The Lion thread

This one may go to crap in a hand basket, oh well. Watching 60 minutes, yeah liberal CBS. The segment was about a fella with a sanctuary of lions. He use to work for a place that is a breeding machine for lions in Africa.

Americans pay huge money to go to this park and pet kitten lions or smaller ones. The thing that just made me blow a head gasket? They sell the adult lions for canned Hunts!!!! Most of these so called hunters pay upwards of 100 GS. Why on Gods beautiful planet would one do this to these cats? As a hunter or seller. No wonder PETA tears us new ripe one. Deserving on this BS.

Is there any difference raiseing exotics or WT in breeding pens and releasing them to be killed ? I'm not stating if it's right or wrong just a question.

Wow. I never gave it a thought that way. With that stated though. Don't we the hunters and outfitters always push how the species has strived because of our efforts? Interesting.

Africa is a whole other issue.

If you own a large ranch what do you think those lions would cost you over a years time in animals eaten?

Also have to remember densities. What's the home range of one pride?

Take the desities combined with feeding them and it economics 101.


As far as the show... Be very careful forming an opinion based on a slanted show.. Book you a lion hunt with a bow and tell me how friendly they are.

Your post would be better received on a Peta forum than here. Since you hunt in texas, I will assume you sit in a blind over a corn feeder and when that feeder goes off the deer come running. To many people in other areas, that is ludacris. I've flown in a helicopter and shot hogs before. People think that is nuts and unethical. To each their own, but unless someone is breaking the law or poaching then I would just relax and let people do their thing. If the law allows it, why attack fellow hunters?

Sorry Sir, this is a very misunderstood market. If you would like to know more I know a Lion breeder. He would be more than happy to inform you the ins and outs. What you just posted is not exactly the way things happen. I have hunted Africa many times both "wild Africa" and fenced farms, and there is a lot of Gas spewed from people that have never been, nor understand.

Ed

I watched the 60 minutes piece as well. I think the point they mentioned that is pretty disappointing is the movement of the adult Lions that grew up in the "Petting Farms" to what they call a "canned hunt". There you have a Lion that was raised literally with hands on human contact, now being sold as a trophy hunt.

Don't care how you spin that, there is no way to call that "Sport" or hunting.

Charlie

You will not find a "wild" lion hunt in South Africa. In other countries they still have hunts for true wild lions in established prides but they are lotto winner expensive. It's the same thing we do here, buy critters turn em lose in a fence of whatever size and kill em. We use axis they lions no different. Look around and you'll find $6-8000 lioness hunts in South Africa for 5-7 days these cats were not captured and brought in and they are sure not "wild". I see no problem as all circumstances are different. Is 5000 acres of South African bush with electric fence fair? Is 10,000? Is an axis in 2000 acres of hill country? That's up to the hunter. You can thank Walt Disney and shows like 60 minutes for making lions out to be something other than just another animal. Honestly IMO some of these hunts are saving some of the truly wild prides as they are cheaper and some hunters that would be taking lions from wild prides may take these instead. I'd do it today.

So please explain how sitting in a blind, playing on your cell phone, waiting for a feeder to go off is more of a sport than hunting an animal on the ground that could kill you?

For the record I hunt in stands over feeders so not bashing it, just trying to genuinely figure out how people justify their way and frown on other methods.

I agree 100% 7mag!

I agree with most of what you say, but your first statement is wrong. You can find a few Wild Lion hunts in South Africa. The Timbavarti has 2-3 every year, one or so in Kalserie, and maybe one other in the surrounding areas north of Kruger, but true it will be quite limited,and yes they are expensive. I have a friend that does fenced Lion hunts. His are expensive as he turns the Lions loose on an open farm of 11,200 ac. 20-30 days in advance of the hunt. In every case these Lions have killed a few animals by the time they are hunted, and I will tell you they are very wild. They are definitely not "eating out of your hand". I have never had a urge to shoot a Lion. You can either, track a Lion on a fenced property, or assassinate a wild Lion over bait. I like to hunt Elephant and buffalo, much more rewarding that Lion hunt to me. If you ask me can a Fenced Lion hunt be Sporting? I say it shure can be, if done right. Can it be canned? The answer is yes to that too...

Ed

Ed you're right I should never say never there are the few. I have a lot of opinions on this and should probably steer clear of this thread as I think the issue is not so much about lions as it is about personal believes and how people have been influenced to think that some animals are untouchable and what is done to them is somehow wrong when we are doing the exact same thing to other species but it's ok. Basically like in anything every person thinks what they are doing is the right thing and if you aren't doing it that way you are wrong.

Thanks, Charlie. I could not have stated it better. I watched 60 minutes, too. Raising "petting animals" to be shot by so called "hunters". Pretty pathetic to say the least.

I'd rather shoot my lions from a fair chase situation, if I were to shoot one. The CBS piece was about "Canned hunts" with tame animals that have been raised from birth, with human contact, then stuck inside a small enclosure to be killed , once they mature. Canned hunts are illegal in Texas BTW.

"Canned" hunting dangerous game is but various species of hoofed game are hunted in the same conditions daily in Texas, further proving my point.

Hard to believe how many people believe everything they hear or read. Talk about leading a lamb to slaughter. CBS loves you.

Did you hear about Next weeks program on 60 minutes "Children around the world are starving while Texas hunters use corn to bring Bambi within arrow range".



