennies. High or Low , with a guide, he is going to put you on Bulls fast as possible to get you killed out with one you like.

Allot of truth in this post.

High country Elk will start to migrate to lower elevation, some as early as mid-late September. When on the move, or harassed enough, they can travel up to 40 miles in 24 hrs. A 7 mile "hike" is small potatoes to an elk, more like a fella crossing a 100 acre field.. Where I lived for a spell and hunted for over 30 years, it is amazing what elk can do when they get the urge.

I also know of a couple herds on a friends place, He has a 14k acre low country place that has a resident herd of around 20, that particular herd utilizes most of that place since it is in AG. As early as the end of Sept, but usually after the 1st extended cold spell in early November, More elk start arriving from the high country, some as far as 70 miles (according to the GW I know there). I have seen the migration many times and it is spectacular, especially when they stage up mid level, an amazing sight to behold. This friend of mine has an additional 30k acres or so in the high country, even when he moves his cows out for winter, they will make a 10 mile drive in less that one day and this is just mountian condition cattle.

10 acres is small to an elk.

Who would of thought there was no BLM land or NF in Idaho...

Cattle are similar to wildlife. Ranchers will drop them off in the high country and they migrate from the high country down staying close to the water sources. Wild life migrations really depend on snow fall.

Idaho does have unique issues though with its heavy presence of Wolves and Grizz. Buddy lost 3/4 of his mulie last year to wolves

I was that way before my "promotion"...but you knew that

I don't necessary agree. Common sense tells you that 10k acres stocked with a larger herd than the LF place of 30k acres and bigger bulls would have a higher success rate of a bull of specific caliber. You wouldn't have to hunt a comparative place to understand that.

Granted, there are LF places that are easier to hunt, have a higher success rate and would be closer to hunting a "canned hunt", such as some of the IR in New Mexico. But I have never hunted those, so this statement is irrelevant

The "you can't have an opinion on something if you haven't done it" is a crock of .

I have opinions on theft, soliciting a prostitute, shooting heroin, exceeding bag limits, texting while driving, ISIS, and about a million other things. So does everyone on this forum. So that's just stupid.

The majority of folks who opine on HF elk hunting on this thread have never been on a HF elk hunt. Does that argument apply to them? Not for the supporters. Again, a crock. Just another ridiculous thing to say.

There is room for legitimate debate about whether HF hunting should be allowed under a "to each their own" philosophy. But once that crosses into the "it makes no difference", "it has no effect", or "it's all the same" (which is the topic of this thread), the arguments become stretched to the point of laughability.

HF operations exist to change the game-to make animals easier to kill and/or grow artificially bigger animals to hunt. Anyone without skin in the game and a modicum of common sense knows this. Arguments trying to deny or ignore this quickly spiral into the nonsensical.

For the umpteenth time: The fence is there for a reason. There is no getting around that plain fact.

I bear no ill will towards the OP. He asked for opinions and he got them. From his posts, I can pretty much discern by now where he is coming from. He wants an elk-preferably a big elk. That is his primary focus. He has made a rational decision (for him) that will certainly fulfill his goal.

One thing none of us have mention or thought about is what he will be targeting size wise. Any bull is one thing, a certain class bull is another thing.

A good friend of mine bought a LF management bull hunt in NM a few years back. Basically a mature 5x5 or 5x6.
Got his bull but could of tagged out first couple of days on stud 360 plus 6x6 and 7's. When your hunting with archery that compounds the issue 100 fold, when you literally have to out smart satillates, cows, and herd Bulls to get with in range of one specific bull.

So your definition of artificially bigger deer are deer that are bigger due to proper management?

Very true Bobo. And the main reason HF elk ranches exist-to get around that problem.

Nope. I do not define artificially confining animals for the purpose of replacing and/or enhancing genetics as "management". It's raising livestock.

Think there are getting to be some physical restrictions(archery age). Not that any of us are spring chickens, but we all get to a point where we have to call the ball.

Personally I plan on being the bionic man with all synthetic joints myself, I doubht I will ever pick up a rifle for elk but that's just me. I hope to draw my sheep tags while of archery age also

But they use the same tactics as large lf places. Funny how a fence makes the exact same thing become something different, no matter how large of area that fence is lol

With a rifle you would have a point. But archery it's probably more of hindrance to the hunter. Probably harder in a large HF because you may be only targeting 1-3 bulls. On LF you have more options. Most likely strictness of age and management goals are probably looser.

Toss in the fact you know those elk will be call smart.. OP might be in for a lot harder hunt then he expects

Not if it's a higher density like the OP mentioned. Chances are they'll be targeting the satellite bulls that are still good bulls, but just can't hang.


And won't be call smart, keep a lot of Bulls around each other and they're very vocal, year-round.

Ya they just ran them off a cliff.

You also want to make one for "hunting animals for sport and not for survival, WTF? "

And "hunting animals for the size of the horns and not the meat, WTF?"

