Force Fetch Revisited

Question regarding my pup during force fetch.

I've done 4 sessions so far (2 days, morning and evening) of 4-5 hand inserts each session so far.

My dog struggled the first session for about 30 seconds on the first hand insert and as soon as he stopped I gave the command for drop and removed the hand. Subsequent hand inserts he sat and looked at me with no struggle with my hand in his mouth (from the point I inserted it to the point I took it out). He does struggle when I'm trying to insert my hand in his mouth but as soon as its in he stops.

Evening session he struggled for about 10 seconds the first insert, then same deal... no struggle on subsequent inserts (I'm leaving my hand in for about 30 seconds-2 minutes even though there is no struggle).

Since then, I place my gloved hand in the back of his mouth and he doesn't struggle at all... he just sits there and looks at me with my hand in his mouth.

My question is two fold:

1. Since force fetch is based on pressure on/ pressure off, if the dog is already comfortable with something in his mouth and isn't struggling (i.e., pressure on), how do I know when to take it out (i.e., pressure off) so that he associates no struggle with release of pressure? This is the main issue for me because lack of struggle is what is supposed to dictate removal of object.

2. Should I continue with a few days of 2 sessions of hand inserts even though he doesn't struggle anymore, or go ahead and proceed to jowl/ear pinch pressure?

A few things to note regarding the force fetch process I am following:

The plan was to introduce hold command after about 4-5 days of simply inserting my gloved and and removing it, once the dog quit struggling, then proceed to jowl pinch pressure with intro of hold command, then ear pinch with hold command, then adding different objects other than my hand, then go back and do the whole process over with collar pressure.

Does anyone see anything standing out that I am doing wrong based on my description of the process I am following?

Thanks again!!!

Which program are you following?

I'm not an expert and there are probably a million different theories but one that I remember being explained fairly clearly was Freddie King

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5AdmNosUyc

There's a whole series so his take on what you're looking for may be in Video 11 or 12 or something. I just posted the first in the Force Fetch portion of his training.

Your thought process is all wrong. The pressure hasn't even started yet. The point is to convey to the dog that pressure is off when something is in his mouth. That is the good time, not when he drops. This is why you are teaching hold before you start with pressure, to get him comfortable with something in his mouth so he can turn pressure off.

I would suggest a lot more study or finding someone that can help you before proceeding.

Tony,

What you said makes perfect sense. I am in the stage of teaching hold and getting him comfortable right now. I didn't phrase my original post very well. For this first stage, I am considering my hand being in his mouth and being uncomfortable as "pressure," and having him release it when he calms down as "pressure off," so to speak.

I've been researching force fetch for quite awhile, and I reference Freddie's you tube videos and both Dokken's book and Waterdog. The program for FF seems pretty close to the same thing, although they differ on when "hold" is introduced.

I'm going to work him a few more days on just the glove with no pressure, then transition to jowl pressure with hold, then ear pinch, then collar.

Thanks everyone for the responses :-)

I personally don't use a hand, I start with a canvas bumper. When the pup can successfully do heel, here and sit with a bumper in it's mouth it's ready for force fetch.

Robby

I do fetch and hold at the same time. I would also start with a wood dowel similar to the other suggestions above. You will need both your hands for this.

The ear pinch creates the pressure for the dog to open the mouth(beginning of a yelp), at the same time say "fetch" in a calm, and quiet voice. Use one of your hands to do the pinch - I pinch the ear to the metal collar (pinch collar or choke chain). Use the other hand to hold the dowel and get ready to place it quickly in the dog's mouth. Have the dowel in front of the dog's mouth before you apply the ear pinch pressure and say fetch.

As soon as the dowel is in the dog's mouth, release the pinch, take your hand that had the dowel and place it under the mouth(or the other hand if it works for you), pull that skin together to tighten the dog's mouth on the dowel and say "hold" at the same time.

Gradually release the pressure from under the mouth if your dog is holding the dowel. Reapply the pressure under the mouth and say "hold" if the dowel gets wobbly. If the dowel falls out before you got the dog to hold just pick it up and move back to fetch. You will need some practice on this.