I'm against "canned hunts" It's just I know the difference . I hunted on a 250,000 acre HF ranch in Africa once. Guess to some it was "canned". Crap my professional hunter must have been an idiot because I had to walked and hunted my a$$ off. Never even saw a Lion. Heard some roaring at night though.

That time I went dove hunting in Argentina and our camp was protected by armed guards... I was canned.
An 8x10 cell to a human is canned. 2,000 acres HF is a resort.

There is a middle ground however who decides how much land that is. "The Government" now gentleman the more and more we allow that to happen we are canned.

I'll throw this out there......

What if 60 minutes did a show on a petting zoo with deer. Showed the owner bottle feeding baby deer in all their glorious spots and cuddling up to customers. Showed full grown deer playing with the owner and him kissing them and petting them. Then all the sudden in the middle of the program they transition to a grainy home video of a person in texas in a blind waiting over a feeder spewing corn and the deer come running. Once they come the guy in the blind makes a shot a little high and breaks the deers back (which we have all seen at one point or another) and the deer tries to run off dragging its back legs - and the hunter still celebrates (which we have all done). The show then goes on to explain how deer are brought from breeders to ranches in Texas and this is what happens to the poor deer.

How is that any different, other than being skewed for the general public by some really good editors? This may be a bit of a stretch but I promise you if 60 minutes decided to take issue with it - they could spin a story better than the one I just did.

I just get so confused on how someone can sit on their high horse while training a deer to come to a feeder like clockwork, so much so that we even get to know every deer that comes to the feeder, and then jump up in arms over how someone else hunts. None of you who are preaching have yet to explain how you justify your method vs other methods - just since it is yours it has to be right.

Again, I am all for hunting over feeders - wish New Mexico would allow it. But I am also for hunting lions if it is legal. And maybe the better question here is why on earth is there a petting zoo for lions?

why does one animal have more value than another? we eat deer, not dogs...

we hunt deer, not rats(generally)... we put arbitrary values on animals. My issue is more, where/how and how legally he got the lions to begin with.

No I don't think that it is sporting to raise an animal by hand and then hunt it. SPORTING, I SAID NOT SPORTING... ethically it is no different than raising cattle.

Now the guy selling the hunts, those are a different set of ethics. Though I will point out that if some Foreigner said he would come a pay 10 grand or more to walk out in the back 40 and shoot Bessie... Bessie would be tied to a stake if that's what the man wanted...

There is a difference in bringing in exotics and releasing them onto a large ranch and letting them roam and hunting them. and bottle feeding and cuddling them then hunting them.

I'm old enough to remember CBS's "The Guns of Autumn". An attack piece that portrayed all hunting as "canned" and/or "unfair" to animals.

In 1975 the entire hunting community circled the wagons and busted CBS's chops so bad that after an attempted sequel to "justify" the original, they NEVER attacked hunting again.

Scroll forward 39 years and voila, the "hunting" community is joining CBS in their attacks hunting.

Going after the low hanging fruit disguises the left's strategic goals... only to the incredibly naive.

Cannibalism will destroy OUR hunting heritage. That OUR includes elitists who want to decide for others what is or isn't hunting.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/pages/never-forgive-never-forget-dan-rather-and-%E2%80%9C-guns-autumn%E2%80%9D

'Hope you don't mind, I fixed the link. I think this is what you intended.

Agree 100%

Canned lion hunting has been beaten to death over on accuratereloading.com; much more African hunting centered and quite a few more "elitists" over there.

A canned lion hunt wouldn't be my cup of tea. But if the laws of South Africa allow it, then our arrogant American liberals should keep their nose out. These same liberals told us South Africa would be paradise if the white's would just give up power. Johannesburg can now boast the highest murder rate in the world, but you won't see that reported; similar to the murders every week in Chicago.

Would I shoot a lion on a truly wild hunt in Zim or Tanzania, if I could justify the cost and had the space for a full-mount? In a heartbeat.

Ha! I NEVER mind technical help...

And I agree 100% with your post as well. Wanna talk Cowboyz??? Heh heh..

Simple.

Hunting is different than just killing something.

It's OK to kill something as long as it's legal. Livestock is slaughtered by the thousands every day to meet our food needs.

The issue that many hunters and non-hunters alike have is when just killing something is called hunting. People draw the lines differently, of course. But that is why there is an issue/debate about it.

What you describe above is simply semantics. It would be fine if people just disagreed on what a word means. But it goes much further than that as you know.

People want to outlaw hunting/killing/whatever you want to call it. Some want to outlaw all hunting, some (like you I believe), would like to see high fenced hunting outlawed.

That's where the rub is. If it simply stayed a debate over semantics, then it would be no issue. However, when semantics are used in the fight to outlaw someone elses personal preference, it becomes something that ALL hunters should oppose.

Because the outlawing of all hunting is the strategic goal of the anti-hunter/killer/whatever you want to call it.

While i agree partially with what you said I think we all need to realize that we are a super apex predator. We have killed hundreds of species off directly and indirectly. Third world countries(as a whole)only care about themselves surviving... Not the wildlife. Those that do are the ones managing their properties. A lot of them look at cats like we look at yotes.

If it wasn't for captive lion releases and breeding what do you think would happen to the lions of Africa? Maybe the same thing as the scimitar oryx or addax ?

Wait speaking of captive releases and exotics explain why the addax and scimitar aren't extinct?

