training a lab

What is the best book to use when training a lab? I'm getting my son a lab puppy Friday, and we are going to train it to retrieve ducks for us while hunting, any info would help, thanks

There are 2 programs that are popular and good. Total Retriever Training by Mike Lardy and Smartworks by Evan Graham. Go to their web-sites and look them over. See which one would work for you.

Good Luck!

Angie

Have you ever heard of water dog, and is it any good? Thanks

Water Dog is very out dated. The material I suggested is much more relevant.

Angie

Listen to Angie, she know of what she speaks

I used Water Dog and Ten Minute Retriever. My dog was on hand signals at 6 months. If you can dedicate 10 minutes a day for 90% of 6 months (164 days), you can have a well trained dog. There is a bond between a dog and its trainer that can't be duplicated.

Water Dog doesn't address the E collar. That's important!!

Angie

Can't trainem with treats

just my opinion

I am pretty sure that the new Water Dog DVD addresses the use of an E-Collar. If not, Ten Minute Retriever book did. The OP asked a question and I gave my opinion based on my experience that worked pretty good. I don't need an E-collar to get my dog to retrieve a duck. And, I don't need it to send her after the decoys after the hunt is over. And, I didn't need an E-collar to send my dog after the neighbors plastic toy that fell into the HOA canal. My dog will fetch almost anything I ask her to pick up (never not did it yet). She doesn't do this because I will shock her if she doesn't...She does it because 1) she loves to fetch 2)she knows it makes me happy 3)she is truly a part of our family. My dog sleeps with my daughter. She rides in the cab of the truck. She gets played with everyday. She has never been on a chain (check cord to train and leash for walks where required).

I did use an E-collar when it came time to learn hand signals, but only used the vibrate function to get my dogs attention. I don't think I needed to use it, but I believe it sped up the process of it learning my hand signals. Most people that train their own dog don't go for a "finished" dog (dog that works on hand signals).

I think it is a good idea to read more than one book(DVD) to get more than one point of view.

I am not trying to knock someone else's view or opinion here, just clarifying mine.

Bill Hillmann's approach is another great program. Just by following the "training a retriever puppy" video will produce better duck dogs than 85% of what's out there.

Check out some of his YouTube videos. His approach is different than traditional approaches and is proving effective with more and more dogs.

Key is balance of obedience and retrieving when training. I'm realizing that more and more.

http://www.billhillmann.net

You just unknowingly proved a point. You did find the use of an e collar a safe and effective means of providing instant feedback to your dog in order to better put a certain skill into your dog. Without even realizing it you were using the e collar (even in vibrate) to bring the principals of positive reinforcement, positive punishment, negative reinforcement, and negative punishment to the table for your dog which in turn helped him to learn the lesson both quicker and better than most other methods. Whether you used nick, continuous, or vibrate didn't matter. Of course none of this is explained in Wolters book but is explained in great depth in the other two programs that Angie recommended. How much more effective might you have been if you understood those principals prior to using the e collar to train your dog?

Well said and true. There is way more to using a E-collar which most do not understand.

If said dog is running a 200yd blind, a clicker, two tweets and a piece of hamburger won't get it done.

I'm sure there is a "super dog" somewhere that can do a back flip off a backyard swimming pool diving board and swim to the bottom and pick up a rock, without ecollar

If you are needing a dog to do a 200 yard blind retrieve, training is not your problem. I suggest learning how to shoot. Just saying.......

I don't understand why people have to bash other peoples proven methods. I didn't bash anyone's book or method. I gave my experience on two books I read to train my dog. My dog turned out great, just like anyone else that uses the same books/puts in the time.

If your methods worked out, that is great. Post how well it worked and how well your dog works.

This is funny !!! And you are right about the bashing, sorry, right about the shooting too

Sorry guys, a small mental lapse of judgment.....wasn't trying to poke fun at any certain person. I just don't get training a dog to do a 200 yard blind retrieve. If a bird sails that far, my dog is with me and will see it better than me (that is what she is trained and bred into her to do). If on the rare occasion I shoot a bird after putting her up, I am going to get her out and get within 50 yards to send her for it.

I just don't hunt areas that are dangerous to my dog, so the 200 yard blind just doesn't come into play for me. I will never say never, but it just hasn't happened yet. And, I don't prepare for nuclear war either, so let's not go there.

I don't think it has anything to do with hunting dangerous areas or being a bad shot. Not every shot results in a mark for the dog,and there will be times you have cripples that may sail on you field hunting, sitting on a pond, or in the marsh/lake. You owe it to the game to attempt to recover. Why not have a dog that is capable of running that blind in lieu of you taking it to within 50 yards? My dog can cover that ground much quicker and more efficiently than with me walking it to the area. She's trained to go much further than 200 yards and has on occasion.