While the dog is "holding", use your hand that was doing the pinch and rub their head. In other words, you are releasing the hold pressure and making the dog very comfortable while holding. What they are doing is a good thing. Tony is spot on regarding this. NO pressure is applied when the dog is doing the right thing.

Have the dog release with "give" and gently take the dowel from the dog's mouth. Use lots of praise.

Start with very short intervals on hold and increase this during your sessions.

Repeat 4-5 times each session.

When your dog is solid with the dowel from in front of him/her, then on the ground, then while walking up to the object, then you move to other objects like real bumpers and start the whole process over.

Dokken's method is actually very similar to what I like to do. Note: he starts with a table. Some sort of restraint and a table makes it easier. I have used tables and they work great. If you do not have this, just be prepared to get on the ground next to your dog and possibly have a bit more of a struggle. If your dog is collar conditioned through obedience then you can eventually combine the e-collar and pinch pressure at the same time, gradually moving to just the e-collar. You do not need an e-collar for this. It is just another tool.

I suggest no fun bumpers or any other retrieving while you go through this, not from you or the kids. Remember, from this point on your dog needs to fetch on command and hold until commanded to release.

This process is not easy and can be frustrating, even with the best of retrievers. Try to always finish a session good with success for you and your dog.

I usually start with 4-5 fetch/holds per session (2x or 3x per day) and gradually grow from there. Spend the rest of your training time on obedience.

Give yourself a couple of weeks for this.

Mistakes will happen and it is no big deal. Just try to end each session positively.

Perfect Jay.

Thanks for the advice Jay. It really helps to have people with experience point me in the right direction.

I'll try and post some pictures of my set up for FF, and I'll switch him over to a dowel this afternoon to see how he does with it.

Since I've started, I haven't thrown any bumpers like you said. Everything I have researched said not to do that until the entire process is complete.

If your dog has a strong desire already you might look into Hillmann's method. It's a non ear pinch method that is much simpler IMO and less easier to screw up.

I think for a first time trainer who doesn't have experience with traditional FF methods it is really great. The dog must already have a lot of drive though or it won't work. If done after following his puppy program your dog should have a strong desire already.

There are many trainers having lots of success and training dogs at very high levels using this method.

Just something to think about. When the time comes for myself to FF I'll have to decide which route I want to take. It will all depend on the dog for me.

Great advice from Robbie, Tony and Jay. FF your first dog is a mess for you, not so much the dog. I remember leaning on a big midwest pro for help when I went through it the first time. It killed me... He talked us through it. Every evening I'd call him with a progress report exclaiming, "This is NOT how it went in your seminar".... He was patient, I was a mess,,, but we got it done.

Angie

Thanks Angie! That's encouraging. I should probably have a professional do it but I've gone this far with it so I might as well go all the way I figure. Just to update everyone, I had a small snag with him injuring his leg. Vet said to keep working him but not anything real strenuous for a few days. It kind of worked out that we were starting FF and all he is doing is sitting on a table holding a dowel. I was doing some obedience after to keep him interested but holding off on that for few days. I'm not letting him jump up or down off the table for now of course.

Introduced hold with dowel and am just tapping his nose saying hold over and over for about 5-7 times depending on how well he is holding it. He's getting the concept now as he is starting to figure out hold means keep it firmly in his mouth. He doesn't squirm at all anymore and is requiring less taps on his nose to hold securely. I'll probably introduce pressure sometime around Friday.

So just to update you guys on my progress with this, I had my FF schedule postponed a few days... so I started my first actual session applying pressure via ear pinch today.

So when I started today I wasn't pinching hard enough and didn't have my finger far enough back to the meaty part of his ear at first to get him to yelp and open his mouth... yea I'm a softy when it comes to my dog. I stopped for a second, went back and and reread the advice you guys provided here. Went back to the table and got set up again. This time I pinched the meaty part, said fetch, and really pinched. He yelped, opened his mouth a little and the dowel slid right in. I immediately released the pinch and commanded hold while tapping on his nose. The second time he did better, then third time he did awesome. Fourth time I barely got my hand in his ear and he actually leaned forward slightly and bit the dowel when I said fetch. So he understands what we are trying to accomplish. He is also really starting to hold the dowel with force, I've tried wiggling it out and he won't let it go and will actually tighten his grip when I mess with the dowel until I command "give it."