Like trying to kill a spike on one of STX previous managed ranches

Density is meaning less when you have a set number of animals being managed via age. Especially when you don't have new animals every snow fall.

That was buffalo, You're slipp'n BOBO! LOL

If the place is big enough then I don't have a problem with it its those places where they high fence in tons of animals in a few hundred acres or less that are just lame' I've hunted on a 20,000 acre high fence in NM and it was quite a challenge and I would definately go again.

100% success rate doesn't show that. Enhanced genetics also indicates they don't have to wait for snow for new animals.

Bobo, click on that link in the first page and zoom in on the ridge behind the elk....

Is there a difference? The OP answered the question.

Everything else is just talk.

Great post. See, it's not just one or the other. This opinion makes sense from a common sense perspective and experience. How refreshing.

Something seldom mentioned in these threads is the shape of the place. If it's 800 yards by 30 miles, then it's not real fair. If it's a 4 mile square, then it's a lot fairer.

We hunted a 12.5 thousand acre place in south texas that was basically square, and it was as fair as any open range place, unless of course you drove animals into a corner,

Any herd animal

Apparently it's not a 100% success if he found reviews and or talked to people that didn't get an elk...

Your missing the my point completely. You don't kill ever elk in there every year.

Geneticlly superior like spike harvest or put a couple breeder Bulls or run DPM pen.... Huge difference. Doesn't sound like put and take

Yes there is a difference if there is 20 bulls and 30 cows in the 10k and only 2 meet harvest requirements then your wading through a lot of animals to get a specific bull.

I get it's hard for you to phantom this, you hunt for any legal animal, not specific

What's hard for me to fathom is that, despite stated facts to the contrary, you insist on assuming HF places are just the same/as challenging as wilderness hunts.

From what I can glean from what the OP posted, success rate is 80-100%. I'm shocked.

The fence is there for a reason.

You want to conveniently ignore these facts to the contrary don't you NP?

I'm not ignoring. The animals in that 20K acres cannot get out.

The fence is there for a reason.

I thought almost all the African hunts were behind high fences? Don't hear much debate when folks hint Africa.

Please I passed up a December LF 367" bull this for 4500 dollars. I don't rifle hunt elk nor would rifle hunt any moose, mulies, Rams etc.

I'm booked with the APIR for 2016 100% archery opportunity on 350 or better Bulls, 97% success rate on 350 or better.

Ask me how I know the score of the elk from above? I passed it on to buddy. Hunt took him 1 hour. He had is choice of any bull. I had pictures of the one he shot before he went up there.

You always make it sound like it's some grand accomplishment to kill an animal. It's simple with a Rifle and Guide. You can buy your opportunity with a Rifle LF or No fence.

Why didn't you hunt your Ram with a bow and not hirer a guide? Cause you knew it was most likely last chance you would have at a DBH. Your outfitter has a 100% success with a rifle.

Hell of a mountain you built to look down from

Google "Estate elk hunts". Read the websites.

The fence is there for a reason.

From what I saw the success rate was about the same as the LF place. He said 80-90% with a rifle in the HF and 100% with a rifle on the LF place. Around 25% with a bow.

Rifle hunters

That success rate is high, but may be covered up in Elk there IDK.

Last stats I saw for Colorado was around 20% state wide all manner of take. 25% with a bow is high. I know this is Idaho, so they may have better success rates, or less hunters?

Edit: I know the rates in Colorado dont reflect the rates by guided and certian properties.

If you are not hunting like the guy in the video then you are not giving the animal a fair chance LF, HF, bow or rifle..

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=826HMLoiE_o[/video]

You still consistently lump all HF into one category.

Again, I'm not a huge fan of HF in general - but a HF is not a HF in all situations, especially when you are talking about enough land mass to make the HF irrelevant to the living conditions of the native game - and unless you can definitively prove otherwise, 10k acres fenced will make no difference to a resident game animal that has a natural range of about 6k acres.

Yes, the fence is there for a reason - but your reasons are laced with jaded opinions of why I think.

Schmellba99, please enlighten us on all of the reasons that folks HF elk that have nothing to do with impeding the elks' ability to go where they please or keeping others from shooting those elk.

I would posit that the line of demarcation is when there is enough restriction via fence or other boundaries that you can actually trap the animal, or herd it to a particular point, or if the enclosure is sufficiently small as to not allow natural support for the game enclosed (i.e. one would need supplemental feed just to keep the game alive).

In the grand scheme of things, the area the OP is talking about is no different than "fair chase" hunting on one of the many islands in Lake Michigan or off of Alaska that people pay a whole lot of money to go do. In both cases, there are barriers that keep animals restricted to the area (both very large areas) - but they are barriers just the same. In the HF, it's apparently cheating (according to Nogales anyway), but on an island it is sporting and fair chase. The only difference is the type of fence.

