Water Dog vs Gun Dog

Not to spark the age old debate of what breed dog for what purpose, but I am picking up my GSP pup in the next few weeks. He will mainly be used for retrieving, but I want a GSP and they are such versatile dogs that its just going to fit the bill. My question for those who have read the books, which is better, or should I just pick both of them up? I will be doing my own training, I enjoyed the heck outta of with my lab before she passed and cant afford to send the pup off. Thanks in advance

I guess I didn't follow.

"My question for those who have read the books, which is better, or should I just pick both of them up?"

Should you pick up both what?

If you are referencing the Wolters books you should probably skip both of them.
They are pretty much considered worthless.
If you want to start pup off right, work on obedience training, it is the best base for all training to follow.
I'm not a pointing guy so I'm not really sure of where to send you for specific advice.
What I would do is find a local pointing dog club and seek out advice from experienced members.
I have read the Bill Tarrant / Delmar Smith .. I think the title is something like "Best Way to Train your Gun Dog"?
I will say Delmar Smith knows dogs and his methods work.

Get both Perfect Start/Perfect Finish and Delmar Smith's book. Like Blanco said obedience/yard work is the foundation to build on. Good luck with your new pup! What breeder are you getting him from?

I also liked the ideas in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eBekc1S4w

Sorry for the confusion, but yes I was asking about boos and DVDs. Thanks for the info steering me away from wolters. My lab was a started dog so I skipped the puppy stage and basic obedience work. What would be the best material for things such as basic commands/yard work? I looked at the smartworks puppy program but the samples I saw I did not like

I have both books, and have found them extremely useful. I used Gun Dog to train a GSP; the results amazed me. That dog could do ANYTHING! He was retrieving birds for me at 8 weeks. THe birds were bigger than he was.

First thing is your gsp is not a lab and shouldn't be trained as such. There seems to be already a focus on obedience and as such your really be detrimental to your puppy and his relationship with you.

Some one mentioned joining a club and I agree with that advice.

There is Joan Bailey how to help a gunfight train itself or something to that effect which I like

I don't understand the question.

The question is: Which book is better Water Dog or Gun Dog?

Water dog is probably the most read book on dog training ever. I used it and 5 minute retriever to train my dog. In over 5k birds dropped in front or behind her, she has yet to not recover one. I am not into the trial thing....I am into the having a good hunt and having a bird dog that will retrieve the birds. My dog was on hand signals at 6 months and I used the training on Water Dog to a "T" on this. My dog even picks up the decoys or anything else I tell her to do. She even picked up a kids plastic scooter from our HOA pond once. Should have seen the eyes on that mom when I sent my dog and she brought it back....made that little boys day too. Sorry to go off on a tangent......If Water Dog and Gun Dog techniques can't train your dog......get another dog.

To answer the OP's question. I would start with Water Dog (since you will be using it for that) and then do Gun Dog. You will have a connection with your dog that no owner that sent their dog to a trainer will ever have. It is priceless and 99% will never send another dog off once they have done it themselves.

I think the first thing you should do is seriously consider what you expect of your dog.
If the dog is just going to be a hunting buddy you can do that training yourself pretty easy.
If you will be hunting with other people or think you might like to attend some dog events you will likely be well served searching out a club and seeing what lil Blockhead is capable of. The folks in most clubs are pretty friendly and will help all that they can. They will help you avoid all the dumb beginner mistakes.

I don't get all these people getting pointing breeds to do retriever work. Can a pointer retrieve...yes. Can it do it to a high level like a retriever...not a chance.

I agree with what a previous poster said about not trainning the dog like a retriever. Train it like a pointer but put a little more time and emphasis on the retrieving than most pointed owners would. As far as those books/DVDs go...there both outdated and there are much better materials out there.

I guess you guys haven't been exposed to pointing labs

Same thing...a pointing Lab is not going to be a better pointer than a pointing breed.

Some of us buy the versatile breeds because we want more than just a retriever.

What's high level? There are plenty of versatile breeds that are titled in HRC. High level in retriever hunt test no.