I know its only the first actual session with ear pressure and I've got a lot of work to do but I'm pretty proud of how he reacted. I'm about to go work another session in before it gets dark.

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

Great news. It sounds like this may go fairly quickly. Shoot me a PM if you need any help on this. We can connect on the phone.

Good info, I think I may have to FF my 1 yr old vizsla. She retrieves good at home and playing in the field but in real hunts she's 50/50 on bringing it back. She's eager to break off and starting to find more birds. I guess it's not the worst problem with a pointing dog but I want her to finish the process before getting on another bird.

Awesome!!!!! Don't correct when he gets sticky right now though. He is showing you that he understands.

Wow that's pretty cool. Keep up the good work.

The toughest part about the whole process for me epp838 is not being able to throw him fun bumpers after training or let him retrieve anything at all, which I've done since he was about 8-9 weeks old after training sessions every day. You could tell he expected them expected them when we first started the FF process, so I did some obedience as Jay suggested above to kind of break up the monotony of force fetch. His obedience training has now become a type of reward for him. Just to let you know though, he was 100% on his obedience before we started... but it never hurts to practice it and he likes doing it. I'll do stuff like set him at place and stay and try to tempt him to break... or blow a sit whistle while he doesn't expect it. Just things like that to keep him on his toes.

This afternoon's session I've started moving the dowel down away from him and he's reaching for it and snapping it up. His hold wasn't as good today as it's been the last few days though, he was doing a lazy hold with his mouth relaxed a little more than I liked... so I let him drop it on his own and I immediately picked it up and really tagged on his ear and said fetch and he picked it up again and made him clamp down while commanding hold again. But he's probably reaching anywhere from 8-10 inches down to reach the dowel now when commanded to fetch, and fairly quickly at that. I may try a few times with the dowel on the table to see if he will pick it up this evening. If he'll pick it up off the table tonight, I'll work on that tomorrow for a few sessions then try moving to the ground and maybe doing a walk up Saturday evening... maybe.

Anyway, to anyone trying to FF their pup, there is some great advice on this thread that really works. As a VERY amateur self-trainer though, I can see why people don't like doing this with their own dogs. It is a long and boring type of training (for me at least). Not near as glamorous as running land or water marks or handling... those sorts of things. I've been pretty fortunate that Buck took to it as well as he has so far. I know that means I'm going to have MAJOR problems with something else later down the road :-)





And a bonus mallard picture from this morning... (The chico is not mine, my other lab Zipper is not pictured, she retrieved for us the previous day on a fairly arduous public hunt)

Mine is definitely not ready.

A few more from this evening getting him to pick up dowel off the table...

Starting off this evening


Dowel on table for the first time... FETCH!!!


Going for it. Had to drop the iPhone for a minute to attend to dog once he starting going for it


HOLD!!! I'm trying to pull it out of his mouth and he actually slid forward on the table a bit... Success!!!

Why the blue tape?

One thing...to help set expectations....and it makes absolutely no sense to me but when I went from the table to the ground it was like starting over for my dog. Now the learning curve wasn't as radical but it was a few days before she really got the hang of it.

Glad he's getting it...I hated doing it and probably won't do the next one.

Pvc pipe gets pretty slippery. Probably not needed.

Judd, everything I have researched says the same thing you did about transition from table to ground... makes me wonder why everyone says to start on an elevated platform.

Most people that have been doing it awhile don't. All the platform does is control the dog for you. It takes the out mechanisms of bolting, biting, or lying down out of the equation but does nothing else for the overall process.

Tony, that makes sense to me now... lol. I thought there was some kind of magic reason I didn't understand to start them elevated like that

I'm starting to go crazy with this to be honest... I think I've been working him on this about 2 weeks or so... now I've still got to move him to the ground... go through the entire process again until he picks it up off the actual ground... then start doing walk ups... then go back and start the whole thing over with collar and ear pressure. I've noticed I'm starting to rush things to get through it and I know that's never a good thing... but I'm going to slow down a bit and really focus on doing this right since it takes so much time.