Canned hunts are a bad, bad thing - don't get me wrong. And I'm generally not a fan of HF in general - especially the way it is implemented in Texas. But that does not mean that all HF operations are canned hunts, which is unfortunately how some people tend to view them. I'd venture to say that there are many HF operations that are far more sporting than many of the LF operations out there.

Deer can swim. As much as I don't care for HF, what I really cannot stand is using dogs to chase animals - pigs, deer, or anything else other than criminals. HF is half about keeping animals from going out where some trigger happy yahoo cannot keep his finger off of the trigger on a young animal. Not a defense of HF, but just an observation especially in South Texas is the irony that in some HF operations, the animals live longer and a better life than if it wasn't there. Still I don't care for them as they impede the movement of animals other than just such as the bears, cats and badgers. To me, it is more an issue of supporting maintaining natural habitat and ecosystems rather than some sporting records. I hunted a place one time that was high fence, which I did not know until I arrived. It was just over 2,000 acres with native deer, not a put and take operation. I went ahead and gave it a try. It took three days to find a mature management/cull deer. Shot a 118" eight point. So, it can be quite challenging. It was a nice experience and I would not rule it out in the future, but I do wish they were not there at all, anywhere.

ttechcollyville . It is very hard to take advise from a person who wants a Federal law outlawing all HF.

Sounds like you have done your research. If you will not be proud of your elk then don't go. If you want LF hire a guide to pre-scout so the opening week you can take one of the bulls he has picked out for you.

Just because you hunt a HF does not mean you have to kill an animal. I get so tired of hearing people go "I hunted a HF and took a 170 buck it was like shooting a pet"..... No one made them shoot. They blame the deer for the poor choice they made in selecting a HF ranch . There are a lot of quality HF ranches and yes there are some bad ones. Then again there are a lot more crappy LF outfitters just taking your money. You can leave empty handed if the experience is not what you expected but one thing you will leave with enjoyment of the time you spent in the great outdoors.

Good Luck

No doubt deer can swim, islands in the Mississippi flood and the deer leave them swimming, then come back to them swimming. I do not know many people that would want to swim half way across the Mississippi.

To keep NP out

Left out the option to get a LO voucher in NV around a certain park and go kill the first 380ish bull that comes out of the park looking for cows. Might get lucky on a bigger bull, 6ppl did on Bulls over 400 that all did the same thing messing up by coming out of the park. Why the resident elk leave a giant park is just beyond me.

Stepping out where there are smaller bulls to compete with for the cows.

Ever go to Gardner, MT before the wolf reintroduction. The hunts just outside the park in those days was more of a slaughter for those that drew a tag. Even after the introduction but before the packs got so numerous drove through Yellowstone and exited at Gardner there was a 380 class 7X7 bedded in the shade of the Church.

LOL sheephunter it is not needed to keep me out.

Kmon1, I remember that in the 90s. Go there now and you'll see sheep and MTN goats. Go over into ID and won't see much, bad winter kill in 2010. You also won't find much of squat in Yellowstone over winter. They've gone. Last I heard they were also having collared elk migrating from Mammoth down to the refuge instead of heading up to Gardiner. Elk are unpredictable, but they can cover ground in a hurry and can no longer hang around an area without the wolves figuring them out.

VALID opinion. The qualifier you conveniently missed. Speculation based opinions are definitely yours to have, but their validity will always be questioned by those with actual experience.

Your comprehensive skills are approaching mod level.

Easy cowboy...

We are not that far apart. Certainly some places are worse than others. But an honest person would admit most HF operations tend way more towards the "fish in a barrel" variety than vice versa. Your comment on TX shows you are aware of this fact. It's true in other states too. It's true most anywhere folks put up a HF.
But, whatever the conditions, they are all "canned" in the sense that the HF changes the game.

The fence is there for a reason.

By that reasoning every hunt that offers 100% opportunity and 95% success is canned correct?

No. But you either wouldn't understand or admit the difference.

Those are illegal HF is not.

You lump all HF into easy kill but ignore the easy to kill NF $250,000 bighorn ram permit. The LF outfitter with 100% success, the LF outfitter pre-scoutng your "trophy" before you even arrive in camp. You just take 100% credit for their work because you the man. Just remember those permits and outfitters exist for only one reason to make you look like the hero. Then again to you "it makes no difference", "it has no effect", or "it's all the same"

HF would be illegal if the NP's ever had their way. It's nice to know they never will.

Translation: "I have no valid reply to your statement".

They are not all illegal. (Not the point anyway.)

I haven't "taken credit" for jack. I haven't even mentioned anything about myself.

No I see differences, I just have opened my eyes more and don't focuses purely on fence height.

I'll be the first to say I bought my last two mule deer with PL LO permits. I'll even admit it only took me three days to kill my first with a bow and a guide. I'll be the first to admit I picked that ranch based of 100% archery success. I only hunt archery because that's what's fun to me. I have friends that laugh at me because they have seen me pass on some studs instead of simply grabbing a rifle.