Kinda my thought process. Btw, I haven't joined PETA , never hunted Africa, I hunt over a feeder in Texas. I have read Field and Stream, Playboy and Attaboy. I never have claimed to know much about African Hunting in general.

I am glad there are so many wise mean to school me and a few others in canned, caged, LF,HF hunting. It is just a formed thought from me and others. Not all of us agree nor should we. But if your crystal ball has all the answers, please tell me when I am going to hit the lotto.

Carry on...........

Conservation is fine and laudable. Hunters are and have always been the foremost conservationists.

But that is a different issue. Guy can pay 100K to shoot a pet lion. 100K can go to lion conservation. That doesnt make the "shoot" hunting. And,in a vacuum, the 100K to conservation is a good thing. But, maybe so/maybe no if it generates bad publicity. And, any way you slice it, don't see how anyone can deny raising pet lions for someone to kill and call it "hunting" is a pretty distasteful thing.

Don't play the stupid lotto.

How is your "shoot" hunting when all you are doing is sitting in a blind overlooking a magical machine at 70 yards that despenses corn at the same time everyday and the animals have it patterened? How was that deer "hunted" and not just "shot"? Many would argue you are shooting your pet deer. I am trying to hear justification, but nobody has offered a legitimate rational for it?

Might want to rethink what you criticize if you value your way of hunting, or all hunting will get a big magnifying glass on it someday and then what?

I'm not the one putting the big magnifying glass on hunting. It's the pen/canned shooters doing that. The "60 Minutes" piece wasn't done by hunters.

Problem with calling it all the same is that this actually plays right into the antis hands. So be careful what you wish for. It's not all the same.

P.S. Not that I have anything against feeders, but you don't have a clue how I hunt.

"Fair Chase" is a phrase that will lead to the destruction of hunting for all. There is no "fair chase" in the human predator's tool box unless we kill only turtles, snails and slugs.

We were equipped by God with a very weak body (in comparison to big game animals), and a pretty sharp mind. That brain is what guaranteed our survival. Using it correctly we become the premier apex predator.

Taking it out and playing with it causes us to lock up on what is "fair" to our prey. We are the only predator with that handicap. And relatively soon we'll be eating what's offered at grocery stores instead of what we used to be able to procure with our strong minds and weak bodies. And that grocery meat will be pretty expensive considering the unchecked numbers of predators standing between the pasture and the meat aisle.

You are right, and as long as you are within the confines of the law - I don't care or offer opinions. Just glad that you do hunt, or "shoot", or harvest, or whatever your legally prefered method is.

Using feeders or not by "approving" them you're conveniently ignoring the fact that there are as many folks who vehemently oppose them in both the hunting and anti hunting world, as oppose hf's.

That is simply not true. May make you feel better to say it, but it is not true.

There were several posts about the difference between what we're discussing and shooting deer over feeders as we're known to do here from time to time...

How many of you could step out of your blind while deer are at your feeder and then have those same deer come to you looking for food or companionship? That's the parallel to the hunting they were describing in the 60 minutes piece.

I have no problem hunting over a feeder, it's simply bait that's automated. But I wouldn't do it with "pet" deer. How many people fish with a bare hook? Snagging doesn't count.

Charlie

Pet is an adjective used to paint a very pointed opinion. How many of those pet lions do you think would really eat out of your hand.

Try to book a archery lion hunt let me know about the red tape and disclaimers and why you have a doubles right behind you


With out hunting value those lions will become texas yotes, thus extinct

Thats my point, you have no problem with "your" way....but like to throw stones at other peoples method. Trust me, go tell some bleeding heart animal lover that you hunt over an automated feeder. Try and justify it to them. Then tell them you share their opinion on not hunting lions that used to be at a petting zoo. See if they see the two any differently.....

anybody who thinks a feeder is "magical" and has some pavlovian effect that ALWAYS draws animals in has spent very, very, very little time actually doing the things they are claiming to talk about....

And to play devils advocate. In our current world the only way to get something to continue is for it to have MONITARY value. You can talk about intrinsic value of life all you want. But you want the Lion, elephant, snow leopard, tiger protected. You grow them to a huntible population and then sell very high end hunts. Show the locals the values others put on them for the hunts not for the body parts. then you have a CHANCE at them recovering.

So I'd assume by that logic, you have spent quite a bit of time hunting lions, since you are talking about how hunting them in such a way isnt right?

If y'all want to defend that crap, go ahead. I'm getting older, but I haven't lost all my common sense-yet.

Folks get so rooted in a position they sometimes end up defending the indefensible. That's when our credibility as a whole gets shot.

Some of you are forgetting if it's antis you're worried about then you're worrying about the wrong thing. The method of which the animal is killed is not their concern, the fact that you killed it is. They are antis, they don't care if it's a 8 year old adult black maned lion from the wildest pride in Tanzania or a bottle fed two year old with a name, the fact you killed it is the problem. You will not and can not justify what we do to an anti hunter but they use the supposed "canned" methods to sway the non Hunter in their direction while the hunters piss on each others boots about who is right. Talking to an anti Hunter is a waste of your time, talking to a non-hunter is the best way to show the truth before they see 60 Minutes and believe that that's the way it really is.