Blah... FF is the most monotonous part of training a gun dog... no question. I hope it pays off in the end, cause this is a hell of a process, lol.

I used a paint roller I thought the PVC wrapped was a good idea. Don't rush or push him...two weeks sounds WAY fast to be going to the ground already. But it also sounds like you didn't collar conditioning first so you've just done ear pinch and no collar work. It appears and sounds like he's getting it.

Don't question if it will be worth it...it will pay off 10 fold and is the foundation (outside of obedience) for all the rest of your training. Especially if you intend to work hand signals into his abilities...no way of teaching him to drive to a pile without using the "fetch" command, it eventually gets replaced with "back" or "over" but it's the basis.

Good luck! I'm no pro and my dog isn't perfect so take all that for what you paid for it.

Do you guys think I should start using collar pressure on the table before I move him to the ground? I can work on ear pinch a few more days, then switch to ear pinch and collar pressure, then just collar pressure? He's picking up off the table clean now with just the ear pinch. Then I can move him to the ground and start working on walk ups with just collar pressure?

I would continue with whatever program you are following. You are going to have to revisit things any way you do it when you get to the ground. Dogs are very location and routine oriented. For this reason you could teach something in the driveway and move six feet over into the grass and the dog will look like a calf looking at a new gate. Don't think of it as reteaching think of it as conditioning the commands in a new location because that is what you are doing. Don't get into a rush. Training your dog is a process and they are all different. This is dog training. Believe it or not this is one of the easiest things you will teach your dog because it is a step by step process. If you think you're banging your head against the wall now wait until you get into transition.

Soo, I don't understand why you're not throwing marks or happy bumpers for the dog Afterwards?
This reasoning is really old school.

Robby

Tony,

Thanks for the advice. I'll make sure I take my time on it, and I don't mind it so much (I know I said above I was going crazy) It just hasn't been my favorite part of training so far. The dog is doing much better than I am with it. If I've got to do it several times on/off the table with several different pressures, then that's what I'll do. And I'll keep doing it until there's no doibt he has it. I could tell I was starting to try and move him a little too fast.

My question above was because I rewatched some videos and reread the FF method in Dokken's book (I try and do that for each step so I don't miss anything). One says to introduce collar pressure before you take the dog off the table and one says to wait until after you take him to the ground. Both trainers have had the same steps in the process up to this point.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to provide me with advice on this... I really enjoy training dogs, and especially like hunting them once they are trained. My end goal is not to produce and field trial dog, but I do want him to get all his hunt tests passed. In my limited experience with this, he seems like he's going to be a great dog and I feel like I owe it to him to do so. I couldn't do it without guys like you and Jay and others providing me advice.

Cracker always loved getting on the FF table.

In that case do electric fetch on the table before moving to the ground. And I agree with robby, I throw fun bumpers during FF. Just don't try to enforce a standard that isnt there yet. It's a reward not a mark.

How do you experienced FF people view the time line of the process. I had an old timer tell me to get in and get out it.

I was being too thorough with each step and he could see it in my dog. I am sure with experience you can make a better read on the dog and move along quicker. He said you can always backup a little if need be.

His basic statement was that inexperienced trainers apply pressure far too long not knowing exactly when to take the next step. He was big on fun bumpers in all training situations especially FF.

Can you get the job done in 10 days correctly or is it a 3 to 4 week process no matter how the dog is progressing?

That's a good question Leonardo.
I had my dog FF by a pro trainer, so I don't have the answer.
I do know some dogs take longer than others to get through the process. I would only be guessing, but if the dog is understanding the pressure, and is complying with whats asked, I think I would move on to the next step. Again, I didn't FF my dog. He doesn't handle pressure very well, and so I thought it best to let a pro handle it.

