6, 6.5, and 7 MM - which for Long Range?

Now, i’m Not a LR shooter and don’t plan to start, but I do follow the discussions on the forum. So here’s the question. From what I think I understand, the best caliber is one of the 6.5’s, due to available BCs, recoil, etc. But now I read of folks going up to the 7mm cartridges or down to the 6mm cartridges. What has changed? Is it just the ongoing need for ‘something else’?

IMO is comes down to what the purpose of the rifle is going to be...

Steel/matches only? Steel with critters thrown in? If so, what?

“Best” depends on the intended use.

From a pure performance standard, higher ballistic coefficient and more velocity are “better,” but recoil and ability to hit the intended point of aim matter too.

7mm has the highest bc’s of the three, and the heavier weights, especially pushed by the bigger cases, provide more thump for hunting. For paper punching competition, less recoil is an advantage, so 6 and 6.5’s with 308’s case capacity are more tailored to the task.

Well, what i’ve heard for a few years is that BC rules and that velocity can be compensated by turret adjustment. Wouldn’t that still support use of 6.5s?

Surely a fellow can get some high BC 7mm bullets, but now recoil has a higher impact (no pun intended).

I’m not arguing for anything. I just have an inquiring mind.

Edit: looks like jeffbird answered my second statement before I finished it.

You have to remember, the higher the BC, the lower the wind drift.

"Muzzle Velocity gets you off the start line. Ballistic Coefficient gets you to the finish line" -Jason Garvey

NRA defines long range as 600-1000 yards. Unofficially "extreme range" is beyond 1000 yards. It depends on what game a guy is playing. If his shots are 600 and less, a fast 6mm is going to be great, because it spent less time in the wind. If a guy is playing 600-1000 yards, and recoil is a big factor due to positional shooting a 6mm or 6.5mm might work better for him. If a guy is playing 600-1400 yards, and he does not care about recoil, well that is where the 7mm will shine.

The 6 Dasher is the current Golden Boy of the PRS this caliber and other 6mm's are being used simply because of recoil. I'll keep using my 6.5x47 for club matches and hunting because I believe it and other 6.5 caliber cartridges are a great dual purpose match and hunting round. I would feel under gunned trying to take a 200+ lbs Mule deer with a 6 dasher .

Did u just quote yourself?!?!?

And the award for the most self absorbed member is.....
Drum roll....
FiremanJG

I am definitely not a "real" long range shooter,just a pretender. But as an observant engineer, I've actually concluded myself that
A. Everyo be is right when they say best then the ctieri for best really matters. And
B. It seems to me the best really depends on your approximate cartridge size. Because if raw bc and velocity is all that mattered then why not shoot a 6.5mm bullet with the world's highest bc out of a 50nbmg case? The logic of bc and velocity suggests it will out perform. But the realities start entering. Seems like there is a sweet spot for muzzle velocity and simplly going to a smaller bullet to get more velocity has its limits too.

Last year at The Heatstroke Open, I shot a friend's 6 X 47 shooting 105's @ 3000 fps MV. I had some issues with my 6.5 Creedmoor ammo the day before. Inside 800 yards the 6mm was nice. Outside 800 yards, it got blown all over the place. One would splash, I would make the correction, and the bullet would go somewhere else. Of course, the 6's do better with 115's, but that day turned me off to 6mm shooting past 800 yards. When it comes to that, I would much rather have the BC, and the bullet weight of a 6.5mm or a 7mm. Recoil is a non-issue to me.

Not self absorbed, you were supposed to laugh!

That's it.

I use the .308 Win as an example, very oftrn. The best performance I have got out of it is a 178 gr @ 2700 MV, on a 24" barrel. That's the leveling of BC and MV. Drop down in bullet weight, gain speed, lose BC. Increase BC, increase weight, lose speed. If we loaded the large BC 230 gr Berger Hybrid, we would lose so much velocity that it would hurt performance. In order to drive that large BC, heavy bullet properly, it will require more powder, such as a .300 Win Mag, .300 Norma Mag, 30 Nosler. Then, you've gained a significant amount of recoil. Depending on the goals, that might hurt what you are trying to do.

In my opinion, the non-Magnum short action cartridge that produces great velocity as well as bullet weight and BC is the 7mm-08 A.I. loaded with a 162 gr. I have one to hunt with now. I do not plan to compete with it, because I will lose brass, and nobody wants to lose A.I. brass.