Amongst everybody's' opinions, dogs really haven't changed much. Yes, there is much more updated and structured programs to advancing your dog. That said, there is also something to be said for a bit of common sense. Wolters' gives you a different perspective. Nothing more, nothing less. There is NOT only one way to train a dog...no matter what you want for an end product or hunting buddy!

Just a little food for thought.... In my opinion it does matter what you will primarily be doing with the dog. As an example with retrieving we place primary importance on being by our side. We convey that heel is a safe zone and the pup won't want to venture far. A flushing dog we want to teach medium range, about what you feel comfortable shooting. A pointer may be taught longer range. Go out, find game, and slam on point. Keep this in mind when determining what method you start with because it very well may effect the outcome.

Says the man who owns a Versatile Spaniel that holds one of that breed's first AKC retriever titles.

I think we have drifted off subject a bit...
Baylor Bears is getting a GSP and wants to train pup himself.
Here is my best advice, When you are training your pup, make the lesson like a game. Don't let young block head know he is being molded into hunting machine. Stimulate his prey drive when you can, and most important of all don't overdo the training in one session. Make the youngster relish the time he spends with you and use that time to advance his training.
Most important, limit the time you spend on any one lesson. You didn't go from Kindergarten to University in one year. Training takes time and patience.
There is plenty of good training material out there, and it sound like you want a versatile dog?
Seek out a versatile club, show up and train with them and ask a billion questions.
You can do it on your own but you must learn patience and persistence.

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. Thanks to you yall, Blanco is pretty much right. I love the versatility of the GSP and that's why I picked the breed after countless hours of research. Im not going to do trials or anything like that, I just want to have a well mannered dog that can pick up birds, and hunt like he is bred to do. From what Ive gathered the books Ive mentioned are not highly regarded, which Im very glad to know. Guess its back to the interweb for some good material on puppy programs and basic obedience training for when the pup is ready

Look at the OP. He said he is looking for a retriever. As far as "versatile breeds" that's just marketing to me. Any good hunting dog is versatile if trained to be. Retrievers can be good upland flushers as well as search and rescue or trailing dogs. All breeds are versatile...a good dog is a good dog.

From his post.
He will mainly be used for retrieving.

While some people like flusher, others want a dog that points upland game.
Then use the same dog for waterfowl, and dove.
I don't see why his choice of dogs would matter to other people.

Not to mention he started with "Not to spark the age old debate of what breed...". He has owned a lab before too, so not his first rodeo.

The basics from Delmar Smith, Evan Graham type stuff are going to do you better than water dog for sure. For texas weather your gsp should be fine for your retieving needs. The Lone Star HRC club is very receptive to the versatile breeds and would be a good resource for you. Looking forward to more posts about the pup.

I call BS. One of the best duck retrievers I ever saw was a GSP. GSP's and GWP's are "Versatile Breeds" IE: Hunt, Point, Retrieve.
Now if you're talking retrieving a sea duck off the coast of Nova Scotia I might agree with you, but fetching a duck in a warm water state like Texas not so much.

And you sell shorthairs right?

Robby

Nope. But our family has always had labs while I was kid. My first dog as an adult was also a lab. I do have a 14.5 year old GSP and she has been the best dog in my lifetime. The retrieving GSP I referred to made me switch ... after seeing that dog fetch Ducks in Central California. I had to give a GSP a try... I'll stick with the GSP from now on. Labs are overrated in my opinion and way overbred. Being the most popular breed in the US has been a detriment unfortunately.

Only if you go buy a newspaper lab.

I own a versatile dog as well and he is pretty good at everything at 2 years old. But I have a 5 month old lab that I can already tell will be a retrieving machine.
As a whole a versatile dog won't be an expert in any one area like a dog specifically bred for that area imo (outliers not included).

My thoughts are that people should get whatever dog they like, I know I did. But I do agree with huck that it's almost a disservice to get a versatile dog JUST to be a retriever.

thanks for the recommendation, I've been following this thread for my vizsla pup ill be getting in two months. I've had many of the same questions.