That's a hard question to answer because it depends on your interpretation of what force fetch entails and also what steps you have done previously in your program. For instance I believe that force fetch includes everything from the first day of hold through the end of collar force to the pile. Also, I collar condition during basic obedience. Some popular programs out there do this and some don't. If the one you use doesn't then you have to ear pinch to the ground, walking fetch, in some cases whip fetch (which some do and some don't. I don't) and then go back and collar condition and do it all again with the collar. Some add three handed casting in there and don't do FTP until all that is complete. So, you can see what the confusion would be as far as timeline.

I do agree with the principal of getting out of pressure as soon as possible. I believe that this makes things black and white for the dog. By getting out of pressure I mean you no longer have to use pressure every command but still use it for enforcement or lack of effort, not totally abandon it. The principal that needs to be understood about pressure is that the dog needs to understand why he is getting pressure and what to do to turn it off. The thing that a lot of people don't understand is that the dog also needs to learn that they can avoid it completely and also that they have to WANT to turn it off. That is where dogs of different temperaments and the ability to read them come into play. I believe that by getting out of pressure sooner the dog learns these principals quicker.

So, in saying all that, people that have a lot of experience doing this learn to read the dog and also understand what needs to be solid now and what can be cleaned up later. This is bad advice to give to a first time trainer though because they are not experienced in reading dogs, therefore most programs will recommend that you have one thing solid before moving on to the next.

As far as my timeline, I cc during obedience, don't use a table, throw fun bumpers during FF. I do it off the ground with ear pinch and then collar pressure, first low level continuous and then nicks. I transition from hand to ground to walking fetch then FTP. When the dog is locking into the pile, going and returning with style, coming to heel properly and delivering to hand without blinking or no goes and can be forced enroute without any adverse reaction I consider FF complete other than possibly going back with birds if there are any issues. I have found the average dog takes four weeks but routinely have some that go 8. I have had some that will fly through OB and FF but they are usually the ones with over the top desire.

So......we're back to it depends on the dog!!!!

Force fetch goes from hold through the double t. It can't be done thoroughly in 2 weeks. You're forcing the dog past the over piles to the back pile. I personally don't use the collar on fetch. Only obedience and then force to pile. I continue to throw marks for the dogs, just don't put pressure on delivery to hand, or dropping on the retrieve until I am sure they know fetch and delivery.
This is all considered to be "yard work", not necessarily FF.


Robby

Tony i appreciate the time for your answer. It reinforced most of what i have been told and learned thus far. I recently forced my first two dogs from start to finish and the difference between the two were night and day.

I don't understand how you guys can go on and on with dogs that were bred to retrieve. I even put little Muffin through the process. She caught right on. I used a ribbon on her toe.



She was holding in no time.




She. Had no trouble switching to wild quail.

That's awesome Bill

How is Muffin with casting off a point at 150 yards with a 20mph cross wind?

That's the difference

Or getting into the water at 300 yds.

Robby

You can force any fur bag to pick up whatever..BUT you can't turn any dog into a "working" retriever if it does not like to actually retrieve or have the drive to move forward through the training it will fail sooner or later it will give up!!! Notice I said working retriever...Not all retrievers will be able to or will want to do the work (Like birds)...Force Fetch has most people thinking a dog will retrieve a bird even if it has zero interest in birds..Why does a overworked dog bump a bird it's dieing to pick up even though it's Forced...It has to pick up the object and want to pick up that object for the FF to come into play..You can not say fetch to a dog at 200 yds and have it magically pick up a bird it has no interest in picking up..it will just avoid both you the object and the command..You can force most any dog to the back pile BUT they best be crazy for bumpers and birds to achieve what you want or you may bury yourself fast..They may amble out but not care about picking up bumper or bird..FF makes the dog HOLD onto the object no matter what is going on around them NOT turn them into a bird crazy dog...Force to the back pile makes the dog run in a straight line after something it loves but has absolutely no clue where it is...It either winds it or is handled to it...BUT it does not make it pick it up if it does not want to pick it up!!! Many a over worked, over juiced, FF dog has clammed up from miss thinking on the trainers end

Okay, so the last few days I introduced collar pressure w/ ear pinch. Then solely collar pressure, continuous at first and now nicks. I always remove pressure as soon as he got the object in his mouth. If he dropped it, pressure was immediately applied w/ fetch command and hold reinforced w/ positive reinforcement. He will fetch now with no pressure applied on fetch command on the table and on the ground. He requires a nick about 30-50% of the time if I place the object away and do a walk up.