I don't sit on a perch passing judgement on how people hunt. I'm excited for each person that gets outside and hunts...where ever or how ever it is. I understand not everyone is as physically capable as myself also.

I understand you hunted Big horns with a rifle for several reasons, but at this point in my life I wouldnt. I'd rather go home with a smile and a memory about how I got beat then pick up a cannon. I don't have to have one that bad. I can say that honestly but I'm also 20 years younger then you and the op and in a lot better physical condition.

Like I said I see differences I just have a wider veiw that focuses on everything not just fence height.

I hope the OP books and I hope that elk wears his arse out where he can't hardly move for a few days and in the very last second of the last day the elk comes in bugling and the OP gets a clean kill while that bull is screaming his head off. No matter how it goes down I hope he holds antlers at the end of the day. He will be proud because he fought the mountain and elk and on that day he finally won. Regardless if he grabs a rifle he still won in my eyes.


That's the fundamental difference between you and I.

Pays to always have a tag in your pocket when you see a stud buck as well

Having a hard time understanding why you fellas have so much animosity towards each other. based on their hunting preference, but I'm trying to "catch-up"

Wow. Just to clarify a couple of things. I am not after a trophy, but this might be the last time I get to go elk hunting and I really would like to get one. But not so much that I close the door on bow hunting in favor of a rifle hunt on the NM land I hunted the past 2 seasons and which yielded 100% success on rifle and less than 25% on elk.

From what I have gathered, including talking to others, harvesting an elk at this new place will be dramatically more challenging than taking one with a rifle at my old place. On the last day, if I have not taken one with a bow by then, I have the option of hunting with a rifle and at which time my odds will go way up - just as they would be on the other place. But I don't honestly know if I would use the rifle anyway - there is a pretty good chance I would hunt with the bow until the end but I would like that option and isn't costing much.

The price difference is a whopping $300.00 from what I pay in NM. I am not after a trophy. I would be just as excited with a 5x5 as a 6x6 whether it breaks 300 or not. The elk are genetically superior in part because it is managed. There are more shooter bulls, not necessarily more bulls though as they maintain the elk density on the property similarly to the surrounding property they own.

I got back into only 5 years ago after more than 30 years away. And what I have finally realized reading all these posts is what a couple people already said which is basically that everyone has to decide for themselves the challenge they are seeking and no one's definition of fair play, fair, fair chase, etc., is the same.

After 30 years away from hunting, I could not believe all the changes from when I hunted deer as a high school kid. Just on my bow - releases, fall aways rests, bow sights, mechanical broad heads and range finders. Then getting on a lease it was popup blinds, trail cams, feeders, corn, even protein. So who gets to decide what's fair or not?

So "fair" is really in the eye of the beholder and specific to the game and the challenge you are looking for. From the feedback I have from people hunting this particular place, it is hard terrain, the elk are smart, and you won't even come close to getting one if you are not prepared. I like that challenge more than rifle hunting on a low fence where my odds are practically 100%. I'm pretty comfortable with this now. And if I do get the opportunity to hunt elk again, I will likely go back to my NM spot.

I voice my opinions on HF hunting. Specifically, the topic at hand. The OP asked for opinions. I gave mine and explained. I discuss hunting methods, not people.

You (and others) accuse me of looking down on folks. Again, I don't discuss people.

YOU (and certain others) do, however. My sheep hunt is continually brought up-just as you just did. You say you don't pass judgment, yet in the very next paragraph you pass judgment by blabbing about how you would do this and you would do that different than I did. Your words drip with condescension. (When the truth is you don't have a clue what you would do. Just words. Call me when you get the tag.)

And you have the nerve to say I am the one on the high horse.

I think you got the idea pretty good, your money, your hunt. If your happy with it, then I say good deal and good luck

You just totally missed my point.

This the first time I have ever said how I would only hunt sheep with an arrow. The minute you told me you got a sheep tag I was pumped for you. Hell even jealous, but yet extremely proud of you for getting one. And will forever be proud of all your hunting adventures. Hell you never know one day I might right next to you poking you with a stick saying don't miss.

I would never expect you to only choose a bow on what mostly likely will be a one in a life time tag or opportunity. Just like the OP said it may be his last archery elk hunt so he wanted a dual weapon option.

My point was I hold my self to a different set of rules. It's my own personal hard headed and some times dumb ideology.

With that said I never hold other people to the same standard and I look at their animals with as much respect and pride as they have for them. That was my point.

You don't know this but we have met at the gas station by your house. I commented on your black Eagle archery hat.

What ever help you need to get ready let me know. I'll be shooting and working out everyday starting in March.

Glad you clarified that BOBO, I had missed your point as well and took it similar to how NP must have, except the "hosses part". What makes reading you twos argument so interesting, I can see both of you guys point. Only reason I haven't made a donation to either "political camp"

Well, thank you for that. If you ever hunt and take a ram with a bow, I will be the first to congratulate you on a truly remarkable accomplishment.

