.308 Match bullet for whitetails?

I refrain from using Sierra Match bullets for hunting, but due to its accuracy and penetration on non AR steel but I always used hunting bullets and feel comfortable with them. I like your opinions on using Sierra Match bullets for deer and hogs. I always shoot behind the crease of the shoulder for lung shots to prevent meat damage. Here is an article I read about Sierra's for hunting with a .308

http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-gear/tactical-military-arms-blog/match-ammo-for-hunting

The best hunting bullets have been refined over many decades, based on experience. Call me a luddite, backwoods, stuffy, whatever---but I see this idea as being very regressive.

I know many use match bullets for hunting and like them. But a match bullet is designed and built with NO consideratin given to terminal performance.

IMO, good (CONSISTENT!) terminal performance trumps accuracy within reason. IOW, I'd rather have a good hunting bullet, designed for the game and approprite terminal velocity, that shoots 1.5" groups, than a match bullet that shoots 1/2" groups.

It just makes sense to me to use products which were designed and manufactured with the end use parameters considered.

PS I predict that this will be a long thread

You can drive a nail with a rock or a hammer. My experience is the SMK is a rock for the type of shot you describe. I have used the SMK and if you hit them in the neck breaking the spine yes dramatic but then again almost any bullet at reasonable speed will ofer same result. My one experience matching your shooting style: 407 yards 308 168 SMK behind shoulder, the result was an ice pick like wound channel through both lungs. He walked off the Sendro into the brush and while waiting a few minutes before going down he walked out again head down and fell over dead. I assume the he was standing in the brush for those few min bleeding into his lungs lacking O2 then made it back to the Sendero. For behind the shoulder shot it is not my first choice regardless of distance.

Since he specifically asked about whitetail...at what sort of distance would it take before a head shot with a Sierra match King would NOT take it down instantly?

OP said he shoots behind shoulder on WT.

Funny I googled this yesterday. Some like SMK but most were against it. The ones against hadn't tried it for the most part.
For me, I'm sticking with hunting bullets. I don't get to shoot deer very often so when I do, I want the best hunting bullet I happen to have.
Game kings are good as are many others so as long as I'm MOD I'm good.
I'm currently loading Hornady interlocks in 308 but I've had succes with Sierra Game King.

I've shot more than 100 animals with 175 SMK's from a 308 in the last ten years and they remain my first choice, though I have been using Barnes a lot in the last couple of years because they tear up less meat.

I am limiting my comments specifically to the 308 / 175 SMK combo, not others. I could care less what Uncle Fester did with a different combo.

The 175 SMK was designed specifically for terminal performance out of a 308, not a thing to do with target shooting.

Like all bullet and rifle combos, there is an optimum shot placement.

The 175 SMK tends to tumble through and provide deep penetration with significant wound channels from the tumbling usually exiting if the animal is inside of 200 yards.

If you like lung shots, go with a soft rapidly expanding bullet such as an Amax, Ballistic Tip, or Partition.

Lung shots generally do not result in DRT results. The animal is going to run 50 - 100 yards before running out of oxygenated blood. In an open area that is no big deal. In the brush country, that is a nightmare.

SMK's, Barnes, E-tips and other bullets are better for high shoulder, or quartering through between the shoulders, where there is more bone and muscle to provide resistance and thus energy transference.

Optimal shot placement with 308 175 SMK - and most other combos for that matter.









Exit wound of a 308/175 SMK with a high shoulder shot.



Note the large hole through the spine - easy tracking job.



I've posted this many times, but made it to show the 308/175 SMK in action.



308 with the Amax

That is incorrect. The .308 175 Sierra Match King was designed specifically for the US Army sniper application to improve long range terminal performance of the M21 and the USMC's M40A1 over the 168 SMK, which had been in use previously.

The Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of bullets than expand easily or flatten in the body. So both Sierra and Hornady include disclaimers that the Amax and SMK bullets are not recommended for hunting.

They have legal opinions that "match" ammo is legal, whereas, "hunting" ammo would not be.

Hornady used to recommend the Amax for light skinned game, until they received a government contract for them to be loaded for military application.

I'll see if I can dig up an older Hornady manual.

Bergers are another "match" bullet. If they have a flaw is that they are too prone to fragment and create massive damage.

But at the end of the analysis, shot placement is paramount above all other factors. Deer and pigs are not bullet proof. Hit them in the brain, spine, or high shoulders, and they will drop where they stand with any bullet. Shoot them in the lungs, and they are more likely to go wander off a bit.

Directly copied off Sierra's website:

MatchKing Bullets: This is the classification for Sierra's pre-eminent target bullets. The driving motivation for the design of each MatchKing bullet is accuracy. These bullets have very thin jackets drawn to an exacting concentricity standard of 0.0003 in maximum variation, and their weight is held to within ± 0.3 grain. All MatchKing have a hollow point design with a very small meplat for high ballistic coefficient. The majority of these bullets have a boat tail shape to further minimize drag and improve ballistic coefficient. They are manufactured to the very highest quality standards. Their accuracy has been acclaimed worldwide, and they have been used to win more target competitions than all target bullets from other manufacturers combined. While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications.