The day I switched him from the table to the ground he didn't miss a lick. He's picked up whatever object we are working with (chunk of wood, dowel, bumper, or PVC) anywhere I leave it for him. Bottom line, I can walk anywhere in the yard now, place an object on the ground and walk my dog up to it, command fetch, and he will pick it up (sometimes will require a nick with collar on longer walk ups) and not let object go until I tell him to. That's where I'm at. If I even reach for his ear, he immediately pushes his head forward and opens his mouth grabbing for the object.

I'm assuming I need to work walk-ups a few more days until he's 100% no pressure and he has that down and then move to FTP? Do you guys try walk ups on strings of multiple objects? Do I need to do this with a bird as an object as well?

Thanks again for the help.

PS... I got my chunk of wood picture too :-)

I like to do sort of a bridge from walking fetch to FTP. I do this by stopping on walking fetch and letting the dog lunge 6 or so feet forward to the bumper and then come back to heel and deliver. This gets the mechanics of moving away from the handler and then returning to heel and delivering down prior to going to pile work. You would be surprised the issues that you may run into when the dog is first trying to walk and chew gum at the same time but it does keep a lot of pressure and confusion out of pile work. I would recommend not starting this until the dog is 100% percent picking up on command without pressure with a few enroute nicks mixed in to make sure there is a stable reaction to pressure.

Thanks Tony. I'll continue to work on walk ups for a few days then until no pressure is needed. Will throw in a few reinforcement nicks here and there to keep him honest. I'll start brushing up and reread FTP again to see how I need to set that up when the time comes as well.

There's some light at the end of the FF tunnel :-)

Do y'all do stick fetch?

Robby

So I did my first force to pile this afternoon (I think, lol). I worked him on a few sessions of walk ups like Tony suggested yesterday and this morning and he was having really good sessions. You could tell he knew he had it figured out... his head was up, he was paying attention, and he was really focused.

He was 100% on walk ups for two sessions this morning, so this afternoon I set a straight line of 6 bumpers up starting at about 10 feet from place stretching out to about 35-40 feet. I sent him using the fetch command. He ran past the first two bumpers and grabbed the third one and brought it back to heel. Then he picked up the fourth, fifth, and sixth. Always skipping the first two bumpers. After he got 3,4,5, & 6 he picked up bumper #1 (with a nick) and then bumper #2 last.

I wasn't really sure what to do when he skipped the #1 and #2 bumpers on that first session (I think I should have nicked him right before he got to bumper #1 and commanded fetch again). I think I may have spaced them too closely as well (about 5 feet apart). I simplified and put 3 bumpers out the next go round and spread them out further apart (10 feet this time out to 30 feet) and he picked up bumper #2, then bumper #3, then bumper #1. I also sent him on "dead bird back" this time instead of "fetch" and he didn't have any trouble with the change in command terminology.

I did notice that he had a ton of drive today. He was absolutely blasting to the bumpers as soon as I said "dead bird back," and hauling butt back to heel. You could really tell he loved this drill.

Anyway, does anyone have suggestions for getting him to pick up bumpers in order or should I be concerned with that at this point and just keep working him on it and it will fix itself through repetition?

Thanks again for any advice!!!

I don't think it matters as long as he's not "shopping" (checking out multiple bumpers before picking one up)

All the force to pile drills I've seen actually just have a pile...not bumpers spaced out.

Are you sending him some from the front sit position?

I don't do stick fetch anymore. I think it is a good thing for distraction proofing a dog that needs it but because I CC during obedience I just follow through with the collar and don't really need the stick as a means of compulsion. I also don't recommend it to new trainers because I feel that timing is critical and is the one thing that first timers lack.

hunting_guy: your dog is giving you a read that he wants to stretch his legs a little bit. I don't get my panties in a wad over shopping. You do want to separate the bumpers but in more of a pile than a line. Shopping is really just a non compliance with the here command so if I have an issue I just correct with nick "here!". You should be blowing the come in whistle as soon as the dog is about to make it to the pile and is lunging for the bumper. This makes it clear to the dog that you are asking him to retrieve and come back immediately. Any failure to do so should result in a correction.

