Hunt with or without E collar?

I have a young vizsla, she a little over a year old. She recalls great with or with out the e collar, follows commands etc. never been any issues with obedience. I've been really working on her whoa training and holding steady until shot. Some times she holds great then sometimes she doesn't so I have to use the collar.

My biggest complaint about her is that she stays a little to close when hunting, she normally ranges around 30-50 yards depends on cover. I really would like to she her range around 75-100 yards. Well today after I thought we were done hunting I took her collar off as I was packing up getting ready to leave. I look up and she's on point about 80 yards out and was holding nicely. So I grabbed my gun and went to her and got a single. After that she was working out around 100 yards without her collar, which I think is ideal. FYI when its on I rarely use it and its not gps.

So my question is do you always put a E collar while hunting? Do you think I should try hunting her without to see if her range increases or do you think I should continue to use it until i get her fully trained to hold until shot? It seems like she also runs better and harder without.

I don't always use one.

Depends on the dog - I have to run my male on one but every dog is different. If you're gonna let her range out in thick cover just run a gps collar if your comfortable with her mannerisms. I run a dual setup bc mine likes to cover ground and is stubborn.

The gyp I have now runs way close with her collar on. Without it she hunts and runs much better. When reinforcing commands during training I use the collar on her. While hunting I'm old school. Lots of praise when she does well and picking her up by the ears and delivering a beating when she does wrong.

Quick question: What does "steady to shot" mean for you? Is it sending the dog once the bird has fallen, or taking off once the shooting starts, whether or not the bird is killed? A "Shot" does not always mean a bird was killed.

"Steady to wing and shot" typically means the dog does not retrieve the bird until sent. With a pointer that is trained to be steady to wing and shot, "whoa" is a standing stay.

In any event, I do not recommend trying to train your dog(with or without an e-collar) while hunting. Because when you are hunting you want to shoot birds. When you are training, you want to train your dog. In a training environment, get your dog to the level you want and then go hunting. Get someone else to shoot whenever you can.

During hunting, the e-collar is optional but sometimes a nice to have for those times when you encounter something hunting that was never done during training. Case in point, this past fall I was hunting pheasants when my retriever flushed 3 wild turkey out of heavy cover. She sat on flush and was steady to wing. When I released her to quarter again, I just applied one simple "nick" to make sure she turned away from the direction they flew and proceeded to work a new area for pheasants.

Relative to range... Most range is inherent in a dog/breed. Over time, in light cover, and without correction for recalling your dog, she will find that max range.

She's steady until shot fired. If bird drops she retrieves, if bird is missed she'll run 10 yards as she watches the bird fly away then get back to searching for birds. I know a lot of guys like to send there dog on command, and I'm trying to work towards that goal but I also like hunting her this season. My goal during the off season is to get her to that point.

We trial them in NSTRA without one. On the other hand she will increase her range with age and experience.

I always use one. I have seen great dogs turn stupid.

When I tested my dog I had to go without a collar and I had no issues, but I was scared.

Maybe am missing something but am not sure why the dog would range further without the shock collar. Are you constantly using it when it's on the dog? Sounds like you are heavy handed with it on and the dogs knows when it's off. It should not matter whether it's on or not as far as range goes. In any event, I would keep the shock collar on always until I was fully confident in the dogs obedience.

Sounds like your heavy handed with a sensitive dog.

Not at all I used it twice yesterday over a 2 hr period, both times was when she chased after a flushed bird.

I always use one and I have dogs broke as hard as you can find one. Like mentioned above, whether I use one or not, all dogs turn stupid for a few minutes every once in a while. The collar is my reinforcement. It doesn't cost me anything to let them wear the collars and it gives me a sense of control in my mind. I have a female setter that is as good a bird finder as I have ever had. At least once a weekend, she has slipped away in her mind to a point where she can start putting birds to flight....rooting them out. I disciplined her pretty hard about it 2 weekends ago. I saw her at about 1/2 mile away from me late Saturday afternoon attempting to do the same. After I popped her a couple of times with the collar, she came back in with her feelings hurt a little, but she went back to hunting with her manners intact again. I could see the effects of the discipline on Sunday morning. She went out on the first round and pointed six coveys of birds to perfection. The collar when used properly is the greatest tool we have as bird hunters. Put it on the dog every time out. You will be sorry if you didn't.

I have 2 V's (male 5yo & female 7yo) with 2 different personalities. One thing that I always have to remind myself is that the most mature they will become is that of a 10yo kid. That in mind all pups will try you at one time or another, & the more they get away with the more bold they will become. When they do not obey your command you just need a tool to backup your command & remind them you're the pack leader. Nowadays I use the tone function more than anything else as a reminder. My female though is a little more strong minded & sometimes needs a touch more than the tone. Regardless I am more relaxed when the collars are on my pups when they're running around in the bush.

As far as your pup running & hunting further with it off this one time, IMHO it seems like an isolated event. Many factors here that could have affected her decision on that hunt.. Where was the wind? How long was she free without the collar? etc. When it comes to the training I try not to limit myself to single events, but rather to look for patterns.

Good luck with your training. It sounds like you already have the making of a good pup that enjoys doing what comes natural for her. Just remember she's still a pup & developing her own style of hunting with experience.