I hope you have a great hunt and good time... Don't forget to post the pics..

I apologize if I didn't write it clear. I can ramble.

NP knows or I hope he knows I have the upmost respect for his ways of doing things, and even more so of his adventures and experience.

Yes, I do. And I appreciate all your kind words, support, and help.

Now don't you two get mushey on me.

LOL.

The mark of civilized men is the ability to discuss matters upon which they may disagree, yet still respect one another. It is through this process perspectives (on both sides) are broadened and common ground can be found.

This is a largely forgotten concept in America today.

I'll bet myself and many who discuss this from all sides could agree on a number of things related to the topic of HF enclosures.

What ever you do....Good Luck to you Sir

Hope you connect and get some Pics

I hope you have fun where you are going ttech. I know that I did. My hunt was made when, while we were riding to the back of the ranch, I spotted a bull staring at me through all of the brush there. I saw him and it was a good day. Get in shape some because those mountains are steep. The guides there are top notch and will help you along if you have any problems. Mine kept me from falling backwards down the mountain (guess I can lose my balance at my age and on that incline). Good luck.

g

Very true and there are just as many who would disagree on the same subject. That is why I enjoy this forum. It is like discussing differing topics with friends or fellow workers. Since I no longer work and don't get to discuss or argue about what I think or what they think this is an out for me.

I'll be danged. I do remember. Hansom Hanks or whatever its called. Thanks, I appreciate that.

Anyone on here (if allowed) could head on up to Yellowstone and take a B&C scoring Bighorn, Elk, Mule Deer, Grizzly or Buffalo where no fence exist. The game is calm and millions of people each year stop and take their picture along the roadside. So the height of the fence has nothing to do with the pursuit, it's their environment. Now open up Yellowstone to all hunters and it would change the game.

I agree you can "raise a whitetail" or any animal for that fact, giving little to no challenge to the hunter. However numerous HF ranches are not raising pet's. Year after Year after Year top LF ranches produce monster game. Can they escape, yes, do they want to no. Perfect buck to doe ratios, culling for proper genetics, supplemental feed, planted crops, etc. This is their home. Somehow we do not frown on this but throw up a HF and we climb up on the HF and past judgement. Just remember all that is black is not dirty and all that is white is not clean. Educate yourself before you put down that deposit and take note a muskox is stupid know matter how much land they roam.

Enjoy the adventure. Rather walking on your lease or scaling Mt. Everest.

P.S. NP

Been to Yellowstone in the dead of winter many times and you aren't going to see squat. They do what migrating animals do. Go over into ID and most of the animals from up across the state line from Yellowstone have moved down into Swan Valley to ravage the potato farmers.

I hunted on a drop in hunt on the Urraca Wildlife Area in the late 80s. There were three hunters on this hunt and we did not stir the dust on a thousand acres. If it's rough country 80% of the elk won't even know you are there. Personally, if I had the chance I'd be on it like a rooster on a June bug. Good luck and have fun. Oh the Urraca contains a little over 13,000 acres.

OK one can't because they would pick the dead of winter.

I would pick the fall season.

To answer the original question: Yes.

Good memory. I'm dead serious also
I'm kind of passionate about archery elk... Just a touch

I say do it and do not look back

Go ahead and have a great hunt and hopefully get your Bull. You know you will enjoy the thrill of the hunt and once you have accomplished that, the pressure is off buddy. Now you if you so choose, you can continue to Bow hunt at your leisure for a free range Bull with out the thoughts of what if

If I had the time and money, heck yes!

Though I don't know if I would ever do a HF hunt it's nobodies place to pass judgement on your decision should you go forward with it. Having said that, 10 acres or 10k acres - doesn't matter - you still have to get close enough for the bow shot. I don't bow hunt so I can only imagine how difficult that can be at times. If you don't have a bow opportunity, don't hesitate to take advantage of the rifle opportunity! You didn't make the trip to pass so bring one home either way and if for some reason you don't you undoubtedly will still have enjoyed the outdoors.

I say debate no more, do it. I truly wish you success and hope to see pictures and offer you a congratulations no matter the fence or weapon!

Cheers - Mickey

If only all folks who don't care to hunt HF had your attitude.. Imagine what power hunters would wield presenting a united front?

Thank you for your willingness to let others decide for themselves!

X2

I think you can have an enjoyable and fun hunt ...but it's not the same as free range.

That said, it's all about what you want. On 10K acres I am sure you see some nice scenery ....hike a bit...and you will also soot a big bull (that's why it's a high fence).

If the fence doesn't bother you do it....if you have to keep asking about it...then maybe you shouldn't. I think it all comes down to what makes you comfortable.

Hike a bit?

10,000 acres... you better have a couple of weeks to hike to see it all.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it. That's a lot of ground to cover and that does not mean that you will even see a elk, much less get a shot.