Put your bumpers in a pile with separation and he will stop over running some. Start backing up as he shows confidence and competence. And don't forget to mix in nicks to get the enroute force down and make sure there are no adverse reactions. One out of every three or four should have some pressure with another "back" command to solidify that is what he should be doing. Initially the Nick should come when he's almost to the pile to alleviate confusion. Then you can start mixing up the distance. And remember, a good dog can count so mix it up.

Yes... I'm sending him from sit, heeled at my left side for right now from his place (a 2'X2' slightly elevated platform). On marks he goes on "Buck" and on "FTP" or I guess in my case "force to a line of bumpers, lol" he's going on "dead bird back."

I'll just try putting them in a pile and do a few sessions like that, backing up a few yards each time he goes so the pile is further and further away.

I'd researched that placing the bumpers in a line progression helps them run straighter blinds, but he doesn't really seem to have trouble with running straight lines at this point. I ran him on a fresh duck I killed this morning in the yard (not on a hunt, but when I brought the bird back to the house to clean) at about 50 yards and he did great.

He's still a little bit rough with actual birds (he really chomps down when he fetches)... but much less than before and he is delivering to hand fairly well. He's had a steel trap for a jaw since he was a pup (his dad was the same way), he doesn't necessarily chew on them, but you can tell he still doesn't just want to give them up that easily either. But I'm not going to complain about that, I'd rather him hold the bird firmly than drop it.

I'm REALLY contemplating on taking him on a dove hunt one afternoon this week... but I'm not sure if that will help or hurt his training.

Thanks again guys... I'll try and post some more pictures of his progress on FTP this afternoon.

From a training for FT or HT perspective I can understand the thought process of not hunting a dog until a certain point in training. However I got my pup to hunt. Training and working is fun and rewarding on it's own but in the end you only get so many seasons with your hunting partner.

Just to clarify training is training and the standard is the standard. Ask anyone who trains dogs if they do basics any different for a gundog, hunt test dog, or FT dog, and they will tell you it is all the same.

As for hunting the dog early, nothing good can come of throwing anything, puppy or human, into a situation where they have not been prepared ahead of time.

As for doves: retrieving doves is the quickest way to erode what you have just done. Feathers come out and even dogs with great mouth habits will juggle, chomp, or spit dove occasionally. I'm not saying never dove hunt your dog just do it when he's conditioned enough for it not to cause problems.

Dove and quail are bad with that for sure. Honestly, dove are only a quick diversion for a weekend before early teal and bow season. If your dog has the instinct and drive for real birds then it can be a great way to focus that drive. Or make them where they like bumpers less . . .

Sounds good. I won't take him then

By what I have read on this thread, it sounds like your FF training has moved quickly - great job. FF training must include birds and it sounds like you have started this. It is always best to do this with the table and in a controlled situation if possible. But it is hard for most everyone to have doves and other types of birds at your disposal. You may have to do some of this in the field.

If you go dove hunting, go with training in mind. As long as your focus is training your dog and not gunning birds, all should go well. Shoot one bird, put down your gun and then work your dog through the process to fetch, hold and deliver to hand. Once you work through the first delivery, toss the bird out and have your dog pickup and deliver again. Repeat.

I have found with dove(especially those first few) that after I say "give", I help swipe out some of the feathers still lingering in my dog's mouth. That first dove will loose a lot of feathers if your dog rolls it around, so if you can, shoot another and repeat the process. Your training with dove may be more on hold than fetch.

I am confident all will go well. However, if things go south, just pack it in but be sure to take a dove or two with you. Freeze them, and repeat the FF dove process with frozen birds.

Use this same approach with other birds new to your dog.