Yes wouldnt do it without it and my wife put one on me when I go to Cabelas and Bass Pro

How did you collar condition your dog?

With my dog I had her wearing the e-collar from 7 wks old when we first got her. She only wore the collar when we would take our 'discovery' walks,any of her first bird contacts along with any training and 'fun stuff'. She now gets really excited when she sees any type of e-collar because she knows the fun is about to begin. It sounds like your dog maybe collar wise and may need to spend some time with the collar on but without any type of reinforcement from the collar. Your dog shouldn't know the collar means correction.

I haven't read all the posts, but I'm with Bill. The range will increase with age, as long as you don't hammer her with the collar. It also depends on how young "young" is. Is that six months or a year and a half or two years. If it's towards the younger portion, I wouldn't worry with a collar if you can get her back. At that age the collar is more for security than anything. Let the dog have fun and bust birds.

She's 14 months

I've gotten several response's about using the ecollar too much but I don't thinks its really the case. For example i used it twice over a 2-2 1/2 hr hunt, which both times it was because she chased a flushed bird. And she's not really sensitive to commands or the collar. I live in a neighborhood in the city so obedience is a must which she is really good with, I'm thinking it may carry over to the field and assumes shes not suppose to roam that far since she cant while at home. I try to take her on long walks /runs in different fields a few times a week.

Even when were out on fun runs with no collar she likes to stay close and with in 40-50 yards of me. About every 5 minutes she looks up to find where I'm at, if I'm to far away from her (in her mind) she runs to me within a few feet then back out she goes. Without any commands it seems she just likes to check in with me. I don't think I could run off and leave her if i tried. Hunting is a little different she likes to stay in her comfort zone but she hunts hard just close, but I would have to physically remove her once shes on a bird.

Range is inhearted. You can do things to shorten them up or to stretch them out, but don't expect a big change. Most pups will increase their range as they get older.

I collar mine, that alone gets their attention.
Rarely do they get anything other than tone.

While she just maybe a closer working dog, it could also be she doesn't want to make a mistake with the ecollar on. Some vizslas can overthink things, even if you have been easy with the ecollar.
I would try and run her in open fields. Plant birds very far apart, and refrain from handling her. If she starts to come to you, don't praise or pet her. Just send her to the front. Don't be quick to flush the birds, let her make a mistake without you saying a word. If she looks toward you while on point, ignore her.
This is just a way to see if she needs more confidence in the field, or if she is just a closer working dog. I'd stop running with her on trails, or heavily wooded areas. That just reinforces her to stay close.

Vizslas in general are close working dogs. Every dog has it's own personality so some will not always fit that mold, but most will. Some can have their behavior shaped to range farther, some probably can't. One of the reasons I chose the Vizsla is because i usually hunt small public properties and I needed a close hunting breed of dog for that reason. My Vizsla Dash will often range far if the cover is open or as the hunt goes read into what is expected of him. One thing I have learned is Vizslas are what I call thinking dogs and if handled a lot in a particular activity will soon adapt to that and expect to be handled during that activity. Handle them too much, and too harsh, and they will protest and shut down which can include not ranging far away from you. When I started doing hunt tests with Dash I over handled. My Vizsla before him, Blaze was a different personality, the kind we only get to own once in a lifetime, and I hunted her differently than most as well. It was almost as if I could take a knee with her, draw a plan in the dirt, do a high five, and tell her to go run three laps around that tree and come back to heel. And she would understand and do it. She hunted the way I wanted her for the day, and went and did what I told her. An Ecollar was never used or needed to train or hunt her. Dash on the other hand is a stubborn, independent, thinking dog that was a little harder to change his his Kings heart to a servants heart. Still, I wanted to handle as little as possible on upland to keep him thinking and independent to work out the hunt on his own, but at the same time wanted to handle him for retriever tests. More than once I had a judge or professional handler on a pointer hunt test tell me I needed to put tape on my mouth and my hands in my pocket and let my dog hunt before I got it. For him an ecollar is used for negative reinforcement training, but only if needed after the desired behavior is shaped with positive reinforcement. But never on a hunt. In other training I might used it for avoidance training like not to chase hogs, but I try to keep that to actual training, is a one time deal, and not on the hunt. On the hunt most of the time I do not use an ecollar as negative enforcement. I might have him wear it for tracking or tone recall if it is a place I know he will be ranging out of sight. Or in areas with dangers like porcupines, bears, busy roads, etc. that I may have to immediately stop him for safety reasons and have only had to do that once. Or randomly worn during a hunt to keep him conditioned to wearing a collar without associating it with something bad. I rarely if ever use it as a negative stimulus to stop bad behavior on a hunt. It is hard not to if that tool is on your hip and your angry with the dog, so it takes some self control sometimes. I am not a purist and enjoy the carefree self thinking, problem solving kind of dog to hunt with so I don't expect my dog to be perfect anyway. I admit too I may cause confusion sometimes by using him in so many different types of hunting or activities, just like that pointer hunt test example I gave. But if a behavior gets out of hand, I take note of it and strive to later work a plan to fix it in training, not on the hunt with the collar.

I wouldnt knick her for chasing birds unless she has had plenry of birds shot over her