When I lived in Ruidoso, I had pet deer at my house who would come when i whistled to them. They didnt have a fence, my property borded national forest and I could have just gone 50 yards and shot them during deer season. Nogales - would this be something you would be interested in, its low fence - so technically we could still retain our elite hunter status? Hey and we don't even have to bait them, so it truly is a wild hunt....and it's legal. I also have elk and turkey that will do the same thing, but you have to shake a corn sack for them. But not high fenced, so we can still feel like we are better than others. You in?

See the same thing around most towns out West...they've been conditioned to people. The fact you could shoot the deer from your yard on neighboring NF indicates you'd need a fence to hold them on your place.

Reminds me of a dark horned 200" golf course mulie... How old you think he was?

Middle-aged and I'm pretty sure I have pics of that deer from '12. Would you believe my winter time scouting representative has seen that deer on the units to the East & West since Christmas. He and another nice buck are just running the cottonwoods along 50.

I don't see why unless the golf course is now food depleted. But what ever gives you hope for next year

Should of called me. We could of booked the Golf club for our annual charity turny, and you could of grabbed a bow and sat on top of the golf cart, while I slow rolled.

no hope, none of it is public and it's not smart to hunt private through there. They're doing what the migrating herd normally does once they've dropped down, except most of those just go back & forth between 2 units. So if one wants to get technical, a 1 million acre unit isn't holding the migrating herd.

Samson Law & Lacy Act will definitely apply on that ordeal.

You know he's done it

not lacy if we get permission, all about how we right up the contract.

Lol, working on the contract now

Well, by all means, take your check book to SLC next week and get me a gov tag to use.

To the OP, yes

nope, it's still caged

Simply, yes!

When I was with Academy's Pro Staff I did a hunt with Chad Brauer for the TV show at the Flat Top Ranch outside Walnut Springs. This is an 18,000 acre ranch that had several Monarch size elk. We hunted two days, Chad took a 300" + and I took a cull.

Other than the hunt being in Central Texas, I could not tell the difference between that hunt and one I did 5 years earlier in the Apache Forest in New Mexico. We used the same hunting techniques and methods, got the same reaction from the bull and cow elk just as though we were in NM!

I've hunted 6 different units in NM and cannot see any differences between the "free" elk and the "caged" elk and obviously, they are not affected by their differing environments. The only thing being affected are the hunter's brains!

when I used to guide I had a number of hunters that hunting an Elk on one acre would have been hard for them.

Think of it this way...how many times have you ever hunted elk and hiked and hunted 10k acres? I've elk hunted a bunch, never had to cover that many acres or anywhere close really.

I've sat with the spotting scope set up and overlooked that much in the lower sage country. Realize it doesn't take those big animals all that long to cover a lot of ground if they're walking with a purpose.

Maybe, I was thinking this was equivalent to 7 miles or so. We shot an last year about 500 yards from where we parked the polaris, and called about 10 more into the same spot everyday. Unit 36 in nm, never had to hike over 3 miles to get into elk.

Little less than 4x4 miles if square.

Even then that would be an 8 mile hike...how many people do that while elk hunting....I know some do, I'd say vast majority dont. And I also don't know many people who can glass 4 miles away, maybe my spotting scope needs an upgrade

Your basic point-as is the basic point of all the examples given of where it's easy to kill an animal in some LF conditions-is that it should be easy for everybody everywhere. That everyone should just be able to hit the "easy button" and kill whatever they want wherever they want. No matter if it changes the nature of hunting.

It's a argument-based on the idea that hunting is all about just killing something.

5.65 if square and you have wings...

Lose detail at 2 miles at 4 you're just determining species and mannerism. My favorite bowl to hunt is roughly that size, I can go up top and find where the deer groups are concentrated and then use the road systems to go get closer looks. After that it takes about an hour to go cover it all unless I get hung up on one that has me waffling. Can also sit and find the elk concentrations in the quakies along the rim of that bowl.

"That everyone should just be able to hit the "easy button" and kill whatever they want wherever they want. No matter if it changes the nature of hunting.

It's a bs argument-based on the idea that hunting is all about just killing something."

Says the guy who hires someone to find his sheep and then "hikes" up to the "general" area and puts a "stalk" on it.


Make no mistake, I think that's a fine way to hunt.

But, the double standard of those two illustrations above, is richern' four foot up a boar's azz.

You just open your mouth and pours out. You wouldn't have made it halfway through the first day of that hunt before driving back to TX and your pens.

Spew your drivel, but this is the fact: you couldn't have killed that ram if your life depended on it. Literally.

Anything HF above 5k acres and hunted on foot would make it a hunt for me. Tooling around on a four wheeler on HF just doesn't do it for me but then again I still get around pretty good. A little older and I might start helping the knees out.

And you would of taken every legal option to get to the top of the mountain if you drew that tag at an age you physically couldn't make the climb from your pick up to the mountain.

And ironically no one would judge you for it.

That's a lie. Plain and simple. The day I can't climb the mountain is the day I quit sheep hunting. It's about having a hunter's heart. You don't get it, I know. Your post proves it.