I worked doves with my pup in September. Even at four months she was willing and able to retrieve them. I worked her with help, them tossing dead birds from cover and me firing then sending her. She even retrieved several birds from the tanks. However I wasn't FF training and when she delivered the birds I immediately took them so there would be no dropping or chewing issues. Personally I only shot half a dozen birds and she did well for her age but my expectations were low and it was more about having her there than hunting her.

So when I actually created a pile (and not a line of bumpers) over the weekend, the dog did much better. He still ran a straight line to the pile, as soon as he'd get there I'd nick him and he would pick up a bumper. As soon as he went for a bumper I blew the whistle command for come, and he'd spin around and come back to heel.

Each time I'd send him, I'd back up about 10 paces while he was running to the pile and rinse and repeat (my pile contains 6 bumpers). I'm running out of room in my yard and we're probably up to 100 yards now on our pile (I'm getting to the max distance I can run him in my yard).

I've also incorporated another drill to mix things up with FTP. I'll walk the dog at heel and drop a few bumpers behind me to where he does not see them. I'll walk anywhere between 30-80 yards, then turn around and send him to retrieve those bumpers. Up to this point, he'd always seen me put all the bumpers in the pile while he waited at place, so he knew they were there. During this drill, he had no idea the bumpers where there. I spun him around and to heel and commanded "dead bird back," he kind of looked up at me like "what are you talking about... there's no bumpers out there" but he ran back anyway because of the FTP drills we'd been doing. He ran right into the bumper, I nicked him for fetch, and he picked it up and ran back to me. He had this look on his face like... hey! look what I found out there. It was pretty funny.

He's got fetch and hold down with bumpers now. I just need to do a little more work with actual birds and I think we will be finished with FF.

Congratulations!! Wasn't so hard after all. Sounds like you have a very compliant dog that wants to work and please. One word of caution, be careful not to test your dog too early and too often. There is a difference between training and testing. If you're not sure which you are doing then think of your initial thought to yourself when you set up training that day. If your thought was "Im going to work on this concept. I anticipate the dog will do this and this is how I'm going to correct it" you're training. If your thought was "lets see what he does" you're testing. Make sure training always outweighs testing or you will see that attitude diminish.

Good luck

I got real lucky I got a good dog. I mean I work hard at training him. We have worked almost every day at least twice a day since I picked him up when he was 7 weeks in July, except when he had that issue with his shoulder. I am by no means a good trainer but this dog catches on quick which makes things really easy.

It does make it tricky though because sometimes I wonder how in the world a dog can pick up and retain something so fast or I worry all the time that we are moving too fast through training. The only way I can test that is by always starting out where we left off the day before and using that as a benchmark for how well he retained it. I will also go back to previous drills from weeks back or throw in obedience stuff.

I'm excited, I think Jay has a hunt test scheduled in March and we are looking forward to going that and seeing what he can do. I can't wait for early teal season next year either... ready to see this guy pick up some ducks!!!

So are you having to nick him to pick up the bumper? Or is this just to fix "shopping? " Are you nicking on the initial send and in route?

Jay I don't understand the reason to force a dog on birds at this stage, could you explain this reasoning?

Robby

I nick him on the in route, but less and less frequently now. He no longer requires any nicks at all, but I was told by several trainers that this is good practice early on in the FTP process.

I think Jay was talking in a sense of if I wanted to take my pup
Dove hunting this year... but from everyone's advice, I decided against that.

You should also force from your side. Back, nick, back. This gives you a tool to fix no-goes. I would also be careful bumping the dog before it picks up the bumper it could cause other issues.

Robby

Robby,

The end game is delivering a bird to hand, so once I am past dowels, bumpers and other objects, I want to bring in a bird. Some dogs nail this after the previous is done but some have issues. Every dog is different. Do this on the training table and yard if you can, but if not, be prepared to do it in the field.

As soon as we start talking about forcing to pile or running ladder lines, we are discussing what most pointing dog owners will never need and some may not understand. A majority of retriever owners will never care to go there either. I expect we have a wide variety of gun dog owners following this thread. BradyBuck made great progress (as expected) with his dog, so for me, if he wanted to go dove hunting it was fine assuming the key focus was to reinforce his FF training with dove. He can do this now or next September.

I hope this clarifies my comments.