Looking for a Duck Dog!

I have raised and trained three "backyard" labs that were great companions but not very solid hunting dogs. im ready to spend the extra money to get a good pup and perhaps get it professionally trained. But i am also contemplating training it myself. i duck hunt every chance I get but average 4 days a week so i need a pup with tons of energy. Do any of you guys know of a good breeder around college station who is known for hunting labs and perhaps not the field trial breed. My dad just bought a lab with a narley field trial pedigree and it was the most uncontrollable wild dog weve ever had. Any advice is appreciated.

I was going to say get field trial blood for the energy you say you want until I read your last line. Lol

I really don't think it being uncontrollable had anything to do with that though but could be wrong.

wild wasnt perhaps the right word, I just need to learn how to make them have a more calm temperament, my dad worked that dog everyday and he still would be real whiny and fidgety in the blind and would try to take off. im not truly opposed to a field trial dog, their energy level is perfect for what I want. I just didnt know if someone knew of a good specific hunting kennel.

Tiogas retrievers is my recommendation but not sure if they have pups coming soon.

Sounds more like bad temperament than energy.

Where is your dad's out of?

I've got a couple of started dogs you can hunt this season if you'd like to go that route.

So you want a dog with tons of drive and style but with a calm temperament when you're not hunting? Should be super easy to find.

Kirk Whitman in Anderson should fit your bill, I don't remember the name of his kennel.

Robby

http://www.bestretrievers.com/home.html

http://www.redmarklabradors.com/ (they have two litters of pups on the ground now, not sure how many are still avail)

I believe he got his from a gentleman out of caldwell but i forget the name of the kennel. I think he would work well for me but hes just to much dog for my parents.

Kbobb i am looking more towards beginning of the year to get a pup, dropped money on a new truck and engagement ring so i need to save for a lil bit!


...Maximumintensity is that sarcasm or a serious response?

Its sarcasm with a hint of truth. I can't tell you how many times a day people call me looking for what you are looking for. That is the perfect dog and what everyone in the know is looking for. Unfortunately you may go through a lot of puppies looking for this perfect mix. For that reason I would suggest going with what kbobjr said and getting a started dog. That way you can look at conformation, temperament, and skill set.

On a side note I have had way more field trial pedigrees that fit the profile that you are looking for versus not. Save your money and do your research and you will find what you are looking for but don't be in a rush.

Good luck

Storemski,
Kbob and Tony have both given excellent advice. With a puppy, you know the breeding, but it's a bit of a crap shoot with what you'll end up with a few years down the road, which is why the "started dog" way is an excellent choice. And usually, the started dog is cheaper in the long run vs sending a puppy to a pro.
I truly believe that the way they're raised and the level of training you give them and the amount of accountability you hold a dog to, truly determines their behavior, both good and bad. They're just like people; if you permit things to happen, you promote things to happen. And that starts from the day you bring them home. Be constant with your standard and hold the dog accountable.
Yes, some dogs are more "driven" than others and have more energy. Yes, some are more calm. However, a well bred dog can be trained to perform and act anything that you would teach them. It simply takes time, patience, and any knowledge that you can gather from someone who has done it before.
I have a 6 month old puppy out of an NAFC/FC and FC/AFC breeding with a pretty "hot" pedigree...awesome dog, great in the house, great with kids, sleeps in the bed, on/off switch, trainable, smart, great desire...
I also have a 1.5 year old dog out of an FC/AFC and HRCH breeding...slightly less "hot" pedigree. Has the same attributes as the younger dog, but is exponentially more intense during training...

Best of luck to you and your journey. It's always a fun ride!

http://www.tiogaretrievers.com/?page_id=211

A dog that can do the job that wouldn't be high maintenance. Calm in the house and the duck blind. This wouldn't be a Field Trial champion by any stretch of the imagination. It would be a easy to train, easy to live with, good looking all arounder.

Take a look..

Angie

Make sure you go watch the sire and dam work if they got show titles in there pedigree not saying that those dogs arent very good i just havent seen to many that have alot of umph at hunt tests. Alot of people like to put a junior title on show labs to market them as hunters. Just go evaluate the dogs and be the judge. U can get a good idea from the sire and dam

Having gone through my first experiences with my Vizsla at both retriever tests and akc dog shows last couple years, I spent a lot of time watching the Labradors at both. The conformation Labs on average almost looked like a separate breed from the advanced hunt test/trial Labs. Both in looks and temperament.