I'm turning 68 next week and this is just killing me and the Lion's as well. All kidding aside. The reason I had such a big fit was in the manner this is done. Basically the Lion kittens are bred for petting. People pay big bucks to go pet a lion. Lion get's too big and lets sell it to the outfitter to sell to someone for a canned the hunt and pay 100gs. I don't like it, I don't care for it, but that's ME.

I find it most interesting how a few can spin this and attack a few on here over their believes. So much for united as hunters and all that BS, correct? No one ever has to agree on a method of hunt. We seem to have split hairs here and calling each other out is just making it more interesting and degrading for some. I simply stated an opinion. I don't care for hog hunts with dogs either. Doesn't make me a bad person. I just don't see it as sporting for the dog. I hope I cleared that up more then made it worse. This topic is chasing rabbits for sure.

Just another mans 2 cents worth.

If the lion is bread in an enclosed environment and then turned loose in another enclosed environment, the animal in my opinion is considered livestock. I have no problems with them shooting the said lion. I personally don't consider it sporting or hunting, that does not believe I think its automatically a canned hunt or easy.

Actually I love hunting but there are a few animals I have no desire to kill. I could not shoot a lion, could not shoot an elephant, and could not bring myself to shoot a zebra. I have nothing against those that do. As someone else mentioned if not for their value as "game" the elephants and lions populations would probably be plummeting.

Also like someone else mentioned, why are some animals looked at differently than others? Legally wise, there shouldn't be any distinction. IMO they should all be considered livestock. Trapping wild animals and then shooting in an enclosure would be 100% wrong which is NOT what is happening here.

I'm also one of those guys that hunts over a feeder. Being from Louisiana we never used feeders. Those that tried always had 2 dozen coons waiting in the morning or had bears demolish their feeders within a few days. It was never worth it. But I've learned quickly in West Texas that if you have a small 640 acre lease and hunters on the properties around you are throwing corn, you better throw corn too if you want to see deer. I have yet to see deer come running to the feeder when it goes off.

In fact I've only seen one shooter deer at the feeder this year. He came out at 3:59 and feeder went off at 4:00. Before I could get him in my crosshairs the feeder went off, spooked him, and he took off never to be seen again.

This is my 6th year on the lease. I've yet to shoot a buck under the feeder. I've gotten pictures of shooters at night and have seen them on their trails during the day. But I've pretty much only seen 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old deer at the feeder while hunting. I've always caught the older ones sneaking around the feeder or hanging back in the thicket until the sun set.

Well, at least you're a rather prescient seasoned citizen.

I said that at one time. Then I tried hunting them. A horse they ain't.

I agree your missing out, pretty tasty too!!!



Ed

STOP THE PETTING Close down the petting zoo. Fine the petting zoo for selling Lions. Kill (I mean put to sleep) the cubs when they get to big, make coats from their hides for the poor, sell the meat. Send them to your house so you can hand feed. Raise our taxes so the United States can send $100,000,000.00 to feed the lion. Maybe a lion retirement center. How about extinction or confinement in a zoo cage.("Look Johnny there's the King of Beast") Stop Lion hunting everywhere.

Come on let's hear some solutions. PETA has one "Stop Hunting in any form Period"

P.S. Maybe issue a Hunters Trappers license. People shoot coyotes, raccoons, wolves and rabbits in a trap.

Best post I have read all evening.

Ed

That post reminds me of a well-done lowrider - kind of over the top, but ya gotta appreciate the work put into it.

Oh I understand they aren't a horse, but they look too much like a horse for me to shoot one. Couldn't bring myself to kill a tame rabbit either, but if I cross paths with a cotton tail while armed, he's dinner.

Not at all knocking anyone that does hunt them, I just couldn't make myself pull the trigger.

More interested in shooting a 120-130" buck on my lease that I've worked for.

hmmm... not sure petting zoo lions released to be shot counts as conservation.

hmmmm.... but leaving them in a Zoo to walk in circles the rest of their life is conservation.


Association of Zoo’s and Aquariums; AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums provide society the opportunity to develop unparalleled personal connections with the animals in their care, they also serve as conservation centers that are concerned about ecosystem health, take responsibility for species survival, and make substantial contributions to research, conservation, and education

Reintroduction programs for animals raised or rehabilitated in AZA-accredited zoos or aquariums are powerful mechanisms used for stabilizing, re-establishing, or increasing in situ animal populations. AZA and the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources/Species Survival Commission play key roles in advancing the science of reintroduction programs that AZA and its accredited zoos and aquariums participate in. Numerous reference materials and tools have been developed to advance reintroduction programs

nope and a terrible attempt to try to twist that.

They aren't reintroducing anything, they are mismanaging them and giving in to the asinine prices driven by high demand and low amt of animals. I honestly don't care if they go extinct, will have no bearing on my life, but I'm not naïve enough to consider that conservation.

***Apparently they do it more effectively, since that's what it says on the www.

Preach on brother www.rifleman.com

Was not attempting to twist anything.

So you're comparing a 5 acre trap with tame lions to a 250,000 acre ranch in Africa...Nice try. Give the man a ribbon.

Sheep hunter, I don't normally say this, but help is available.

5 acre trap?

Yes. Probably more like 2 acres. You obviously didn't watch 60 minutes...BTW, they were supportive of the Scimitar horned Oryx hunting in order to preserve the species. Lara Logan had a segment a few months ago that portrayed Texas in a good light, as far as wildlife conservation goes. So much for the tree hugger "liberal" image that you portrayed.