Sometimes humor doesn't translate. I often try sarcasm and people thing I'm being serious.

On a serious note, everyone is getting azz whipped by people shoving 6.5s down their throats. People go out buy their first 6.5, become an expert and then proceed to constantly whip your azz with how great it is. Maybe people are moving more to 6mm and 7mm lately because many 6.5 are people so annoying. I own 2 6.5s that shoot 140 grain bullets at 2700 fps but I don't whip peoples azz with my superiority.

As has been said it comes down to your use of the round. There are sweet spots for each one, but does the sweet spot match up with your intended use?

I also think there is merit to the "something new" statement. Everyone has a 6.5 CM but I shoot a 6.75 TX Special and it is mo better.

Is the next new shiny object gonna be a 7mm PRC ???

Seems like more than a few guys are AI'ing 7-08's to get some more horsepower....no interest in a 280 sized round anywhere I've seen & the 284's rebated rim is apparently a potential problem for some folks....
7 WSM's & 7 RSAUMS' died with brass non existent and no interest anywhere to pay the Royalty's to make any, and the next stop mo bigger @ 7RMg's is old hat, better BC & heavier LR bullets notwithstanding.

New powders however, may make the venerable old 7x57 viable for a handloader in recent commercial actions, but the lack of strict Industry standards in chamber's and leade + the sheer numbers of ancient old '92 & '94 Mousers still in use could be a nitemare for a manufacturer's insurance will kill that idea in using the 7x57 case as a parent plus it takes a Long Action receiver...gonna be interesting to follow for sure.

My old M70 XTR is shooting cheap 140gr Privi's, I harvest brass from, at +/- moa's at deer killing distances out to 200 yards - as far as I'm gonna kill something anyway - so I am GTG so far and gonna sell the 7Rmg I picked up as being Not Necessary for my purposes....but will look for a 280 just cause it's be neat to drop one of the calibers on the bench down to just 2 in 6.5's & 7mm. The 270's I am most familiar with already handle that 280 job profile on critters admirably, with probably a lifetime at my usage rates of components on hand.

Ron

Scott: funny and I agree, I have 2 6.5 Creeds, but I'm a closet 7mm guy ever since I had my 7mm WSM, what a laser !!! Hummmmmm maybe I need another??????????????????????????????

Yall have to admit, Hornady knocked it out of the park with the 6.5 Creedmoor. They had a set of goals, and it has more than met those goals. A guy can walk in a big gun store, buy a rifle, buy Hornady ammo, put a good base, rings, and scope on it. Go to a long range somewhere, and be hitting targets at 1000 yards in no time. There just isn't a long list of chamberings that a guy can do that with.

Then there are those of us that nerd out. Always looking at BC, MV, ft/lbs, ES, SD, and we roll our own, allowing us to make something do what we want it to do.

The sky is the limit. Murica!

Fireman,

I agree. I just get tired of the scenario below.

Orignal poster- "I'm looking for a good load for my 7-08. I would like to use 162 AMAX. What do you recommend?"

About 5 postes in- "I recommend you sell your 7-08 and buy a 6.5 Creedmoor. You will thank me later."

Yup. Makes intelligent discussion nigh impossible at times. I'm all for the freedom to take little side trips within a thread for humor's sake or any other good reason...it can make for very interesting reading. But the "you're-doing-it-wrong-if-you're-not-doing-it-my-way" mentality and hard-sell agenda pushing are nothing but buzzkill.

Yep !!! marketing campaign champions, followed with the 6mm Creed, 6.5 PRC coming up , now the mini .22 PRS.

Yeah, that's just stupid advice, especially if a guy is a hand loader.

7mm-08 is an outstanding cartridge. And in some ways (for the hand loader) better than the 6.5 Creedmoor.

I'm not talking about marketing, Buzz. I'm talking about real life performance on the range, and in the hunting fields.

agree 100%

Whoa... whoa... whoa there big fella, don't start disparaging the 6mm Creed! It is the bomb and the bestest caliber bar none. Don't be a hater just 'cause you don't have one. Get a Tikka and top it with a Vortex and it will outshine those expensive customs. You'll thank me later.

BTW Buzz, are you shooting my Remmy 223 at JG's match again this year?

Hornady did convince people that their AMAX tips were melting so they could sell them the more expensive ELDM.

They do melt, but at something like 2950 fps MV and above.

After all this back and forth, I do believe that my question got answered. And it all made sense to my inquiring Engineering brain.