$2,000 for a lab pup?? dang I've lost touch with reality. I need to some research on buying a lab puppy.

Most FT breedings start at 2500.00

Robby

I wouldn't consider that a FT breeding.

Hahahaha not even close to field trial breeding. Basically a non titled dog breed to a junior hunter with show labs in pedigree

She did say it was not a Field Trial champion by any stretch of the imagination

The thing about it is that the OP said that he wanted a dog that was calm but would also retrieve. He also stated that he did not want a high drive dog out of a field trial breeding because he had seen one and it was way too hot for him. Angie suggested a breeding that matches the description of what he asked for.

When looking for a pup the more you are willing to wait or spend increases the likelihood that you are going to get exactly what you are looking for. Yes these pups would be a field and show cross but that is exactly one of the things that Angie specializes in and has been doing it for a long time. Any pup is a gamble even an NFCxNFC. I would way rather buy a pup from someone that specializes in that type of thing and knows what they are going to get from a particular breeding. That experience costs money as does a good started dog which is the other viable option here. Either way your wallet is going to be a little lighter but you stand a better chance of being happy in the long run.

Well said Tony.
Sometimes we get sidetracked on the original question, and start posting what we like in a dog, and not what the OP would want.

Well, I came here to start my own thread because I was curious about the litter available at Tioga...and sure enough, I found someone already talking about it! I lost my beloved Yellow Lab and hunting companion in May. I'm not totally sure what my question would be, and I do realize that the pups are expensive and as noted above, they are probably worth it for the time, experience, etc.

Like the OP...I am looking for a dog that loves to get out in the field and hunt but I don't think I need a Field Trial dog. I think I'm being pretty realistic about my needs/wants in a dog. I think it would be awesome to have an amazing Field Trial dog, but I just don't have the time to commit to run them in tests etc, so it's not what I need.

I will still work the dog a bit every day (and send her to Angie for hunting school.) So, this litter could be a perfect fit for me. I want a female by the way. The dog would be 80% at home chilling with me and the wife (and maybe kids one day) and then 20% working on retrieving and hunting.

So, I guess my question is (it was kind of answered earlier)... Is $2k too much for a pup with limited bloodlines? And the male dog has never bred before, so how do we know what type of dogs his pups will be? Tioga had some litters earlier that were 2K but the bloodlines seemed much more hunt test/field trial related. Or I thought they were?? I know it's always some what of a crap shoot but I would be really disappointed if I spent 2K and the dog didn't take to hunt training, etc.

Angie, I know you are on this thread also, so I would love to hear your opinion as well!

My advice to both the above and the OP is to find your local trainer and go out and just watch dogs off the truck run. I don't care if you go to Angie's kennel, mine, or anyone else's you just need to see different dogs. I started suggesting this to people with the same wants as the OP and my experience has been that in most cases people end up really liking something completely different than what they originally stated.

One of the key things that I ask my clients is "How do you hunt?" If you run and gun every day of the season and expect a dog to pick up a three man limit every hunt then you need something totally different than a guy that hunts a handful of times a year on a private tank and is tickled to kill 3 or 4 birds.

By going out and watching a bunch of dogs work and talking to the trainer about them you get a chance to see what drive/temperament combination you really like and that gives a better idea of what pup would be best suited for you.

I joked in my first post on this thread but most people want a ton of drive and style at the line or in the blind but super calm at the house. You can absolutely have this. Its called a mature finished dog. Generally people who try to get a calm puppy are not satisfied with their drive. It is easier to put whoa into a dog than put go into them.

As I said before there are those that try to specifically breed for both traits but unicorns are expensive, even if they don't have a pedigree!

Not ever seeing the dogs work just based on accomplishments yes thats prolly way over priced compared to alot of the breedings out there. You can find alot of breedings with all the health clearences and accomplishments to validate the sire and dam.I wouldnt be scared of a breeding if it has field trial dogs in its pedigree. Just shows that the dogs have the trainablity to do the work. Go to the retrievertraining.net and look at the puppy classifieds. Alot of really nice breedings on there. Also rody best just listed a really nice breeding on his website today with the dam being master hunter thats amatuer trained and the sire That was the high point choc derby dog. I believe that breeding has all the health certs people look for. Also check out stonebrook retrievers they have some nice breedings also.
http://www.stonebrookretrievers.com/current-and-future-litters.html

$2,000 for a started dog maybe, Force fetch done, etc.

not trolling. If you do your homework and review pedigrees carefully, there are some great bloodlines out there for WAY less. Look at grandma and grandpa, look for titles, OFA, etc.