This post has got me thinking about how to make a little extra "walking around" money. I've got two old Border Collies, they're starting to be a pain. Either one, $2000 dollars. Archery or gun, or ball peen hammer to the head while holding out doggie treats. Any takers?...Maybe I should post this in outfitters section?

One thing I've come to understand about anti-hunters is that it is all emotion for them. They used to oppose sport hunting and wanted all surplus game animals to be killed by professional government hunters. Now, I've noticed that in areas like the U.K. where hunting has declined so much that certain species get out of control and they have government culls, they're opposed to that too!

So, I say screw PETA and all anti-hunters and never try to placate them. And I wouldn't stop any kind of hunting in the belief that it "makes PETA's job easier" because they will always find a way to twist what is actually done so that they can present to the public whatever they want to present.

Y'all are missing the point-badly. It's not PETA or the anti-hunters who are the issue. Screw them. But it's the non-hunters who will decide the future of hunting. They are the ones watching hunters and forming opinions.

And, like most people, they are pretty disgusted with pen/canned hunting. If we as hunters defend it, we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We can either police ourselves or end up being policed by others.

There's some stuff not far from that on there every day.

They ain't turning them loose in a 5 acre trap. Buddy shot one and they had trackers on it for over 50 miles. Those ranches are more like the Wagner or King size

I don't know what you watched but it never once mentioned the size of the place the hunts took place on. It showed a lion eating a carcass hung in a tree. Again same thing as your corn feeder if 60 minutes decided to take issue with that.

I don't care what any of you do, but don't call it hunting.

If there was a market and it was legal you might get takers. But it's not legal and there is no market. If you both hate capitalism, China is one flight away.

If you try and convince yourself they have more of a problem with canned hunts than they do with hunting over feeders you are either incredibly blinded, or have never been out of texas. Picking and choosing to what's convenient to you and ignoring the truth is a bit North Korean. Kim Jung Un golfed a 34 on 18 holes the first time he played golf.

Are you and therancher one and the same? Just curious.....

Ha no, that's offensive. I'm much younger and better looking than him. Typically not as outspoken, but I'll call bs on hypocracy when I see it. It's a character flaw engraved deep in our gene pool.

There is a murder for hire and sex slavery market. But, I guess that OK with you too. After all, it's just capitalism, right?

You're pretty good at twisting aren't you? And real good at picking and choosing for your argument like I pointed out. Like I said LEGAL, but good job sticking to what's convenient to your argument. My 7 year old nephew is awesome at that as well.

I will say this one more time, I do not know what was on 60 minutes, as I did not watch it nor care to. I will tell you I have been to Africa more than my fair share. I have seen operations that hunt lion in South Africa, The ones I have been associated with, are doing the hunting correctly as I see. If a client books a hunt, the Lions they are released 15 to 30 days in advance on an open farm (usually 5000 to 15,000 ac--guys that is between 8-20 square miles, most of you guys spouting have never even been on a place this size--I own 4,800 ac with my brother and sister and most folks think it is a lot larger than it is--all I am saying is most have no perception of size) then are tracked on foot with trackers. This is done mostly in the Kalahari as the sand allows for this, in some cases more than one lion is released to track up. The cat is tracked and pushed until it holds it's ground, then is shot or the lion charges. Most of the lions have little fear of humans, which makes them even more dangerous, in the cases I am talking about the lions are not "drugged" they are fully awake, have usually killed a couple animals on the open farm and adjusting to the open fine. On the The other hand, most of the wild lion hunting done today. You go to the areas that the Lions prefer, usually where the buffalo hang out, And you take a half a hippo carcass, or a quarter elephant, or half a buffalo. Hang it in a tree, usually The same tree that has been hunted many times,almost out of reach and wait for a male to hit it (hell you are "corn"ing him in). Then you wack him as he feeds or under the tree after he has just fed and has a full belly and is trying to sleep. Guys that is how it is! If you want to do it,great! I might,and if I want a Lion then I will probably have to shoot a this way as it is affordable, and offers a good chance at a good male. I have never been that hot on cat hunting, I have leopard hunting a bit, and found it slow and non enjoyable to me. Like I said in an earlier post, Buffalo an elephant are more enjoyable to me for dangerous game.

One of the big misconceptions in this whole thing, is people get tied up in the size and area that they are hunting in. I don't want to hunt in a 5 acre pen Granted, but in most open concessions lions, buffalo,elephant are found in certain areas, areas that they prefer (plant life,cover,water,ect.) I have a friend of mine that has a concession in Mozambique, it is about 800,000 acres. He hunts Buffalo on about 12,000 of it.why? that's where the buffalo are! We are hunters enjoy hunting! And for those of you who think it's a shoot in Africa, I will set you up a safari where you get challenged! Have a good week!

Ed

I don't take issue with the fencing situation in Africa in the vast majority of cases. Africa has a whole different set of issues that are unique-primary among them the rampant poaching problem.

Africa does not have the wildlife management $$ or infrastructure that North America has. The dollars sport hunting provides are absolutely essential to the health of the species in many cases.

The recent elephant hunting ban fiasco is a prime example of politics over wildlife management/propagation.

In short, the Africa issues are unique.

X2 I would never take anything CBS showed as Gospel.