I am pretty tired of folks presuming to speak for me. You are welcome to your own thoughts. You are not welcome to presume mine.

Haha I mean isnt that always the point - to make the hunt easier? I can take you around in Ruidoso to places where there are no elk and we could hike around all day to make it harder. Or we could drive right to where they are at get in them imediately. Not many people would chose the option where we go hiking where they arent at, most would say - "no take me right to them". And it would take me far less than 10k acres to accomplish that.

I don't know you at all. But I'll put a lot of money on the fact that I can out walk you up and down any hill/mountain you pick. Please take me up on that.

Of course, that is beside the point of the double standard you spew. I notice you conveniently ignored that.

It is always the point for many. That's why the fences go up.

But not for all.

I commend you for your honesty.

So, Mr. "don't take the easy way cause that ain't hunting".

Did you do all the scouting for that ram? Did you discover for yourself what it's patterns were? Did you hunt that sheep by yourself?

Or.... did you pay for someone to do the grunt work for you? You know, the part that makes it "real" hunting.

Please tell us you did it all yourself. We have a perception of you to maintain.

I have said all I'm going to say to you about my sheep hunt. I stand by it. Aren't you the one who says you can't comment on something unless you have done it? Yes, I believe that is you....

I have never set out to hunt and said "I am going to make this as hard as I can". When we went ibex hunting in November here in New Mexico, our goal was - lets try and find these little bastards down low before we hike up to the top of that mountain. Ended up having to hike to the top of that mountain, but that was only after option A didnt work out.

Oh no sir. I'm not denigrating the way you hunted that ram at all. In fact, if you'll read, I said I think it's a great way to hunt. Surely you aren't begrudging a positive opinion without having "experienced" it.

I find it awfully convenient that you "don't want to talk about your ram hunt" anymore.

So lets just be honest. You and I and everyone know you paid a guide to do all that work for you. You know, the part you say is so important for it to be called "real" hunting.

We ALL know why you did that (no doubt in my mind that if you were independently wealthy you'd do it all yourself), you have a "real" job and couldn't spend the required time on the mountain to do the grunt work.

You took that "short cut" for the EXACT same reason that HF AND LF hunters pay to hunt a place where the deer are patterned and someone else has done the grunt work.

You just don't like to admit it. Kinda sucks when you realize you can't have it both ways eh?

Nope... The post that said I would only use a bow for a BH says I perfer to limit my advantages. Just like javelina hunting this week. I used a bow. End result was the same just took me longer with a bow. Next year will be Longbow Most likely.

Same reason I only hunt elk and mulies with a bow. I enjoy pushing my physical limitations. Same reason I don't use an atv or horse in the mountains... I enjoys the challange not just of the animal but the challange of the mountain itself.

The difference is I don't push my idea of hunt on anyone. Including my Dad who can no longer hike the mountains so he drives up to the water hole and gets In a popup, or the fact he can't afford a high success rate LF hunt so at 77 he decided to do a HF hunt for what most likely be the last time for him to hunt and hear elk bugle or be close to one in a hunting situation.

The OP has expressed this may be his last chance at an archery elk or elk for that part do to physical and or monetary limitations. Apparently that doesn't matter to you. The time will come when you and I might only have one last go out west, wether we use a truck, horses, ATV, outfitter, helo, HF, INdian Res, private land, gov tag or rifle... No one should say anything other then good luck, have fun and be safe!

And if anyone ever degrades that, I will push back on them like I do on any post someone suggests a superior way of hunting over what another individual choose.

God, you are just a never-ending stream of ..........

That last one was funny, I bet you're in tip top shape for an old senile man, from the looks of it you have been glued to the internet over the past three weeks, sitting on your thumb and preaching to everybody how you would return your neighbors belongings and how great high fenced hunting is...just saying, I haven't been on here in a few days and all I see is pages and pages of your posts. I give credit where credit is due, most of your insults are extremely well written and the vocabulary you use is very entertaining.

Bobo my reply was in response to you saying I will use any legal means necessary to kill a sheep, not about how you hunt.

What you said is not true. Some helicopter up to the top of the mountain, shoot a ram, and helicopter down. I can't stand that. I will never do it. Period. Ever. For the same reasons I won't hunt an animal in a pen.

That's funny right there now! ..... out post everybody up and down the forum maybe.

In some eyes a helo is no different then a horse, atv, or Argo.

My point was we choose how we choose to hunt. Your opinion or ranchers opinion or my wife's opinion doesn't matter as long as it's legal. We place limitaions on our selves. We all very in opinion, but no ones opinion should degrade how others choose to get or fill thier tags.

I get why you are strong fast in your views, 100%. Even admire some of them. But at no time should my views be pushed on you. Nor yours on me.

I post on the this thread in defense of the OP and his options.

Exactly, I think the point is Nogales loves to make opinions about HF and throw barbs at people who chose that. But the second someone proves a point by throwing a barb back about how he hunts - then it's game over. Don't dish it if you can't take it.