Bottom line is, train your dog to the point that you're happy and they are safe to hunt with. Whether that's chunking rocks to get them to go hunt up a bird or having them run a 400yd blind on a crippled goose running through the field. Any program, book, or DVD will get you at least somewhere between those scenarios if you put in the effort.

This!^ (6 months may be a little quick but definitely on the right track)

I'd also add to look in to retriever clubs in your area regardless if you want to get in to hunt tests. Lots of knowledgeable folks that will offer help.

I used wolters Water Dog. It is outdated, but I found that it was really easy to read, and it worked great. Later in my training, I came across Chris Akin, and found that I liked the way he demonstrates his training(dvd). One of the biggest challenges you might face, is training the family to train the dog. This was extremely important to set the Ground rules for training. I Think the biggest thing is consistency. I didn't/don't use shock collar. Would it have been better/quicker? I think so, but nonetheless, I came out with a great dog. She's not a trial dog, but she is a duck fetcher. I hunt mostly marsh and Bay, and she works great. I strongly urge to at least read something or watch/study a dvd BEFORE trying to start training. And long story short, I would recommend water dog.

Nice post Terry!!

Angie

Sure lots of opinions and good info here. Seems like everyone has their opinion of what works best for them. I guess that is why we are all individuals and not clones. Dogs are the same way too.

This is going to be my last post on this thread. It is kind of getting off topic and people are posting stuff where they don't even know the definition of the words they are using (vibrating my dog is a negative reinforcement???).

I will go back to the 200 yard blind. In over 90% of the hunting situations/places I am at, there is no way my dog can see me at 200 yards to even start to handle (give hand signals) her. That is why I taught her to do shorter blinds. I use the vibration on the E Collar just as I use the whistle to stop her. I use the same concept that Wolters discussed in Water Dog. First teach a dog to sit and after they have it mastered, blow the whistle once after they sit. You do this until you can blow the whistle once and they sit without you telling them to. Well, I took this concept a bit further and used the vibrate on the E-Collar to command my dog to sit. I graduated from that to hitting vibrate when I whistled for her to sit and look at me on a blind retrieve. This has a lot of benefits and one is to kind of be able to handle your dog when you can't see her. I do want to emphasize "kind of". To handle your dog in my opinion, you have to see her.

Lots of books out there on training a dog. I only have experience with 2, so that is what I can recommend. In any case, it is the time you put in and the consistency of your training that will get your dog where you want it to be.

Yes using the vibrate mode on your e collar can be negative reinforcement.

In dog training there are some basic principals that one must understand prior to using aversives. The e collar is an aversive stimulus to the dog and it doesn't matter if you are using vibrate, momentary, or continuous. Aversive stimulus is anything that will cause discomfort in the dog and compel them to make the correct decision once trained to do so.

Negative- to take away something
Positive- to add something to
Enforcement/Punishment- when the dog is not responding correctly and aversive stimulus is used to compel the dog
Reinforcement- when the dog is already doing the correct response and you are reinforcing the behavior with aversive stimulus.

So, in the example that you cited where the e collar was used to produce better sits if the dog was already sitting and looking at you and you vibrated the dog then that would be positive reinforcement. Not positive because you used vibrate instead of e stim but because you were adding to what the dog was doing and reinforcement because the dog was already performing the response. On the other hand you mention that you used the collar to get your dog to look at you. If the dog was not looking at you on sit then the dog was bugging. In that case by using the collar to get the dog to look at you it would have been negative enforcement/punishment. Again it was not negative because you chose vibrate vs e stim or vice versa but negative because you were taking something away (bugging) and enforcement because you were compelling the dog to do something that he was not already doing with aversive stimulus.

These examples could go on and on and could also include discussion on direct vs indirect pressure. The point is that a dogs attitude can be negatively impacted by improper use of aversives no matter what they are. This could include heeling stick or even pinch collar or chain. No one has knocked any training method in this thread however, given the fact that most people in this day and age choose to use some sort of aversives to train their dogs it makes a whole lot more sense to recommend a training method that includes some sort of formal information on those methods. Graham, Lardy, and Hillman programs that have been recommended all do. Waterdog does not.

Full disclosure- I'm sure that many have used Waterdog to train their first dog, including me, however, there are more inclusive and detailed methods out there.

My $0.02...I trained my first dog on Water Dog, Training Retrievers to Handle by D L and Ann Walters, and Bill Tarrant's Training the Hunting Retriever (to a lesser degree). I don't think anything in these books is "no longer valid", but agree with others that they do not take into account training methods that have been developed since these books were published. With that being said, I love the Wolters books and of them I actually prefer Game Dog. It has alot of the same information as Water Dog, but goes into a few other areas that are applicable to labs as well as other breeds.