I have to agree 100%. The people who participate in canned hunts are a very small minority of "hunters" but they give the anti-hunters the most ammo to use against us. I think it's time that we kick them to them to the curb and say, "We are ethical hunters and real conservationists. They do not represent us, they are not one of us."

Some of what you mention is correct, but you are wrong about some. South Africa is a shining example of conservation--and has a lot of $$$ and infrastructure, I know three breeders in south Africa that have shipped Buffalo, Roan,and Sable, all over southern Africa for restocking programs in open areas. The breeding program is actually getting in the way of the hunting program as the prices are outpacing what hunters will pay. I had a friend dart a Kudu that was 62 inches, it sold for $35,000 US-as a breeding bull. This is not healthy as the animals will be used for hunting in the end, and the prices cannot be sustainable in that light.

Wild Africa is in trouble! I was in an area last year that has been poached quite heavily, it will take areas like that are in South Africa, to return the game and help open areas regain the game that belong there. If some of the countries government can stay out of the way, and let private enterprise like game breeders and hunting take hold, they will see what a great renewable resource they have, and hunting will continue. If not, get your tickets for the zoo.

Ed

I live in new mexico and I can promise you that a majority of people here (as uneducated as they may be) look at hunting in Texas as canned hunts. You have to understand that coming from a state where you can't even shoot a doe during deer season, and over bait would just be downright unethical not to mention illegal - hunting in Texas looks silly. I went to college in California, I won't even get into how people look at hunting in Texas from that point of view. It isn't right, I don't agree with it - and hunters should support hunters, trappers, shooters, whatever word you put to it. But they don't, and look at how we get to hunt in New Mexico now because of it....is that really what you want for Texas? Every time I go hunt in Texas and I tell buddies here I am going, its always the same song and dance..."You mean you are going to go sit over the feeder and wait for the deer to come to you? What a hunt that must be."

Maybe they are jealous, maybe they think their way is the right way - either way division of hunters is more of a threat than division of nonhunters. The other thing is - you were raised your way, doesn't mean it is the only way or the right way - but it is the way you know. You can dislike other ways and chose not to participate, but what does throwing fits and taking sides look like long term? What if they outlawed your way of hunting? What if the rules from your neighboring state became the new rules for your state? Be careful what you wish for.

I have traveled and hunted all over North America. I have heard a lot of criticism about hunting in Texas. In fact, we have largely become a laughingstock. But, NOT because of feeders. Feeders have been common for decades. It's because of the HFs that are all the rage in TX. That's all I hear. We are known as the "canned hunt capital of the world". Makes me sick to my stomach.

But, in a way, you make my point. If other hunters don't like feeders (as you say), what do you think they think about HFs? Even more to the point, what do you think non-hunters think about them?

See again, feeders are convienent to you - so they get a free pass. High fences are what you pick to pick on. My hunting buddies in California and many in New Mexico are oblivious to high fences, but they aren't to feeders. Not all of them, but many of them don't even know the differene between a high fence and a low fence and what can and can't get out of them or what they are designed for. But they do know that a feeder spewing corn is very "different".

Do you really believe that if I drove one of my buddies out from California who has never been to Texas is going to notice a fence that is 2 feet higher than the other ones, over walking into a blind and just sitting their over a weird machine out in the middle of the field that starts to spew corn? I did this experiment, when we got back all the talk to our other friends was not about the fences being 2 feet higher - but we had years of talks about the "corn machines" everywhere.

Those same hunter that despise TX style hunting also despise large private ranches in their home state.

I've hunted all over the U.S. also. Mid west guys can't fathom continuous ranches over 1000 acres, nor can the fathom the brush country.

When you break it down for them it's highly enlightening especially with our deer densities.

I see you've been on Monster Muleys too.

Go back 20-30 years. Texas was revered as one of the premier whitetail hunting states in the country. Feeders were commonplace.

Fast-forward to now. A different story.

Bobo, I have never had an experience in the Rockies or the Canadian wilderness where the folks weren't intimately familiar with big country and big ranches in big country. In fact, that's why they abhor HFs.

Everybody has different experiences I guess......

I've also traveled throughout the United States. If your against it and your mind is set then why would they argue with you. We can't argue with you on THF. Your mind is set and there is no way to change it.

I have had the opposite reaction maybe because we have an open discussion.

They are not arguing with me. I spend most of my time explaining it's not all that way in TX.

I think New Mexicans hating Texans is way bigger than hunting styles. Maybe it's 'cause we own a lot of the good parts of NM. Or maybe that trivial detail with the actual state line being further east than originally delineated and we've taken oil and gas royalty taxes on the western strip for decades.

Tried to do business in NM for years. Everyone seems to have the attitude of that character in the movie Bridesmaids - "Help me, I'm poor."

Just doing my part to take the thread as far off the original subject as possible.

Great point, NP.

Haha as much as I hate to admit it, you are pretty accurate here.

I find it amusing that the folks defending canned hunts, never even watched the 60 minutes program. It speaks volumes. Deny, deny, deny. And BOBO, they weren't hunting over a 50 mile area. In fact, they weren't "hunting" at all.

Hence I said mid west.

You tell me what the difference is in a 380-400 LF elk on an Indian reservation or big NM ranch vs 5k acre HF hunting wise....

None....