But as far as the sheep, werent those reintroduced? Like pen raised, and then helicoptered back into areas? I'm positive ours in NM were, I have picters of it. As in the were handled by people from the get go? How do you make sure the geneology of yours isnt tainted by this (you would never do a put and take hunt)? Seems very similar to the lion thread, hand raised and released to hunt? Only difference is the fencing?

I'll admit I can lay down a pretty legitimate line of the green stuff from time to time. However, I don't believe my post above was one of those times.

In fact, I just reduced you to lame insults and avoidance of the issue. I don't blame you too much though, I mean, when your backed into a corner so completely that you have to face the truth about your inconsistencies to have any hope of getting out....

Yeah. If the truth was that ugly, I might not want to face it myself. I like to believe that I would though.

Man. I hope you're real proud of yourself, picking on an old senile man....

We need to start a new thread. This one is dead it has outlived the Op's question.

NP vs rancher. First to the top of the mountain pays for the others hunt.

I get to pick the mountain though.

You two sharing a camp fire may become my new goal.

Although that's kind of like A&M playing UT for a national championship. Might be more then the world could handle.

Although I think it would be fun to film. Like Jim Shockeys father and father in law hunts.

Well Said

Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black?

You know, you guys will do or say just about anything to avoid responding to the posts/points actually made.

It really is like my experience teaching the preschool Sunday School class once.

Me: "Can anyone tell me who built the ark?"
Them: "I had a boat once."
Me: "That's good Jamie. But do you know who built the ark?"
Them: "I bet your feet stink! (Giggle)"
Me: "That's good Johnny, but back to the ark...."
Them: "Animals have stinky feet too!! (Giggle, giggle...)"

And on and on and on.......

I guess they did not learn much in your Sunday School class either

So, were you looking in a mirror when you said the above????

Cause all you said below was "you have stinky feet!"



So, Mr. "don't take the easy way cause that ain't hunting".

Did you do all the scouting for that ram? Did you discover for yourself what it's patterns were? Did you hunt that sheep by yourself?

Or.... did you pay for someone to do the grunt work for you? You know, the part that makes it "real" hunting.

Please tell us you did it all yourself. We have a perception of you to maintain.


I have said all I'm going to say to you about my sheep hunt. I stand by it. Aren't you the one who says you can't comment on something unless you have done it? Yes, I believe that is you....



Oh no sir. I'm not denigrating the way you hunted that ram at all. In fact, if you'll read, I said I think it's a great way to hunt. Surely you aren't begrudging a positive opinion without having "experienced" it.

I find it awfully convenient that you "don't want to talk about your ram hunt" anymore.

So lets just be honest. You and I and everyone know you paid a guide to do all that work for you. You know, the part you say is so important for it to be called "real" hunting.

We ALL know why you did that (no doubt in my mind that if you were independently wealthy you'd do it all yourself), you have a "real" job and couldn't spend the required time on the mountain to do the grunt work.

You took that "short cut" for the EXACT same reason that HF AND LF hunters pay to hunt a place where the deer are patterned and someone else has done the grunt work.

You just don't like to admit it. Kinda sucks when you realize you can't have it both ways eh?


God, you are just a never-ending stream of bs ..........

For the right money I'd race you too.

I just hope the original poster decides to go on the hunt and enjoy himself......

No. They didn't. But, they were 4.

AMEN...Greatest response yet on a Narrow Minded personal agenda, hunt what you wanna hunt and Shut Up. Guess that Guide didn't pattern anything, guess that outfitter didn't PUT you on your Horns on the wall...You pay for it Hand anyway you wanna add it up And I didn't need a Sunday School lesson to get it..
Good Luck to the OP and hopefully this gets locked or goes away till the "Purest" finds another agenda.

Look at the OP's question. Does it not ask a direct question? A question asking specifically for opinions about fairness of a HF hunt?
Someone gives an opinion you don't like on the very question asked. So, you say "Shut up."
And, like others, compare it to something to which there is no comparison. All just to attack the one with the different opinion.

That's a pretty good summation of most of this thread.

I've put myself on every set of horns on the wall and will never fully understand paying an outfitter/guide on a western style hunt that's not basically an OIL tag. Put their expense toward getting a tag in a better unit.

Poor Gentleman made every effort for a decent response...

I'd say it's less fair because the animals can't get too far away. It's like fishing a pay pond vs a big lake.

When does a pond become a lake?

He said all that, and then he said he'd appreciate "any" input. My feeling is this, if he has to ask for approval, sooner or later he's gonna be disappointed. Because sooner or later someone is gonna ask where he got it and when he tells them they're gonna say "oh, a pen?"...

He got plenty of info to help him decide. I too wish him the best. And only gave my opinions.

The original post was on 2/04/2015 ..that's 19 days ago.... surely the OPer has gotten enough opinions.

Cotton Mesa is right about that size of a HF'd place.