While the point is made that just a JH is nothing to get excited about. I will point out that George, the sire, is through the yard and will be running senior this spring. He will be one of the few CH/MH in the country when he's done training here. Yes Kate's pedigree is not spectacular but she's a proven producer and her puppy's are training nicely.

As to the price? I'm breeding what the market dictates. I can sell calm, tractable good looking puppies all day. FT/performance breedings not so much. They're too much dog on the average for the weekend warrior with a young family.

I'm also a lifetime resource for my puppy buyers. No question or situation is too trivial not to ask me.

Also I stand behind my puppies and will take them back at whatever age. I have had people bring back 4 and 5 year old dogs that I have rehomed. Life gets a little crazy sometimes and I want people to know they always have a place for their dog when they purchase a puppy from me.

I don't think you're going to find the above with a $600 puppy.

Angie

Thanks for the response Angie (and everyone else as well.) Just to be clear, I don't necessarily have a problem with the price, I was just curious about how you got to the price with few "titles" in the pedigrees. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have heard many wonderful things about Tioga and Angie and I have been referred to you guys from some acquaintances. I know there are many reputable breeders and trainers in Texas like Tony Marshall and such but Angie and Tioga happen to be the most convenient for me for where I live and having my trainer near me is very important. I could also never imagine giving a dog back after 6 months or 2 years or whatever. Poor puppies... but sometimes life gets in the way I guess...

It seems like the price comes from the fact that the sire does have the dual component of show and hunt test. You would be paying more because him and his parents have titles in both.

Could you find a dog to fulfill your needs for less? Yes.
But there are intangibles that you cannot put a price on such as the trust in the breeder and peace of mind.

Just make sure you go watch both dogs work and evaluate them. Also go to a hunt test and watch the trainers. You can learn alot when you can compare trainers side by side and see how there dogs compare. You can also look on entry express and see what the pass/ fail ratio is for the dogs. I like to look on there and see how the trainer did and what there pass /fail ratio is.

As for selling a puppy based on potential is just a selling gimmick. Anybody can say a dog is trying to get a title. I can say my son is gonna by a pro athlete. Its all selling strategies. I think to justify a dog they have to have validity behind it. Not saying the dogs maybe one day could be a MH/MNH/FC etc. just hard to say your hoping it will be that. Wonder how much puppies would be if it had titles

Actually the price is the same. My good MH female with a 2 qualifying reserve jams was bred to NAFC Tubbs and the price was the same as the George X Kate litter. 2 different markets.

As far as me falsely advertising the stud of the litter. That's not the case. You forget I'm a professional trainer/breeder. I'd be a fool to lie about the litter I'm selling. I would be shooting myself in the foot. Who does that?

Angie

I don't feel as though you're falsely advertising the litter. I'm certain they are amazing pups. (I know you were responding to someone else's critical post but I thought I would respond anyway). As mentioned before, I have had many recommendations for Tioga for a puppy and training and plan to get a pup from you someday. It was the Tubbs litter that had me confused with pricing I guess. I've been stalking your website for some time. So, in your opinion, was the Tubbs litter "field trial" ready and not for the common dog owner/weekend hunter? In other words would the Tubbs litter presumably have more puppies that are ready to compete and have more drive and be "too much dog" for the common man? And the puppies not be as "calm" in the house? And finally is this current litter more geared towards the people who want a great looking lab who also want a quality hunting dog?

I got a pup from Angie's Tubbs/Pepper litter a few months back. It was a performance breeding, but my pup is still very calm in the house. She'll just lay down beside us with a bone. Just have to exercise her a lot. This dog is serious about retrieving. Like nothing I have seen before (admittedly I haven't been around that many labs). She will go all day. She'll bring a ball to the window if she sees you through it from the back yard. I'm convinced it's all she thinks about.
She's not as good looking as George from the link above though (not that I care about that). She's more streamlined and smaller.

That's great to hear! Sounds like you got a good one! I loved that litter but just wasn't ready to pull the trigger at that time.

Caveat emptor! The referenced pedigree is fair at best on top and weak on the bottom.
Set aside field trial breedings, this breeding is neither a top-notch show breeding or hunt test breeding, much less a dual-purpose breeding. One may get a decent family/hunting dog, but $2k demands an outstanding family/hunting/hunt test/show dog. The Tioga name does not add value to a pup, titles in the pedigree do. A $2K pup should have highly titled parents and a solid pedigree. The best advice given was "go watch the sire and dam."