In fact had a buddy call me in NM and said I have a 380-390 bull that's needs to be taken he is 8now. You want to come up over thanksgiving I have LO tags..... He has been watching that bull for years...he sells 1-2 hunts a year on his LF ranch...,

There's some stuff not far from that on there every day. [/quote]

If there was a market and it was legal you might get takers. But it's not legal and there is no market. If you both hate capitalism, China is one flight away. [/quote]

There is a murder for hire and sex slavery market. But, I guess that OK with you too. After all, it's just capitalism, right? [/quote]Great point, NP. [/quote]

Ok pickers and choosers. I am now convinced you both are either lawyers or Al Sharpten and Jesse Jackson. Way to run with one of the two criteria I pointed out. Ferguson loves you!

I'm waiting for 60 Minutes to run a pro hunting segment of any kind. You watch because your anti-HF. Fuels your fire.

Lol I think same thing every time I hunt deer in Texas.... Especially when your sitting on an oat feild with 60 plus deer on it...

Thought same thing when we filled 60 MLD doe tags in two days

Think same thing driving down the hwy trying to miss deer with the pick up.

I think same thing when I set at a feeder and have mature 4.5-5.5 year old deer every sit

You want to call a spade a spade lets do it!!!! Let's not pick and choose.

We've Killed record book antelope in hunts that took more time driving from ranch house to pasture then it did to get out of the truck and shoot them.

I watched several 170-200" LF deer grow to 6.5. Got years of history on them? How is that possible?

I've gotten CDP for antelope and watched 15 of them fall in 20 mins,

When your the top apex predator with weapons that are easily mastered only you determine how hard you want to make a hunt


Give me a break how many species have we almost or have killed to extinction...lol hunting...



Any animal in North America you can buy a LF record.... Period

Dang it Texas Tatonkas needs to tell the deer on my lease, especially the trophy bucks, that they have to come to my feeder when it spews corn on the ground. These darned things don't seem to be very well trained.

I don't see the point of shooting a lion for sport. If you have the money and place for the trophy cool. But most of us with land or leases would shoot a mountain lion just knowing the calves and deer that they kill to protect our investment. I'm pretty sure the locals have issues with lions over there as well.

Since Andy Rooney died I don't watch 60 Minutes. And that was the only two minutes I used to watch.

Oh I watched it, never showed a fence - never specified acres. Showed a lion eating a leg tied to a tree then getting shot. Hmmmm.....an animal getting shot over a food source, where have I seen that kind of hunting?

Again, for the record - I am pro feeders. But I will point out the point of view for you to see from non-hunters and even hunters in states that dont allow feeders.

So, y'all are all for "canned" hunts? I wonder why they're illegal in Texas? Kinda' hard to defend the indefensible. The Al Sharpton reference was duly noted too. When you don't have a leg to stand on, you just make rude comments. I see how you roll, TT.

I hunt in states that don't allow feeders. They wish they could use them too.

Be gentle on him, he's just jealous AND envious he doesn't live in Tx.

Charlie

Canned? You mocked my buddy that tracked a released lion for 50miles!!!! Lol

You should book a hunt and video it feeding out of your hand...maybe then I will consider it canned. But then again I have deer that are LF and do that in Texas but then again they don't have the ability to eat you

A 50 mile trek is a REAl hunt, BOBO. I'm sure the lion your buddy killed wasn't bottle fed and released from a petting zoo either.

Sadly this is a correct statement. But I was born there, so when you secede I just hope that allows me to come back.

I'm hunting back yard bucks in Ohio in 3 weeks. The stands are 40 yards from houses and the deer lay in the yards but they are free range and born in the "wild", is this ok? They are wild non baited deer. The week after that I'll be hunting northern michigan around some sugar beats in the snow where the deer will be eating them because of the temps and deep snow but these are northern Michigan whitetail, wild as can be and hunted hard. Is this fair? There's bait but they aren't accustomed to people.
The answer is I don't give a damn what people think, I do it the way I want within the law and if it feels right to me Im fine with it. I can tell you this from experience, the baited deer in michigan where it's SO easy to kill them because you just sit and wait, will be twice as hard to kill as the non baited Ohio whitetails that are not high fenced and are "wild free range" deer. I will kill them both, I will eat them both, I will feel not guilty about doing it and I will not apologize to anyone for it.
Too many are so judgmental they don't understand the world outside of their little home range where they feel comfortable and until they have been there or seen what others do they can never understand.

Rude? I made an assumption, I learned that from you. By assuming what they showed on 60 minutes was a 5 acre pen. Guess we both look stupid for making assumptions.

It was a released lion.

Why do you think those "petting" zoos sale the adults? Think about kittens vs adults


Any time you see a long maned lion it was released.. Short maned most likely released a long time ago or born there

I hunted ibex in New Mexico a few weeks back, they were free range not over feeders (pretty dang hard to hunt too). Some people complain because they are not native and shouldnt be introduced. The week before that I shot a deer on a high fence ranch from a blind. I shot pigs from helicopters. I shot pigs from a pen I trapped it in. I shot coyotes, bobcats, skunks, and badgers from snares. I had pet deer at my house in New Mexico where I could shake a bowl of corn and they would come running (no fence, free range) and when legal season came, I shot them. All of this was legal, in all of these scenarios people could find something to complain about.....as hunters and trappers - why do we have to be the ones who complain the most. The end.

This is fun, so another scenario.....desert bighorns. Their populations declined. So they were raised, bottle fed, bred by breeders, pet by their breeders, and then released to be hunted. So are you guys against that as well, you would never hunt a bottle fed and pet desert bighorn? Or is that ok?