Now, on to Hornady...how do we KNOW that the plastic tips were melting. And was it just their plastic, or Nosler’s also? What independent tester proved the Tips were melting? Chuck Norris could catch one in his teeth, so maybe he needs to verify Hornady’s claims.

It is not about MV it is about time of flight, the longer the bullet flies the hotter it gets due to friction.

Supposedly they detected a decaying BC using a Lab Radar or something.

I believe they claimed Nolser's were melting too. Meanwhile, the hunting world continues to kill things with with Ballistic Tips and Accubonds.

That's not what Hornady said when Chad called them.

Big Doppler Radar.
Higher end than us mortals can afford.

I know for a fact they don't with a mv of 2800ish at 1k. I picked up several at my target.

Nope. They just cooled off before you could get to them.

^^Yup, they didn't leave fast enough to melt off.

I need someone down range to watch me splash a .22 cal 75 gr A-Max, and recover it. Out of my .22-250 they have an MV of 3200 fps.

definitely not knocking any calibers especially the 6mm creed.

are you introducing us to your new baby at Jason's?

and yes on my crappy little .233

my ELDs melted when I held the tip over a scented Christmas candle

Well that is what the guys in the basement range told me when I asked in person.

So I guess dee shooting them 1000 yards was not enough of a flight time. Looks like Hornady employees aren't all on the same page.

+2, and it's not even arguable.

Yeah, the melting tip campaign is laughable.

I debated getting some 80gr eld to try in my 22 creed at around 3400 plus but think the 90gr berger going that fast will be to tough to beat.

So I guess dee shooting them 1000 yards was not enough of a flight time. Looks like Hornady employees aren't all on the same page. [/quote]

To ring in the New Year I went to Hornady webpage and read the article of the ELD series. In summary it is a matter of high B.C. bullets .550 and up melting conventional tips due to aerodynamic heating experienced by retained velocity during flight time. Thus the reason we do not see .22 cal 55gr ELD bullets only the 80gr and the continued production of the .30 cal 168gr AMAX, these do not retain enough velocity over the flight time to melt.

If you want to read the whole thing.
https://www.hornady.com/heat-shield

To ring in the New Year I went to Hornady webpage and read the article of the ELD series. In summary it is a matter of high B.C. bullets .550 and up melting conventional tips due to aerodynamic heating experienced by retained velocity during flight time. Thus the reason we do not see .22 cal 55gr ELD bullets only the 80gr and the continued production of the .30 cal 168gr AMAX, these do not retain enough velocity over the flight time to melt.

If you want to read the whole thing.
https://www.hornady.com/heat-shield
[/quote]

I ran 162gr amax which was replaced by the eld m/x.

I ran 162gr amax which was replaced by the eld m/x. [/quote]

Dee do not know if you read the article but that bullet is discussed as one that did not exhibit excessive change in the drag curve due to melting tip, small variation, but I guess it was enough to warrant the shift.

I haven’t missed a shot on a game animal in a while, but if I do i’m gonna blame on the bullet tip melting.

Dee do not know if you read the article but that bullet is discussed as one that did not exhibit excessive change in the drag curve due to melting tip, small variation, but I guess it was enough to warrant the shift.[/quote]

Read it.
Looks like whomever told Chad it required a certain MV was wrong. The article mentions a 50 gr V-Max at 3700 fps having no change.

Dee do not know if you read the article but that bullet is discussed as one that did not exhibit excessive change in the drag curve due to melting tip, small variation, but I guess it was enough to warrant the shift. [/quote]

Haven't read it in a good while but if tof is a factor I should have experienced it. Was running them fairly slow at times down to 2600fps. Also have noticed zero difference of any kind between 162gr Amax and the 162gr ELDM.

If you remember a couple of years ago I said, once I find some 162 A-Max I'm buying a couple thousand. Well, I did, and still have a good supply. I have no intention of selling them to replace them with ELD-M or ELD-X. I'll just shoot them, then move over.

I still got at least 300 amax. Going to experiment with 150gr eldx when the new tube gets spun up.

I've got a box of those as well. I've got 50 pieces of 7mm-08 A.I. brass loaded with 162's. When those get shot, the brass will get cleaned, and annealed. I'll see what I see on how they shoot, then decide with bullet to commit to, for that rifle, 162's at 2640 fps, or the 150's at ???

I still like shooting my lever-action 30/30 Creedmore....hey I think it's value just went up.