I bet they sell.

I always go by, What's the pup worth to me.
Don't really care what its worth to someone else.
Its me the pup has to impress, and live with for the next decade.

Angie does make a great point about the average guy not being equipped for a "hot" Field trial , even Hunt Test Dog

I was one of those guys back in 1987. I was just married and we wanted a "Black Lab". cause IMO they are the greatest dog EVER, IMO , not looking for 1 million disagreements.

I had NO idea what I was doing, this was back before we had the internet and all these GREAT forums to learn from.

SO, off I went to the Dallas Morning News classifieds. I found a gal in Tyler who bred her female , so her son could have a new duck dog.....right??? He went back to college and this gal was left with a litter she now had to get rid of, so she said, she was selling them for $500 but if I wanted one and would come to Tyler she would sell it for $250.

Remember I just wanted a "pet" . Too make a LONG story short, I came home with Lady Casey of Candlewood: Casey. I began to look for a trainer to help with basic obedience, I came across Gary Johnson at Tooth Acres Kennel in Farmers Branch TX. I had Casey with me, she was only a few months old. Gary looked at her Pedigree and his eyes widened and he said HMMMMM. We went out back with a pigeon wing started the "hey, hey pup"! through the wing up and the rest was history. Casey had Honcho blood, Candlewood blood and Trumarc blood, Some of you old timers will know these dogs well. After basic obedience Gary begged me to let him put Casey "on his truck" and let him train her and campaign her through field trials. All Professional Trainers are always looking for "THAT" special dog which might become a NFC, which makes the trainer quite popular (famous)well know, re; Danny Farmer, The Aycocks, etc.

Casey slept in bed with us, so her living at the kennel and being in a "box" on a truck all day was OUT. Gary helped us train Casey, some GREAT people, Dog people!!! Casey blew through her Junior and Senior titles, she won the Super Duper Singles in Alto Texas. This was a side game at hunt tests, where there would be a 300 yard and shorter "Mark" thrown, the dog was "called" and would be timed on how fast they could get to the bumper and back to the "line" Anyone who knows the Trumarc line, knows they are (were) ROCKET SHIPS and MARKING MACHINES.

Then came Casey's Master title....HUHH... Here is where my long drawn out point comes. Casey was "hot"!!! I would have to "burn" her (shock collar)in her crate before every run. When we were in the "holding blind" waiting to run, she would be going crazy. When the judges called her to the "line", she always beat me there. I would heal her, give her, her "line", tell her to SIT, SIT, SIT, then I would call for the test to start. The duck calls would start, Casey's azz would come up off the ground. First Bird would be shot, she would mark it and "creep" a bit, next mark would be shot, she would mark it and creep a bit more. Third mark would be marked and more creeping. At this time, she could be DQ'd . All this time, I can't talk to her, touch her, nothing... If the judges didn't call "dag" immediately after the 3rd mark, she would probably not be able to stand it anymore and "break," off she would go, kicking azz on the test, disqualified. I was mad and she was wondering why the heck we were heading back to the truck.

We never got her Master title, so I never bred her. She lived to be 14, Greatest pal ever. "HOT DOGS" are HELL to train. They are PERFECT in training but come the tests, Man it was tough.

I'm shopping for my third and last black lab, Millie The Mighty Dawg was second, same breeding, jeeeez. My next one will be like Angies......

SO be careful when buying high quality high strung blood. Be prepared to spend a TON of time training or spend a TON of money letting a pro do it but to me this takes the fun out of it cause the trainer keeps your dog for months, doggie cant go home with you and you "might" be able to go, hide behind a truck and watch YOUR dogs progress. Not my cup of tea.

Join a local club, LEARN as much as you can, these folks will help you. Just be prepared its time consuming and expensive, but OH IS IT WORTH IT??...HELL YES !!!

That's a great story.

Except the might be able yo go see your dog part.

Great story Buzzsaw. Same thing holds true in the English Pointer world. Most folks can't handle a high strung trial dog. I like one with fire in it. You can take a little out but you sure can't put it in 'em.

I will be having a really nice chocolate litter within the next six months. These pups will have crazy drive and retrieving desire, awesome looks, brains, and an off switch. You can PM me or email me for more information. This will be a three-peat breeding and the first two litters have been amazing.

Kamron
kamronhorn@yahoo.com

I've got a litter coming in a month. http://www.rocksolidpointinglabs.blogspot.com/