I am going to repeat myself.

It doesn't matter *how* much we restrict hunting. Shows like 60 Minutes will find a way to mislead about that hunting to call for more restrictions -- and the sorts of people who are producers and editors for TV shows want to end ALL hunting -- not just sport hunting. They want to end ALL killing of animals by man. If they finally, far in the future, get all sport hunting banned, and all government cropping banned, then they will start in on killing animals to eat. These people want us all living in cities and eating fruits and vegetables grown in hydroponic high-rises.

Only a small percentage of people will want to hunt a tame lion released into a 5 acre pen. This sort of thing is self-limiting.

There will always be certain groups of hunters who cringe and look down on certain things such as(What I've heard in person and from other fourms/articles):

Exotics, introduced game, private land, private ownership of animals, guided hunts, international hunting, hunting anywhere but your home state, feeders, food plots, rifles, modern muzzleloaders, crossbows, tree stands, callers, hunting of higher end animals(the sheep species), trophy hunting, shooting of all size deer, antler restrictions, high fences, low fences, hunting in Texas, high fences under 1000 acres, high fences under 5000 acres, not hunting on Big name ranches, put and take ranches....blah blah blah blah blah.

It gets tiring.

United we Stand, Divided we Fall.

You forgot the pointed stick guys, or maybe they're in the "blah blah blah blah blah."

In Ruidoso NM, mountain LION hunts

BTW jackwads, where did I ever say I believe CBS? Matter of fact in my opening statement I sad "liberal CBS" I feel like I am in the court room with Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Crump. Come on fellas..............................

Red herrings. I don't hear hunters fussing amongst each other much about any of that stuff-but the HF and ARs.
And ARs are not a hunting method, just a management issue.

Damn guys, you all don't think someone inside PETA is watching and monitoring this thread for their gain? Hunter against hunter is a great story for them. QUIT POSTING HUNTER ON HUNTER BICKERING NOW. Delete this thread moderators. Everyone has their opinions. My 2 cents.

For those who haven't seen it, the story was not so much about canned hunts, but a story about a guy who worked for a lion breeder who raised cubs for people to pet, and what happens to the lions after they are grown.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-lion-whisperer/

Agreed; but you will never convince the caveman. His language is blah...blah...blah I'm right....blah...blah... you wrong. Blah..blah, you present facts mean you twist my truth...Blah...Blah...Everyone love my way... Blah...Blah...If you stop your way all problems go away. Blah...Blah.. Everyone then be friend of me great hunter. Blah.... Blah. Non-hunter become my friend, PETA go away. World be perfect.. Blah...blah.

Damn guys! Don't you all think someone inside PETA is watching and monitoring all those penned up animal hunts for their gain? Shooting penned up animals is a great story for them. QUIT SHOOTING ANIMALS IN A PEN. Delete the pens legislators. Everyone has their opinion. My 2 cents.


FIFY.

PETA has their own problems PETA KILLS
AND AGAIN

Some will bow down to PETA.... I will not.

I don't worry about PETA. He shouldn't either. No changing their minds. I worry about the non-hunters whose minds can be changed.

Just making the point if you were worried about them the pens you see every day along every road in TX are way more prominent to everyone than an internet forum for hunters.

If a non-hunter makes up his or her mind about hunting by simply driving down the highway and seeing a HF, their idiots. How would they notice their to busy driving while texting or talking on their cell phone while listing to an Obama CD!

I've taken a few non-hunters to a "good" HF ranch and your right it changed their mind. They hunt today HF & LF. Why because I made sure they understood there's more to hunting than just opening a gate, or watching a feeder. You would be surprised how little fence they ever saw.
I'm sure you still disapprove. So therefore you can have the last word.

For the love of all things Holy, this thread needs to die.

You do know his definition of canned is anything behind any high fence right?? You and NP can want to kick us to the curb. But you'll wear your azz out trying, and the results will suck.

NP stated:

"I have traveled and hunted all over North America. I have heard a lot of criticism about hunting in Texas. In fact, we have largely become a laughingstock. But, NOT because of feeders. Feeders have been common for decades. It's because of the HFs that are all the rage in TX. That's all I hear. We are known as the "canned hunt capital of the world". Makes me sick to my stomach. "

While it's nice and convenient to protect your pet "cheating" by implying it has a lesser impact. You have no facts to back up your claim. The people of 38 states have outlawed hunting over feeders. Not nearly that many have outlawed hf's.

Those facts bit u square in the azz again NP.

My definition of a "canned hunt" would be exactly what they are talking about in the 60 Minutes piece. I have posted a link above to the entire piece if you haven't seen it. Literally raising animals in a petting zoo and then releasing them into an enclosure to be shot is a canned hunt. If you don't do that, then I wasn't talking about you.

Then trust me, you don't agree with NP.

I don't because I do hunt in other states and the deer hunters I know watch the hunting shows of hunts in Texas and would like to come here and hunt. But that's deer not a lion. And this ain't Africa. It's Texas. So why is our feeders and high fences even part of the discussion?

Every time I see that video I am amazed someone doesn't get shot. I bet they all sat and looked at each other for a few minutes wondering what had just happened.

He was just coming up to eat out of their hand!



Ed

Definitely a despicable canned hunt.

I would have just thrown them out instead of trying to clean them.

I saw a high fence in the background.