With my latest dog, I drew a little from Hillman's training a retriever puppy, but mostly I've followed the Smart Works program and have been happy. Others have already said it, but the bottom line to me is to pick something, stick with it, be consistent, and tailor it to your dog. They all have different personalities and you'll soon learn yours.

For me, having use Water Dog previously, it is a known comfort zone place to start. Looking at the Smartworks website and some of the youtube video excerpts he has I think it is probably a good system as well. However it looks like a very complicated system and if one isn't looking to trial or test their dog, just hunt, then knowing what parts to get and use is a little intimidating to me. If I get a pup soon I don't need a $350 complete training kit to add on top of the dog cost, first vet costs, chipping costs, etc. I have enough expenses to deal with without dropping that kind of cash and then figuring out what parts I will use and not use as I go. So if some of these other popular systems were a little clearer on what to start off with and when more would be needed and stuff it would be easier. With Wolter's program I just stayed with the time line (roughly) and had capable hunting dogs. But the reality is, if the dog does seem to be doing well, I have the time now to do hunt tests and did decide to do that, at that point a more in depth training method would be attractive to refine the dog with.

There is no difference in training a hunting dog, a hunt test dog, or a field trial dog. Solid basics through transition are necessary no matter what you choose. Wolters book doesn't even show you how to transition to cold blinds, a skill most definitely valuable to the hunter.

You wouldn't buy a new truck just to use the heater and the radio so why would you buy a hunting dog and not want to get the fullest potential out of it too? Campaigning should not be the only reason to have a well trained dog.

Also in the grand scheme of things the money that you will spend on a program is a drop in the bucket. Buy one used if cost is a factor.

That doesn't give a working answer. If one were unwilling to buy the whole system and just want to get the parts needed to start the dog what would be a good starting point and say up to about six months?

Six months of training (with a knowledgeable person) will only get you through basics (what is in Wolters book). Your dog will be through TT but will not be able to run a cold blind. You will think he will because he will be taking casts in the yard, but he won't. That dog will be a started dog that can pick up a single. Most serious hunters want more than that.

So the answer is that you don't pick and choose. You have to do all of it if you want an accomplished gundog that is going to pick up all your birds in any circumstance.

If your unwilling to spend the $ on a quality program then you will end up with an inferior end result, simple as that.

Look at Freddie Kings videos on YouTube. It's a modern program step by step just like the two you don't want to pay for but....it's free. 24 videos step by step.

I don't mind spending money on what I need to make a dog work out. I just don't see any intent at this time to have a dog that will do 200 yard blind retrieves or some of the stuff you see at the hunt trials. I guess I have time to buy the system, study and learn it, then get the dog at a later date. Which would probably help me be more confident using it anyway.
BTW, with Wolter's system both of my dogs were capable of blinds, multiple marks and whistle and hand control. But watching some of the stuff on those videos showed me that there is a lot more you can do to refine the dog, teach them a more solid trust in your commands and be more successful at it as an individual and that intrigued me.

Exactly...it's all about expectations. The programs Angie mentioned will produce a much more refined end result.

There's a guy that lives close to you that you might be able to hook up with. His name is Wayne Nutt. At least that's his handle on the retriever forum. He also has a lot of videos he's done using one of the systems Angie mentioned. It looks as if he's getting an understanding of what it takes to make a finished dog. Maybe you can look him up.
Angie and Tony are pros-they start a lot of dogs, and they get a lot in that owners have started that they have to fix. They are recommending programs they know work.

Robby

A buddy of mine sent his pup to a "pro" in Caddo Mills. He had these plates on the wall of supposed accomplishments of his dogs. Six months of training costing him right at $4000. He "demonstrated" the dog could fetch a cast bumper at 50'. When I asked him some questions about marks and multiple casts he stated a 14 month old dog was too young to teach that. The dog came back looking sickly, had the runs and no more capable than I had my dogs at four months old. Actually not that good. First hunt, ducks came in, shotguns went off, and the dog was sent after a downed bird. Upon reaching the bird the dog sniffed it and stood there. Then, other birds came in. I shot at them, the dog took off and we never saw it again. Alive that is. Unfortunately not all "pro" trainers are. And for me it has further soured me on buying a pup from a breeder, even one that is a professional so to speak, so please try to understand that my questions come from a working mans point of view. I need to get the right pup and then do the right/best things with the training as best as I am capable. The pup I was looking at sold before I made a decision so I have time to buy and learn the system before I get a pup and start.

I would say your buddy probably didn't do his research in finding a quality trainer that is well known with many references. Same with the breeder. There are good and bad with everything in life. It's your job as the consumer to do your due diligence and make sure you are getting what you paid for.

Breeder/trainer. Same guy. And I agree.