So now I expect to be told that I cannot quote Sierra's website because you have preemptively said so.

Did you read what I wrote?

I'll pull out the hard copy of a Sierra Manual when I am home later which includes some interesting info not on the current version of the website, Hornady's too.

When the government is involved, things are not always what they seem.

I've shot 2 bucks with 168 smk .308

One at 100 the other 68 yds

Shot through lungs
Exit wound size of baseball
Lots of blood
Explosive internal damage , massive blood pool
Lots of little fragments internally

Both ran about 20 yds

I would use it if I don't have Partition available

I know it can be done and successfully done but I wouldn't do it myself.

Sierra Match King next to a Sierra Game King. hmmm.............

If I recall my history right the US did not sign on to the 1899 Hague Document they abided by it for awhile but never signed it. There were subsequent articles signed by US relating use of ammunition inflicting undo harm. Attorneys for the military have stated that SMK bullets are designed for accuracy not fragmentation and exhibit similar characteristics to FMJ.

The OP originally asked about behind shoulder shots on WT to avoid meat damage and as I said in my original 2 cents the bullet is not optimal for that kind of shot. It can be done and I have done it just better tool for that situation. If you are going to break shoulders and spines different ball game you can use SMK to great effect as you have demonstrated.

Like I said early on in this thread, hunting bullets went through changes and development over time based on lessons learned. The classic bullet performance model asks the bullet to be accurate, to hold together yet expand moderately, and penetrate straight and deep. This is what has brought us to the TTSX, Accubonds, and others. I guess some guys just never read much or paid attention to the conventional wisdom.

I'll never say that such-and-such bullet won't kill---that's crazy talk. I don't know of any metallic bullet that will not kill, so they ALL will kill. But that does not make ALL of them a good choice for hunting. I'd much rather choose my bullet for top terminal performance according to the classic bullet performance paradigm.

RR, kind of agree with some of your thinking. Actually trying different bullets, the only one I that I have seen that did not penetrate sufficiently to cause a lethal wound was a 25 cal Ballistic Tip five or six years ago. Nosler has thickened the jackets on the BT's and now they seem to work well. Everything else, stuff falls over dead with good shot placement. Lung shots are deadly, they just can run a ways, which in the brush country can be a problem. In my very first post, I noted that for lung shots, I did not recommend the SMK, but the Amax, BT, Partition or some other soft bullet. Conversely, the Amaxes are so soft they often do not exit on a large South Texas buck, where a SMK will punch through all the way like a Barnes or Partition from a 308. Here's a beer to you, did not mean to get crossways with you.

I've gone to using Barnes more and more for hunting because they cause less damage to the meat than the SMK, which can really tear things up at closer ranges.

Here is where the Sierra manual says the 175 SMK was developed specifically for the sniper application, not target shooting. There has been lots written on the details of the program that developed the 175 SMK with Dr. Martin Fackler assisting the Army to improve terminal performance. Again, my comments are specific to the 308 175 SMK, not the others SMK's.




Hornady's manual, 6th edition, recommendation of the Amax for hunting thin skinned game before they had a government contract. Now they seem to go back and forth on their official position.

No experience with SMK, but I can tell you I have used a 168 Amax for lung shot and the results were devastating. Deer was dead before it hit the ground. Upon dressing, found that it had liquified the entire lung cavity. No exaggeration, no pieces of lung larger than quarter size was left.

We ain't crossways no way, no how Jeff. If I came across agitated, I sure didn't mean to.

I see what you're saying about the MK being developed for military purposes from the get go. Now, I've never shot at anyone or been shot at myself but I do think the terminal performance requirements for punching a human's ticket would vary considerably from the requirements for taking lesser animals. I don't think our snipers care if the enemy general they just shot in the chest runs off into the weeds. I don't think they field dress them.


Since I've never even shot a round using the MK that I can recall, I can't comment on its terminal performance, only the design and its stated purpose. But, I have some experience with Partitions (and hope to score with my .35 Whelen one of these days---it's on Accubonds) and I am confident that it will work for any shot I can get.

That's just my two cents on it. And with that said...
back at ya!

From everything that I've read each match bullet is a law unto itself when it comes to use on big game. It seems clear that some of the bullets do fairly well, at least for certain applications, and selecting a bullet / velocity combo with a well known performance profile is a reasonable and ethical option. That out of the way, it's equally clear that the majority of match bullets either expand too quickly or not quickly enough for reliable and predictable use on big game.

So ... how lucky do you feel?

Just move to the Berger match hunting bullet..

I was loading and hunting with smk' for a few years with great success. Never recovered anything but shrapnel and an occasional un wrapped jacket with the base still attached. 6 or 7 years ago I switched to the Berger VLD. Match grade hunting bullet. Better accuracy and speed than the SMK in my rifle. Though its claim is for hunting or target the end result of the bullet is the same. Massive wound Chanel and fragmentation. Never found enough of the bullet in one piece to weigh. Both are very effective in killing deer, shoulder shots or lung shots have left massive blood trails and the deer and pigs drop quickly.
168gr in my 308
130gr in my 270

In my case I shoot more targets than animals, so I prefer to only be sighted for one bullet so I use Hornady AMAX...168 grain. I'll agree its devastating on flesh but I've never had to chase anything though the woods. Just be mindful when choosing where to put the shot.

When using match grade bullets heavier would be better, but in my case the rifle shoots so dang well with 168s. I waiting to see if Hornady will expand the ELD-X line to include 168 grain. Also, I'm new to reloading and haven't really tried other brands yet. So there's my $.02

Never meant to stir up a hornet's nest between a couple of guys on here. I agree its more ethical and common sense to use a more well constructed bullet for the type of hunting you do. Heck I was not happy when I used a 140 Nosler BT out of a 7 STW ( 3475 fps)on a quartering shot on a whitetail a decade ago that the bullet just blew up on hide and opened up its side that it ran a quarter mile before I found him laying under a tree. Never used BT again for the STW. I have a couple of hunting bullets in 168 grain in mind that I want to use for the .308 this fall. Cheers

I have also taken MANY game with a 190 SMK out of a 300 WM when I shot that bullet. It worked fine. But, the main issue I see with a SMK is the unknown you will have in bullet expansion. I have seen some ice pick through (not expand), and I've seen some have dramatic expansion and cause crazy large wound channels destroying lots of meat.

Mostly, I'd say shot placement is key! If you shoot a 175 SMK the most and can make a perfect shot on game, then use it. Would I rather shoot a dedicated hunting bullet, yes. Will a SMK work, yes! I also would agree that I'd rather have an A-max for dual purpose use for targeting and hunting.

Also, you need to understand WHY Sierra wold not promote their SMK as a hunting bullet. The 175 SMK was developed in compliance with NATO regs on bullets used for the military. These bullets can NOT be hunting bullets. So, by default, Sierra can not promote these bullets as hunting bullets, and use in the military rounds, even though they should work fine as a hunting bullet.

It's the same ol conversation year after year about using SMK as a hunting bullet. I say run what you shoot well in your rifle, and work on good shot placement.

I guess it boils down to what a guy looks for and wants to accept in bullet performance. To me, this is a disqualifier.

YMMV!

I'm with RiverRider. Hunt with a hunting bullet that was designed to be a hunting bullet. How complicated is that concept?

I hunt with boat tail hollow points in my 243 and 22-250, hunting bullets as per the box label.
In my 308 I use Winchester 168gr Match Grade, also boat tail hollow points, no difference.
I have quickly killed sika, oryx, gemsbok, whitetail, axis, red stag, etc. And not just one or two, I hunt year round. And I have dropped all of them as quickly as I have ever seen an animal killed by any other caliber or projectile.

I know some people have also posted good success with Lapua Scenars. I'm in the use a hunting bullet camp but I rarely buy target bullets and use hunting bullets to punch paper most of the time as well.

I've had fantastic results with both Sierra Pro Hunters and Game Kings. For my purposes they work just as they should. Hornady cup and core bullets have worked very well too.

I'm cheap. Match rounds are considerably more $$ per round.

Me too.

I have found no better performer on game than a partition. They are boringly consistent. They are more than accurate enough for my purposes and they cover all my hunting bases. They expand readily on soft tissue and hold together on heavy bone. As far as I am concerned they are the be all end all at this point.

They do look similar, but The HPBT GameKing appears to have a little thicker jacket. It also has a larger HP with skives (SP?) to enhance expansion. Plus... the picture, of course, doesn't show the alloy of the jacket or the core.

According the Sierra literature that I have read, the HPBTGKs were developed by Sierra as a hunting bullet because folks were using the MKs for hunting, So Sierra decided to produce a bullet providing MK accuracy with good terminal performance.

Not tryng to pic a fight. Just making an observation.

I've always been a proponent of using hunting bullets for game, but this year my 308 will be loaded with 168 Amax's. Why? Because they are stupid accurate out of my rifle. For my other rifles, I'll stick to conventional hunting ammo.

Before going to bed last night ( was bored ), I had decided on 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips for deer season so I warmed up the scales and prepped 12 pieces of Lapua brass with Fed 210 and filled with three round charges of 42.7, 43.1, 43.5 and 43.9 grains of Varget. Seated .020 off the lands to fit the magazine of the Crusader. This morning I hit the range and wind was pretty calm. Sucks when I prepped the Oehler to check SD/ ES and the stupid battery went dead. So the first 3 three round groups varied from .6 to .4 and last charge of 43.9 printed a nice group. When shooting the last round, it drifted a little to the right when a little 10 -12 mph draft hit from the west. Book and box closed.

http://imgur.com/a/q5wp3

Soon I will be doing a load development with 168 Bergers and 175 Sierra Matchkings for paper punching, pretty sure the loads are easy to find with Varget and IMR-4064. Cheers

I've been using match bullets for a good while and never had an issue with them. Then again I take high probability shots. I have no reservations using a match bullet on wt.